Cantona v Bruno

Oscar Bonavena said:
Eric Cantona is my favourite United player of all time. He was the missing piece of the jigsaw for that team of the 90s. I loved everything about him, his brilliant goals, assists, style, arrogance, the fact that he was a bit of a dirty bastard at times too!

I'm conscious though I only saw him live once so most of my experience of watching him was whenever a United game was on telly or the highlights on MOTD, so maybe I'm viewing his time at the club through rose tinted glasses.

What are older, match going fans' memories of Eric, who saw more of him live and up close? Did he have lots of stinkers, did he often give the ball away stupidly, but I'm blanking that out of my memory?!

At the moment, I'm comparing Bruno to Eric as they both have/had similar roles in the team (main creator, captain etc.) but at the moment I'm praying for the day Bruno is dropped even for a few games.

Am I being unfair on Bruno in comparing him unfavourably to Cantona? Would Eric have been as wasteful as Bruno in this current United team, or would Bruno have been as brilliant as Eric in that United team of the 90s?!
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I did used to feel that Cantona was disappointing for us in Europe. Not quite stinkers and being wasteful, but he didn’t step up for us like he would in big games at domestic level.

With regards to the Bruno comparison, Bruno is a quality player but he would not have transformed the 90s team like Eric. Eric, on the other hand would be disastrous in this current team because he would have gotten into fights with half of the spineless gits in the dressing room.
 
horsechoker said:
It's a hypothetical but I'm sure Fergie would have time for a player that can play all the time, never gets injured, usually gets a goal or assist and always looks to play it forward. Fergie wasn't obsessed with possession to the extent we are now.
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Ferguson would likely have removed Fernandes or keep him as a squad member.

He's never been world class nor will be. Furthermore, his attitude is questionable.

Cantona was not world class but he was absolutely in the top three EPL players of his era, if not nailed on first, and Europe was a different proposition, then.
 
El Jefe said:
Rooney was such a weird player in that sense. He could have a dogshit run of games and next thing you know a big game comes up and he easily looks like the best player on the pitch on a pitch filled with great players.

To compare him to Bruno, Rooney could be having a stinker but not lose his head to the extent he becomes a liability to the team. He would press, toe the line with a second booking and be aggressive but you still felt it being of use to the team even if he was dreadful on the ball that day. When Bruno loses his head you want him off the pitch immediately because he’s as much of a liability off the ball than on the ball and that’s saying something.
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That's exactly what I had in mind. It's so strange because we all know that he was consistently inconsistent but for some reason he was extremely valuable when it mattered the most or when the team really needed him. And I don't know how to balance his rating, he was great but how great compared to more consistent players that were probably less influential in the biggest games?
 
JPRouve said:
That's exactly what I had in mind. It's so strange because we all know that he was consistently inconsistent but for some reason he was extremely valuable when it mattered the most or when the team really needed him. And I don't know how to balance his rating, he was great but how great compared to more consistent players that were probably less influential in the biggest games?
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Hmmm, I actually thought that for quite a few seasons (2006-2014) he was very consistent. Not the best end product, but he had a pretty good floor and a ridiculously high ceiling, while being quite a big match player. Was probably a top 10-20 player in the world in all those seasons.
 
Crashoutcassius said:
Bruno would have been exceptional in a good Ferguson team.
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Anyone debating this or claiming the opposite is just clueless about football, and subscribes to casual narratives that couldn't be further from the truth.

Not gonna go into the debate itself between him and Cantona, but Bruno is one of the most creative number 10s of the last ~20 years. He would've achieved so much in a stable United under Ferguson, and would've been considered a true PL great by basically anyone.
 
Cantona exists in a completely different galaxy of ability and leadership compared to Bruno. What's next...comparing Cristiano Ronaldo to Marcus Rashford?
 
Irwin99 said:
He could definitely have quiet games and could occasionally be erratic but I think oppo fans were always very scared that he could produce something out of nothing and win the game for us. He had a real knack of doing that, particularly in the league.

The Newcastle game in 96 was a great example. You had Schmeichal keeping us in the game on his own, Keane fighting for everything in midfield and Cantona was the quietest man on the pitch. Then suddenly he scores the goal that wins us the game. He just had that aura that he could win a game with a moment even if he was quiet. Bruno by contrast is more chaotic and tries to force the issue.
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That awful FA cup final Vs the dippers where he scored a half volley whilst leaning back. Amazing technique.
 
