Capitalism, yay or nay?

But that is not capitalism, or the free market. At least the kind you are talking about. New drugs cost literally billions of dollars to produce (though I would guess in a free market there would be no FDA so no need for extensive trials?).
So, what is the incentive for a drugmaker to produce a new drug? Why should he not get to keep his patent indefinitely? Why are life-saving drugs different from other drugs? All that these "expiring" patents and creating categories of drugs will do is distort the free market, since demand for lifesaving drugs is inelastic to everything, they would naturally be priced high.

First, to clarify, the drugs itself are cheap to make, it's only a composition of chemical, what's expensive is the pharmaceutical's company sunked cost on RnD and they put it on the customer to break even (although nobody ever know what's the actual cost, they could have made an accidental founding that horse's sperm cures aids and claimed they spent billions). We can get Panadol (now a generic medication) for a quid these days.

There are incentives however, if you create a drug that creates cancer you'd probably still be rich. But without protection it'll be a fair game, anyone who can make the same drugs with lower cost can sell them to the public without patent issues. Not that patents are obsolete, but patents should be about brand and not the actual product itself. Copyright and patents has been scrutinized all these years and the courts still can't find the middle ground. For example, apple has patents for its brand, but they shouldn't just go around and suing people who makes a candy bar tablet phone just because they look alike. Appearance, performance, and appeal are very hard to determine whether they're new or a blatant copy.

I believe that in ideology level, protection on drug makers are supposed to benefit the society, but in the process it created a loophole for the pharmaceuticals company to exploit.

Is it the fault and flaws of capitalism? We should ask whether it's the ideology or the application that's at fault. There's no right / wrong, United can play the same 433 formation as Barcelona but without the right personnel we would look clueless while Barcelona won a treble. It's a combination of the correct system with the correct player. Now would you say that we're clueless because 433 sucks or because it's our players that's not as good as barcelona?
 
The biggest problem is distribution of resources and no system has solved that puzzle yet.

The distribution of resources are actually addressed very well with free markets, abolishment of trade barriers and tarrifs (WTO). But alas protectionism, tariffs, and other Non Tarrifs barrier are creating the inequality in resources distribution as each nations wants to protect its industry and manufacturing.
 
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The distribution of resources are actually addressed very well with free markets, abolishment of trade barriers and tarrifs (WTO). But alas protectionism, tariffs, and other Non Tarrifs barrier are creating the inequality in resources distribution as each nations wants to protect its industry and manufacturing.
You dont understand what I meant by distribution of resources.
 
Capatilism is the closest fit with humanity's mindset.
We are all animals at the end of the day, trying to get ahead in order to give ourselves or our offspring a better chance. You can't ever remove that innate drive imo.

It would certainly benefit from a few more controls, but I don't think there is any viable alternative.
 
Capatilism is the closest fit with humanity's mindset.
We are all animals at the end of the day, trying to get ahead in order to give ourselves or our offspring a better chance. You can't ever remove that innate drive imo.

It would certainly benefit from a few more controls, but I don't think there is any viable alternative.
You're right, a £100m a year wage cap could do the trick though. I don't see why anyone would need or require any more than that.
 
I'm all for Capitalism. It would be nice to see it back again rather than this pseudo state sponsored elitist capitalism we now have.
 
as a result their shares value dropped and they reduced the price.

The company is not publicly traded and their value didn't drop, and the medicine hasn't dropped in price.

This guy probably shorted a lot of biotech stocks and made good $$$ though.
 
Capatilism is the closest fit with humanity's mindset.
We are all animals at the end of the day, trying to get ahead in order to give ourselves or our offspring a better chance. You can't ever remove that innate drive imo.

It would certainly benefit from a few more controls, but I don't think there is any viable alternative.

So much wrong with this post. There's no 'innate drive' that deems capitalism as the only economic system, friendo.

