Car drives into crowd in Munich, Germany

edgecutter said:
We don't see any of this with native people. All of the major incidents on Europe has been from immigration. The fact that people blame this on Russia is complete madness and tries to cover the main issue is that immigration has made a lot of major European cities more dangerous than ever.
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Multiple studies have found that immigrants, on average, do not commit crimes at higher rates than native populations. Some research even suggests they commit fewer crimes. A study by the European Commission (2020) found no significant correlation between immigration levels and overall crime rates across European countries.

Poverty, unemployment, and lack of social integration are stronger predictors of crime than immigration itself. Some marginalised immigrant communities may have higher crime rates due to social exclusion, economic struggles, or lack of opportunities rather than their immigrant status.

People are often selectively horrified with crime depending on the perpetrator.
 
Cheimoon said:
Also, I'd be interested in evidence that 'fake asylum claims' and 'bogus student visas' are a substantial problem. It sounds like the election fraud claims in the US (in reality, there is virtually none), but I don't know the Irish situation.
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You do know the Irish situation because it's a carbon copy of the same narrative as everywhere else. The 'perception' that immigration increases crime is often influenced by media and social media coverage and rhetoric, which sometimes focus on certain cases rather than overall statistics.
 
Cheimoon said:
Also, I'd be interested in evidence that 'fake asylum claims' and 'bogus student visas' are a substantial problem. It sounds like the election fraud claims in the US (in reality, there is virtually none), but I don't know the Irish situation.
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It would be hard to determine that. Asylum claim approval seems to vary quite a bit depending on the EU country, see here.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
It would be hard to determine that. Asylum claim approval seems to vary quite a bit depending on the EU country, see here.
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Yeah, but @edgecutter specifically referenced the Irish situation, which narrows it down a lot, and made the claim that this is true. So I would hope that claim has a source.
 
George Owen said:
Wasn't the worst terror attack (of the current century) in Europe soil perpetrated by some white Norwegian "native"?
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The Vegas one too, the mosque attack in Christchurch. Those are always conveniently ignored.
 
moses said:
You do know the Irish situation because it's a carbon copy of the same narrative as everywhere else. The 'perception' that immigration increases crime is often influenced by media and social media coverage and rhetoric, which sometimes focus on certain cases rather than overall statistics.
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I'm not against immigration because of perceived increase in crime im against it because it's fecking daft taking so many in.
 
MiceOnMeth said:
I'm not against immigration because of perceived increase in crime im against it because it's fecking daft taking so many in.
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All immigration? You do know our economy would collapse with it? Then there wouldn't be just a perceived increase in crime.
 
Solius said:
The Vegas one too, the mosque attack in Christchurch. Those are always conveniently ignored.
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Yes, indigenous people cause crime. A majority in a country will do horrible things. However, that doesn't take away that minorities coming into Europe are causing some horrendous crimes and they are substantially higher than they should be for such a small minority.

This person that drove through a crowd and injuring young children had a list of petty crime behind him already. He shouldn't have been in the country in the first place and now we may have more deaths of innocent people.

The fact that posters are burying their heads in the sand and not asking the same question about immigration beggars belief. I have no problem with immigrants coming here for genuine reasons or to help in sectors where we need bodies, but the mass influx of invested people who disregard our way of living should be a serious concern.
 
moses said:
The Irish Statistics office worried about fake narratives around immigration.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-ne...e-news-around-asylum-seekers/a1902798127.html
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Solius said:
The Vegas one too, the mosque attack in Christchurch. Those are always conveniently ignored.
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These big attacks (whether they are or are called terrorism or not) anyway are not indicative of much. They are of course very noticeable and affect relatively many people, but they are a drop in the bucket in the context of a country's overall crime statistics. So the jump from 'an immigrant drove a car into the crowd' to 'see, immigrants drive higher crime rates' is anyway a mistake.

That doesn't mean the latter can't be true though - but looking at studies a little, it seems a lot more nuanced. E.g., this article from the BBC from 2018 looked at German crime rates and concluded there was indeed a rise caused by immigration, but then specifies that that's primarily because the relevant immigrant population in large part consisted of people in the age bracket that anyway commits most crimes. So it's not that this immigration caused more crime, but it's the padding of the age group that most often is involved in crime. And this recent scientific article that looked at a similar period in Germany suggested residence permit status played a role. That's just from a quick glance, but the blanket statement thus doesn't seem to hold in a meaningful sort of way.

