Agree on Mount, but what do you mean about Ziyech? He was nowhere near KdB at any time during this passage of play? Wasn't anywhere close to him when he intercepted Kante's attempted lofted pass and nodded it forward for Sterling, and got caught flat-footed on the break as he was attempting to latch on to said pass from Kante.
Chelsea 2020/21 - General discussion
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Agree on Mount, but what do you mean about Ziyech? He was nowhere near KdB at any time during this passage of play? Wasn't anywhere close to him when he intercepted Kante's attempted lofted pass and nodded it forward for Sterling, and got caught flat-footed on the break as he was attempting to latch on to said pass from Kante.
And you think that's because age has suddenly caught up with him?
I mean, he had the most quality in that brilliant Ajax team, but I honestly never saw the desired work rate I would want from my RW. Maybe it was the tactics. Can’t remember his games for Chelsea for some reason, because of the amount of time he’s missed since Leeds.
But about Chelsea’s performance today, I thought you lot lacked ambition. That’s all there is to it. It’s like Lampard was scared shitless of a weakened City and told his players to drop 10 yards deeper. Not having a target man who seems to guarantee a goal whenever he starts in Giroud also played right into City’s hands. Sometimes, when you’re getting absolutely dominated, it’s not a bad thing to resort to Stone Age football in the mould of Big Sam. Giroud would have given you lot so much more threat today. Heck, even Abraham would have.
Yeah that’s actually my point. He was near the halfway line when the ball was played through to Sterling, yet decided to have a leisurely walk while the rest of his teammates paced back. That’s basic effort that was lacking from him there. Even if he was rushed back from injury, he has to absolutely hammer back down that pitch in the hope that the 1% chance of him being able to clear the ball happens.
hopefully they get a win soon. Fat Frank Lumplard must stay!
No. I talked about that to tell you part of your players are playing shit may be because of that. Nothing to do with his individual performance.
As for his recent individual performance, it remains the same that age has caught up with him. This is predictable because months passed means you get older, you played more and age is becoming the factor as your legs are not fit enough to maintain it in high intense league. Terry & Rio past it at Chelsea and United around the same age.
Lampard's obsession with Mount is crazy.
Is nobody gonna mention how shite Kante has been lately? Always diabolical on the ball but now he isn't even doing what he's good at
That's pretty odd then, if I'm honest. He was one of those massive nuisance, aggressive pressing types at Ajax. Hasn't had the chance to show it at Chelsea as he's been in and out of the team and Chelsea in general have gone from a team with a good high press to barely having any press at all.
Everyone said he needed to play Werner down the middle, essentially the front 3 is exactly the front 3 people were asking for.
I don't know if it's lacking ambition, but we've played that way pretty much every time we've faced City, even when we beat them last season. We were playing better football last season,
I said I thought he was showing good signs and was laying good groundwork. That was after 11 games. We've now played an additional 6 and looked like shit, so I revised my opinion based on new data, much of which directly contrasts what had been seen before. How this is a mark against me I frankly do not understand? Again, it's not like Lampard has an extensive track record that can be pointed to, we basically have to evaluate him in real time.
The far bigger problem than the front 3 was that Ziyech was completely isolated insofar as he had to combine with Kovacic (who was our worst player on the night) and Azpilicueta, who can't really be faulting for having his legs go but realistically at this point is a liability, especially going forward.
We also played directly into City's hands regarding our buildup - out of Thiago Silva, Zouma, and Kante only the former can actually progress the ball. City therefore pressed him aggressively with two men and totally stood off of Kante and Zouma. Meanwhile, City's two wingers just sat between our CBs and fullbacks so that avenue was cut off as well. We needed Kovacic and Mount to drop deeper to receive the ball and turn to make things happen - Mount did this on occasion but all Kovacic did was get in the way and/or give the ball away cheaply. There was a clip going around on twitter of Silva yelling at Kovacic because he managed to single-handedly bring 3 City defenders into the previously-open passing lane to Werner between the lines.
