[Beachryan]

I guess it comes down to the bar you set for him. If you measure him against Rio, Ramos, Pique, Terry etc he's obviously nowhere near. If you him against Mustafi, Cahill, Lovren, Jones he looks okay.

But if we have actual ambition thats just not good enough for our lead CB. He's been personally responsible for numerous goals this season, and has marshalled a team extremely prone to conceding from set pieces.

Worth remembering if De Gea performed in line with expectations we would have conceded 14 more goals in just the league.

I've watched him since he came and nothing has changed. He is athletic but prone to losing his man, not aggressive but still makes poor decisions and his distribution is pub level.

 

[el3mel]

I guess it comes down to the bar you set for him. If you measure him against Rio, Ramos, Pique, Terry etc he's obviously nowhere near. If you him against Mustafi, Cahill, Lovren, Jones he looks okay.

But if we have actual ambition thats just not good enough for our lead CB. He's been personally responsible for numerous goals this season, and has marshalled a team extremely prone to conceding from set pieces.

Worth remembering if De Gea performed in line with expectations we would have conceded 14 more goals in just the league.

I've watched him since he came and nothing has changed. He is athletic but prone to losing his man, not aggressive but still makes poor decisions and his distribution is pub level.

Nearly my opinion on him. He's a good defender, not a bad one actually. However there's no doubt we can do better than him or have a more complete CB than him.

 

[Oldyella]

Interested in who this world class cb we are picking up will be given the money we need to spend in other positions.

 

[Loublaze]

Nearly my opinion on him. He's a good defender, not a bad one actually. However there's no doubt we can do better than him or have a more complete CB than him.

Which available and more complete CB at this level should we go for this summer in your opinion?

 

[el3mel]

Which available and more complete CB at this level should we go for this summer in your opinion?

Manolas.

 

[arnie_ni]

Manolas.

And who else
If you want smalling out you need 2 cbs, not 1

 

[Rossa]

I’m bringing it up because this is a thread about his performance. Which mainly involved being bullied by Rondon. It is allowed to discuss player performances in the dedicated threads, right?

As it happens, his performance had absolutely no bearing on the result. Rondon wasn’t involved in the goal and it’s not Smalling’s fault our attacking football was shite.

Smalling is at his best when he is a little more aggressive than he was against Rondon. However, considering that West Brom has scored, and indeed did score, the majority of their goals on set pieces, I can only assume that Smalling was instructed not to be too agressive and rather let Rondon take the ball only to not let him get anywhere with hit, which worked. It was hardly Smalling's fault that Matic can't defend in his own box and instead gifted West Brom with an amazing assist. Funnily enough, it was Lukaku who lost his man. Those two really should stay far away from their own box.

Sorry for quoting an old post, I just disagree that he was bullied by Rondon as he really wasn't. Smalling stood off him more than he usually does. When they had proper physical duels, Smalling was at least his match.

 

[Rossa]

And who else
If you want smalling out you need 2 cbs, not 1

How does that mathematically make sense? We have Rojo, Jones, Smaling, Bailly as first choice options, and then we have Tuanzebe, TFM and possibly Blind as back-up. If anything, we have too many centre back options. If you sell Smalling, you bring in another first team candidate, not two. That makes no sense, mate. Manolas and Bailly would be a very interesting pairing.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Smalling is at his best when he is a little more aggressive than he was against Rondon. However, considering that West Brom has scored, and indeed did score, the majority of their goals on set pieces, I can only assume that Smalling was instructed not to be too agressive and rather let Rondon take the ball only to not let him get anywhere with hit, which worked. It was hardly Smalling's fault that Matic can't defend in his own box and instead gifted West Brom with an amazing assist. Funnily enough, it was Lukaku who lost his man. Those two really should stay far away from their own box.

Sorry for quoting an old post, I just disagree that he was bullied by Rondon as he really wasn't. Smalling stood off him more than he usually does. When they had proper physical duels, Smalling was at least his match.

There were even points in duels where Rondon ended up on the deck after going up for a challenge with Smalling and Smalling just overpowered him. There was even a sprint between the two which Smalling easily won and just held off Rondon with one hand so I have no idea where this idea that Rondon dominated Smalling has come from. Honestly think people just look for excuses now or see 1 thing and that is all they focus on.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

I guess it comes down to the bar you set for him. If you measure him against Rio, Ramos, Pique, Terry etc he's obviously nowhere near. If you him against Mustafi, Cahill, Lovren, Jones he looks okay.

