Child killed by pet dog

[One Night Only]

Why not just ban every animal and kill them all off?

Birds carryin bird flu, cats getting all sorts of diseases and scratching people, dogs barking making too much noise. And don't get me started on those lions and tigers!

 

[One Night Only]

With dangerous dogs there are other - more radical - options. Anyway, legislation aside, I just don't understand why people are desperate to own certain breeds of dogs, when there is so much evidence that these breeds present an obvious risk to young children. It's all very well blaming "irresponsible owners" but I refuse to believe that every dog that ever mauled a young child was owned by someone who didn't know what they were doing. When an animal has aggressive instincts hard-wired in it's genes and the tools to do horrific damage in a very short space of time, it's inevitable that accidents will happen.

Well people who have owned a certain breed may bece familiar with the breed. Not all dogs require the same walks / food / vet stuff / grooming.

I used to love labs, but one of my exes had a staffy and I found it the most loyal and loving dog is ever seen. Therefore I decided I would get a staffy after we had split up.

And IMO, there is no real danger as I'm a responsible person anyway. I don't have kids, have a decent sized garden, and it is secure so the dog can't escape. The letterbox doesn't require anyone to walk through where the dog would be either.

I also have a beach very close by and areas specifically for dogs pretty much. Don't let her off the lead often though, usually in the early hours, late hours, or shitty weather when nobody else is about.

I considering the plus points of a staffy:
- fun and playful
- loyal
- gentle
- no grooming / fur loss
- good size dog, not too big to crush me, not to small to annoy me

Downsides;
- idiotic people giving funny looks due to the breed / harness (harness is a responsible caution from me, and more comfortable for the dog)
- can be overexcitable if she hasn't seen me in a while
- fussy eaters (mine have been anyway)
- needs walking no matter the weather

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

@Pogue

I have yet to see a dog bite death case in the news where I thought that there no clear fault of the owners of the animal.

Personally I would not be concerned if aggressive breeds were banned. I have a Labrador that is soft as mashed potato. My point through my comparison with alcohol is that people have to be allowed some degree of freedom in their lives, be it to get drunk or own a a big dog. Banning breeds of dogs due to a tiny number of deaths that were caused by human negligence does not seem reasonable to me.

In my opinion there should be criminal culpability written into the law for negligent owners. I would not be averse to a licensing system for aggressive breeds either.

 

[George Owen]

paranoia paranoia every where.

When we were kids, we could go out kick the soccer ball freely, play with your friends around the block, go play to the park and nothing ever happened.

Nowadays moms are all paranoid, and put GPS devices to their kids, keep them inside, etc etc.

With the dogs is the same. I grew up with big dogs (German Sheppard, Amstaff, rottweilers, Akitas) and they have been family every time. Over 30 years of living with large breeds, and they have never bite humans/kids. I need and like big dogs because they protect my land. If you raise them with love and teach them to behave, no problem. For me, every single dog attack is 100% human responsibility.


Don't let the media put fear in your heads. Pretty much everything in life carries some degree of danger, but usually, its the lesser dangers the one the people are more afraid of, all thanks to the big media networks and misinformation.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Every single gun attack is 100% human responsibility. Which is - unlike the same claim about dog attacks - an incontrovertible fact.

Doesn't make gun control any less sensible as a means of managing risk.

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

I am pretty sure that if there were 20000 deaths per year caused by dog attacks then there would be a whole lot of clamour for the banning of dogs as pets full stop.

Cool analogy though.

 

[One Night Only]

paranoia paranoia every where.

When we were kids, we could go out kick the soccer ball freely, play with your friends around the block, go play to the park and nothing ever happened.

Nowadays moms are all paranoid, and put GPS devices to their kids, keep them inside, etc etc.

With the dogs is the same. I grew up with big dogs (German Sheppard, Amstaff, rottweilers, Akitas) and they have been family every time. Over 30 years of living with large breeds, and they have never bite humans/kids. I need and like big dogs because they protect my land. If you raise them with love and teach them to behave, no problem. For me, every single dog attack is 100% human responsibility.


