Celebrity Allegations, #MeToo etc

I had a conversation about this last night and pretty much every girl at the table mentioned how they'd been sexually harassed. Pretty mental but i'm well on this cause for giving people a reason to get those moments out in the open. I guess the initial 'metoo' element is supposed to open up discussion further and it seems to be doing its job well.

Working in bars sounds like the #1 way to get sexually harassed in some way.
 
vi1lain said:
Yeah it's pretty much a meme at this point.
It started out usually in response to serious topics like sexual assault, rape etc. but now extends to futile things like preferring pepsi over coke or something.

That's not to say that it doesn't have a reason for existing, throughout history men have shown themselves to be pretty trash.

If it doesn't apply to you, then I don't see why it should garner a response from you, or why someone's usage should somehow evoke a reaction.
Also I don't really get the point in being frustrated at seeing 'men are trash' then insinuating that there's something wrong with being a feminist, or referring to some women as 'angry man haters', it's a little ironic, surely? Why insult others, if you don't like to be insulted either, especially when they didn't even target you?
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Fair enough. I didn't say there was anything wrong with being a feminist though? I thought I inferred the opposite. I know women who are doing really positive things for other women, revolving around encouragement and support, and I'm massively proud of them.

While it's fairly insulting to be lumped in with Stern and Weinstein etc (regardless of what our ancestors may have done throughout history, which we have nothing to do with), if only for a minute, it's more about the damage a men v women mentality causes, when really it needs to be (and mostly is), men and women v pieces of shit. Anything else just causes distraction and unnecessary conflict.
 
Buchan said:
Watson, so vocal on feminist issues before, is noticeably silent on this one. She's not alone in this regard either. The silence from the Hollywood elite is deafening.
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Jessica Chastein spoke out and I’m sure I read Kate Winslet said Something as well. The article I read was by Piers calling her a hypocrite for casticising Harvey Weinstein and then being in the next Woody Allen film and previously being in 2 Polanski films. Both people accused of sexual harassment, Polanski supposedly drugged and raped a 13 yr old if I remember correctly. His step daughter or adopted daughter Something Farrow was her name.
 
VeevaVee said:
Fair enough. I didn't say there was anything wrong with being a feminist though? I thought I inferred the opposite. I know women who are doing really positive things for other women, revolving around encouragement and support, and I'm massively proud of them.

While it's fairly insulting to be lumped in with Stern and Weinstein etc (regardless of what our ancestors may have done throughout history, which we have nothing to do with), if only for a minute, it's more about the damage a men v women mentality causes, when really it needs to be (and mostly is), men and women v pieces of shit. Anything else just causes distraction and unnecessary conflict.
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I think it was more implied, but that could be me reading a lot in to it, there's a lot of subtle underhanded nastiness when people speak about feminism online.

And I agree with you in the sense that it should be both men and women uniting against those individuals (both male and female) who choose to intentionally cause harm. That being said, occasionally calling some men trash when they do trash things doesn't cause any harm except to those who have caused the initial offence.
 
vi1lain said:
I think it was more implied, but that could be me reading a lot in to it, there's a lot of subtle underhanded nastiness when people speak about feminism online.

And I agree with you in the sense that it should be both men and women uniting against those individuals (both male and female) who choose to intentionally cause harm. That being said, occasionally calling some men trash when they do trash things doesn't cause any harm except to those who have caused the initial offence.
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Any 'nastiness' was directed at those that only divide further, while also saying how much they want things to improve. Not real feminism in my eyes. By the definition, I'm a feminist, and I don't see them as helping anything. They're a minority, but they can have a really strong voice too.

If it's hate directed at those who deserve it, there's obviously no problem, and I'll probably be joining in. But to act like all men do isn't good. I mean, you brushed it off yourself up there, as if because men historically treated women badly that those who haven't deserve to be on the receiving end a bit now. That's something I've read before and it's a bit weird, when you think about it.
 