Oscar Bonavena said:
Am I being unfair on Bruno in comparing him unfavourably to Cantona?
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No.

Cantona was a much better player.

I have been forced to admit, in very specific contexts, that Cantona may be somewhat overrated by United fans.

But that has nothing to do with what we're talking about here.

Bruno is nowhere near Cantona.
 
Revan said:
Hmmm, I actually thought that for quite a few seasons (2006-2014) he was very consistent. Not the best end product, but he had a pretty good floor and a ridiculously high ceiling, while being quite a big match player. Was probably a top 10-20 player in the world in all those seasons.
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He was inconsistent and extremely streaky. It doesn't mean that his floor wasn't high but Rooney was one of these players that would give you 6 out of 10 games for a couple of months and then 9 out of games for the following two months. That phenomenon is actually reflected in the way he got his output.
 
Rojofiam said:
Anyone debating this or claiming the opposite is just clueless about football, and subscribes to casual narratives that couldn't be further from the truth.

Not gonna go into the debate itself between him and Cantona, but Bruno is one of the most creative number 10s of the last ~20 years. He would've achieved so much in a stable United under Ferguson, and would've been considered a true PL great by basically anyone.
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Bruno wouldn’t get into any of Ferguson’s great teams. He’s a level below United best 10s. There’s no shame in that as you’ve had some magical players in that position.

And yes, if you decided to play him instead of superior options, he would have scored goals, made assists and picked up trophies. But that’s not really saying a lot. If we built a Time Machine and replaced Ljungberg with Walcott in the Invincibles era, Walcott would have scored goals, made assists and won major trophies.

With elite teams during their dominant era, the hardest part can actually be the internal competition for places, which Bruno would have lost because he simply isn’t as good a player as those SAF had in his best squads (let alone the PL for the last two decades).
 
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Daydreamer said:
Bruno wouldn’t get into any of Ferguson’s great teams. He’s a level below United best 10s. There’s no shame in that as you’ve had some magical players in that position.

And yes, if you decided to play him instead of superior options, he would have scored goals, made assists and picked up trophies. But that’s not really saying a lot. If we built a Time Machine and replaced Ljungberg with Walcott in the Invincibles era, Walcott would have scored goals, made assists and won major trophies.

With elite teams during their dominant era, the hardest part can actually be the internal competition for places, which Bruno would have lost because he simply isn’t as good a player as those SAF had in his best squads (let alone the PL for the last two decades).
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You are comparing Bruno to Walcott? And in another thread putting Odegaard above him. I don't think you realize how good he is tbh.

And which #10s are you talking about from the Ferguson era?
 
There's a massive gulf between these two players.

Eric Cantona was the type of player and personality that inspired others to do better. He was immense at his peak and played with genuine passion, with a hint of arrogance that meant a moment of magic was always possible.

Bruno is (not recently, but on the whole) a very good attacking midfielder who could probably be part of a top side, but as a cog in the machine rather than the driving force that Cantona was.

I would say the gulf in these players when everything is taken into account would be similar to the gulf between prime Ronaldo and Nani.
 
Oscar Bonavena said:
Leeds came back later and accepted an offer of just under a million, but Fergie said that Leeds asked that the fee be reported as 1.1m or something to make it more palatable to the Leeds fans who would be going mental!

A piece of opportunist genius from Fergie and absolute steal of the century!
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We went from that to paying 60 millions for Mason Mount, who was in his last year of contract and Chelsea was desperate to sell. :lol:
 
Irwin99 said:
He could definitely have quiet games and could occasionally be erratic but I think oppo fans were always very scared that he could produce something out of nothing and win the game for us. He had a real knack of doing that, particularly in the league.

The Newcastle game in 96 was a great example. You had Schmeichal keeping us in the game on his own, Keane fighting for everything in midfield and Cantona was the quietest man on the pitch. Then suddenly he scores the goal that wins us the game. He just had that aura that he could win a game with a moment even if he was quiet. Bruno by contrast is more chaotic and tries to force the issue.
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I think to understand that opposition's feelings, our own fans can remember the times we were up against Liverpool with Suarez up top. That same kind of unpredictable dread.
 