Also, even if it were true, going from 'immigrants cause crime spikes' to 'therefore no more immigrants' is also problematic. It's throwing away the baby with the bathwater. For example, if living conditions play a role (which are often poor for asylum seekers), then the solution doesn't have to be to not let people in anymore, but could be to improve the immigration process. Cause these people aren't seeking asylum for the fun of it, they need the help.
 
edgecutter said:
Yes, indigenous people cause crime. A majority in a country will do horrible things. However, that doesn't take away that minorities coming into Europe are causing some horrendous crimes and they are substantially higher than they should be for such a small minority.

This person that drove through a crowd and injuring young children had a list of petty crime behind him already. He shouldn't have been in the country in the first place and now we may have more deaths of innocent people.

The fact that posters are burying their heads in the sand and not asking the same question about immigration beggars belief. I have no problem with immigrants coming here for genuine reasons or to help in sectors where we need bodies, but the mass influx of invested people who disregard our way of living should be a serious concern.
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Not listening to your unsubstaiated claims is not burying heads. Almost all the claims you have made are incorrect. Do some reading on crime rates. Overall in Germany crime rates are down. 30,000 instances of crimes in Germany last year were by 'native' right wing organisations.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...any-up-by-quarter-2023-data-shows-2024-05-21/
 
edgecutter said:
Yes, indigenous people cause crime. A majority in a country will do horrible things. However, that doesn't take away that minorities coming into Europe are causing some horrendous crimes and they are substantially higher than they should be for such a small minority.

This person that drove through a crowd and injuring young children had a list of petty crime behind him already. He shouldn't have been in the country in the first place and now we may have more deaths of innocent people.

The fact that posters are burying their heads in the sand and not asking the same question about immigration beggars belief. I have no problem with immigrants coming here for genuine reasons or to help in sectors where we need bodies, but the mass influx of invested people who disregard our way of living should be a serious concern.
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I do have a question about immigration. Could you show me some statistics that underpin your claims here? Cause you have been making various claims here, but so far it really feels like gut-feeling stuff. Let's have some facts.

(A small factoid: no-one died from this particular incident.)
 
edgecutter said:
Yes, indigenous people cause crime. A majority in a country will do horrible things. However, that doesn't take away that minorities coming into Europe are causing some horrendous crimes and they are substantially higher than they should be for such a small minority.

This person that drove through a crowd and injuring young children had a list of petty crime behind him already. He shouldn't have been in the country in the first place and now we may have more deaths of innocent people.

The fact that posters are burying their heads in the sand and not asking the same question about immigration beggars belief. I have no problem with immigrants coming here for genuine reasons or to help in sectors where we need bodies, but the mass influx of invested people who disregard our way of living should be a serious concern.
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What's your source for this? What official stats can you provide to back up your opinion.

Given the history of emigration amongst Irish people I find some of the far right nonsense to be sickening to be fair.

It's a cop out to say mass influx without anything to back it up

We saw some of the lovely leaders of the far right travel up to Belfast from Dublin in the Summer. This was part of the collective rioting that went on after the Southport stabbings by a British national. Coked off their heads with loyalists. Racially abusing people and trying to attack people/mosques. This was caused by fake news on immigrants by some moron on twitter if you remember?

You need to be very careful with your 'opinion'. My brother in law is from India and while the likes of you can spew nonsense mindlessly for real people with different coloured skin or faith this translates as abuse and violence
 
buckooo1978 said:
What's your source for this? What official stats can you provide to back up your opinion.

Given the history of emigration amongst Irish people I find some of the far right nonsense to be sickening to be fair.

It's a cop out to say mass influx without anything to back it up

We saw some of the lovely leaders of the far right travel up to Belfast from Dublin in the Summer. This was part of the collective rioting that went on after the Southport stabbings by a British national. Coked off their heads with loyalists. Racially abusing people and trying to attack people/mosques. This was caused by fake news on immigrants by some moron on twitter if you remember?

You need to be very careful with your 'opinion'. My brother in law is from India and while the likes of you can spew nonsense mindlessly for real people with different coloured skin or faith this translates as abuse and violence
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"Do your own research" is the most likely answer. And when you do, it will be ignored.
 
The Firestarter said:
Yeah AfD cnuts probably can't believe their luck.
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It is too good to be true for the AfD. Putting my tinfoil hat. How crazy would be that they would pay him good money in order to sustain his family for good?
 
VorZakone said:
Pallesen is a right wing individual so with that disclaimer out of the way, are these stats wrong?

