Celebrity Allegations, #MeToo etc

RedDevil@84 said:
I think the campaign doesn't achieve much. Pretty much every girl I have encountered has at least one story. There are different levels of sexual harassment. A girl being abused at home regularly is not the same as a girl who was groped in a packed bus/train is not the same as girl who was cat called a few times.
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Isn't that sort of the point? It's meant to highlight how widespread it is, not how rare.

You're right that there are different levels of sexual harassment but each example you gave is bad on its own terms. The fact that being catcalled made them feel shit doesn't devalue the worse experiences other people had, or vice versa.
 
sullydnl said:
Isn't that sort of the point? It's meant to highlight how widespread it is, not how rare.

You're right that there are different levels of sexual harassment but each example you gave is bad on its own terms. The fact that being catcalled made them feel shit doesn't devalue the worse experiences other people had, or vice versa.
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My point was many men would already know that these kinds of minor to major harassment exist in society. I highly doubt if majority live in denial. While being cat called is also bad, but the need to put the culprits behind bars for it is not as urgent as putting a rapist behind bars, at least in terms of danger to the society.
 
RedDevil@84 said:
I think the campaign doesn't achieve much. Pretty much every girl I have encountered has at least one story. There are different levels of sexual harassment. A girl being abused at home regularly is not the same as a girl who was groped in a packed bus/train is not the same as girl who was cat called a few times.
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wrong. The campaign will achieve success and consequences.



Pandora's box has been opened. (or closed?)
 
RedDevil@84 said:
My point was many men would already know that these kinds of minor to major harassment exist in society. I highly doubt if majority live in denial. While being cat called is also bad, but the need to put the culprits behind bars for it is not as urgent as putting a rapist behind bars, at least in terms of danger to the society.
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I guess the other point of it is that you might see a story from someone you actually know about rather than some stranger? I mean it's one thing to know it happens a lot in a general sense but it's another to actually hear it happened to someone you care about.

Also, some people who might not normally share that kind of thing with people on a one-to-one basis might actually feel more comfortable bringing it up as part of this public voice, weird though that seems. The fact that the stories mentioned cover such a broad area should at least have the effect of making everyone who wants to share feel like their story "counts".

Plus if nothing else it's generated discussion, as proven by the two fairly serious threads that have popped up on this site as a result.

I'd say with all that considered it has probably achieved enough for something that doesn't have any real downside.
 
MadMike said:
From how he tells it. Harvey Weinstein is an angel from how he tells it. We don't know how she tells it. She could well describe it as a creepy, horny teenager started following her home off the bus and thank god he backed off when she talked about husband and kids cause feck knows what could have happened next. Stuff of nightmares and fits right in with what I've been reading these last few days. Perception of the situation is key and it can be very different to the participants. (sorry @buchansleftleg, I'm only using you as an example of a grey area situation)

The second bolded bit is the crux of the matter. For me teaching boys/men to back off, that no means no, that even if you think you were being led on you still have to back off when she says no....that's the important stuff. Not to have men not talking to women for fear of scaring them or annoying them though. A guy with charisma and good looks seems charming and a guy without it seems creepy. Both should be encouraged to try their luck. It happens to be annoyed by an approach some times and that's ok too, but that shouldn't stop people approaching.

Ultimately if rape and severe non-consensual contact were not that common, the out of the blue approach would not be so scary to some women. It's the former we need to reduce by whatever means, but that means cannot be men not trying to approach women. And that's what I find a bit over top with some of these #MeToo tags that report any unsolicited approach however mild it is.

And a final note. Rape and sexual abuse is not going away. The same way murder is not going away and muggins are not going away. Humans can be shitty and shitty things will happen. What we need is to decrease their number so it's not an immediate worry for so many women. To create better support and report systems, better prevention, better protection and worse repercussions for abusers and offenders so they don't get away it for years like Weinstein did.
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I'm not sure you're agreeing or disagreeing with me. I feel lost. :nervous:
 
Bobcat said:
Agreed, if we start to classify basic human interaction as sexual harassment or whatnot then we are on a slippery slope. Now howling at someone at the street while driving by might be off color and maybe a bit mental, but even that i would call a pretty mild form of harassment, if at all.
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Then again, you're not the one having to deal with it.
 