Rojofiam said:
You are comparing Bruno to Walcott? And in another thread putting Odegaard above him. I don't think you realize how good he is tbh.

And which #10s are you talking about from the Ferguson era?
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Walcott got pace, which is an attribute the CAF tends to be obsessed with.
 
Possibly the most unbalanced/ridiculous comparison in RedCafe history
 
Oscar Bonavena said:
Eric Cantona is my favourite United player of all time. He was the missing piece of the jigsaw for that team of the 90s. I loved everything about him, his brilliant goals, assists, style, arrogance, the fact that he was a bit of a dirty bastard at times too!

I'm conscious though I only saw him live once so most of my experience of watching him was whenever a United game was on telly or the highlights on MOTD, so maybe I'm viewing his time at the club through rose tinted glasses.

What are older, match going fans' memories of Eric, who saw more of him live and up close? Did he have lots of stinkers, did he often give the ball away stupidly, but I'm blanking that out of my memory?!

At the moment, I'm comparing Bruno to Eric as they both have/had similar roles in the team (main creator, captain etc.) but at the moment I'm praying for the day Bruno is dropped even for a few games.

Am I being unfair on Bruno in comparing him unfavourably to Cantona? Would Eric have been as wasteful as Bruno in this current United team, or would Bruno have been as brilliant as Eric in that United team of the 90s?!
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Cantona wasn't a wasteful ball player, he could be quiet in matches yes but he was very efficient. Cantona had a nearly goal for every other game for France too back when international football was a lot tougher to get big numbers. They play different positions anyway a better comparison would be 02-03 Scholes who was obviously a beast and clearly a better player.
 
SirAF said:
Exactly.
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Ah yeah, I meant to reply to the person you said ‘huh’ to, not to you directly!

I’m not a Utd fan but it’s difficult not to respect Cantona. He clearly lives life on his own terms, speaks his mind, couldn’t give a crap if the English press vilify him or call him crazy. Would be nice if there were more footballers like that tbh.
 
Top_Bins said:
That awful FA cup final Vs the dippers where he scored a half volley whilst leaning back. Amazing technique.
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Yeah true. I always remember there was one incident where he lost the ball after scoring the winning goal in the cup final and Keane went absolutely ballistic at him after Keane got the tackle in to stop the break. Eric could have a quiet game or a game where he wasn't influencing the play as much but you'd never take Cantona off the pitch because of his ability to make something out of nothing.
 
Rojofiam said:
You are comparing Bruno to Walcott? And in another thread putting Odegaard above him. I don't think you realize how good he is tbh.

And which #10s are you talking about from the Ferguson era?
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I’m not comparing Bruno to Walcott. Having said that, Walcott racked up 181 G/A for Arsenal with an all round game that could be lacking at times… so it’s not like there aren’t similarities.

And yes, I rated Odegaard above Bruno. That’s not an even remotely controversial opinion anywhere other than a United forum. And even in that thread you had multiple United fans who came to the same conclusion.

I would play:
- Scholes
- Rooney
- Cantona
- Berbatov
- Yorke
- Tevez
Ahead of Bruno. And that’s just off the top of my head and strictly in 10 / False 9. If we were trying to squeeze him in deeper in midfield or on the wing, we’d be here all day.
 
This thread epitomises the issue we have with Bruno. We’ve built him up into this icon / hero figure purely on the basis of assist and chance creation stats. He’s a good footballer but nowhere near a great one and never will be. To compare him to our greats is genuinely insulting. Cantina won 5 league titles in 6 years - he was an unstoppable force and one of the league’s greatest. What next? Rashford vs Ronaldo / Giggs?
 
Daydreamer said:
I’m not comparing Bruno to Walcott. Having said that, Walcott racked up 181 G/A for Arsenal with an all round game that could be lacking at times… so it’s not like there aren’t similarities.

And yes, I rated Odegaard above Bruno. That’s not an even remotely controversial opinion anywhere other than a United forum. And even in that thread you had multiple United fans who came to the same conclusion.

I would play:
- Scholes
- Rooney
- Cantona
- Berbatov
- Yorke
- Tevez
Ahead of Bruno. And that’s just off the top of my head and strictly in 10 / False 9. If we were trying to squeeze him in deeper in midfield or on the wing, we’d be here all day.
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Most of those players played in entirely different positions to Bruno though.
 