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Simplistic stats aren't helpful: it's how you get to claims that drinking expensive wine is better for your health. But correlation isn't causation. In the wine example, expensive wine is drunk by rich people, who have other reasons for living healthier and longer lives than the wine they drink. For immigration and crime, as @moses said: 'Poverty, unemployment, and lack of social integration are stronger predictors of crime than immigration itself. Some marginalised immigrant communities may have higher crime rates due to social exclusion, economic struggles, or lack of opportunities rather than their immigrant status.' Let's do a multivariate analysis that take all of these factors into account and see where we end up.
 
VorZakone said:
Pallesen is a right wing individual so with that disclaimer out of the way, are these stats wrong?

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No idea, I don't understand the language. As I said above, if you do it by socio-economics the figures may not be that far apart. Take the poorest and most disenfranchised sections of society and they often have higher petty crime stats than the general population. I know this because I'm from such an area, and before the immigrants kindly took our place we were generally regarded as society's weak link.
 
BBC:
Police said earlier the suspect is a 24-year-old Afghan asylum seeker.

Now German outlet Spiegel reports that he came to Germany at the end of 2016 and his asylum application was later rejected.

He was then granted what has been translated as a "tolerance" permit, which means his deportation decision was suspended.

Officials earlier said he was known to the police for theft and drug offences.
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moses said:
"Do your own research" is the most likely answer. And when you do, it will be ignored.
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honestly I'm sick to the back teeth of it.

I'd love these people to experience a day as someone who is racially abused or mistreated due to the nonsense

More empathy in a brick
 
DanH said:
Yet (fingers crossed no-one will, but I'm not sure everyone injured has been given the all clear).
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I know. From what I read, two people are seriously injured, so hopefully they'll pull through. But I had to point it out as a very obvious falsehood.
 
moses said:
All immigration? You do know our economy would collapse with it? Then there wouldn't be just a perceived increase in crime.
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Ireland took in more Nigerian asylum seekers last year than Denmark took in total asylum seekers.. it's not far right or racist to think that's fecking daft and needs to stop, is it?
 
MiceOnMeth said:
Ireland took in more Nigerian asylum seekers last year than Denmark took in total asylum seekers.. it's not far right or racist to think that's fecking daft and needs to stop, is it?
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I didn't say it was either. But we need immigrants so it can't fully stop.
 
moses said:
I didn't say it was either. But we need immigrants so it can't fully stop.
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Accomodation for asylum rose from €191 in 2021 to 1.4 billion in 2024 but yeah sure keep them coming just build a few more hotels and stick them all in there grand job

We need immigration of course but I don't know how anyone can think what's happening now is of any benefit to anyone except the greedy leeches profiting off it
 
edgecutter said:
Yes, indigenous people cause crime. A majority in a country will do horrible things. However, that doesn't take away that minorities coming into Europe are causing some horrendous crimes and they are substantially higher than they should be for such a small minority.

This person that drove through a crowd and injuring young children had a list of petty crime behind him already. He shouldn't have been in the country in the first place and now we may have more deaths of innocent people.

The fact that posters are burying their heads in the sand and not asking the same question about immigration beggars belief. I have no problem with immigrants coming here for genuine reasons or to help in sectors where we need bodies, but the mass influx of invested people who disregard our way of living should be a serious concern.
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Yeah but also you’re chatting shite so there’s that.
 
moses said:
Multiple studies have found that immigrants, on average, do not commit crimes at higher rates than native populations. Some research even suggests they commit fewer crimes. A study by the European Commission (2020) found no significant correlation between immigration levels and overall crime rates across European countries.

Poverty, unemployment, and lack of social integration are stronger predictors of crime than immigration itself. Some marginalised immigrant communities may have higher crime rates due to social exclusion, economic struggles, or lack of opportunities rather than their immigrant status.

People are often selectively horrified with crime depending on the perpetrator.
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That point is too often missed on people. In fact I remember a relatively old FBI study where this point was explained. The main corrolation with crime is precarity and this is true regardless of the ethnic make up of an area.
 