It's only one of Chelsea, Spurs and Leicester City scraping top four.
It's risky to bet against Jose but I really can see Brendan getting past Jose and Frank.
It's risky to bet against Jose but I really can see Brendan getting past Jose and Frank.
The selection (your original excuse) hasn’t been changed from that 11 games to the recent 6 games. There were 5 games of those 11 games he played the similar XI as the 3 games of your recent 6 games and the other 4 games of those 11 games he also played the similar XI as the 2 games of your recent 6 games.
Tactic hasn’t been changed either relying on width, crossing and set pieces.
What even are you on about? We've used 6 different lineups in our last 6 matches. Also again, just because a selection works one week doesn't mean picking it again is inherently good.
And the fact that our tactics haven't been adapted to the opposition and selection is also, in fact, Very Bad. This is to say nothing of the lack of organisation in the team now compared to two months ago.
I know we've had our back and forths but this bug you have up your arse about this is really baffling to me. If I say something because the manager has made good decisions up to a point I'm supposed to stand by it when he makes inexplicable and idiotic decisions for the next ~50% of the season to date?
Werner acting as a bermuda triangle for all our attacking moves doesn't help either. I also don't understand why we have stopped flooding the box when Ziyech or James/Chilwell have the ball. We created so much from directly getting on the end of crosses, or the ensuing chaos. I counted at least 3 separate occasions where Werner and Mount literally cleared the box by coming short to Chilwell or Ziyech. I don't like that we've become a cross and hope for the best kind of team but if we're going to be that team, it would help if we actually committed to that style.
I'm kind of at a loss at what Lampard can do to arrest the slide. I understand the urge the stick what was working earlier but the only thing I can even resembles our games a few weeks ago is the formation, the rest is completely unrecognisable.
Agreed. Werner needs to be put into a role where he isn't so involved in buildup play - I don't mind that front 3 in a vacuum but if no one in our midfield is going to play the ball into space then there's little point really.
I really think Hudson-Odoi deserves to start the next couple of league games. Pulisic is wonderful when he's on form, but he's another bermuda triangle kind of player when he isn't playing well, keeps dribbling into a wall, but yeah we need to get Havertz going somehow.
I had visions of us playing this incredibly dynamic fast flowing football last summer and Havertz was central to all of it. Without him, our midfield is essentially the same as the inconsistent one that struggled for long stretches last season.
What good decision making? What have changed in that decision making? You are not making progress at all in our conversation mate, I want more detail not just talk about your own opinion and lazy argument. Those 6 matches that you moaned about, please give me your preferred line up for every each of them.
Your confidence is remarkable considering that Leicester are only 1 point off the top of the table - and Spurs likewise if we win our game in hand (home to Fulham) - with the season half-way point not yet even reached.
Not that I don't disagree that it's entirely too early to mean anything but it's not exactly the most honest portrayal to claim you're only one point off the top of the league if you win your game in hand but don't acknowledge that we're 4 points ahead on the same amount of games. You're 4 points back, just say that.
What good decision making? The kind that had us with one loss in 17 fixtures. The kind that had us playing multiple systems. After the 0-0 at Old Trafford we seemed to have settled into an approach that proved fruitful over the next month. I also find it hilarious that you are demanding some sort of deep dive analysis whilst still maintaining that we should just clone Bruno apparently so as to play midfielders who don't fit together behind him.
1. Everton - no real issues here. Unlucky match which can happen; losing 1-0 away after hitting the post twice. Fair play. No crisis.
2. Wolves - Shocking game management to relinquish the lead, beyond inexcusable to lose the match. Total naivete to leave everyone forward and lose the point / plot.
3. West Ham - Clearly we were flattered by the result. Playing Kante as an 8 to fit Jorginho in the side was absolutely stupid and completely avoidable. Play Havertz, play Gilmour, play any of our midfielders instead. Lucky to go ahead on the set piece and lucky to not concede an equalizer to West Ham.
