Car attack at Christmas market in Germany

The guy is being charged with murder and not terrorism. I suppose only Muslims can commit terrorism :)
Which article do you think he should be charged with in relation to terrorism?
$89a, b or c, preparation of a violent act endangering the state and financing terrorism, does not seem to apply from how it looks so far. He also seems to have acted alone, so it's not $129a, formation of a terrorist organisation, either.

Not to mention that the investigations are far from done and the list of charges not finalised. Seems like an odd comment to make.
 
Which article do you think he should be charged with in relation to terrorism?
$89a, b or c, preparation of a violent act endangering the state and financing terrorism, does not seem to apply from how it looks so far. He also seems to have acted alone, so it's not $129a, formation of a terrorist organisation, either.

Not to mention that the investigations are far from done and the list of charges not finalised. Seems like an odd comment to make.

I'm not a scholar in terrorism law but regarding the ones you've mentioned, $89 can definitely be applied since he openly said in Twitter that he'll attack civilians to punish what the state is doing in terms of allowing more migration and Islamization. It was an attack on the state.
 
I'm not a scholar in terrorism law but regarding the ones you've mentioned, $89 can definitely be applied since he openly said in Twitter that he'll attack civilians to punish what the state is doing in terms of allowing more migration and Islamization. It was an attack on the state.
Read more than just the title of §89a, read when it actually applies under (2). None of it appears to work in this case. He did not use or provide incendiary or explosive devices, did not use guns, did not use toxic or radioactive substances. Neither did get his hands or attempt to get his hands on any components for any of those things for himself or others.

There is no such thing as just a general "terrorism" charge. You need to actually use an existing criminal charge that applies in this case, not just make something up in your head and then complain about how it only gets used against muslims.
 
Read more than just the title of §89a, read when it actually applies under (2). None of it appears to work in this case. He did not use or provide incendiary or explosive devices, did not use guns, did not use toxic or radioactive substances. Neither did get his hands or attempt to get his hands on any components for any of those things for himself or others.

There is no such thing as just a general "terrorism" charge. You need to actually use an existing criminal charge that applies in this case, not just make something up in your head and then complain about how it only gets used against muslims.

Just to be clear, if I get in a car, scream 'Death to infidels Allahu Akbar' and run over people, I technically won't be charged under terrorism? I haven't prescribed to ISIS or anyone else, lone maniac, and I don't have any guns etc.
 
Just to be clear, if I get in a car, scream 'Death to infidels Allahu Akbar' and run over people, I technically won't be charged under terrorism? I haven't prescribed to ISIS or anyone else, lone maniac, and I don't have any guns etc.
The issue seems to be that the wording of the law needs to be updated (cars can be used as weapons etc.). It's only applicable as it's written down. However, I would be surprised if the extent of the sentence is influenced by this.
 
Just to be clear, if I get in a car, scream 'Death to infidels Allahu Akbar' and run over people, I technically won't be charged under terrorism? I haven't prescribed to ISIS or anyone else, lone maniac, and I don't have any guns etc.
Not you Hasan - you would be.

You got it right the first time brother.
 
The issue seems to be that the wording of the law needs to be updated (cars can be used as weapons etc.). It's only applicable as it's written down. However, I would be surprised if the extent of the sentence is influenced by this.

It's strange that they haven't yet considering how cars have been commonly used for attacks in the last decade. Not just in Germany but we've seen attacks in USA and Canada as well using cars (not Islamist attacks but right wing/incel). Maybe they're lazy because in the past you could still charge terrorism because ISIS would claim responsibility despite the person using a car.



I understand the point about the wording of the law and how through that they can't charge terrorism, but then stuff like this furthers my point that you can only be considered a terrorist if you're Muslim.
 
Just to be clear, if I get in a car, scream 'Death to infidels Allahu Akbar' and run over people, I technically won't be charged under terrorism? I haven't prescribed to ISIS or anyone else, lone maniac, and I don't have any guns etc.

Do you not understand the meaning of the word "prepare"? Or are you really getting worked up, because it's being reported that he's being charged for committing murder rather than preparing a terrorist act?
 
