Champions League gameweek 3
- Thread starter Sarni
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Right, and a 7-4 would have been a lot better than 4-0. At least they actually created a reasonable amount of chances, unlike us in both finals.
And that idiot is right. It wasn't a masterclass, as we gave up a number of chances. Can should have been awarded a penalty and Firmino was denied by a last ditch tackle. Had they won 1-0, we would have come in for heavy criticism. But at the same time, it would have been seen as a masterclass had Ibrahimović scored. It was a resilient display and we got the point we came for.
Neymar 4-0
It looked like MCFC had given up by then.
I mean completely capitulated. Gave up. Collapsed.
Spanish pundits saying Pep with lotsa work to get city to Barca level. Gosh. Can't believe I'm missing Dunphs. Very pleasing result in any case.
How exactly should he have changed it?
Did he not use it against Klopp?
Sign better defenders during the summer?
So at halftime today he should have bought better defenders last summer?
He has to stand by his decisions. Everybody and his mother couldn't believe they didn't sign a fullback.
He binned Hart and brought in Bravo. He is dropping his main goalscorer when they are on a run of struggling to score.
Don't play out from the back v Barca.
Or is only the positives attributed to Pep and all negatives are out of his control?
Ozil's first touch for his first goal was excellent. First hattrick for the club too, maybe his first ever?
His second goal was an intentional volley into the ground too
. Two volleys, when your first touch is that good it's no wonder he can score them like that.
His second goal was an intentional volley into the ground too
. Two volleys, when your first touch is that good it's no wonder he can score them like that.
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Aguero should have been in right at half time... Nobody was making runs into the boxes.. Sterling and KDB ran in behind the fullbacks and got so many chances to get the ball in the box... If Aguero had come in, he could have scored....Whether that would have made a difference to the final result?. I doubt it...but atleast he could have forced the issue...
He could've tried to avoid passing into the positions where he knows Barca loves to jump at you. Like the 1-0 goal resulted from. If you find yourself outnumbered in one area of the pitch, the natural thought is to look for another area - where you necessarily must outnumber the opposition.
An example is to play for 1v1s for Sterling, trying to bypass the entire midfield. They'd lose the ball a lot here as well, but in less dangerous spots.
Edit: I meant the 2-0 goal here, mixed them up
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No more risky back passing ? Do not hesitate to hoof the ball under intense pressure ? Aguero from start or at least at the start of the second half.
Cheers, I was looking at an outdated table. But city would be on 4 after that part right? but it makes little difference as you are right BMG would need to beat ye to guarantee qualification.
I actually quite like LeverkusenI was in a bad mood yesterday as the last two matches I watched were 0-0. I need goals like Bender needs booze, man.
Whoa, so many answers. I tried to be brief (well...), but it took me some time.
@cyberman and the others:
I can see three ways to counter Barca's pressing:
1. Playing long balls to a Lewandowski-like target man
2. Defending deep and playing long balls to quick attackers (like Agüero/Sterling)
3. Passing through the tight spots to get to the open spaces
Guardiola's teams take option 3 obviously. And City doesn't have the personnel to play like option 1 or 2. No (world class) big man for hold up play, and no defense that can fend off Barca for 90 minutes like Atlético or similar teams. So insisting on their own possession is the only choice for them, which means outplaying Barca's pressing, no matter how difficult that is.
I can definitely see the point in clearing the ball under overwhelming pressure. But Bravo and the defenders did clear the ball several times in that game, so I don't think there is a strict prohibition on that. It was just a big feck up in a not very difficult situation. The way to avoid that is to make better decisions, not to reverse the style of play.
I see it this way: City played a remarkably good game up to the point when Bravo bottled it, precisely because they stuck to these principles. Throwing all that away to avoid something like this is not a convincing idea to me. After that, being one man & one goal down, they were finished no matter what.
The first half was fine imo. City was roughly on par with Barca at the Nou Camp and one reason was the compact pressing setup with 4 central midfielders. Guardiola got that completely right, City were dangerous enough and forced Ter Stegen into several saves. So why should he change that at HT? Opening up the game more by fielding Agüero would have played into Barcelona's cards.
That's always the plan, but Barcelona's pressing is designed to prevent exactly that. It worked several times, other times it didn't. But if you choose to build up against Barca (and that is City's way of playing) you have to go on trying. If City had hoofed it under pressure as some demand here (not you), these good plays wouldn't have happened, too. And I don't think they have the means to be more successful in another way.
@cyberman and the others:
I can see three ways to counter Barca's pressing:
1. Playing long balls to a Lewandowski-like target man
2. Defending deep and playing long balls to quick attackers (like Agüero/Sterling)
3. Passing through the tight spots to get to the open spaces
Guardiola's teams take option 3 obviously. And City doesn't have the personnel to play like option 1 or 2. No (world class) big man for hold up play, and no defense that can fend off Barca for 90 minutes like Atlético or similar teams. So insisting on their own possession is the only choice for them, which means outplaying Barca's pressing, no matter how difficult that is.