4. Arsenal - Worst result of the season. It was a surprise Arsenal played 4-2-3-1 and matched us 1v1 in midfield; it's completely unacceptable for the manager to not realise that we were dominated in that zone.
5. Aston Villa - Could have been worse, but the selection was ridiculous. Rotating the centre halves instead of the midfield was idiotic, playing Pulisic again was insane, etc. Ultimately we were probably fortunate to get a point.
6. Man City - The less said the better. Front 3 is fair enough but the midfield setup was insane. Your boy Kovacic was our worst player by a mile and was actively detrimental, as was Kante (albeit to a slightly lesser extent). Playing the same system for the 10th straight match played right into Pep's hands; it was the simplest thing in the world for him to devise a pressing approach to nullify anything we had on offer. The fact that 3 like for like subs were made and there were zero tactical adjustments is also quite damning.
Does United's game in hand count less than Spurs?
So your positive judgment on his man management and tactic were based on how many loses or wins you had in those 11 games and him playing multiple systems, seriously? Nothing about what are the tactics he played that made you think at that time he was the man? No some consistent example about this decision making/man management that also made you think at that time he was the man?
Let me tell you something, you have only played against the lesser teams before the poor form. When you played against teams that are in top 10 or with some quality like Spurs, United, Liverpool, Southampton in those 11 games, you struggled to win which what happened in your recent 6 games against Everton, Wolves, Arsenal, Villa & City. Do you pick up something here now?
Please read about the Bruno's case, don't be lazy reader.
1. Okay
2. So, what's the idiotic team selection decisions vs Wolves again?
3. But you won the game though so based on your logic ''The kind that had us with one loss in 17 fixtures'' you shouldn't be moaning since before the West Ham game Lampard has played Kante & Jorginho and you praised him right?
4. So, what's the idiotic team selection decisions vs Arsenal again?
5. Nothing wrong to rest his centre backs especially 36 years old centre back Silva, you only conceded 1 goal in that match so centre back rotation weren't the problem. Unless if you are making points that Lampard's corner tactic won't work without Silva & Zouma, is this your point? What's insane about the Pulisic's case?
6. So you prefers Jorginho & Kante then even though you moaned about West Ham game? I'll make it easier for you, the problem has been Lampard's tactic from the start not Kovacic or the players. It's not coincidence you struggled to win against top 10 or some quality teams in this whole season.
They’ll start breaking down. Just a hunch. I’m not too sure how Klopp has been rotating them but its a feeling I have. I went to peak at their starting 11 for the last game vs Southampton but don’t want to look back at the other games. Has he been rotating them?
True, we're not even half way through the season yet, but it's also true that United have a deeper squad than either Chelsea, Spurs or Leicester City. That depth may be illusion as injuries to Bruno and Pogba, should they happen (knock on wood) simply cannot be compensated for by anyone else on the squad. But the same "indispensable player" problem is an issue for Spurs at the very least (Kane and Son) and probably Leicester City (Vardy and Ndidi), although possibly not Chelsea.
We'll definitely just have to see how it all plays out, but surely we can now state with a fair amount of confidence that United are very firmly in a top four conversation, and as it happens are locked in a title run with Liverpool but I can't make any promises about that. And if we can assume City are in that same conversation, and surely we must even while fully acknowledging their current position in the table, that really does leave one spot left in the top four (I'm quite sure no one is calling for Liverpool to drop out of the top four), which does in fact include Spurs to compete for. I'm not sure they'll scrape it in the end, but I would neither rule them in or out. The fourth spot is there to be won, and I have no doubt Spurs will be in the hunt for it.
Of course not, but that's entirely besides the point I made ... which was a reply to a post which assumed that the end-of-season's top 3 places were already set in stone for occupation by Liverpool, City and United.