Don't let the media put fear in your heads. Pretty much everything in life carries some degree of danger, but usually, its the lesser dangers the one the people are more afraid of, all thanks to the big media networks and misinformation.

Are you, me, from a more articulate parallel universe? You've said what I wanted to, and was thinking.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I am pretty sure that if there were 20000 deaths per year caused by dog attacks then there would be a whole lot of clamour for the banning of dogs as pets full stop.

Cool analogy though.

I guess that's why nobody is arguing for the banning of dogs as a pet full stop.

Glad you liked the analogy.

Seeing as we're throwing stats around, a quick google revealed the following (US) statistics:

In 2008, there were 316,200 ED visits and 9,500 hospital stays related to dog bites.

If you're admitted to hospital because of dog bites, this does imply that you've been fecked right up.

Fatal attacks do seem quite rare but I guess that's because dogs are pack animals and it's not easy for them to kill a human being on their own. Takes a special set of circumstances for them to have enough time to maul someone to death.

 

[George Owen]

I guess that's why nobody is arguing for the banning of dogs as a pet full stop.

Glad you liked the analogy.

man, i can kill you with my bare hands. One good punch and you are out of this world.

lets start cutting hands?

i also have a gun... a Walther PPK (007) hehe... i can kill you with that as well.

And i have big dogs... i can try to kill you with them, but they probably won't obey me. Unless you attack me. Then you are dead.


find the statistics in google... what's more dangerous. A dog or a human fist.

186 people die in the US every year for dog attacks. How many for punching?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Some UK stats:

2007-08: 4,611 hospital admissions

2008-09: 5,221 hospital admissions

2009-10: 5,837 hospital admissions

2010-11: 6,005 hospital admissions

2011-12: 6,580 hospital admissions

2012-13: 6,302 hospital admissions

Again, think about how badly someone has to be hurt that the doctor can't just stitch them up and send them home the same day.

Can't find hospitalisation rates for injuries due to guns. Just these figures.

In 2011/12, firearms were used in 9,555 recorded offences in England and Wales, of which 3,351 were violence against the person offences.

I'm guessing that there's a decent chunk of those 3,351 offences for gun violence against a person in which the bullet didn't hit it's intended target.

That same document has some stats for hospitalisations due to knife crimes. They peaked at just under 6000/year in 2005/6. Most recent figure is just over 4000/year in 2011/12.

 

[George Owen]

Seeing as we're throwing stats around, a quick google revealed the following (US) statistics:

If you're admitted to hospital because of dog bites, this does imply that you've been fecked right up.

Fatal attacks do seem quite rare but I guess that's because dogs are pack animals and it's not easy for them to kill a human being on their own. Takes a special set of circumstances for them to have enough time to maul someone to death.

have you ever being bite by a dog?

i have (a street dog), barely a scratch, and i had to go the hospital and get vaccinated (rabies prevention) and all that. You don't need to get fecked up.

 

[One Night Only]

Are you not from the UK Pogue?

Doctors here wont stitch you up, you have to goto hospital, and getting a doctors appointment is near impossible anyway, most people just goto A&E with cuts/gashes/etc

Also, find me stats of those hospital admissions, about which dogs caused it.

 

[George Owen]

You like to bring statistics up, but tell me... of all those attacks, how many where from street dogs? street dogs are 100% human responsibility just in case you don't know. (irresponsible owners abandoning dogs, public healthy department not doing their jobs, etc)

 

[Eboue]

man, i can kill you with my bare hands. One good punch and you are out of this world.

lets start cutting hands?

i also have a gun... a Walther PPK (007) hehe... i can kill you with that as well.

And i have big dogs... i can try to kill you with them, but they probably won't obey me. Unless you attack me. Then you are dead.


find the statistics in google... what's more dangerous. A dog or a human fist.

186 people die in the US every year for dog attacks. How many for punching?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

man, i can kill you with my bare hands. One good punch and you are out of this world.

lets start cutting hands?

i also have a gun... a Walther PPK (007) hehe... i can kill you with that as well.