Do you not understand the meaning of the word "prepare"? Or are you really getting worked up, because it's being reported that he's being charged for committing murder rather than preparing a terrorist act?
I really don’t care with what he’ll be charged as long as he never leaves jail again.
 
I really don’t care with what he’ll be charged as long as he never leaves jail again.
I don't think it's entirely meaningless. It's sends a signal that terrorism isn't restricted to islamists, which I think would be an important message. Still, can only rule on what the law says
 
I don't think it's entirely meaningless. It's sends a signal that terrorism isn't restricted to islamists, which I think would be an important message. Still, can only rule on what the law says
The members of the RAF were also found guilty of terrorism. The law does not discriminate on the basis of religion or other aspects. But it obviously needs a revision if the terrorism case cannot be applied to the current attack.
 
I really don’t care with what he’ll be charged as long as he never leaves jail again.

Germany doesn't add up sentences like e.g. the US, one life sentence is the maximum and convicting him for committing the act itself will be more than sufficient to achieve that. Crying racism or whatever, because maybe he wasn't charged with a law that's designed to hand out heavier sentences for people, who plan attacks, is taking Dunning Krüger to malicious levels.
 
I'm actually amazed that this piece of shit wasn't charged with terrorist acts.
 
Do you not understand the meaning of the word "prepare"? Or are you really getting worked up, because it's being reported that he's being charged for committing murder rather than preparing a terrorist act?

What do you mean by that? That he didn't 'prepare' for the attack? Other than proclaiming multiple times in social media that we was going to do this, that caught the attention of multiple people other than the fecking police, eventually unless Germany changes it's stance on immigrants and Muslims in particular.

I can agree with the previous poster that the wording of the law can mean this isn't a terrorist attack only if my example is also accepted as not one. If you seriously think my example is one of terrorism while this isn't, then I'm sorry the way your mind is working to try and convince you of it.

I shared a quote from the interior Minister pretty much saying "we can't figure this out, only Muslims are supposed to do this, how could a non-Muslim possibly do this?!". There is inherent racism in now this is being portrayed.

Next I'll figure a politician will come with the taqqiyah nonsense going around.
 
Last edited:
Germany doesn't add up sentences like e.g. the US, one life sentence is the maximum and convicting him for committing the act itself will be more than sufficient to achieve that. Crying racism or whatever, because maybe he wasn't charged with a law that's designed to hand out heavier sentences for people, who plan attacks, is taking Dunning Krüger to malicious levels.
Of course it matters. If a muslim did this all on his lonesome, links would be made with all kinds of extremist Islamic organizations that he probably agreed with explicitly somewhere in all of his social media posts - and he would be described as a muslim terrorist that supports ISIS or Al-Qaeda or whatever. Cause those organizations are already classified as terrorist, so it's quick link to call it terrorism - and possibly a terrorism charge. (If 'waffen/weapon' in article 89a(2)2 of that law can be interpreted as a car.)

But if a non-muslim does the exact same thing, but instead in his social media posts expresses alignment with the likes of the AfD, Tommy Robinson, and Elon Musk, then the narrative is very different - even if the underlying motivation is the same: causing general death and suffering to force the state into a reaction.

I think you can state that, underneath this difference, lies an implicit understanding that 'terrorism' is something that organizations like ISIS and Al-Quada do, and previously the RAF, IRA, or PLO - and therefore also people that are not officially part of these organizations but explicitly align with them. There isn't yet sufficient understanding that the extremist right-wing rhetoric that's increasingly common now gives rise to the same actions, even if the organizations and individuals responsible for the rhetoric don't engage in physical terrorism themselves.

Linked with this, I suppose it is also still the case that the German security apparatus is relatively right-wing themselves (as is probably true in most places), and therefore probably less awake to the idea of right-wing terrorists.

I don't think any of that is far-fetched to suggest.
 