But if we have actual ambition thats just not good enough for our lead CB. He's been personally responsible for numerous goals this season, and has marshalled a team extremely prone to conceding from set pieces.

Worth remembering if De Gea performed in line with expectations we would have conceded 14 more goals in just the league.

I've watched him since he came and nothing has changed. He is athletic but prone to losing his man, not aggressive but still makes poor decisions and his distribution is pub level.

How many goals has he cost us this season? And which ones?

 

[Rossa]

There were even points in duels where Rondon ended up on the deck after going up for a challenge with Smalling and Smalling just overpowered him. There was even a sprint between the two which Smalling easily won and just held off Rondon with one hand so I have no idea where this idea that Rondon dominated Smalling has come from. Honestly think people just look for excuses now or see 1 thing and that is all they focus on.

I remember the sprint as well - it was funny because at first Smalling went through the gears and looked genuinly surprised that Rondon was nowhere close even. In the first half, in particular, Smalling seemed to dominate Rondon, not the other way around, but I do believe he was instructed to avoid giving away free kicks, which was probably wise.

 

[Rossa]

I guess it comes down to the bar you set for him. If you measure him against Rio, Ramos, Pique, Terry etc he's obviously nowhere near. If you him against Mustafi, Cahill, Lovren, Jones he looks okay.

But if we have actual ambition thats just not good enough for our lead CB. He's been personally responsible for numerous goals this season, and has marshalled a team extremely prone to conceding from set pieces.

Worth remembering if De Gea performed in line with expectations we would have conceded 14 more goals in just the league.

I've watched him since he came and nothing has changed. He is athletic but prone to losing his man, not aggressive but still makes poor decisions and his distribution is pub level.

That bolded part is really RAWKish. If DDG had been better with his feet, I can recall at least twice where we conceded goals because of his poor distribution. I can also recall a few times that we conceded because DDG didn't come off his line - twice in one match, where Smalling was blamed. It is also baffling that you think that Courtouis would not save ANY of those 14 attempts at goal, for instance. But yes, DDG's god-like goalkeeping does flatter our defensive record a little bit. That being said, I think our other defenders are more directly to blame for individual goals than Smalling is.

 

[SillyUsername]

How many goals has he cost us this season? And which ones?

My favourite Smalling moment was when he was booked for diving in his own half because he wasn't good enough to control the ball properly which cost us the game vs Newcastle.

 

[MadDogg]

How does that mathematically make sense? We have Rojo, Jones, Smaling, Bailly as first choice options, and then we have Tuanzebe, TFM and possibly Blind as back-up. If anything, we have too many centre back options. If you sell Smalling, you bring in another first team candidate, not two. That makes no sense, mate. Manolas and Bailly would be a very interesting pairing.

Smalling plays far more than any of those other options. It wouldn't surprise me if Bailly gets a chance to stake a claim at first choice, but ultimately at the end of the season there would be a strong probability that Smalling plus the new guy would have played the most games because not one of all those other options has proven to be remotely reliable. There's just no way in hell Smalling gets sold ahead of the likes of Jones and Rojo unless he actually asks to be sold (which is very unlikely to happen). Hence why anybody who wants Smalling out has to also want two new central defenders in, not just one.

My favourite Smalling moment was when he was booked for diving in his own half because he wasn't good enough to control the ball properly which cost us the game vs Newcastle.

A random free kick near the half way line. Ultimately no real difference than any of the other fouls that are given away in that position every match. It was the three players just standing around not bothering to actually defend the free kick which cost us the goal far more.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

My favourite Smalling moment was when he was booked for diving in his own half because he wasn't good enough to control the ball properly which cost us the game vs Newcastle.

Hold up... so a free kick which was given away closer to the halfway line than our box which then Pogba didn’t even bother challenging for the first header, Matic doing nothing, Valencia ball watching and Lukaku/Lingard letting Matt Ritchie have a free run in to our box to get on a great touch from Perres. Yet your memeory is that even tho there was 25 minutes left in the game and that there were 3 incidents to stop the goal from that original Smalling free kick which to reiterate was closer to the halfway line than our box is all Smalling fault?

Some people honestly..

Also control the ball properly. He dances past one Newcastle player and sees Shelley coming in at him expecting the contact. He is still in control of the ball but he tries what we see from a lot of players which is to anticipate the contact and go down.