Big Andy said:
I was once taken advantage of as a young lad by a womens hockey team on a night out, whereby they saw young me, off my tits, and decided to pull down my pants and write their names on my bare arse in permanent pen against my will...

#metoo
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I’ve had a similar experience, was dragged in to a woman’s bathroom stripped naked and drawn all over when I was 16. Actually don’t know if you’ve ever had a kilt on but the amount of woman who lift up your kilt and try to get a look is quite ridiculous. It gets annoying really quickly. They thinks it’s funny and a joke and most men do just laugh it off as that but could you imagine the outrage if you did something similar.

It’s something both sexes need to eradicate.
 
VeevaVee said:
Any 'nastiness' was directed at those that only divide further, while also saying how much they want things to improve. Not real feminism in my eyes. By the definition, I'm a feminist, and I don't see them as helping anything. They're a minority, but they can have a really strong voice too.

If it's hate directed at those who deserve it, there's obviously no problem, and I'll probably be joining in. But to act like all men do isn't good. I mean, you brushed it off yourself up there, as if because men historically treated women badly that those who haven't deserve to be on the receiving end a bit now. That's something I've read before and it's a bit weird, when you think about it.
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It's not 'all men are trash' it's just 'men are trash', and usually said in response to an individual or a group of individuals doing something. The scale of severity of that something can vary, which is why I said it's pretty much become a meme now.

There aren't swathes of women calling all men trash, sure there might be a small amount who do, but no way are they representative of the many.
It's not really that much to kick up a fuss about given the context.
 
Zarlak said:
Comedians make hundreds of millions in earnings yearly from jokes about rape, murder, incest, kidnapping, paedophilia in the Catholic church etc showing that these subjects are objectively funny to millions of people when done in a certain way and clearly not at any point saying that the act itself is a laughing matter. I'm not sure why you're getting so pissy about this, someone made a joke that a lot of people laughed at and you didn't find funny, so what. Move on. The posts that offended you have now been removed. Humour is subjective, you didn't like the joke and other people did. So what, that happens every day.
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I'd like to highlight that I didn't say a word about the jokes - they were not removed with any input from me, I didn't report them. I'd also like to say I'm hardly kicking up a massive fuss there either. Thirdly, this is in the context of a general debate on the site about sexist posting etc. Fourthly, there's even a bleedin' meme on this site about no rape jokes please.

These "jokes" are making light of my friend's experiences and implying something vile about me. Am I supposed to let that pass?

I'll leave it at that.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
I'd like to highlight that I didn't say a word about the jokes - they were not removed with any input from me. I'd also like to say I'm hardly kicking up a massive fuss there either. Thirdly, this is in the context of a general debate on the site about sexist posting etc. Fourthly, there's even a bleedin' meme on this site about no rape jokes please.

These "jokes" are making light of my friend's experiences and implying something vile about me. Am I supposed to let that pass?

I'll leave it at that.
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You made about 5 posts kicking off about it at the time which were also deleted. And yes. It didn't imply anything serious about you, it wasn't an accusation. It was a joke, which means it doesn't imply anything vile about you because everybody knows the intent. It would only imply something vile about you if it was a legitimate accusation. You overreacted, and you're still overreacting now with the 'have a word with yourself'. You didn't find the joke funny, others did. Nothing to see here. That should be the end of it. Also, the joke didn't make light of your friends experience in the slightest. It didn't even reference what happened to your friends. If you truly believe that the people here think what happened to your friends isn't that big a deal then you're the one who needs to have a word with yourself. If you understand that nobody here thinks that, then you also by proxy understand that they weren't making light of what happened to them. The severity of their experience, and the context of this joke are two very different things that in no way relate to each other. You should know that just as common knowledge. Take it for what it was, not for what you imagine it to be.
 