I'm actually amazed that this piece of shit wasn't charged with terrorist acts.
As I've already explained, there are very few articles in the German law that explicitly refer to terrorism, like financing terrorism or creation of a terrorist association, and so far none of them seem to apply here. There is no charge of just "terrorism", but the motive (such as terrorism) behind charges such as murder does of course affect the severity of the punishment.
And I think I need to say that again: the investigetions are still far from completed, it will probably be weeks if not months until the opening of judicial proceedings. We do not know yet what the final list of charges will be. Until then, it's perfectly reasonable to keep him imprisoned under the charges of murder, attempted murder and assault which were unquestionable from the start.
What do you mean by that? That he didn't 'prepare' for the attack? Other than proclaiming multiple times in social media that we was going to do this, that caught the attention of multiple people other than the fecking police, eventually unless Germany changes it's stance on immigrants and Muslims in particular.
That's not how those laws work. It's a charge specifically for acts that were not brought to completion, or for assisting in preparing acts. You don't prosecute both the murder and the preparation for that very same murder, for example.
Of course it matters. If a muslim did this all on his lonesome, links would be made with all kinds of extremist Islamic organizations that he probably agreed with explicitly somewhere in all of his social media posts - and he would be described as a muslim terrorist that supports ISIS or Al-Qaeda or whatever. Cause those organizations are already classified as terrorist, so it's quick link to call it terrorism - and possibly a terrorism charge. (If 'waffen/weapon' in article 89a(2)2 of that law can be interpreted as a car.)
§89(2) is referencing the weapons listed under (1), and the list there makes it very clear that cars don't fall within the scope of that law.

Your theory that muslims are treated differently in terms of being charged with "terrorism" does not hold water when you compare it with last year's planned terrorist attack on a christmas market to "kill infidels" by a 15y/o which thankfully did not come to fruition. He has been sentenced for collusion to murder, disturbing the public peace by threat of a felony, and the use of symbols of a prohibited organisation. The court's statement makes it undeniably clear that they planned a terrorist act and are being judged for them, but the articles they are charged under by themselves don't state it as they are umbrellas that terrorist acts, but also other acts fall under.
That is similar to how it has been in another recent-ish case, the attack on a synagogue in Halle in 2019. There is no doubt that it was case of terrorism, both the wording in the court and in the media leave no doubt about it being seen as such. But the charges were murder, attempted murder as well as incitement to hatred (Volksverhetzung).
Again, as stated above, terrorism is a motive behind a criminal charge, not a charge itself except for very few cases like "financing terror" or "creation of a terrorist organisation". That's just how things are in German law, there are no different laws for murder out of terrorism, for personal gain, out of racism or whatever, there is just murder with a motive of X, Y or Z, and those motives are then also considered when defining the sentence. In a few cases the motives behind an act even change the charge itself, like the difference §211 (murder) and §212 (manslaughter).

Again, a "terrorism charge" in itself is not a thing that exists in German law. Doesn't matter if we're talking rightwing, leftwing, or fundamentalist terrorism.

You're correct in that security apparatuses in Germany (and elsewhere) are generally (far) right leaning, we're usually saying here that the agencies are "blind in the right eye" (auf dem rechten Auge blind). But that's a problem in everyday prosecution in the laws, not within the law itself. Would the equivalent of the public threats he made be issued by an islamist or a leftwinger have gone equally unpersecuted, the warnings about them gone equally unheeded? I won't say it's impossible, given just how overloaded, undertrained and badly connected German police and other agencies are, but I'd say it would have been way less likely. But the laws itself would have allowed for it regardless of which political or religious orientation they are a part of.
 
Last edited:
What do you mean by that? That he didn't 'prepare' for the attack? Other than proclaiming multiple times in social media that we was going to do this, that caught the attention of multiple people other than the fecking police, eventually unless Germany changes it's stance on immigrants and Muslims in particular.

I can agree with the previous poster that the wording of the law can mean this isn't a terrorist attack only if my example is also accepted as not one. If you seriously think my example is one of terrorism while this isn't, then I'm sorry the way your mind is working to try and convince you of it.

