Centre Mid options other than Vidal..

This is a bit of an OT post but I've been contemplating United's transfer plan for a while and IMO our whole scheme needs a bit of an overhaul in the sense that chucking money on massive wages and fees may not be the most progressive option going forward. Firstly looking around at the business Chelsea, Madrid, Barcelona pull in terms of selling players, I'm a bit dismayed that apart from Cristiano Ronaldo most of our purchases from the last odd decade has bee moved on for a significant loss in discord with the general principle of buying low and selling high. So much so that some of them are now seemingly unsellable and we'll have to largely subsidize any future moves. For all the talk of value IMO we've missed on some spectacularly cheap deals while splurging on rather average players.

This is kind of the opposite of what we did in 2006 signing Vidic, Evra, Van der Sar for less than a combined € 20 million - players that were the bedrock for perhaps the most successful period in our history. Looking around Europe there's something to be admired with some of the most effective midfields and the moneyball-esque transfer dealings by those clubs. Whether by design, sheer coincidence or opportunism they've found really cost effective deals for young talents, misfits and outcasts in equal measure all the while building a midfield quite stronger than ours on a budget lesser than or around one Fellaini (no offence).


Juventus :

Andrea Pirlo - Bosman
Arturo Vidal - Even back when transfrerred from Leverkusen, Vidal was an excellent midfielder. So the € 11 million was excellent in hindsight.
Paul Pogba - Bosman

Borussia Dortmund :

Sven Bender - One of the finest defensive midfielders around. Signed for an undisclosed fee thought to be around € 4 million.
Ilkay Gundogan - Was one of the best midfielders in Europe in 2012-2013. Signed in 2011 for just € 6 million from Nurnberg, a value that grew over five times in a single season.
Milos Jojic - Signed from Partizan for € 3 million.

AS Roma :

Miralem Pjanic - 11 million Lyon.
Kevin Strootman - 17 million.
Radja Naingollan - 3 million fee rising by 9 million Cagliari.

Atletico Madrid -

Gabi - Came through Atletico's ranks but was sold to Zaragoza. Later bought for € 3 million and was arguably one of the best central midfielders in Europe these past couple of seasons.
Tiago - Had a dramatic loss of form at consecutive clubs - Chelsea, Lyon and Juventus. Was loaned in from Juventus and later signed on a Bosman transfer.

Paris Saint Germain -

Thiago Motta - Was unhappy at Internazionale and felt undermined by Claudio Ranieri. Signed for € 10million.
Mlaise Matuidi - Bought from Saint Etienne for € 7.5 million when he was a relatively unknown player.
Marco Verratti - One of the brightest young talents in world football. Bought from Pescara for just € 12 million.
Adrien Rabiot - Had a terrible stint at city and after a loan spell at Pau was signed on a Bosman.

While I do think we need and crave a marquee signing maybe over a longer time frame the club needs to develop the nose for a bargain and actively scout extensively for undervalued/ young but promising players ready to explode and put together a competitive side relatively cheaply. That's probably the most sustainable model in the long term and also ties in with the philosophy that United makes stars, not buy them off the shelf.
Good post - our new scouting coach is supposed to be good..hopefully over the next couple of years we see that.
 
carvalho would be my 2nd choice, different type of player but going to be a beast and perfect behind Mata and Herrera going forward
 
Watch much of City's U14 team do you?

I meant off the pitch from the player's perspective. Rabiot was reportedly homesick during the first 6 months and failed to acclimatize. Much like Denis Suarez who always had an eye on a return to Spain after signing from Celta. Both of them couldn't manage to make much of an impact at City despite being obviously talented.

Aged just 13, after six troublesome months in England Rabiot left Manchester City due to homesickness after struggling to communicate with team-mates and staff. He had a very tough time on the other side of the Channel as he failed to make an impression or adjust to the new lifestyle.


http://www.fourfourtwo.com/features...pes-biggest-clubs-lurking#VAKzf770BH70HMLM.99
 
Khedira, Bender twins? Wasn't there reports in Germany the other week we were interested in Kramer?
 