 

[el3mel]

And who else
If you want smalling out you need 2 cbs, not 1

Didn't say I need Smalling out. I think you need to read first.

 

[Beachryan]

That bolded part is really RAWKish. If DDG had been better with his feet, I can recall at least twice where we conceded goals because of his poor distribution. I can also recall a few times that we conceded because DDG didn't come off his line - twice in one match, where Smalling was blamed. It is also baffling that you think that Courtouis would not save ANY of those 14 attempts at goal, for instance. But yes, DDG's god-like goalkeeping does flatter our defensive record a little bit. That being said, I think our other defenders are more directly to blame for individual goals than Smalling is.

Can't be bothered to get into it, but thats not how xG works.

Across a large enough sample, we should concede more goals given the chances we're giving away. And we will revert to the mean at some point, because it's how life works. Anecdotal version: Sterling scores one of his glut of chances last week, we lose.

And before you cite an example of us missing and thus football: the whole point of xG is balancing that out. We create less than the other top 6, and we give away absolutely loads more chances.

 

[Rossa]

Can't be bothered to get into it, but thats not how xG works.

Across a large enough sample, we should concede more goals given the chances we're giving away. And we will revert to the mean at some point, because it's how life works. Anecdotal version: Sterling scores one of his glut of chances last week, we lose.

And before you cite an example of us missing and thus football: the whole point of xG is balancing that out. We create less than the other top 6, and we give away absolutely loads more chances.

I like stats, but that whole xG thing is really tiresome.

My point is that yes, no doubt has DDG made some brilliant saves that very few other goalies would save. However, Foster made one for WBA that very few would save as well. I think I recall Solskjær saying that only once or twice did a goalie save a certain goal. DDG has saved more than that. However, that stat does not take into account the fact that we also concede some goals due to him not coming off the line, and even a couple as a direct result of poor kicking. the 14 saves you refer to are all reaction saves on the line, which he is the best in the world at.

It's like when Liverpool supporters claimed one season that if they had scored all of their chances when they hit the post, which was more than any other team in the league, that would mean they would have won the league. They failed to mention that United, who finished first, had two shots less that hit the post. Likewise, you can only assume that no other goalie would make any of those 14 saves, but that is highly unlikely if you watch other top class goalies.

Of course we lose if Sterling scores one of his many chances - but it wasn't down to us that he didn't score. It was down to him. Also, there are many chances registered that are not nailed on goals. Last season, Valencia finished more crosses than any other player in the PL; how many United supporters would say his crossing was more accurate than say KDB?

 

[Rossa]

Smalling plays far more than any of those other options. It wouldn't surprise me if Bailly gets a chance to stake a claim at first choice, but ultimately at the end of the season there would be a strong probability that Smalling plus the new guy would have played the most games because not one of all those other options has proven to be remotely reliable. There's just no way in hell Smalling gets sold ahead of the likes of Jones and Rojo unless he actually asks to be sold (which is very unlikely to happen). Hence why anybody who wants Smalling out has to also want two new central defenders in, not just one.


A random free kick near the half way line. Ultimately no real difference than any of the other fouls that are given away in that position every match. It was the three players just standing around not bothering to actually defend the free kick which cost us the goal far more.

Well, that depends. If the new guy is very rarely injured, like Smalling these days, he would directly replace Smalling, and there would be no need for a second centre back. Lots of ifs. I think Tuanzebe is ready to step up, also a big if.

That second paragraph - I agree completely. Ridiculous to blame Smalling for that goal. It was similar to when people blamed Evra for blocking crosses that led to corners that led to goals.

 

[MadDogg]

Well, that depends. If the new guy is very rarely injured, like Smalling these days, he would directly replace Smalling, and there would be no need for a second centre back. Lots of ifs. I think Tuanzebe is ready to step up, also a big if.

Well no, because we need two reliable guys back there. We'd end up with the new guy and Smalling together unless one of the others can both outperform him (which despite what the majority of people on the forum seem to think is much easier said than done) and also be as reliable (which so far none have been even close to doing). The only one I can see the potential in doing so is Bailly, but if I had to put money on it I'd still bet on Smalling. As much as I like Bailly and hope he becomes consistent in the long run, I don't have faith in it happening yet.