I shared a quote from the interior Minister pretty much saying "we can't figure this out, only Muslims are supposed to do this, how could a non-Muslim possibly do this?!". There is inherent racism in now this is being portrayed.

Next I'll figure a politician will come with the taqqiyah nonsense going around.
Of course it matters. If a muslim did this all on his lonesome, links would be made with all kinds of extremist Islamic organizations that he probably agreed with explicitly somewhere in all of his social media posts - and he would be described as a muslim terrorist that supports ISIS or Al-Qaeda or whatever. Cause those organizations are already classified as terrorist, so it's quick link to call it terrorism - and possibly a terrorism charge. (If 'waffen/weapon' in article 89a(2)2 of that law can be interpreted as a car.)


I mean that it's beyond stupid to complain that he didn't get charged with a crime that carries as a 10 year maximum sentence, when he's instead being charged with a crime that carries life. I don't know how to break this down to a lower level. There is no metaphor for this. Life sentence > 10 year conviction. Period.
 
Last edited:
As I've already explained, there are very few articles in the German law that explicitly refer to terrorism, like financing terrorism or creation of a terrorist association, and so far none of them seem to apply here. There is no charge of just "terrorism", but the motive (such as terrorism) behind charges such as murder does of course affect the severity of the punishment.
And I think I need to say that again: the investigetions are still far from completed, it will probably be weeks if not months until the opening of judicial proceedings. We do not know yet what the final list of charges will be. Until then, it's perfectly reasonable to keep him imprisoned under the charges of murder, attempted murder and assault which were unquestionable from the start.

That's not how those laws work. It's a charge specifically for acts that were not brought to completion, or for assisting in preparing acts. You don't prosecute both the murder and the preparation for that very same murder, for example.
No, it's fecking not :lol:.

This filthy excuse of a human being drove his car through a Weihnachtsmarkt with the sole intent and purpose of inflicting terror and maximum carnage in order to send out a political message, which fills the terrorist 101 textbook.

If this piece of shit ends up being charged "only" with murder, attempted murder and assault, then there's something massively wrong in the German judicial system.
 
Last edited:
Seems like an issue with a blind spot in German law, this by most definitions is a terrorist attack.
 
That's not how those laws work. It's a charge specifically for acts that were not brought to completion, or for assisting in preparing acts. You don't prosecute both the murder and the preparation for that very same murder, for example.

I'm still not sure how my example differs from this and why one can be called terrorism over the other.

I mean that it's beyond stupid to complain that he didn't get charged with a crime that carries as a 10 year maximum sentence, when he's instead being charged with a crime that carries life. I don't know how to break this down to a lower level. There is no metaphor for this. Life sentence > 10 year conviction. Period.

My issue isn't with the charge that was explained as being a weakness in the law, I can agree with that. It was with you somehow saying the example I have was a terrorist attack while this isn't, when both are the same things.
 
I'm still not sure how my example differs from this and why one can be called terrorism over the other.



My issue isn't with the charge that was explained as being a weakness in the law, I can agree with that. It was with you somehow saying the example I have was a terrorist attack while this isn't, when both are the same things.

I said nothing of the kind. You're referencing a law that's designed to allow for harsher sentences for people, who prepare (AS OPPOSED TO COMMIT) an attack. It's in the very title of the law you're referencing. Its point seems to be that the system can hand out long sentences even if the would be attackers were caught early. It's not meant or useful to increase the sentences of people, who managed to carry out their plans.

A murder conviction on the other hand allows for a life sentence with a "particular severity of guilt" element and since that is the legal maximum for a conviction there is no need for a different charge, there is no life + 10 years to be had if they were also to convict him of preparing the act. Your entire complaint is based on not being able to read the law, doing no research and compensating with outrage. Because 2 minutes on google would tell you that the Syrian, who stabbed people in Solingen also got charged with murder, whereas non-Muslim right wingers (e.g. "Reichsbürger" or Neo Nazis) actually do get charged with terrorism relatively frequently.
 
No, it's fecking not :lol:.