In fact, we're conditioned to believe a lot of things, thanks to capitalism. These include(but are not limited to).

i) Capatilism is the closest fit with humanity's mindset.
baseless. What mindset?

ii) We are all animals at the end of the day, trying to get ahead in order to give ourselves or our offspring a better chance.
very reductionist.

iii) You can't ever remove that innate drive imo.
you're regurgitating what you said 1 sentence ago.

.. and the most pernicious one.
iv) I don't think there is any viable alternative.

that's it. the biggest success of capitalism. to convince that there's no alternative.

Most post endorsing 'Capitalism is the only viable economic system' sound like this, btw.
 
So much wrong with this post. There's no 'innate drive' that deems capitalism as the only economic system, friendo.

In fact, we're conditioned to believe a lot of things, thanks to capitalism. These include(but are not limited to).

i) Capatilism is the closest fit with humanity's mindset.
baseless. What mindset?

ii) We are all animals at the end of the day, trying to get ahead in order to give ourselves or our offspring a better chance.
very reductionist.

iii) You can't ever remove that innate drive imo.
you're regurgitating what you said 1 sentence ago.

.. and the most pernicious one.
iv) I don't think there is any viable alternative.

that's it. the biggest success of capitalism. to convince that there's no alternative.

Most post endorsing 'Capitalism is the only viable economic system' sound like this, btw.

There isn't any. A sprinkle of modifications here and there but the rich vs poor has been around long before jesus was even born.

I see it as capitalism that describes men as it is, and the most apt at it. Not the other way, the mindset of men is basically capitalism, they just found the word for it in capitalism
 
There isn't any. A sprinkle of modifications here and there but the rich vs poor has been around long before jesus was even born.

I see it as capitalism that describes men as it is, and the most apt at it. Not the other way, the mindset of men is basically capitalism, they just found the word for it in capitalism

First, I don't believe in shite like 'mindset of men', 'fundamental element of human nature' 'innate human instincts' and a lot of that stuff. They're always in flux. How does capitalism describe men as it it? The rich poor divide?

If you didn't know(and I'm sure you don't). Most Hunter-gatherar bands were very egalitarian. Showing off and bragging was frowned upon and you'd be shunned if you did it. Leisure was cherished. Hmm, should I conclude 'the mindset of men is basically communism.' I would if I didn't know better.

There's demonstrable difference in social dynamics in South American fishermen where different fishing strategies rewarded differently(helping self vs helping group). They developed and promoted different values. Once again there's no constant, universal human nature that is conducive to capitalism.
 
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Regulated capitalism is where it's at.
And it will be.

At time I wonder, what will happen when robots will be able to get most of people jobs. I actually think that a lot of jobs (especially those in factories) can be almost completely replaced by robots (not neccesarily intelligent robots). For a system which is based on production, it completely makes sense to go for the cheaper alternative, and robots will be cheaper than humans. The problem though is that then a lot of people won't have much money to buy those things (or have money, full stop) which could cause an interesting scenario. The products will probably be cheaper than ever (because of the cheap labour force) but the majority of people won't have money to buy them.

For that, I think that it is almost certain that the states (or well, big coorporations who IMO will be as powerful as states) will start being more active in economic/financial system.

Obviously, I might be completely wrong and technology will instead create more jobs.
 
And it will be.

At time I wonder, what will happen when robots will be able to get most of people jobs. I actually think that a lot of jobs (especially those in factories) can be almost completely replaced by robots (not neccesarily intelligent robots). For a system which is based on production, it completely makes sense to go for the cheaper alternative, and robots will be cheaper than humans. The problem though is that then a lot of people won't have much money to buy those things (or have money, full stop) which could cause an interesting scenario. The products will probably be cheaper than ever (because of the cheap labour force) but the majority of people won't have money to buy them.

For that, I think that it is almost certain that the states (or well, big coorporations who IMO will be as powerful as states) will start being more active in economic/financial system.

Obviously, I might be completely wrong and technology will instead create more jobs.

Wr already have that, bank workers are just data entry clerk these days, they dont need a man to make decisions, it's all computer based scenario.

No longer we need a team of accountants and big books, just a few computer with excel.