Like I keep saying, unless Smalling expressly asks to be sold, I consider it a 100% guarantee that Jones and Rojo would be sold before him. It just makes no sense whatsoever to do otherwise. They are no better than him, don't have the aerial ability that he has to combat top opposition headers, and can never be trusted to stay fit.

I wouldn't be surprised if none of them are sold. We have more important areas to strengthen (fullbacks and midfield), so we may stick with what we have and go with Smalling plus whoever is fit and in best form again. Give them the chance for somebody to step up and truly cement the spot. Tuanzebe I think will be on loan again next season, this time in the PL (I think the plan is to hope Villa will get a promotion and he'll be there again).

 

[SillyUsername]

Hold up... so a free kick which was given away closer to the halfway line than our box which then Pogba didn’t even bother challenging for the first header, Matic doing nothing, Valencia ball watching and Lukaku/Lingard letting Matt Ritchie have a free run in to our box to get on a great touch from Perres. Yet your memeory is that even tho there was 25 minutes left in the game and that there were 3 incidents to stop the goal from that original Smalling free kick which to reiterate was closer to the halfway line than our box is all Smalling fault?

Seeing a Manchester United player dive in his own half because he has to do something other than pass the ball sideways or backwards with his right foot does tend to stick out in the memory, especially when the opposing team go on to score from the resulting free kick, regardless of who may or may not have been at fault in the box thereafter.

Also control the ball properly. He dances past one Newcastle player and sees Shelley coming in at him expecting the contact. He is still in control of the ball but he tries what we see from a lot of players which is to anticipate the contact and go down.

I think you need to watch the clip again.



Dances is certainly an interesting choice of words. The only parallel I can see with dancing in that clip would be a drunken dad with his shoelaces untied. When you say "he is still in control of the ball" that is clearly not the case. He blasts the ball 10 yards ahead of himself and it's obviously going to a Newcastle player. When it dawns on him that he's made a mistake, he tries to buy a foul but ends up making a fool of himself.

 

[Rossa]

Well no, because we need two reliable guys back there. We'd end up with the new guy and Smalling together unless one of the others can both outperform him (which despite what the majority of people on the forum seem to think is much easier said than done) and also be as reliable (which so far none have been even close to doing). The only one I can see the potential in doing so is Bailly, but if I had to put money on it I'd still bet on Smalling. As much as I like Bailly and hope he becomes consistent in the long run, I don't have faith in it happening yet.

Like I keep saying, unless Smalling expressly asks to be sold, I consider it a 100% guarantee that Jones and Rojo would be sold before him. It just makes no sense whatsoever to do otherwise. They are no better than him, don't have the aerial ability that he has to combat top opposition headers, and can never be trusted to stay fit.

I wouldn't be surprised if none of them are sold. We have more important areas to strengthen (fullbacks and midfield), so we may stick with what we have and go with Smalling plus whoever is fit and in best form again. Give them the chance for somebody to step up and truly cement the spot. Tuanzebe I think will be on loan again next season, this time in the PL (I think the plan is to hope Villa will get a promotion and he'll be there again).

I agree with this. I think it would be a mistake to sell Smalling at this point. I'm not convinced that by selling him you would need to CBs. I don't think we should invest in new centre backs, however. I think other parts of the pitch are more urgent to improve.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Seeing a Manchester United player dive in his own half because he has to do something other than pass the ball sideways or backwards with his right foot does tend to stick out in the memory, especially when the opposing team go on to score from the resulting free kick, regardless of who may or may not have been at fault in the box thereafter.



I think you need to watch the clip again.



Dances is certainly an interesting choice of words. The only parallel I can see with dancing in that clip would be a drunken dad with his shoelaces untied. When you say "he is still in control of the ball" that is clearly not the case. He blasts the ball 10 yards ahead of himself and it's obviously going to a Newcastle player. When it dawns on him that he's made a mistake, he tries to buy a foul but ends up making a fool of himself.

I think you’re stretching blaming him for this goal. As there is a lot that happens between his dive and the goal. Also players dive all the time in their own half to buy free kicks. Or I should say go down at the slightest touch. Which is what Smalling is expecting he just makes a pigs ear of it.
Dancing might be the wrong use but he’s gone passed one then the 2nd touch I would presume he has already seen Groot coming.
Although Bailly, Jones, Rojo, Matic, Lukaku, DeGea have all made costly mistakes and yet they don’t seem to get rinsed out as much.