This filthy excuse of a human being drove his car through a Weihnachtsmarkt with the sole intent and purpose of inflicting terror and maximum carnage in order to send out a political message, which fills the terrorist 101 textbook.

If this piece of shit ends up being charged "only" with murder, attempted murder and assault, then there's something massively wrong in the German judicial system.

Seems like an issue with a blind spot in German law, this by most definitions is a terrorist attack.

I'm still not sure how my example differs from this and why one can be called terrorism over the other.
I've explained it multiple times in this thread now:
The German law does not, with very few, very specific exceptions, reference terrorism. There are exists no charge for carrying out a terrorist attack, specifically. That does not mean that that an attack is not regarded as terrorism, both by the public and the legal system. It just means that that part is considered within in the scope of the charges they are accused with anyway, as their motive, and will impact the sentence as such. Murder already has the maximally possible sentence available under German law as an option - lifelong prison with the addition of exceptional gravity of their guilt and subsequent security detention - and acts of terrorism of any belief system is just about the 'best' way to achieve exactly this maximum punishment. There'd be no point to a category above it that is already encompassed by existing laws anyway just so you people don't flip your shit at what's written in the title line of the laws used for the sentence which you don't follow beyond this ridiculous shorttime outrage anyway.

That's not a gap, or a mistake, and does not mean that the state is soft on terrorism from any direction, does not regard something as a terrorist attack and weighs that in accordingly in the sentence, or, as some have suggested, treats one ideology differently in front of the law. In fact, it avoids a massive issue in that terrorism is a legislative and judicative horror to define, resulting in arbitrary and ideologically/politically charged application of such laws in countries that have those extra charges. Just look at Mangione.
 
I've explained it multiple times in this thread now:
The German law does not, with very few, very specific exceptions, reference terrorism. There are exists no charge for carrying out a terrorist attack, specifically. That does not mean that that an attack is not regarded as terrorism, both by the public and the legal system. It just means that that part is considered within in the scope of the charges they are accused with anyway, as their motive, and will impact the sentence as such. Murder already has the maximally possible sentence available under German law as an option - lifelong prison with the addition of exceptional gravity of their guilt and subsequent security detention - and acts of terrorism of any belief system is just about the 'best' way to achieve exactly this maximum punishment. There'd be no point to a category above it that is already encompassed by existing laws anyway just so you people don't flip your shit at what's written in the title line of the laws used for the sentence which you don't follow beyond this ridiculous shorttime outrage anyway.

That's not a gap, or a mistake, and does not mean that the state is soft on terrorism from any direction, does not regard something as a terrorist attack and weighs that in accordingly in the sentence, or, as some have suggested, treats one ideology differently in front of the law. In fact, it avoids a massive issue in that terrorism is a legislative and judicative horror to define, resulting in arbitrary and ideologically/politically charged application of such laws in countries that have those extra charges. Just look at Mangione.
Fair enough then, also @do.ob.

I suppose a point could be made that sentencing should to an extent also feel satisfactory to the general public, and a reference to terrorism would be helpful there. But you're right that it would be hard to define; although perhaps some reference to those articles 89 and 129 could be built into other laws for this purpose.

But obviously, that would be complex (and probably contentious), and anyway not something that exists now.
 
I suppose a point could be made that sentencing should to an extent also feel satisfactory to the general public, and a reference to terrorism would be helpful there.
But the reference to terrorism is there, as I've already explained and linked in the press statement to the sentencing of last year's wannabe christmas market terrorist. It's just not in the title or text of the laws used, but it's present everywhere in the trials and in the sentencing, as well as in the general reporting.

And let's not pretend that the general public actually reads those laws, their titles, or follows up on the trial beyond reading maybe two sentences in a media article when it has concluded. If anything this thread has very much shown that recently. This is just people getting worked up for a few days over things have always been the case for any terrorist attack, and in a week something else will catch their attention and they'll forget about it. I can't speak in favour of cluttering the statutes with effectively meaningless extras just to get shortterm browny points with people that don't have to actually work with it.