Obviously with computer and machinisation the cost of labor are going down, it's harder to find a job with good salary in here anymore, compared to 30 years ago where anyone with a degree can have a very decent living.

I dread thinking about what the next 30 years gonna be, too much workforce too little work
 
Wr already have that, bank workers are just data entry clerk these days, they dont need a man to make decisions, it's all computer based scenario.

No longer we need a team of accountants and big books, just a few computer with excel.

Obviously with computer and machinisation the cost of labor are going down, it's harder to find a job with good salary in here anymore, compared to 30 years ago where anyone with a degree can have a very decent living.

I dread thinking about what the next 30 years gonna be, too much workforce too little work
We have already started having it, but there is far more potential. If something 'bad' doesn't happen (like a winter of 'very big data' decision systems, which can affect a lot of those systems, especially financial ones), the situation will be even worse. Labour work in EU/US/Japan-S.Korea-Hong Kong etc will completely be replaced by robots. In banking sector a lot of jobs will be replaced by intelligent systems. Formal education will be replaced - to some degree - by MOOC, etc etc. While some of the elite jobs will still be there (doctors, lawyers, programmers, scientist etc), hundreds of millions will lose their jobs.

All that happening at the same time when the production will be increased exactly cause those systems/robots will be more productive and cheaper. But then people won't have money to buy those goods.

Maybe a minimum wage provided for the unemployed will be the solution.
 
We have already started having it, but there is far more potential. If something 'bad' doesn't happen (like a winter of 'very big data' decision systems, which can affect a lot of those systems, especially financial ones), the situation will be even worse. Labour work in EU/US/Japan-S.Korea-Hong Kong etc will completely be replaced by robots. In banking sector a lot of jobs will be replaced by intelligent systems. Formal education will be replaced - to some degree - by MOOC, etc etc. While some of the elite jobs will still be there (doctors, lawyers, programmers, scientist etc), hundreds of millions will lose their jobs.

All that happening at the same time when the production will be increased exactly cause those systems/robots will be more productive and cheaper. But then people won't have money to buy those goods.

Maybe a minimum wage provided for the unemployed will be the solution.

There's going to be unrest though, what seems like a sci-fi dystopia where companies are more powerful than nations might becomes a reality in our lifetime. It's a vicious cycle, you can replace the workers, but you can't replace the consumer with robots
 
There's going to be unrest though, what seems like a sci-fi dystopia where companies are more powerful than nations might becomes a reality in our lifetime. It's a vicious cycle, you can replace the workers, but you can't replace the consumer with robots
Agree on both points. Ultimatelly, producing more and with lesser cost would be pointless if there aren't people who will buy those goods. Which will neccesarily create an another system.
 
I can't see any reason why a robot couldn't replace a medical or dental GP. They'd be glorious machines.

Could make phenomenal lawyers, too.
 
I can't see any reason why a robot couldn't replace a medical or dental GP. They'd be glorious machines.

Could make phenomenal lawyers, too.
I think that they already are used in medicine, but I think that for some time there will be the need for human doctors. Same for lawyers, although a good system might be a perfect assistent to a lawyer. Imagine having a buddy who knows every law and precedent.
 
I can't see any reason why a robot couldn't replace a medical or dental GP. They'd be glorious machines.

Could make phenomenal lawyers, too.

The overwhelming consensus is that there's be few lawyers and almost 0 legal staff in the future. Legal software is pretty good and getting better. Can't judge on medical GP/dental GP though. Wager a machine that sophisticated would be expensive.
 
The overwhelming consensus is that there's be few lawyers and almost 0 legal staff in the future. Legal software is pretty good and getting better. Can't judge on medical GP/dental GP though. Wager a machine that sophisticated would be expensive.

Human GPs are expensive, too. At least robots could work all hours and never need vacation days. Just thinking about all the things they could do amazes me.
 
Human GPs are expensive, too. At least robots could work all hours and never need vacation days. Just thinking about all the things they could do amazes me.