MadMike said:
I feel irritated with many people for many different reasons. I feel irritated at the dude that takes 10" to start off from the traffic light. At the old woman that stops dead on the pavement during rush hour, to gaze at a shop window. At the guy that smokes out on his balcony and the smoke sometimes (wind depending) drifts into my flat from my open windows. At my dimwitted co-worker who asks me the same mundane questions about my weekend every Monday morning, without me ever giving any hint of interest in engaging in a proper chat with him. Life is full of fecking irritations. Are those people harassing me?

Newflash.
Harassment: The act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands.

Key components to harassment are a) approach is definitely unwanted and b) it's continuing after it's been made clear that it's unwanted. Approaching a complete stranger with nothing but talk is not harassment. It can at best be seen as an irritation depending on your circumstances. If you tell them to feck off (politely or otherwise) and they keep persisting, that's when it becomes harassment. We live in a society. It's ok to be irritated some times.
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Irritated was the wrong word. I should leave it for one of our women posters to describe it.

I would just say though that you can personalize it a bit easily enough. You're walking down the street and someone shouts 'Hey sexy, looking good. What's your name?' to your mum or sister. Does that make you feel 'irritated' like a random bloke talking to you?
 
Kentonio said:
Then again, you're not the one having to deal with it.
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I don't see flirting or the general dating game as something you have to "deal with". I know women have to deal with a lot more unwanted attention than most men, but that's just how the whole flirting/dating/relationship dynamic works. Men in general has to deal with a lot more rejection from the opposite sex, but the ones complaining about that are usually the bitter "nice guys" who only want one thing from women.

Most sensible blokes give up when a woman does not reciprocate their interest, some does not, but that's just bellends being bellends. I read somewhere that some women gets unwanted attention from men several times a day, but imo that must mean they are either super duper attractive or they misinterpret signals. I don't know, maybe it's a culture thing? I can't imagine it happens so much here in Norway, because we are such fecking shut ins we barely manage to look another human in the eye unless we had 5 pints of lager (or 3 of mead) and only hug our mum like twice a year at the most
 
Campaign means well, has a good a message.

Perhaps tainted by bandwagon jumpers, "getting in on it."

Do agree with some on here, you wont find many people, male or female who havent been atleast sexually harassed, if not assaulted.

Ive been groped a few times by females without invitation, but they were attractive everytime so i didnt really mind. I probably would have had they been unattractive to me (sounds harsh, but its the truth), or id been in a relationship at the time. Is that harassment? Id say its technically assault, but im not exactly going to be mentally scared by it, am i?

I can certainly think of a few times my behavior probably effected anothers in my younger days too.

Just worry campaigns like this distract from real issues of harassment, and concentrates on people wanting to let everyone know they got wolf whistled at.
 
Kentonio said:
Irritated was the wrong word. I should leave it for one of our women posters to describe it.

I would just say though that you can personalize it a bit easily enough. You're walking down the street and someone shouts 'Hey sexy, looking good. What's your name?' to your mum or sister. Does that make you feel 'irritated' like a random bloke talking to you?
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My mum is 59 and not in the best of shapes, so I'm pretty sure her immediate reaction would be to be very confused and surprised at the events unfolding. She wouldn't even think it's directed at her. Not sure what emotions would follow afterwards. Never seen my mum being flirted or hit on (never mind cat-called) to know. I shall ask her and revert. Pretty sure the question alone will blind-side her.

My sister is 22 and knowing her well, it would totally depend on the guy. If he was her age and good looking she'd probably ignore, due to the setting not being the best, but it'd put a smile on her face, all. day. long. If he was a middle-aged, bald fat feck, she'd also probably ignore him but call him a creep behind his back. I don't think she'd dwell too long on it, but again I'll ask her opinion. I don't want to speak for her too much.

As for me, I guess my take would partly depend on how my relatives take it. If my sister looked unnerved I'd tell the guy to piss off. Otherwise I'd let her deal with it as she thinks best. And I'd definitely encourage my mum, she won't get many more opportunities for sex I can tell you that much.
 
SalfordRed18 said:
Campaign means well, has a good a message.

Perhaps tainted by bandwagon jumpers, "getting in on it."