Zarlak said:
You made about 5 posts kicking off about it at the time which were also deleted. And yes. It didn't imply anything serious about you, it wasn't an accusation. It was a joke, which means it doesn't imply anything vile about you because everybody knows the intent. It would only imply something vile about you if it was a legitimate accusation. You overreacted, and you're still overreacting now with the 'have a word with yourself'. You didn't find the joke funny, others did. Nothing to see here. That should be the end of it. Also, the joke didn't make light of your friends experience in the slightest. It didn't even reference what happened to your friends. If you truly believe that the people here think what happened to your friends isn't that big a deal then you're the one who needs to have a word with yourself. If you understand that nobody here thinks that, then you also by proxy understand that they weren't making light of what happened to them. The severity of their experience, and the context of this joke are two very different things that in no way relate to each other. You should know that just as common knowledge. Take it for what it was, not for what you imagine it to be.
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Five!! Try two. I answered the guy with "No. Feck sake", then later made a second post to say that 14 people had quoted it with a smiley and asking was it really all that funny. About 12 words in total. How about you leave this go and return to the subject matter of this topic?

I really don't know why you're on a high horse about this. It's nothing to do with you.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
Five!! Try two. I answered the guy with "No. Feck sake", then later made a second post to say that 14 people had quoted it with a smiley and asking was it really all that funny. How about you leave this go and return to the subject matter of this topic?

I really don't know why you're on a high horse about this. It's nothing to do with you.
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I literally quoted you being on your high horse over it to RedTillDead, when you're the one who over reacted to begin with. You didn't like a joke that other people found funny, move on. You're now talking shit about people making light of your friends experiences which is an accusation in itself that needs defending, hence the ongoing conversation. You're making up things that never happened to make it look worse than it was. Happy to drop it, but I just quoted you getting high and mighty over it with your 'have a word with yourself, thanks'
 
unchanged_lineup said:
Five!! Try two. I answered the guy with "No. Feck sake", then later made a second post to say that 14 people had quoted it with a smiley and asking was it really all that funny. About 12 words in total. How about you leave this go and return to the subject matter of this topic?

I really don't know why you're on a high horse about this. It's nothing to do with you.
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Dude, calm down. The caf has been way too serious lately, just try and laugh it off.
 
Zarlak said:
I literally quoted you being on your high horse over it to RedTillDead, when you're the one who over reacted to begin with. You didn't like a joke that other people found funny, move on. You're now talking shit about people making light of your friends experiences which is an accusation in itself that needs defending, hence the ongoing conversation. You're making up things that never happened to make it look worse than it was. Happy to drop it, but I just quoted you getting high and mighty over it with your 'have a word with yourself, thanks'
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Won't be replying to this.
 
vi1lain said:
It's not 'all men are trash' it's just 'men are trash', and usually said in response to an individual or a group of individuals doing something. The scale of severity of that something can vary, which is why I said it's pretty much become a meme now.

There aren't swathes of women calling all men trash, sure there might be a small amount who do, but no way are they representative of the many.
It's not really that much to kick up a fuss about given the context.
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I guess so. To be fair, by biting and mentioning it on here, I'm causing the distraction
 
vi1lain said:
It's not 'all men are trash' it's just 'men are trash', and usually said in response to an individual or a group of individuals doing something. The scale of severity of that something can vary, which is why I said it's pretty much become a meme now.

There aren't swathes of women calling all men trash, sure there might be a small amount who do, but no way are they representative of the many.
It's not really that much to kick up a fuss about given the context.
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I'll just add that I've seen a few angry people saying and/or writing all men. But I tend to just think there are extremes on each side. Some "feminist" want to punish men who had nothing to do with the system they now see as oppressing them, while on the other hand there still exist bastards like Weinstein who will create those systems.

Also, women and men who encounter the jokes I laid out earlier in comparison without knowing that they are jokes (not everyone cares about feminism or online stuff like the current campaign), and I'm such a way a joke about women in the kitchen or hating all men could be mistaken for the jokers actual views and be insulting.
 