I’m still waiting to hear the list of “goals he’s cost us” from @Beachryan

 

[SteveW]

I think you’re stretching blaming him for this goal. As there is a lot that happens between his dive and the goal. Also players dive all the time in their own half to buy free kicks. Or I should say go down at the slightest touch. Which is what Smalling is expecting he just makes a pigs ear of it.
Dancing might be the wrong use but he’s gone passed one then the 2nd touch I would presume he has already seen Groot coming.
Although Bailly, Jones, Rojo, Matic, Lukaku, DeGea have all made costly mistakes and yet they don’t seem to get rinsed out as much.

I’m still waiting to hear the list of “goals he’s cost us” from @Beachryan

It's ridiculous. I've had this debate. People try to blame him for this goal but in reality he was no more culpable than any player who gives away a free kick around the middle of the field. Another one they come up with his a goal conceded against Leicester when he was clearly injured. Other than that not much. Lindelof was pretty much causing a goal every game for a while there but escapes. Jones and Bailly have gone as far as actually slice balls into their own net and also escape.

It's lazy people judging a player by how he looks as opposed to how he actually plays. He's the only one we can currently rely on to actually defend at present.

 

[Loublaze]

I’m still waiting to hear the list of “goals he’s cost us” from @Beachryan

I'd like to see this mystical list as well.

Smalling starts yet again tonight in an otherwise much changed starting lineup. Do the haters still think he only starts when others are injured?

 

[Bobski]

Dances is certainly an interesting choice of words. The only parallel I can see with dancing in that clip would be a drunken dad with his shoelaces untied. When you say "he is still in control of the ball" that is clearly not the case. He blasts the ball 10 yards ahead of himself and it's obviously going to a Newcastle player. When it dawns on him that he's made a mistake, he tries to buy a foul but ends up making a fool of himself.

Have to ask why Jones is giving him the ball there, in that situation. Forces Smalling to have to go past the first man just to win/keep the ball, also makes the second challenge inevitable.Could have done better but playing a ball that forces Smalling as the last man to dribble past 2 guys, knowing his technical limitations, is not smart.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

I'd like to see this mystical list as well.

Smalling starts yet again tonight in an otherwise much changed starting lineup. Do the haters still think he only starts when others are injured?

Yeah you would think he’d get a rest tonight as he has played so many games. I’d imagine he is nailed on to start against Spurs which then makes you think what Jose thinks of his other options who have all been fit for a while right? Yet they don’t get a look in. When was the last time Rojo or Jones played. Must be a while.

Simply put he is “our” best CB, saw someone write it as if you compare him to Rio, Vidic, Terry, Maldini and the likes he isn’t at that level but what he is is currently 1 of the best in our league and certainly currently the best in our team.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Very reliable for a few goals a season.

 

[FC Ronaldo]

Mike

 

[Bobski]

A few problems with Darmian in the first half, and as a pair he and Jones do not fit each other, both being either incapable(Smalling) or unwilling(Jones) to pass out. However Smalling defended well and he deserves credit for his consistency this season, especially considering he has a different backline around him nearly every game.

Predatory movement for his goal.

 

[el3mel]

Great movement in getting his goal. Has become kinda of goal scoring CB which is nice.

 

[roonster09]

So many were so sure that he will be dropped when all our CBs are fit and he is still starting every single game.

Very good defending and one more goal.

 

[Ban]

He should definitely stay.

 

[Loublaze]

Great movement in getting his goal. Has become kinda of goal scoring CB which is nice.

Indeed. He's scored more goals for United than both Rio and Vidic did.

 

[Ban]

Apparently more away goals than Arsenal in 2018.

 

[Ashley R1+O]

Superb again, another superb season going into three in a row now. We've got the right piece to continue to bring through Bailly and Lindelof next season. Even chipping in with goals now! Future is bright in defense.


Oh wait he did a feck up in the 12th minute by passing a ball a bit to short to somebody and slightly not forward
TERRIBLE DEFENDER! SELL HIM.

 

[el3mel]

Holy shite, ridiculous stat.

 

[Rossa]

Holy shite, ridiculous stat.

Brilliant!

 

[Amar__]

Indeed. He's scored more goals for United than both Rio and Vidic did.

Surely that's not true?

 

[MadDogg]

I thought that meant in their careers, not just this season.

Of course, over the period of the last four seasons he's only six goals behind.