Do agree with some on here, you wont find many people, male or female who havent been atleast sexually harassed, if not assaulted.

Ive been groped a few times by females without invitation, but they were attractive everytime so i didnt really mind. I probably would have had they been unattractive to me (sounds harsh, but its the truth), or id been in a relationship at the time. Is that harassment? Id say its technically assault, but im not exactly going to be mentally scared by it, am i?

I can certainly think of a few times my behavior probably effected anothers in my younger days too.

Just worry campaigns like this distract from real issues of harassment, and concentrates on people wanting to let everyone know they got wolf whistled at.
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I don't think so. With so many women coming out, its obvious we now have a lot of nervous people praying their victims keep it shut, and on the other hand, many guys that were thinking of doing something similar, will have to think again.

Obviously, for it to be a real success, we need the culpable people jailed. Hopefully this Hollywood fecker gets it.
 
Kentonio said:
An assumption? Then go and ask them. Of my closest 10 female friends, at least 2-3 have been raped, and every single one has experienced some form of non-consensual sexual assault. Not harrassment, not 'wolf whistling', but a man trying to physically force them into sexual contact. Does that sound like the kind of 'unwanted advance' you've had to deal with?
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A man trying to physically force them into sexual contact sounds like it will have a range of reality. Let's be honest the world is setup that women are in control sexual and men are made to work for sex. This undoubtedly means there will be times of persistence or encouragement/ convincing and I don't doubt that in some cases a guy could go too far, but in other cases it could quite as easily be a woman calling out as too far something that is just convincing behaviour if that makes sense.
 
MadMike said:
From how he tells it. Harvey Weinstein is an angel from how he tells it. We don't know how she tells it. She could well describe it as a creepy, horny teenager started following her home off the bus and thank god he backed off when she talked about husband and kids cause feck knows what could have happened next. Stuff of nightmares and fits right in with what I've been reading these last few days. Perception of the situation is key and it can be very different to the participants. (sorry @buchansleftleg, I'm only using you as an example of a grey area situation)

The second bolded bit is the crux of the matter. For me teaching boys/men to back off, that no means no, that even if you think you were being led on you still have to back off when she says no....that's the important stuff. Not to have men not talking to women for fear of scaring them or annoying them though. A guy with charisma and good looks seems charming and a guy without it seems creepy. Both should be encouraged to try their luck. It happens to be annoyed by an approach some times and that's ok too, but that shouldn't stop people approaching.

Ultimately if rape and severe non-consensual contact were not that common, the out of the blue approach would not be so scary to some women. It's the former we need to reduce by whatever means, but that means cannot be men not trying to approach women. And that's what I find a bit over top with some of these #MeToo tags that report any unsolicited approach however mild it is.

And a final note. Rape and sexual abuse is not going away. The same way murder is not going away and muggins are not going away. Humans can be shitty and shitty things will happen. What we need is to decrease their number so it's not an immediate worry for so many women. To create better support and report systems, better prevention, better protection and worse repercussions for abusers and offenders so they don't get away it for years like Weinstein did.
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No problem - you are emphasising my point - as a horny teen i had no idea what i was doing- now i know i should have chatted to her on the bus and seen if she was interested first.
 
RedTillI'mDead said:
A man trying to physically force them into sexual contact sounds like it will have a range of reality. Let's be honest the world is setup that women are in control sexual and men are made to work for sex. This undoubtedly means there will be times of persistence or encouragement/ convincing and I don't doubt that in some cases a guy could go too far, but in other cases it could quite as easily be a woman calling out as too far something that is just convincing behaviour if that makes sense.
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I think people vastly underestimate the amount of times guys try use physical force to try and get a woman to have sex or even to try and 'encourage' them. One of the stories that have come out with the #MeToo thing was one friend describing how when she was 15 a complete stranger physically exposed her on the street. She said her reaction (after she'd calmed down obviously) wasn't even shock but more 'so thats finally happened then'.

ANY unwanted physical contact is too fecking far, and when its sexual its not 'encouragement/convincing', its sexual assault. Jesus christ, its 2017, is it that fecking hard for people to keep their hands to themselves unless invited?
 