The first move will be towards more sophisticated software/hardware aiding GPs not outright replacing them. The ethics of AI is fuzzy and it'll be a while before unsupervised machines get to make decisions that have been typically made my human.
 
The first move will be towards more sophisticated software/hardware aiding GPs not outright replacing them. The ethics of AI is fuzzy and it'll be a while before unsupervised machines get to make decisions that have been typically made my human.

No doubt, but it's an exciting future.
 
The first move will be towards more sophisticated software/hardware aiding GPs not outright replacing them. The ethics of AI is fuzzy and it'll be a while before unsupervised machines get to make decisions that have been typically made my human.
Yep. But simple jobs (like jobs in most factories) can be done by machines even now. Just that those robots cost more than they're worthy.

On 20 years though, it will be an another matter. A lot of 'simple' jobs will be replaced IMO. I read something a couple of months ago that this process has already started in Japan.

The hard AI is something else and it will probably need more time, but most of the jobs don't require that. Just some algorithms and some interesting AI algorithms combined with good efficient mechanics, not costing that much and ta-ra, hundreds of millions of jobs become void.

No idea if it is great or scary.
 
No doubt, but it's an exciting future.
Yep. But simple jobs (like jobs in most factories) can be done by machines even now. Just that those robots cost more than they're worthy.

On 20 years though, it will be an another matter. A lot of 'simple' jobs will be replaced IMO. I read something a couple of months ago that this process has already started in Japan.

The hard AI is something else and it will probably need more time, but most of the jobs don't require that. Just some algorithms and some interesting AI algorithms combined with good efficient mechanics, not costing that much and ta-ra, hundreds of millions of jobs become void.

No idea if it is great or scary.

Yea. Concepts like singularity, universal income, abundance, recursively self-improving AI etc have been floating around for a while and it increasingly looks like it'll happen in this lifetime. So in some ways, we're moving from scarcity, which gives birth to supply/demand and current economic paradigm to something fundamentally different.

Personally, I don't think we're approaching a utopian future. It'll be just like this world with better technology. The ride ever ends.
 
Disaster and diseases is human nature tools of balancing, war and destruction is man's tool. There'll be a point where unemployment hike hits a dangerous level.

We're seeing Greece going bankrupt, japan on a big recession, the balance of supply and demand have been distorted too far to be corrected by the invisible hands of economy. There will be war, not to grab land, but to grab whatever job remaining on earth. The workforce is too big for a smaller pie, every technological breakthrough is equal to millions of lost job.
 
Disaster and diseases is human nature tools of balancing, war and destruction is man's tool. There'll be a point where unemployment hike hits a dangerous level.

We're seeing Greece going bankrupt, japan on a big recession, the balance of supply and demand have been distorted too far to be corrected by the invisible hands of economy. There will be war, not to grab land, but to grab whatever job remaining on earth. The workforce is too big for a smaller pie, every technological breakthrough is equal to millions of lost job.

Yet another reason we need to urgently address overpopulation.

Nothing pisses me off quite as much as logging in to Facebook and seeing a girl announce she's pregnant for like the fourth of fifth time. 100+ likes. Nobody seems to know how dire the situation is.
 
The Green Party has been campaigning for a citizen's wage (guaranteed minimum income) for years and as technology encroaches on jobs it'll only become more necessary.
 
The Green Party has been campaigning for a citizen's wage (guaranteed minimum income) for years and as technology encroaches on jobs it'll only become more necessary.

The money comes from somewhere? The multinational companies wont make thst much one if most of the population dont have income to spend. Once the wheels hit it will be like a stalled plane. Very hard to repair. Let's just hope we didnt reach that situation.

It's time for a new invention in economic ideology
 
Yea. Concepts like singularity, universal income, abundance, recursively self-improving AI etc have been floating around for a while and it increasingly looks like it'll happen in this lifetime. So in some ways, we're moving from scarcity, which gives birth to supply/demand and current economic paradigm to something fundamentally different.