I know right, amazing he has the cheek to talk about overconfidence as well given what we've had to read from him for years telling us how great Spurs are. Remember the classic about Bayern being a sideways step from Spurs?
I disagree. Moreover, and of relevance to the post that I originally replied to, there's a difference between saying that club X is in the top 4 conversation and saying that the same club is bound to finish in the top 3.
I think the two German signings are bit of an Achilles heel for Chelsea. They can potentially get better results from playing Abraham or Giroud as a nine and have James, Chilwell and Ziyech put balls into the box for them to attack. Pulisic can counter with his pace or play off the 9. But they need to drop Werner. Then Lampard can set up the midfield to give his defenders more cushion with Jorginho, Kante and Gilmore / Mount.
Problem is how do you drop the two expensive signings with considerable wages. In that way, I think Werner and Havertz could prove to be for Frank what Sanchez was for Mourinho.
Problem is how do you drop the two expensive signings with considerable wages. In that way, I think Werner and Havertz could prove to be for Frank what Sanchez was for Mourinho.
United clearly have a deeper squad than Chelsea, Spurs or Leicester City.
The difference between a club being in the top four conversation and being bound to finish in the top three is not that great: one place lower of course, but either way you’re in the CL and the gobs of cash, global exposure and attractiveness to prospective transfer targets
The difference between fourth and fifth is, well, massive, no?
If what you’re really trying to say is that it could all go tits up for United, that’s of course a possibility we can’t rule out but surely we can agree that the odds of such a collapse are not good, given their quality throughout the squad. But the same could be said about any club: we’re watching Liverpool fall apart right before our eyes, but because of what most of us regard as their quality in their starting XI it’s very hard to imagine them falling out of the top four. The same for City. We cannot say the same for the three other clubs mentioned above.
Chelsea really went 0/3 this window. Nice!
Souness is right, and, being Souness, also wrong. Ziyech is culpable, but the problem isn't that he's not sprinting back, the problem is that he's put himself in a position where there's not much point in sprinting back. If you watch the replay carefully, Ziyech is approximately on line with Kante when he's taking the free kick, out to the left, while everyone else is in the box for the free kick. So, clearly Ziyech has the back cover job, along with Kante. There's nobody else. But when Kante knocks the clearance back in, Ziyech makes a forward run. That leaves Kante the only player guarding the back, so when he's overrun, there's nothing. Incredibly bad decision by Ziyech, and the goal is almost as ridiculous as ours in Istanbul.
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Come on. Chelsea has a much deeper squad than United. Their first XI may not be as good, but that's a different matter.
I just took another look at Chelsea’s squad. I’d still say no, United have the deeper squad, but it’s not by much.
What we as club supporters, myself included, imagine in our mind’s eye how well our own players should be playing, given what we believe their abilities to be. Martial is a great example: he technical ability is outstanding and we United supporters dream of what we believe he should be performing at, but for whatever reason it’s just not happening enough.
As for Chelsea, I see incredible talent but I don’t see enough in that squad to allow me to believe it’s a deeper squad than United.
Just an opinion.
It has been an ugly month. It will get better or Lampard will be gone. This was supposed to be a three year building period, but those three years are not without expectations.
They have two international centre back as their squad depth, while we have Tuanzebe. They have Azpilicueta, while we have Brandon Williams & Fosu Mensah. They have Tammy Abraham, Giroud, Jorginho, Pulisic, CHO while we have Greenwood, Cavani, Matic, VDB, James. I don’t know what you saw, their squad depth is still slightly better than ours.
What should be worrying Chelsea more than anything is that by Thursday night, Arsenal if the beat Palace at home (& yeah that's a big if this season) will be in level points with them, of course with Chelsea's game still to play.
That was inconceivable about a month ago considering what a disaster of a season we've had!
That was inconceivable about a month ago considering what a disaster of a season we've had!
1/6 then. I'll call Chilwell a success right now. All the other five I think are questionable.