RedTillI'mDead said:
It was just a joke about you confessing to the harassment, hence all the girls on your Facebook! Maybe the humour was too subtle or inappropriate!
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Or was already done seconds after this thread was started and all deleted because it's a really shit joke. Have a word with yourself. Thanks.
 
RedTillI'mDead said:
A man trying to physically force them into sexual contact sounds like it will have a range of reality. Let's be honest the world is setup that women are in control sexual and men are made to work for sex. This undoubtedly means there will be times of persistence or encouragement/ convincing and I don't doubt that in some cases a guy could go too far, but in other cases it could quite as easily be a woman calling out as too far something that is just convincing behaviour if that makes sense.
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No it doesn't make any sense and it's nonsense like this that should be flushed down the toilet for the shit it actually is.
 
Someone on my fb shared a video of Stern being horrendous to Emma Bunton. A girl commented with 'men are trash'. I fecking hate that shit, and it's stuff like that that will harm the cause, but they don't see it and think they're some kind of forward thinking feminist.
 
VeevaVee said:
Someone on my fb shared a video of Stern being horrendous to Emma Bunton. A girl commented with 'men are trash'. I fecking hate that shit, and it's stuff like that that will harm the cause, but they don't see it and think they're some kind of forward thinking feminist.
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Yeah it's understandable that it's annoying. Same thing happens but to a larger degree whenever there is a terrorist attack by a Muslim.
 
VeevaVee said:
Someone on my fb shared a video of Stern being horrendous to Emma Bunton. A girl commented with 'men are trash'. I fecking hate that shit, and it's stuff like that that will harm the cause, but they don't see it and think they're some kind of forward thinking feminist.
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'Men are trash' is pretty much a meme, and not to be taken as though all men are trash.
It's just hilarious how more men get angry at the insinuation.
 
vi1lain said:
'Men are trash' is pretty much a meme, and not to be taken as though all men are trash.
It's just hilarious how more men get angry at the insinuation.
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Sounds on par with "women belong in the kitchen" jokes.
Both ok for light-hearted banter, doubt many are genuinely serious about either.
 
Ødegaard said:
Sounds on par with "women belong in the kitchen" jokes.
Both ok for light-hearted banter, doubt many are genuinely serious about either.
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I would say it's similar yeah.
The 'men are trash' and similar jokes about men, are sort of in response to such jokes - and you'll see them when it comes to serious topics such as rape & sexual assault, and also not so serious topics.
Like I said, it's more of a meme done usually to bait a response out of men, since there's not really many jokes targeted specifically at men.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Yeah it's understandable that it's annoying. Same thing happens but to a larger degree whenever there is a terrorist attack by a Muslim.
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Similarities, yeah.

vi1lain said:
'Men are trash' is pretty much a meme, and not to be taken as though all men are trash.
It's just hilarious how more men get angry at the insinuation.
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It's a meme that's new to me then. The girl who shared it is a major feminist and often shares decent stuff, but there's regularly angry man haters commenting too. They aren't joking, or if they are it's a joke between themselves with a hint of seriousness. Not sure that makes it much better.
It's interesting that complaining about this is never taken seriously, as if guys who've never done anything wrong just deserve it and should feel like they have.

Before anyone dives on this with the wrong end of the stick...what bothers me most is that they do worse things for feminism and women than they do good, because they create an us v them situation, which never helps.
 
vi1lain said:
I would say it's similar yeah.
The 'men are trash' and similar jokes about men, are sort of in response to such jokes - and you'll see them when it comes to serious topics such as rape & sexual assault, and also not so serious topics.
Like I said, it's more of a meme done usually to bait a response out of men, since there's not really many jokes targeted specifically at men.
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Fair enough. If we can dish it out we should be able to take it. :lol:
(Mind, that goes more to say if it should be acceptable or not from my perspective, individuals will obviously find "women in the kitchen jokes" hurtful & "men are trash" hurtful)
 
VeevaVee said:
Similarities, yeah.



It's a meme that's new to me then. The girl who shared it is a major feminist and often shares decent stuff, but there's regularly angry man haters commenting too. They aren't joking, or if they are it's a joke between themselves with a hint of seriousness. Not sure that makes it much better.
It's interesting that complaining about this is never taken seriously, as if guys who've never done anything wrong just deserve it and should feel like they have.