Personally, I don't think we're approaching a utopian future. It'll be just like this world with better technology. The ride ever ends.
Neither do I, but I don't think that it is neccesarily a dark future. The resources will grow. Maybe there won't be the mentality of 'you have to earn a living' if there will be millions of machines working for us. Obviously, the rich will become richer, but I don't think that those who will lose the jobs will neccesarily live in total powerty and without any income.

What is sure though, is that the next generation should be a bit smarter and not be content with a job in a factory, cause that job won't be in some time. Getting new skills has become easier than ever, and tha is what people should do (especially the young ones). I think that only intellectual jobs will be available for the human race in the mid future, so that is what people should try to do. That is obviously without counting AI. Then - as I said in some other thread - all bets are off.
 
The money comes from somewhere? The multinational companies wont make thst much one if most of the population dont have income to spend. Once the wheels hit it will be like a stalled plane. Very hard to repair. Let's just hope we didnt reach that situation.

It's time for a new invention in economic ideology
Exactly. A decent minimal wage is pretty much guaranteed in the next 10-20 years IMO.

The problem though is that is by far the least creative solution I can think of. With all those experts, maybe we can do better than that.
 
The money comes from somewhere? The multinational companies wont make thst much one if most of the population dont have income to spend. Once the wheels hit it will be like a stalled plane. Very hard to repair. Let's just hope we didnt reach that situation.

It's time for a new invention in economic ideology
Taxes. It wouldn't even much more than the government (at least UK government) already spends on welfare. The only other alternative I can think of is employing millions of people in made up dystopian jobs. Technology displacing us in the workplace is inevitable, but what we can control is weather that productivity goes towards helping everyone or the handful of already rich people who will undoubtably buy the tech. There's obviously a very very bad track record in wealth redistribution almost everywhere, but I hope there'll be a tipping point where elitist propaganda fails.
 
Another thing that needs to happen is a drastic reduction of the working week. With productivity at an all time high, and only getting higher, and with jobs slowly being automated - doesn't it make sense for people to work fewer hours each? (as opposed to the upward increase of the last few decades). Obviously accompanied by an increase in the hourly wage.
 
Another thing that needs to happen is a drastic reduction of the working week. With productivity at an all time high, and only getting higher, and with jobs slowly being automated - doesn't it make sense for people to work fewer hours each? (as opposed to the upward increase of the last few decades). Obviously accompanied by an increase in the hourly wage.

This will be a fantastic idea. 40 hr workweek is arbitrary.
 
Another thing that needs to happen is a drastic reduction of the working week. With productivity at an all time high, and only getting higher, and with jobs slowly being automated - doesn't it make sense for people to work fewer hours each? (as opposed to the upward increase of the last few decades)
Yes for unskilled jobs, nope for skilled jobs.

Scientists won't start working less. Neither top economists. And many other professions.

Taxes. It wouldn't even much more than the government (at least UK government) already spends on welfare. The only other alternative I can think of is employing millions of people in made up dystopian jobs. Technology displacing us in the workplace is inevitable, but what we can control is weather that productivity goes towards helping everyone or the handful of already rich people who will undoubtably buy the tech. There's obviously a very very bad track record in wealth redistribution almost everywhere, but I hope there'll be a tipping point where elitist propaganda fails.

Point is that the rich won't become richer without the mid/low-class having some income. And providing the income for that class won't be easy considering that they won't have adequate skills to do things which robots can't. Made up dystopian jobs can be a solution, although a very bad one IMO. Giving some money to them (which maybe will be the biggest class) and encouraging them to start learning other things which can be useful is some other solution. Although, not everyone will be able to become a rocket scientist, do machine learning or make a gran theory in physics.

While it can be argued that any job is better than no job 'in cases where there aren't jobs, the state should create jobs by making people dig holes and then filling the same holes' (China is doing something similar with their construction industry), it also can be argued that what is the point of that. Why not give some income to everybody and encourage them to do what they like. Who knows, some of their ideas might contribute more t society than 'digging holes'.
 
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