I meant off the pitch from the player's perspective. Rabiot was reportedly homesick during the first 6 months and failed to acclimatize. Much like Denis Suarez who always had an eye on a return to Spain after signing from Celta. Both of them couldn't manage to make much of an impact at City despite being obviously talented.




http://www.fourfourtwo.com/features...pes-biggest-clubs-lurking#VAKzf770BH70HMLM.99
Haha yeah I was just messing.

I'd expect it is extremely difficult for young kids to try and play in new countries with others they can't even communicate with. I know I would have hated trying to cope with that.
 
See this:



Reminds me off Clarence Seedorf a lot in these clips. Looks very good though of course it is yotube. What I didnt know and sounds very good for him as a potential signins is his versatility to play left back as well as all positions in central midfield.
 
Allan would have been another option, but he was bought by Udinese recently. He has been there on loan the seasons before. Allan might be the most similar player to Vidal from the few bits I've seen from him, could be wrong though. He isn't as good offensively, but defensively he seems to be a beast.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...yer-the-epl-big-guns-should-target-in-janaury

L. Bender, Mario Suarez, Gonalons, Schneiderlin, Kramer, Geis, Saul Niguez, Pjanic, Strootman, Illarramendi, Iturraspe, Fernando (Donetsk)

Kramer, Geis and Saul Niguez are probably not good enough as it is, but I wouldn't mind to have Geis or Saul Niguez as back-up. Schneiderlin would be my choice from that lot. IMO we should buy one of those even if we get Vidal. If we don't get Vidal, then two.

Edit: six alternatives for Manchester United

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/features...o-six-alternatives-manchester-united-consider

Top post, good knowledge.
 
Tielemans looks very talented but he's only 17, it would be great to buy him and develop him but it would be a bit much to expect him to be able to jump right into our first team squad.
 
Just looked him up. Played the whole season for Anderlecht aged just sixteen. That's impressive, definitely one to keep an eye out for.

Yeah I noticed he'd been an ever present for them last season and certainly looks very good, but I'm not sure how good the league he is playing in is, he might be the type of player to buy early rather than letting him go to a mid level club who will then want £40M for him in 3 years time.
 
Reality is beginning to set in for the muppets. Vidal and Herrera would have never worked in our system, unless we drop one of them or play the 1-2-3-2-1-2 formation. I never wanted him as first choice as I believe we need a number 6, not a number 8. Strootman, william Carvalho, and even Scheinerderlin are more ideal signings. I believe Van Gaal wants Strootman and as such, we may not get a number 6 until January.

Personally, I would be fine with either Kevin Strootman or William Carvalho as our number 6, while we add another number 8 in Mateo Kovacic to give Herrera some competition and not put an overeliance on Cleverley as his backup.

Vidal is great at everything in midfield. He has a lot more to his defensive game than Herrera. That is why a lot of people rate him higher than Yaya who right now doesn't put as much effort defensively. Don't let Vidal's goal scoring fool you into thinking he's all about attacking.
 
William Carvalho, Song, Strootman, Khedira, Martinez, Sneijder... and to a lesser extent, guys like Tiote and Sandro would be good.

I'd like to eat something healthy like vegetables, lean proteins, fruits....and to a lesser extent, foods like deep fried mars bars and triple bacon cheese burgers would be good.
 
This is a bit of an OT post but I've been contemplating United's transfer plan for a while and IMO our whole scheme needs a bit of an overhaul in the sense that chucking money on massive wages and fees may not be the most progressive option going forward. Firstly looking around at the business Chelsea, Madrid, Barcelona pull in terms of selling players, I'm a bit dismayed that apart from Cristiano Ronaldo most of our purchases from the last odd decade has bee moved on for a significant loss in discord with the general principle of buying low and selling high. So much so that some of them are now seemingly unsellable and we'll have to largely subsidize any future moves. For all the talk of value IMO we've missed on some spectacularly cheap deals while splurging on rather average players.

This is kind of the opposite of what we did in 2006 signing Vidic, Evra, Van der Sar for less than a combined € 20 million - players that were the bedrock for perhaps the most successful period in our history. Looking around Europe there's something to be admired with some of the most effective midfields and the moneyball-esque transfer dealings by those clubs. Whether by design, sheer coincidence or opportunism they've found really cost effective deals for young talents, misfits and outcasts in equal measure all the while building a midfield quite stronger than ours on a budget lesser than or around one Fellaini (no offence).