And I honestly think the discussion detracts from what should really have the attention and be scrutinized: Who failed, where, and when? How could the safety concept of the market have such a blatantly obvious security flaw, who signed off on that? Why can this person make public statements, over years, with recently 40k followers on Xitter, openly stating that he intends to kill people and does not expect to survive this year, without it being immediatly followed up on with the necessary amount of force? How did his security come back negative when he made such public statements?
And why are several German parties being so disgustingly tasteless to instrumentalise this incident to push their security agendas, the items of which would not even have helped to prevent what happened, less than 24h later?

There is so, so much to be mad about, so many questions to be asked in why and how this could happen. I quite frankly find it ridiculous that some people instead choose to be mad about irrelevant crap like whether or not the word "terrorism" appears in the actual charge rather than 'just' everywhere throughout the trial and sentence.
 
I said nothing of the kind. You're referencing a law that's designed to allow for harsher sentences for people, who prepare (AS OPPOSED TO COMMIT) an attack. It's in the very title of the law you're referencing. Its point seems to be that the system can hand out long sentences even if the would be attackers were caught early. It's not meant or useful to increase the sentences of people, who managed to carry out their plans.

A murder conviction on the other hand allows for a life sentence with a "particular severity of guilt" element and since that is the legal maximum for a conviction there is no need for a different charge, there is no life + 10 years to be had if they were also to convict him of preparing the act. Your entire complaint is based on not being able to read the law, doing no research and compensating with outrage. Because 2 minutes on google would tell you that the Syrian, who stabbed people in Solingen also got charged with murder, whereas non-Muslim right wingers (e.g. "Reichsbürger" or Neo Nazis) actually do get charged with terrorism relatively frequently.

I haven't made a reference at the law being racist for a few posts now ever since @G3079 explained the wording of the law. I did go a quick Google a couple of days ago and saw that last year there were I think 5 people were charged with terrorism related to a far right terrorist party so I didn't make such a comment that the law is designed to target Muslims with terrorism.

If the law is intentionally worded this way since murder is treated more harshly than planning a terrorist attack, then fine.

@G3079 I understand you anger at how this attack was allowed to take place despite the obvious signs, but people have to live through being part of a group that is stigmatized as being violent and breeding terrorists. I few months ago someone who I played table tennis with almost daily for a few years forwarded me a message, completely out of blue, on Whatsapp about how Jews have won so many Nobel Peace prizes and Muslims haven't won any. The message wrote that all Muslims do is teach their kids to be terrorists and kill people, which is why there are so many terrorists. He knows I had a kid recently as well so he's also insinuating that I'm teaching him to be a terrorist.

So yea, you might find it ridiculous but, for some people who have to live through it, it's very important that this attack is acknowledged as a terrorist attack so that the public can perceive that it's not Muslims who can commit violent attacks. There are still politicians trying to claim this guy was a Muslim (AfD I know but they're the second biggest party in Germany and still allowed to continue politics despite their record of racism), a Twitter post I shared also shared how the internal minister was shocked he wasn't a Muslim. So these things still do prevail and can be important.
 
Last edited:
There is so, so much to be mad about, so many questions to be asked in why and how this could happen. I quite frankly find it ridiculous that some people instead choose to be mad about irrelevant crap like whether or not the word "terrorism" appears in the actual charge rather than 'just' everywhere throughout the trial and sentence.
No I can't agree. Posters here and the wider public discourse are concerned that terrorism is being used as a description selectively for political reasons and for propaganda purposes. And that concern is entirely justified.

Now whether the peculiarities of German law mean that terrorism is not a suitable legal attribution is one thing, and I have no expertise to speak to that. But you can't be oblivious to the legitimate concerns about the language and framing used when describing terrorism.

The Luigi Magnione case going on right now is a prime example of the debate around the use of terrorism as a description and the potential politicisation that is entailed.

And Muslims, arabs, brown people, immigrants have suffered the brunt of this war of language since 9/11.

Terrorism as a framing narrative and the way in which it targets certain communities and not others has been well documented.