And i have big dogs... i can try to kill you with them, but they probably won't obey me. Unless you attack me. Then you are dead.


find the statistics in google... what's more dangerous. A dog or a human fist.

186 people die in the US every year for dog attacks. How many for punching?

You seem to be missing the point quite badly.

Nobody will ever cut everyone's hands off. So that's a non-starter. Rigorous gun control will reduce gun crime though. Likewise there have been measure taken to try and reduce knife crime (amazingly, they didn't decide that restaurants should only put out place settings with just a fork and a spoon)

As far as dangerous dogs go. There should be similar preventative measures in place. I'm not expert enough to know what will work best. Muzzles didn't seem to do much. Maybe stricter licensing or criminal liablity will do the trick.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with gradually breeding out the most violent breeds. I don't think they'll be a big loss. I just don't see the need for them. I don't buy the farm animal idea, for starters. Not unless you've got wolves roaming round. I spent a large part of my life on farms which never had any dogs more aggresive than labradors and they coped fine. It also meant they were much less likely to see their own dogs worrying their sheep.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Are you not from the UK Pogue?

Doctors here wont stitch you up, you have to goto hospital, and getting a doctors appointment is near impossible anyway, most people just goto A&E with cuts/gashes/etc

Also, find me stats of those hospital admissions, about which dogs caused it.

If you go into A&E and get stitched up and sent home then that doesn't count as an admission. You have to actually be given a bed to count as formally admitted.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

have you ever being bite by a dog?

i have (a street dog), barely a scratch, and i had to go the hospital and get vaccinated (rabies prevention) and all that. You don't need to get fecked up.

So you weren't admitted to hospital.

 

[Man Utd Mrs]

 

[Man Utd Mrs]

On another note the farmer who lived next door was admitted to hospital with septicaemia from cat scratches. He subsequently died in hospital.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Actually, those UK/US stats are way out of whack. Maybe they're a lot less willing to admit in the states than they are in the UK? Something to do with (lack of) health insurance?

 

[George Owen]

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with gradually breeding out the most violent breeds. I don't think they'll be a big loss. I just don't see the need for them. I don't buy the farm animal idea, for starters. Not unless you've got wolves roaming round. I spent a large part of my life on farms which never had any dogs more aggresive than labradors and they coped fine. It also meant they were much less likely to see their own dogs worrying their sheep.

you are so clueless/ignorant.

there is no such thing as violent breeds, specially to humans. It's all about the environment and the way you raise your dog.

Pitbulls are one of the most caring and loving dogs out there, specially with kids, but because a bunch of gangsters/idiots/irresponsible owners raised them to fight and be aggressive, people are afraid of them and banned in several places.


Anyway, im off to watch some football.

 

[Madthinker]

you are so clueless/ignorant.

there is no such thing as violent breeds, specially to humans. It's all about the environment and the way you raise your dog.

Pitbulls are one of the most caring and loving dogs out there, specially with kids, but because a bunch of gangsters/idiots/irresponsible owners raised them to fight and be aggressive, people are afraid of them and banned in several places.


Anyway, im off to watch some football.

So you can't have violent breeds, but you can have breeds which are more caring and loving than others?

 

[George Owen]

So you can't have violent breeds, but you can have breeds which are more caring and loving than others?

Ok, let me rephrase. Pitbulls are just as loving and caring as any other breed, but because they have higher tolerance to pain than other dogs, makes them perfect for kids. Little kids can play with them without worrying to be too rough or whatever. The dog will keep playing and smiling.

Other breeds, will get bored and tired sooner and will go away from the child leaving him playing alone.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You'd let little kids play roughly with pit bulls?

 

[George Owen]

You'd let little kids play roughly with pit bulls?

just search in youtube "pitbull playing with kids..."


but yeah, of course i would. With a pitbull or any dog, raised by me in my house.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Ok and these are the same dogs you wrote this about.

And i have big dogs... i can try to kill you with them, but they probably won't obey me. Unless you attack me. Then you are dead.