I can definitely see the point in clearing the ball under overwhelming pressure. But Bravo and the defenders did clear the ball several times in that game, so I don't think there is a strict prohibition on that. It was just a big feck up in a not very difficult situation. The way to avoid that is to make better decisions, not to reverse the style of play.
I see it this way: City played a remarkably good game up to the point when Bravo bottled it, precisely because they stuck to these principles. Throwing all that away to avoid something like this is not a convincing idea to me. After that, being one man & one goal down, they were finished no matter what.
Would love to see a PSG vs. Juventus tie at some point.
I mean even Barca went long at times due to the City press and they're the team with far better technical players.
City were just trying to force it, pretending to be this technically amazing team that could casually handle Barca pressing and start from the back no matter what.
Paris, Juve and Dortmund could play an underdog role if stuff runs their way this season.
Ozil's first touch for his first goal was excellent. First hattrick for the club too, maybe his first ever?
His second goal was an intentional volley into the ground too
It's no surprise he's on good goal form, I think with Sanchez in front of him dropping deep and wide is working wonders for him and Walcott. Mustafi has been a great addition and the club has a fair amount of depth in most positions. I think this is the best Arsenal team in a long time.
What's Ramsey going to do when he's back? I don't think he can ever really be a CM for Arsenal, and Ozil is undoubtedly the better CAM. Iwobi is a much better fit on the wing also.
I made a mistake in my post, I was thinking about the 2-0 goal (not that it matters much for your points).
I partially agree with you, but I think there is an option missing - which is to exploit the flanks. Look at 2-0 as an example, both Fernandinho and KdB has the ball in the centre. Both have the LB available, yet both choose solutions that are central. Guardiola loves the centre, and to me it just looks like a mistake tbh. With Messi lurking around the CB, leaving nice room out left that isn't used. They just play straight into the Barca press, instead of stretching out.
Barca press in a way that tries to close down the angle (at least it looks that way), which means you often need to elevate the ball. Maybe they're not good enough at passing, idk.
Fair point. Maybe it's down to instructions from Guardiola, maybe just to bad decisions from the players. It looks to me as if Barca wants to lead City's build up to the flanks here, and that could be the exact reason for not doing it. Then again, sometimes you have no choice when it's too dangerous to insist on Plan A.I made a mistake in my post, I was thinking about the 2-0 goal (not that it matters much for your points).
I partially agree with you, but I think there is an option missing - which is to exploit the flanks. Look at 2-0 as an example, both Fernandinho and KdB has the ball in the centre. Both have the LB available, yet both choose solutions that are central. Guardiola loves the centre, and to me it just looks like a mistake tbh. With Messi lurking around the CB, leaving nice room out left that isn't used. They just play straight into the Barca press, instead of stretching out.
Barca press in a way that tries to close down the angle (at least it looks that way), which means you often need to elevate the ball. Maybe they're not good enough at passing, idk.
One factor in these mistakes might be that players new to these tactics are still inflexible and try to play a textbook possession game, which is not the best choice for every situation. They have to grow into that style and I expect more errors along the way. (Bravo is experienced though, he just fecked up.) For example, if Guardiola wants to ideally use width only in the final third, they may follow it literally while Guardiola probably knows when it's better to abort such an attempt. Same with clearances. But maybe I'm wrong and he forces these plays.
I'm sure they will go there either way.
But seriously, I need to watch the highlights to the Napoli game, seems such a strange result after, as you said, equalising twice.
I see your point of view but I kind of see it differently.
Barcelona had Mascherano at RB, lost Alba very early on and Pique got injured too (City's chances increased after the period in which he went off). That essentially left them with a poor ball playing back four, it also removed their wing back threat (had Sergi Roberto and Alba played that first half it would have been a different story). This helped city massively because Barcelona essentially had to play everything through their central midfield area and that's where the press came in handy. The problem is though it left their defence slightly exposed, all it took was a ball over the top to Messi or Neymar and city were in trouble. The first goal and red card basically came about this way so I don't think they were 'unlucky', the law of averages said at some point it would happen.
Guardiola should have realised this, he doesn't have good enough defenders to cope with a 4 on 3 situation with Messi, Suarez and Neymar. Every time those three ran at them you could see the panic in the city back four, Stones and Otamendi were atrocious.
Guardiola for me didn't come with a pragmatic approach, he came trying to outplay and out press Barca, he needs to realise that over the course of 90 minutes, this is impossible and will result in you being exposed at several points and when you have players who are prone to errors, errors are going to happen and they did. I also don't remember Ter Stegen making 'several' saves, I count about two in the first half but it's nothing La liga clubs don't do to Barcelona on a regular basis. It's not as if city are the first team to ever create chances against Barcelona, let alone against a make shift back four. None of their chances are even what I would describe as 'clear cut' other than maybe Stone's header which was from a set piece anyway.