Juventus :

Andrea Pirlo - Bosman
Arturo Vidal - Even back when transfrerred from Leverkusen, Vidal was an excellent midfielder. So the € 11 million was excellent in hindsight.
Paul Pogba - Bosman

Borussia Dortmund :

Sven Bender - One of the finest defensive midfielders around. Signed for an undisclosed fee thought to be around € 4 million.
Ilkay Gundogan - Was one of the best midfielders in Europe in 2012-2013. Signed in 2011 for just € 6 million from Nurnberg, a value that grew over five times in a single season.
Milos Jojic - Signed from Partizan for € 3 million.

AS Roma :

Miralem Pjanic - 11 million Lyon.
Kevin Strootman - 17 million.
Radja Naingollan - 3 million fee rising by 9 million Cagliari.

Atletico Madrid -

Gabi - Came through Atletico's ranks but was sold to Zaragoza. Later bought for € 3 million and was arguably one of the best central midfielders in Europe these past couple of seasons.
Tiago - Had a dramatic loss of form at consecutive clubs - Chelsea, Lyon and Juventus. Was loaned in from Juventus and later signed on a Bosman transfer.

Paris Saint Germain -

Thiago Motta - Was unhappy at Internazionale and felt undermined by Claudio Ranieri. Signed for € 10million.
Mlaise Matuidi - Bought from Saint Etienne for € 7.5 million when he was a relatively unknown player.
Marco Verratti - One of the brightest young talents in world football. Bought from Pescara for just € 12 million.
Adrien Rabiot - Had a terrible stint at city and after a loan spell at Pau was signed on a Bosman.

While I do think we need and crave a marquee signing maybe over a longer time frame the club needs to develop the nose for a bargain and actively scout extensively for undervalued/ young but promising players ready to explode and put together a competitive side relatively cheaply. That's probably the most sustainable model in the long term and also ties in with the philosophy that United makes stars, not buy them off the shelf.
Well said, we have certainly underperformed in recruitment over the past five or six years and it's come back to bite us in the arse. Something is definitely broken in our football structure because it shouldn't happen to a club of this size for such a sustained period.
 
I wouldnt mind Classie, not sure he's ready to come into 1st team, and LVG knows him better than most, but think he'll develop to be a good CM.

If not Vidal then Khedira is probably the next best who is potentially available in my opinion. Loads of experience, may well demand a wage but probably rightly so. We pay others at the club good money, as long as its within the realms of realistic values then think he'd be a good addition.
 
If we are looking a for a proper defensive midfielder i think Gustavo would be perfect and unlike Carvalho is proven, youngish and would cost less.
 
Not important. We are not signing a midfielder in this transfer window.

I'd like us to have a look at Bender from Leverkusen though. Should be available and the last time their top midfielder left for a bigger club for €12m we ended up chasing him for five times the price a couple years later. They've got a history of good midfielders with Ballack and Ze Roberto pullign the strings in the past.
 
I wouldn't mind Khedira tbh. Isn't it too many players in RM already?
Khedira at €20m would be an excellent deal. Either him or Illarramendi if we are going to strip Real Madrid off their midfielders.
 
Well said, we have certainly underperformed in recruitment over the past five or six years and it's come back to bite us in the arse. Something is definitely broken in our football structure because it shouldn't happen to a club of this size for such a sustained period.

I think it had more to do with Ferguson not wanting a midfielder. He was very stubborn, especially towards the end of his career, and at times it looked like he neglected the issue on purpose.
 
I'd like to eat something healthy like vegetables, lean proteins, fruits....and to a lesser extent, foods like deep fried mars bars and triple bacon cheese burgers would be good.
Sandro is fine but would probably cost a bomb seeing as it'd be Tottenham selling, Tiote is downright ridiculous.
 
If we are looking a for a proper defensive midfielder i think Gustavo would be perfect and unlike Carvalho is proven, youngish and would cost less.
Where does this idea come from? Gustavo would cost a fortune, Wolfsburg would not want to sell and have no need to.
 
Where does this idea come from? Gustavo would cost a fortune, Wolfsburg would not want to sell and have no need to.