Before anyone dives on this with the wrong end of the stick...what bothers me most is that they do worse things for feminism and women than they do good, because they create an us v them situation, which never helps.
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Yeah it's pretty much a meme at this point.
It started out usually in response to serious topics like sexual assault, rape etc. but now extends to futile things like preferring pepsi over coke or something.

That's not to say that it doesn't have a reason for existing, throughout history men have shown themselves to be pretty trash.

If it doesn't apply to you, then I don't see why it should garner a response from you, or why someone's usage should somehow evoke a reaction.
Also I don't really get the point in being frustrated at seeing 'men are trash' then insinuating that there's something wrong with being a feminist, or referring to some women as 'angry man haters', it's a little ironic, surely? Why insult others, if you don't like to be insulted either, especially when they didn't even target you?

Ødegaard said:
Fair enough. If we can dish it out we should be able to take it. :lol:
(Mind, that goes more to say if it should be acceptable or not from my perspective, individuals will obviously find "women in the kitchen jokes" hurtful & "men are trash" hurtful)
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Pretty much!
I mean, I guess the difference between "women belong in the kitchen" is that there's a history of oppression there, "men are trash" is simply an oversimplification and generalisation based off a long list of events. That's not to say it's not bad, but there's obviously a difference.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
Or was already done seconds after this thread was started and all deleted because it's a really shit joke. Have a word with yourself. Thanks.
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Comedians make hundreds of millions in earnings yearly from jokes about rape, murder, incest, kidnapping, paedophilia in the Catholic church etc showing that these subjects are objectively funny to millions of people when done in a certain way and clearly not at any point saying that the act itself is a laughing matter. I'm not sure why you're getting so pissy about this, someone made a joke that a lot of people laughed at and you didn't find funny, so what. Move on. The posts that offended you have now been removed. Humour is subjective, you didn't like the joke and other people did. So what, that happens every day.
 
vi1lain said:
I mean, I guess the difference between "women belong in the kitchen" is that there's a history of oppression there, "men are trash" is simply an oversimplification and generalisation based off a long list of events. That's not to say it's not bad, but there's obviously a difference.
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I've never been a big fan of punching downwards but its the opposite when a woman says "All men are trash", so it really doesn't bother me one bit and personally you have to be incredibly sensitive to have it bother you.
 
Zarlak said:
Comedians make hundreds of millions in earnings yearly from jokes about rape, murder, incest, kidnapping, paedophilia in the Catholic church etc showing that these subjects are objectively funny to millions of people when done in a certain way and clearly not at any point saying that the act itself is a laughing matter. I'm not sure why you're getting so pissy about this, someone made a joke that a lot of people laughed at and you didn't find funny, so what. Move on. The posts that offended you have now been removed. Humour is subjective, you didn't like the joke and other people did. So what, that happens every day.
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Yeah I'll never get that. Times we live in though.
 
Buchan said:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com//n...-thrones-star-details-hotel-encounter-1049581

Luckily for her that keycard malfunctioned. Also, the way Headey describes Weinstein grabbing her is eerily similar to how he was photographed grabbing Emma Watson in those now-infamous pictures.
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She's a great woman and you would initially be amazed that she was treated like that...if you follow her twitter feed there is then a really sad reply from a female who worked in the Weinstein company apologising for having championed her as an amazing actress while she worked there. The employee now feels sorry that she inadvertedly put her in "harms way".

That's a really sorry indictment of the situation, that women have to second guess who they recommend in case they expose someone vulnerable. I've had countless discussions with colleagues discussing various people who would be great to have on a team or project. I've never had to consider that aspect, just if the manager was d'#khead rather than a perv
 
i'm not normally a fan of Jim jeffries show but he makes a great point about Weinstein and what he thought was ok to joke about before, he has now realised is just not acceptable. i won't use the language he uses as its NSFW and is quite strong but he makes a forceful point.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
I've never been a big fan of punching downwards but its the opposite when a woman says "All men are trash", so it really doesn't bother me one bit and personally you have to be incredibly sensitive to have it bother you.
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I would agree, I mean it would be great to have more men call other men trash when its warranted, rather than get bogged down in possibly being lumped in with them.
 


Old tweet, but relevant. A case of shifting blame onto an issue away from the actual case of assault itself.
 
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