You're saying your dogs would kill a human being if they suspected you were being attacked. The thing is, I'm not sure we should put that much faith in dogs always reading a situation right. What if they think you're being attacked but you're not? What if they perceive that a kid playing rough and tumble with you (or another one of your dogs) is being a bit too aggresive?

From what I've read about pitbulls, what makes them so dangerous is more than just their strength, their bite and how difficult it is to pull them off. Unlike a lot of breeds they don't bark and posture up before they attack. They don't give the same warning signals. With all of this in mind, it doesn't make any sense to me to allow little kids to play with them. Especially if you think these dogs wouldn't be worried about attacking a human, given the right circumstances.

 

[George Owen]

No. Dogs are not retarded beings. They wont attack no one unless i'm really in danger. They don't "suspect". They can feel fear, desperation and pain in us very easily. And happiness as well.

Different if a thief enters my yard, then they will attack and defend their turf.

im telling you. 30 years living with big dogs. In that time they have never attacked a friend of mine or my family, or family member... they wont even attack dogs from another family members. Its all in the way you raise them.

 

[711]

No. Dogs are not retarded beings. They wont attack no one unless i'm really in danger. They don't "suspect". They can feel fear, desperation and pain in us very easily. And happiness as well.

Different if a thief enters my yard, then they will attack and defend their turf.

im telling you. 30 years living with big dogs. In that time they have never attacked a friend of mine or my family, or family member... they wont even attack dogs from another family members. Its all in the way you raise them.

What do you mean 'won't even attack' ?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

How do dogs know the difference between a thief entering the yard, a postman, a jehova's witness or a kid who kicked his football over the wall?

 

[Silent_Running]

No. Dogs are not retarded beings.

Okay so how come they can't talk?

 

[Snowjoe]

Okay so how come they can't talk?

Fantastic point.

 

[Randall Flagg]

just search in youtube "pitbull playing with kids..."


but yeah, of course i would. With a pitbull or any dog, raised by me in my house.

I suppose if it's on YouTube it's ok then.

Yeah I'm with you pal

 

[NM]

Some right fools who know nothing about dogs in this thread.

 

[Dargonk]

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with gradually breeding out the most violent breeds. I don't think they'll be a big loss. I just don't see the need for them. I don't buy the farm animal idea, for starters. Not unless you've got wolves roaming round. I spent a large part of my life on farms which never had any dogs more aggresive than labradors and they coped fine. It also meant they were much less likely to see their own dogs worrying their sheep.

You will find with a lot of the big dogs, particularly those that come from a background of blood sports that they have actually been breed not to attack humans. The more real risk is how they react to other animals with these breeds. The problem with the gradually breeding out of particular breeds is that it solves nothing. The idiots that buy a dog for image, or want a dog that aggressively defends their patch will just move on to a new breed and bring it up to act that way. If I wanted to I could just as easily get your lovable Labrador to act aggressive to everyone but its family if need be, its all about how they are raised.

You'd let little kids play roughly with pit bulls?

I’ve never owned a pit bull, but they are similar to a staffy and I would let them. I’d be watching the dog at the same time though and be gauging it’s reaction as the child would be too young to do that itself. As a really young kid I rode about on our staffies back, and due to its tough nature they are great with rough play with kids. The press gives the breed a bad name, but they are one of the best breeds to have with small kids.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The very fact you'd need to watch the dog and gauge it's reaction on behalf of the kid tells me it's not an ideal breed to rear kids around. Almost impossible to prevent a scenario where the two interact without adult supervision. Not to mention the massive difference in the extent of the injuries the kid would get if they provoked the dog too much, compared to whatever damage most other breeds could inflict.

I can think of loads of breeds I wouldn't hesitate to leave a young kid alone in a room with. Providing I knew the dog had been properly reared, by a responsible owner.

 

[Snowjoe]

To be honest I wouldn't leave any animal with a kid without supervision, not even my old springer who was the wettest sop you could ever imagine, you just never quite know if one day they'll have a bit of a moment.