This case has already reportedly been used by the ADF, other far right communities including pro Israel communities, Elon Musk amongst others to launder their own image, spread disinformation about the atracker to promote their own causes and distance themselves from social media links they had with him. It's legitimate to be looking at the media, the justice system and the politicians, in the way they choose to frame this attack.
 
But the reference to terrorism is there, as I've already explained and linked in the press statement to the sentencing of last year's wannabe christmas market terrorist. It's just not in the title or text of the laws used, but it's present everywhere in the trials and in the sentencing, as well as in the general reporting.

And let's not pretend that the general public actually reads those laws, their titles, or follows up on the trial beyond reading maybe two sentences in a media article when it has concluded. If anything this thread has very much shown that recently. This is just people getting worked up for a few days over things have always been the case for any terrorist attack, and in a week something else will catch their attention and they'll forget about it. I can't speak in favour of cluttering the statutes with effectively meaningless extras just to get shortterm browny points with people that don't have to actually work with it.

And I honestly think the discussion detracts from what should really have the attention and be scrutinized: Who failed, where, and when? How could the safety concept of the market have such a blatantly obvious security flaw, who signed off on that? Why can this person make public statements, over years, with recently 40k followers on Xitter, openly stating that he intends to kill people and does not expect to survive this year, without it being immediatly followed up on with the necessary amount of force? How did his security come back negative when he made such public statements?
And why are several German parties being so disgustingly tasteless to instrumentalise this incident to push their security agendas, the items of which would not even have helped to prevent what happened, less than 24h later?

There is so, so much to be mad about, so many questions to be asked in why and how this could happen. I quite frankly find it ridiculous that some people instead choose to be mad about irrelevant crap like whether or not the word "terrorism" appears in the actual charge rather than 'just' everywhere throughout the trial and sentence.
Those first two paragraphs makes sense to me, so again: fair enough. But as for the third and fourth, more than one discussion can take place, and I agree with @dumbo's points. It might be that that stuff that doesn't really apply to the German sociopolitical situation, but given the comments the AfD is coming out with, the right-wing bias among the police and intelligence agencies, and how normalized radical-right views have become the past few years, I think it's probably still better to talk about it more than less.
 
Yeah no, I'm done.

I have done all I could come up with to bring some basic legal literacy into the discussion. I've explained multiple times where, how and why terrorism is a factor in German legal proceedings, including two recent examples of cases of both a rightwing terrorist and an islamist terrorist trial. It's gone completely ignored every time and the next post would once again just be an outraged waffling about how the case does not have terrorism charges because it's not an islamist case, ignoring that those charges do not exist for any ideology, ignoring the precedents and laws cited, ignoring that investigations have only just begun, and showing not a shred of knowledge about the German legal system.

I finally understand now that there is not a thing on this planet that I could say to get an intelligent discussion out of this when the other side is people who want to be outraged and thus need to remain willfully ignorant of the very system their outrage is directed at. So I'm doing what I probably should have doing two attempts ago and cut my losses, leave people who just want to be angry no matter what to their business, and stop wasting my time and effort.
 
Yeah no, I'm done.

I have done all I could come up with to bring some basic legal literacy into the discussion. I've explained multiple times where, how and why terrorism is a factor in German legal proceedings, including two recent examples of cases of both a rightwing terrorist and an islamist terrorist trial. It's gone completely ignored every time and the next post would once again just be an outraged waffling about how the case does not have terrorism charges because it's not an islamist case, ignoring that those charges do not exist for any ideology, ignoring the precedents and laws cited, ignoring that investigations have only just begun, and showing not a shred of knowledge about the German legal system.

I finally understand now that there is not a thing on this planet that I could say to get an intelligent discussion out of this when the other side is people who want to be outraged and thus need to remain willfully ignorant of the very system their outrage is directed at. So I'm doing what I probably should have doing two attempts ago and cut my losses, leave people who just want to be angry no matter what to their business, and stop wasting my time and effort.

The only one being outraged right now is you. From the above posts people are understanding and acceptable of the law and are only talking about the narrative around the incident.