Frank Grimes said:
Haven't been following everything about this case but this is by far the best thing I have read regarding it:http://mashable.com/2017/10/16/scott-rosenberg-screenwriter-weinstein-hollywood/#XxQJ8B8dmOOT
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A reasonably honest acknowledgement of complicity. Maybe a bit too much of a writerly tour de force though. Sincerity is best served by a more sober style.

I like the way he pours scorn on the sham outrage of those who worked hand in glove with Weinstein for years. On the other hand he does echo the politically correct cliche of admiration for the 'bravery' of the women who've spoken out. What's brave about speaking out now? Planting one more stiletto heel in the groin of Weinstein's corpse requires no great courage.
 
Tarantino has come out and acknowledged he knew about Harvey's behavior but he didn't do something about it and he feels sorry for it.

Hollywood is rotten.
 
VorZakone said:
Tarantino has come out and acknowledged he knew about Harvey's behavior but he didn't do something about it and he feels sorry for it.

Hollywood is rotten.
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In my opinion that's disgraceful.

More men need to hold other men accountable.
 
JPRouve said:
I don't understand that sentence.
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What's not to understand?
Tarrantino knew of Harvey's behaviour and didn't hold him accountable for it.
No doubt he's not the only one, but he's one of the few who yield a certain amount of power to be able to do something about it and he even acknowledged that, the article I read, he said that he knew of Harvey's behaviour for 20 years, and he 'knew enough to do more than I did' that's damning and reflects incredibly poorly on him.

If others who hold a similar amount of power in Hollywood hold their peers more accountable this thing wouldn't go on for as long as it has done.
 
I struggle to see it being put on us random men not a part of the happenings in Hollywood or who know of issues ourselves. I think it's meant to be on those within the system that let it go.

I do struggle on seeing how we can argue that women can fear for their career but men can't. I do think more should come forward. I'd like that, but as it cannot be expected or held against victims I'm not sure if it can be held against those of men that aren't doing like Affleck & Damon has been accused of doing, especially if they try to be there for the victims however way they think they can within the fears they have themselves.

Obviously i hope they properly get this out of the business, and generally around the world so we can start being as civil as a lot of people like myself want to believe humanity to be.
 
vi1lain said:
What's not to understand?
Tarrantino knew of Harvey's behaviour and didn't hold him accountable for it.
No doubt he's not the only one, but he's one of the few who yield a certain amount of power to be able to do something about it and he even acknowledged that, the article I read, he said that he knew of Harvey's behaviour for 20 years, and he 'knew enough to do more than I did' that's damning and reflects incredibly poorly on him.

If others who hold a similar amount of power in Hollywood hold their peers more accountable this thing wouldn't go on for as long as it has done.
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At which point the fact that he is a man become relevant? It's not.

He should have done something about it because he knew about it not because he is a man, the same is right for all the woman who knew about it.
 
I'll read that Tarantino article once my morphine induced headache goes away. ^^
 
JPRouve said:
At which point the fact that he is a man become relevant? It's not.

He should have done something about it because he knew about it not because he is a man, the same is right for all the woman who knew about it.
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You took fault with only men being singled out?
In this case, it involved two men, and one of those men didn't hold the other man accountable which is why I said what I said.

Sure, if you want to generalise the comment, everybody should hold everybody else accountable.
 
What's sad is how obsessed people are with celebs, I don't think many Tarantino-fans will give a damn about this at all, that's how much faith I have in humans.
 
vi1lain said:
What's not to understand?
Tarrantino knew of Harvey's behaviour and didn't hold him accountable for it.
No doubt he's not the only one, but he's one of the few who yield a certain amount of power to be able to do something about it and he even acknowledged that, the article I read, he said that he knew of Harvey's behaviour for 20 years, and he 'knew enough to do more than I did' that's damning and reflects incredibly poorly on him.