Carvalho release clause is a ridiculous 37 million. I've read varying reports saying between 25-30 for Gustavo.
 
Wolfsburg are apparently signing Guivalogui for 14m who I believe is a DM.
 
If we don't get Vidal this summer, we still need to sign another CM and cannot afford to wait for Strootman in January, that's for sure.
 
If we are looking a for a proper defensive midfielder i think Gustavo would be perfect and unlike Carvalho is proven, youngish and would cost less.

Can't take him seriously as a footballer sporting that ridiculous lip wig
 
This is a bit of an OT post but I've been contemplating United's transfer plan for a while and IMO our whole scheme needs a bit of an overhaul in the sense that chucking money on massive wages and fees may not be the most progressive option going forward. Firstly looking around at the business Chelsea, Madrid, Barcelona pull in terms of selling players, I'm a bit dismayed that apart from Cristiano Ronaldo most of our purchases from the last odd decade has bee moved on for a significant loss in discord with the general principle of buying low and selling high. So much so that some of them are now seemingly unsellable and we'll have to largely subsidize any future moves. For all the talk of value IMO we've missed on some spectacularly cheap deals while splurging on rather average players.

This is kind of the opposite of what we did in 2006 signing Vidic, Evra, Van der Sar for less than a combined € 20 million - players that were the bedrock for perhaps the most successful period in our history. Looking around Europe there's something to be admired with some of the most effective midfields and the moneyball-esque transfer dealings by those clubs. Whether by design, sheer coincidence or opportunism they've found really cost effective deals for young talents, misfits and outcasts in equal measure all the while building a midfield quite stronger than ours on a budget lesser than or around one Fellaini (no offence).


...

While I do think we need and crave a marquee signing maybe over a longer time frame the club needs to develop the nose for a bargain and actively scout extensively for undervalued/ young but promising players ready to explode and put together a competitive side relatively cheaply. That's probably the most sustainable model in the long term and also ties in with the philosophy that United makes stars, not buy them off the shelf.
Agree. I also think our scouting has been not as good as it should.

It also was very limited, very focused on domestic league, i think we should closer look at Europe, especially seeing how transfer fee are low there and how low are the salaries. So it's not that big of a loss even if a player does not make it.
 
If we are looking a for a proper defensive midfielder i think Gustavo would be perfect and unlike Carvalho is proven, youngish and would cost less.
Right now in 3-5-2 we need someone with a more bite going forward. That's why Strootman and Vidal's are constantly linked with us.
 
Agree. I also think our scouting has been not as good as it should.

It also was very limited, very focused on domestic league, i think we should closer look at Europe, especially seeing how transfer fee are low there and how low are the salaries. So it's not that big of a loss even if a player does not make it.
I think it will improve with Van Gaal. Sir Alex in his latter years focused primarily on premier league proven bar few from foreign leagues but those were often cheap buys.
 
Strootman is the best option but we can't wait till January to buy another midfielder. I hope Van gaal knows that but I haven't got a clue who it could be.
 
Not important. We are not signing a midfielder in this transfer window.

I'd like us to have a look at Bender from Leverkusen though. Should be available and the last time their top midfielder left for a bigger club for €12m we ended up chasing him for five times the price a couple years later. They've got a history of good midfielders with Ballack and Ze Roberto pullign the strings in the past.


I don't think so. They supposedly already turned down offers in the region of €25m for him in the past (Arsenal and Bayern were the supposed bidders iirc), despite that he recently signed a contract extension until 2019 (supposedly without a clause) and they sort of made him the public face of the club.
I also think that his last season was rather mediocre.
Vidal's contract was running out at the end of the season when they sold him (and he supposedly already had agreed terms with Bayern). That was a completely different situation.
Also the situation at the top of Bundesliga (read: spot 3-4) has changed. Schalke already have more money and prestige than Leverkusen and with their recent flood of youngsters from their academy they really threaten to leave them behind.
Then you have Wolfsburg who finally seem to have a competent leadership (as well as a shitload of money obviously) and Gladbach with a great coach and what right now seems to be a very smartly handled transfer window pressuring them from behind.
The battle for the CL spots should be extremely tough/close this season and under those circumstances I don't see them selling one of their most important players two weeks before they kick off the season (against Dortmund of all clubs).
 
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