 

[Dargonk]

The very fact you'd need to watch the dog and gauge it's reaction on behalf of the kid tells me it's not an ideal breed to rear kids around. Almost impossible to prevent a scenario where the two interact without adult supervision. Not to mention the massive difference in the extent of the injuries the kid would get if they provoked the dog too much, compared to whatever damage most other breeds could inflict.

I can think of loads of breeds I wouldn't hesitate to leave a young kid alone in a room with. Providing I knew the dog had been properly reared, by a responsible owner.

You should be watching every dog regardless of size initially. Once you have worked out what is going on you adjust accordingly. I would do the same regardless of breed. Plus I was referring to very young kids that don’t understand what they are doing with dogs. It doesn’t take much for a toddler to pull and ear or tail and a dog to snap at them. In fact the smaller dogs are more likely to do that as they are more likely to be hurt by the kid.

You should never be making any assumptions based on breed at all. Remember you can't account for the kid doing things; you have to as much train the kid as the dog in how to interact with each other. A dog raised by the most responsible or owners that isn’t used to kids or how that kid acts towards it, or new people can react different to how you expect. It’s all about training both parties together, and until that happens they shouldn’t be left alone.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You should be watching every dog regardless of size initially. Once you have worked out what is going on you adjust accordingly. I would do the same regardless of breed. Plus I was referring to very young kids that don’t understand what they are doing with dogs. It doesn’t take much for a toddler to pull and ear or tail and a dog to snap at them. In fact the smaller dogs are more likely to do that as they are more likely to be hurt by the kid.

You should never be making any assumptions based on breed at all. Remember you can't account for the kid doing things; you have to as much train the kid as the dog in how to interact with each other. A dog raised by the most responsible or owners that isn’t used to kids or how that kid acts towards it, or new people can react different to how you expect. It’s all about training both parties together, and until that happens they shouldn’t be left alone.

That's the same age I'm talking about. Once a child knows how to behave around dogs the risk of an attack goes down dramatically. Of course, this presumes we're talking about kids who are familiar with dogs and are taught how to interact with them safely. Obviously, there are lots of kids who grow up with little or no chance to interact with a dog. There's every chance of one of these children turning up at a dog-owners house at some point. Especially if the owner has young children of their own. If a dog is genuinely safe around kids they will take all sorts of abuse from them and walk away if it gets too much. It's possible to train a dog that biting a human, under any circumstances, is completely unacceptable - no matter how much they are provoked. With some breeds this is much easier to achieve than others. It's not just a small dog/big dog thing either. There are some small breeds who will always present a risk of a nip if a kid pushes their buttons. Of course, this rarely has catastrophic results.

I agree completely with your second paragraph. Plus I accept that dogs are inidviduals, so there will be exceptions to every rule when you discuss traits that are more common in some breeds than others. This doesn't mean you can ignore the differences and assume that you can always train out the genetic predisposition for violence that is more prevalent in breeds that are recognised as being dangerous.

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

@Pogue

My folks live in a semi rural and quite affluent area. One of the more isolated residents (one neighbour within shouting distance) were broken into one night and tied up and gagged by robbers with shotguns whilst their house was robbed.

More recently a family friend from the centre of the village which has lots of houses and a pub nearby woke up one evening hearing people trying to break in; they shouted to the thieves that the police had been called but the robbers were undeterred, picked up a large pot vase and put it through one of the windows; once inside they forced the homeowner into handing over keys for their cars.

If either of these homeowners had kept, say a couple of American Bulldogs (neither had any dogs), I really don't think that either incident would have happened. This is the reason why many farmers keep aggressive breed dogs, and in my opinion, should have the right to do so.

 

[Man Utd Mrs]

The idiots that buy a dog for image, or want a dog that aggressively defends their patch will just move on to a new breed and bring it up to act that way. If I wanted to I could just as easily get your lovable Labrador to act aggressive to everyone but its family if need be, its all about how they are raised.

This is probably what would happen if all the so-called "devil" dogs were destroyed.
They'd move onto another breed.