If others who hold a similar amount of power in Hollywood hold their peers more accountable this thing wouldn't go on for as long as it has done.
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Depends what you mean by "holding him accountable" and which part of Tarantino's behaviour we find reprehensible. Tarantino knowing that Weinstein was a sexual predator does not mean he has evidence to go to the Police or the DA. If he did have evidence and didn't do anything, then he is complicit as is anyone else who did and did not act.

It's worth remembering that powerful as Tarantino is, he's still significantly below Weinstein who's a Production company boss. Tarantino directed movies bankrolled by Miramax and the Weinstein Company. In other words Weinstein was the guy who gave him jobs and was his paymaster. Going to war with Weinstein would have cost him dearly as much as any of the actors and actresses who knew about it and also kept mum.

If we want people who wield as much power as Weinstein to not be above the law, we need to create a system where we can protect (to an extent) the people that are willing to report them. Especially when the former (Producer and Financier) has significant power over the latter (Director or Actor). Because from where I'm sitting, unethical and immoral as I find his actions, I can't apportion more blame on Tarantino than anyone else who knew didn't speak.
 
vi1lain said:
You took fault with only men being singled out?
In this case, it involved two men, and one of those men didn't hold the other man accountable which is why I said what I said.

Sure, if you want to generalise the comment, everybody should hold everybody else accountable.
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To me you are completely wrong because you make it a gender thing when it's clear that it's a money/power thing. People from all sex and from all conditions should hold sexual offenders accountable, the biggest problem here is that Weinstein was powerful enough to destroy a career and it kept people in line, people need to show a little bit of altruism.
 
MadMike said:
Depends what you mean by "holding him accountable" and which part of Tarantino's behaviour we find reprehensible. Tarantino knowing that Weinstein was a sexual predator does not mean he has evidence to go to the Police or the DA. If he did have evidence and didn't do anything, then he is complicit as is anyone else who did and did not act.

It's worth remembering that powerful as Tarantino is, he's still significantly below Weinstein who's a Production company boss. Tarantino directed movies bankrolled by Miramax and the Weinstein Company. In other words Weinstein was the guy who gave him jobs and was his paymaster. Going to war with Weinstein would have cost him dearly as much as any of the actors and actresses who knew about it and also kept mum.

If we want people who wield as much power as Weinstein to not be above the law, we need to create a system where we can protect (to an extent) the people that are willing to report them. Especially when the former (Producer and Financier) has significant power over the latter (Director or Actor). Because from where I'm sitting, unethical and immoral as I find his actions, I can't apportion more blame on Tarantino than anyone else who knew didn't speak.
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I think the fact that he did nothing but knew of multiple instances over decades, and continued to work with him is reprehensible.

One of the instances involved his ex girlfriend, and i'm not suggesting he could take him down, but Tarantino himself admitted that he could have done more.

I don't see how it's acceptable to pin blame on the victims of sexual assault at the hands of Weinstein because they didn't say anything for years. The ones who knew of Weinstein's actions need to be held to a much higher standard.

JPRouve said:
To me you are completely wrong because you make it a gender thing when it's clear that it's a money/power thing. People from all sex and from all conditions should hold sexual offenders accountable, the biggest problem here is that Weinstein was powerful enough to destroy a career and it kept people in line, people need to show a little bit of altruism.
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Except that most of the powerful people in Hollywood are men. Most producers and executives are men, and women hold very few positions of power. Add that to the fact that most sexual assaults are carried out by men, on both men and women and you simply can't dismiss gender altogether.
But we can agree to disagree.
 
vi1lain said:
I think the fact that he did nothing but knew of multiple instances over decades, and continued to work with him is reprehensible.

One of the instances involved his ex girlfriend, and i'm not suggesting he could take him down, but Tarantino himself admitted that he could have done more.

I don't see how it's acceptable to pin blame on the victims of sexual assault at the hands of Weinstein because they didn't say anything for years. The ones who knew of Weinstein's actions need to be held to a much higher standard.