MiceOnMeth said:
Ireland took in more Nigerian asylum seekers last year than Denmark took in total asylum seekers.. it's not far right or racist to think that's fecking daft and needs to stop, is it?
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MiceOnMeth said:
Accomodation for asylum rose from €191 in 2021 to 1.4 billion in 2024 but yeah sure keep them coming just build a few more hotels and stick them all in there grand job

We need immigration of course but I don't know how anyone can think what's happening now is of any benefit to anyone except the greedy leeches profiting off it
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That seems like a bit of a jump. First, 'asylum seeker' is a narrow definition; how many Nigerian really come to Ireland on that status? Also, if I look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerians_in_Ireland, there were only 20,559 people from Nigeria in Ireland in 2022, and in 2008, 86% of Nigerians had been employed before migration to Ireland (so weren't asylum seekers). So there appears to be a huge disconnect between your two posts here.

Ah - I found Nigerian numbers as well: https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/...w-record-number-of-asylum-applicants-in-2024/. It's been going up significantly for Nigeria, but still only about 4,000 per year, and Nigerian applications are fast-tracked. That doesn't sound like a huge strain on the immigration system.
 
MiceOnMeth said:
Accomodation for asylum rose from €191 in 2021 to 1.4 billion in 2024 but yeah sure keep them coming just build a few more hotels and stick them all in there grand job

We need immigration of course but I don't know how anyone can think what's happening now is of any benefit to anyone except the greedy leeches profiting off it
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Yes, that is an issue, that needs to be one of the main focus points of the discussion and it's not the immigrants' fault. Tellingly, you are missing a group that it certainly benefits, the immigrants.

So many sectors in Ireland rely on migrant workers, particularly in healthcare, construction, hospitality, and tech. Without immigration, businesses in these sectors would struggle for staff.Like many European countries, Ireland’s population is aging and the birthrate is not enough to sustain economic growth so immigration helps balance this by bringing in younger workers who support pension systems and public services.
Another interesting stat about immigrants is how proactively entrepreneurial they are, which is great for the economy and frequently;y the culture of the areas where they set up the businesses. But in my experience, many of the people who whine about the cost of immigrant freeloaders also hate it when they open businesses.
 
JPRouve said:
That point is too often missed on people. In fact I remember a relatively old FBI study where this point was explained. The main corrolation with crime is precarity and this is true regardless of the ethnic make up of an area.
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Us Marxists never overlook this, the only war is class war . :angel:
 
The question that I find myself asking, once again, is what the hell the police who were supposed to protect the demonstration was doing. According to the description given by a police spokesman earlier, the strike procession was secured by police forces and a patrol car of theirs had been trailing the demonstration to secure the people on the road from the rear. The Mini then closed on them from the rear, started to overtake the police car, and when next to them started accelerating into the people. Why was that car even left to drive into the road where the procession was currently underway, and why was it left to overtake the police car and run into the people with the police seemingly not acting until the deed was already done? What are they even there for then? Have they learned nothing from the last christmas market attack where they also failed to secure the access route?
 
G3079 said:
The question that I find myself asking, once again, is what the hell the police who were supposed to protect the demonstration was doing. According to the description given by a police spokesman earlier, the strike procession was secured by police forces and a patrol car of theirs had been trailing the demonstration to secure the people on the road from the rear. The Mini then closed on them from the rear, started to overtake the police car, and when next to them started accelerating into the people. Why was that car even left to drive into the road where the procession was currently underway, and why was it left to overtake the police car and run into the people with the police seemingly not acting until the deed was already done? What are they even there for then? Have they learned nothing from the last christmas market attack where they also failed to secure the access route?
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I think you underestimate how difficult it is to protect a moving group of people.
 
HTG said:
I think you underestimate how difficult it is to protect a moving group of people.
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No, I do have some idea. And blocking a road from the rear with one or mutiple cars, whatever is needed, is not exactly rocket science.
 
G3079 said:
The question that I find myself asking, once again, is what the hell the police who were supposed to protect the demonstration was doing. According to the description given by a police spokesman earlier, the strike procession was secured by police forces and a patrol car of theirs had been trailing the demonstration to secure the people on the road from the rear. The Mini then closed on them from the rear, started to overtake the police car, and when next to them started accelerating into the people. Why was that car even left to drive into the road where the procession was currently underway, and why was it left to overtake the police car and run into the people with the police seemingly not acting until the deed was already done? What are they even there for then? Have they learned nothing from the last christmas market attack where they also failed to secure the access route?
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I wonder if profiling makes a role. 'What's that car doing? Should we stop it?' 'Nah, it's a Mini, no-one attacks people in a fecking Mini.'

At least cars won't object to make-and-model-ial profiling. Or is make-and-model-ism a thing? (In this context I mean, it obviously is in the wider context of the ongoing class war.)
 
Timing?

Election around the corner.

Curious to see next polls.
 
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