A better tactic tonight would have been to play on the counter, especially against that Barca back four. Similar to us on Monday. A 4-5-1. Navas in for Nolito and Aguero in for Silva. Navas sucks I know but he has pace and can carry the ball a fair distance. Silva would have been pointless in such a set up.
City would have sucked Barca in high up the pitch and countered with Sterling Navas Aguero. Isolating Mascherano at rb, Digne at Lb and that clown Mathieu they might have had some joy.
Pep has a lot to learn, I'm still seeing the same mistakes he made at Bayern, even at Barca too in CL away ties, where he almost thinks his style of play and philosophy trumps all else. He needs to understand that you can't always defend from the front especially when you're coming up against teams equal or better than yours. You don't always need to be in control of the game, his terrible away record in the CL against the better sides is an indication of a man who simply fails to realise the error of his ways. He made slight adjustments tonight but still basically failed to move away from his incessant need to control a game.
They lost 4-0 tonight, that's piss poor, simple as that really. Pep was meant to close the gap between themselves and Barca, yet that is the heaviest scoreline in the fixture.
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yeah sorry, we took such a whopping tonight i can't count.
I already tried to point out why I don't think City can reverse their style completely just like that. They don't have the personnel and the well trained automatisms. You need both when under heavy pressure from the best team in the world.
Shots on goal saved: 1:07, 1:19, 2:08, 2:32
Minor saves: 0:11, 0:52, 1:45, 2:25
Plus the Stones header and a situation where Digne first handles the ball inside Barca's box, then De Bruyne hits the side net from inside the 5 yard box.
No disrespect, but it's hard to have a discussion when the perception of what happened on the pitch is so different from what actually happened.
Again no disrespect, but man, things like that just don't sound right coming from people like you and me.
Stones really out of his depth there...
I think with John stones things will be like Sakho (the Liverpool Vidic), Cavani or Harry Kane for England.
It will take quite some time before people finally accept that maybe he is a bit overrated. They are players who give a good first impression and from there on their fans will always remember that and ignore most of their mistakes.
I understand that feeling all too well. It was difficult for me with Nani and Kagawa. It took me time to accept that they are not as good as I originally thought.
So I would urge you all to get some John Stones jokes ready because he will always have people to defend his every brain fart however frequently they occur.
It will take quite some time before people finally accept that maybe he is a bit overrated. They are players who give a good first impression and from there on their fans will always remember that and ignore most of their mistakes.
I understand that feeling all too well. It was difficult for me with Nani and Kagawa. It took me time to accept that they are not as good as I originally thought.
So I would urge you all to get some John Stones jokes ready because he will always have people to defend his every brain fart however frequently they occur.
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You don't need to be Atletico Madrid to play a defensive/counter game. It's a kop out to say they don't have the 'personnel' and 'automatisms'.
If anything like I said city don't have the personnel to outplay and out press barca for 90 minutes without it leaving them exposed.
Setting up a perfect defensive game is also easier to do than an perfect attacking one.
I know what happened on the pitch mate and I don't class cutting out poor city crosses as Stegen "making saves".
What can be said about Pep then?
For the supposed greatest manager in the world how is it he has this horrific away record?
"Repeating the same mistakes over and over and expecting different results is insanity"..,
To me that is Pep in these sort of games. His failure to adapt and adjust according to opponent leaves a lot to be desired. Even when he makes tweaks like tonight his agenda is still the same.
I mean they need to go there to get a result.I'm sure they will go there either way.
But seriously, I need to watch the highlights to the Napoli game, seems such a strange result after, as you said, equalising twice.
I did watch most of the game, such a bizarre game. First two goals Napoli conceded was some suicidal defending, Jorginho's mistakes, one of them a backpass to their defender. They also missed a penalty. Napoli first European home defeat in 19 games and Beskitas first group stage win since 2009.
What a huge upset.
This group is interesting now.
Napoli 6
Beskitas 5
Benfica 4
Dyanmo Kiev 1
As I've said, Italian teams always make it hard for themselves in Champions League for some reason.
I can see City winning at home vs Barca. Up to the Bravo antics they were at least on par.
Three wins, one draw - good results for the Bundesliga teams on this matchday.
I think Barca will punish them on the counter. City's backline just isn't good enough.
Absolutely. I realize United fans' desire to have a laugh at City's expence but their tactics were quite effective until Bravo's sending off. I think they were closer to equalizing than Barca to getting their second when the brain fart incident took place. After that, it was just a matter of how many Barca would score.
Bravo's send off certainly didn't help, but it can't be used as the sole reason for what happened after. City's defense lacks organization, it's only a question of when, not if, brainfarts start to happen.
Barca can sit back at the Etihad and wait for counters.