Except that most of the powerful people in Hollywood are men. Most producers and executives are men, and women hold very few positions of power. Add that to the fact that most sexual assaults are carried out by men, on both men and women and you simply can't dismiss gender altogether.
But we can agree to disagree.
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Just want to clarify, you mean those (likely) men that were out of Weinsteins grasp of power should have stood up to him? Agree fully.
But people are taking it (i think) as you saying even the men who can be crushed by Weinstein should have spoken up, despite that being a defending point for a lot of victims.

Mind, I still havent read that Tarantino article, but I believe the discussion moved more towards general terms instead of Tarantinos case specifically.
 
vi1lain said:
Except that most of the powerful people in Hollywood are men. Most producers and executives are men, and women hold very few positions of power. Add that to the fact that most sexual assaults are carried out by men, on both men and women and you simply can't dismiss gender altogether.
But we can agree to disagree.
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And they said nothing because of money, you are putting aside the most important aspect of the problem, the reason why everyone stay silent. Also the amount of women in positions of power is irrelevant, they acted like the rest because it was never a matter of gender but money and power.

To put it simply, if Weinstein wasn't powerful, he would have been in trouble a long time ago, the fact that he was a man would have been irrelevant. Powerful people need to hold other powerful people accountable, that's the crucial take of that scandal.
 
vi1lain said:
I think the fact that he did nothing but knew of multiple instances over decades, and continued to work with him is reprehensible.

One of the instances involved his ex girlfriend, and i'm not suggesting he could take him down, but Tarantino himself admitted that he could have done more.

I don't see how it's acceptable to pin blame on the victims of sexual assault at the hands of Weinstein because they didn't say anything for years. The ones who knew of Weinstein's actions need to be held to a much higher standard.
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I don't think anybody reasonable is blaming the victims. That's a bit of a strawman argument, or entertaining the opinions of a very few lunatics.

I think Tarantino is as much to blame as other directors or major movie stars who knew about it but did nothing. Tarantino is showing some remorse over his lack of altruism publicly (whether we buy it or not is another issue) which others are not, they are all hiding behind the "he was too powerful for us to go against him" curtain. And I'm saying that technically speaking that curtain is there for Tarantino too, whether he chooses to hide behind it or not. Bob Weinstein fecking knew about it for years and he's as powerful as his brother but he covered for him all these years.

vi1lain said:
Except that most of the powerful people in Hollywood are men. Most producers and executives are men, and women hold very few positions of power. Add that to the fact that most sexual assaults are carried out by men, on both men and women and you simply can't dismiss gender altogether.
But we can agree to disagree.
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Most powerful people in Hollywood are men. Are white. Are Jewish. Shall we blame it on the Jews? :p
 
MadMike said:
I don't think anybody reasonable is blaming the victims. That's a bit of a strawman argument, entertaining the opinions of a very few lunatics.

I think Tarantino is as much to blame as other directors or major movie stars who knew about it but did nothing. Tarantino is showing some remorse over his lack of altruism publicly (whether we buy it or not is another issue) which others are not, they are all hiding behind the "he was too powerful for us to go against him" curtain. And I'm saying that technically speaking that curtain is there for Tarantino too, whether he chooses to hide behind it or not. Bob Weinstein fecking knew about it for years and he's as powerful as his brother but he covered for him all these years.



Most powerful people in Hollywood are men. Are white. Are Jewish. Shall we blame it on the Jews? :p
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If his brother knew, then he for sure would be one of the people that should be held accountable if the law makes it possible.
 
JPRouve said:
To put it simply, if Weinstein wasn't powerful, he would have been in trouble a long time ago, the fact that he was a man would have been irrelevant.
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Julia Phillips, Oscar winner & author of You'll Never Eat Lunch In This Town Again:
Most significant, from Phillips' own point of view, is her exposé of the "Boys' Club" in the higher echelons of Hollywood, where she claimed it was her gender that led to her ultimate ostracism. "If I had been a man, they would have closed ranks around me", she said, referring to her drug addiction.
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