Oscar Bonavena said:
Eric Cantona is my favourite United player of all time. He was the missing piece of the jigsaw for that team of the 90s. I loved everything about him, his brilliant goals, assists, style, arrogance, the fact that he was a bit of a dirty bastard at times too!

I'm conscious though I only saw him live once so most of my experience of watching him was whenever a United game was on telly or the highlights on MOTD, so maybe I'm viewing his time at the club through rose tinted glasses.

What are older, match going fans' memories of Eric, who saw more of him live and up close? Did he have lots of stinkers, did he often give the ball away stupidly, but I'm blanking that out of my memory?!

At the moment, I'm comparing Bruno to Eric as they both have/had similar roles in the team (main creator, captain etc.) but at the moment I'm praying for the day Bruno is dropped even for a few games.

Am I being unfair on Bruno in comparing him unfavourably to Cantona? Would Eric have been as wasteful as Bruno in this current United team, or would Bruno have been as brilliant as Eric in that United team of the 90s?!
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Cantona is my favorite United player of all times, as well. He is arguably one of the best who has ever played, let alone played for United, so comparing pretty much ANYBODY to him would be tough on that somebody. I wouldn't do it to Bruno, who probably is not even in top 50 of best players who ever played for United, if you look at his entire tenure, let alone able to compare to somebody like Eric the King.

In his current form, Bruno is unfortunately just shit. To even mention him as a good player, we'd have to go to much earlier times of him being here.
 
Better comparison would be Bruno and Nani. Who can give the ball away more but never lose any fans.
 
horsechoker said:
Cantona will always win on nostalgia factor and I think he was the better player but if you put Bruno in place of Cantona in Fergie's United he'd look a hell of a lot better and Cantona would probably not be able to drag this United team to titles.
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This.

If ten Hags fledglings were Musiala, Bellingham, Lamar (akin to Giggs, Scholes, Beckham) then I could see Bruno helping us towards a title.

Unfortunately he’s got Zirkzee, Antony, Amad and a bunch of crocks for senior players.
 
Pickle85 said:
Most of those players played in entirely different positions to Bruno though.
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Of course. Because most of those players played in entirely different formations. And also, they had far higher competition for places than Bruno faces, so they couldn’t always play in their preferred position. But all of them played 10/AM/SS for United and their nationals teams at throughout their career. They are who Bruno would have to displace if we were to (unjustifiably in my opinion) select him in a great Ferguson team. And they’re all superior players to Bruno.

Unless you were thinking Bruno would play CM in one of the great Ferguson 4-4-2s? In which case the list would be even longer.
 
Daydreamer said:
I’m not comparing Bruno to Walcott. Having said that, Walcott racked up 181 G/A for Arsenal with an all round game that could be lacking at times… so it’s not like there aren’t similarities.

And yes, I rated Odegaard above Bruno. That’s not an even remotely controversial opinion anywhere other than a United forum. And even in that thread you had multiple United fans who came to the same conclusion.

I would play:
- Scholes
- Rooney
- Cantona
- Berbatov
- Yorke
- Tevez
Ahead of Bruno. And that’s just off the top of my head and strictly in 10 / False 9. If we were trying to squeeze him in deeper in midfield or on the wing, we’d be here all day.
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Those guys weren't 10s.

Scholes and Rooney are the two closest and they're still different types. I don't think the post-2012 version of Rooney is better than Bruno tbh. He started heavily declining physically as early as Ferguson's last season, and I'd take 2020-2021 Bruno over that version of him easily.

Scholes was an #8 for me, and a controlling midfielder type, who played deeper. Bruno is a creative #10. Pointless comparison, even though Scholes could've done Bruno's job and overall he was the superior player.

I don't think Odegaard is on Bruno's level at all.

I've discussed this in other threads, not sure if it was with you or someone else, but Odegaard is not nearly as creative. He does the pre-planned pattern moves as an important cog in Arteta's system, which does get him assists and goals, but Bruno is actually creative, and spontaneous. I'd like my #10 to be like Bruno, instead of having much more "controlled" creativity like Odegaard. Other examples I listed are Özil and KDB from the Premier League. You give players like them the keys, and they'll run your attack and the creativity will be sufficient enough. Odegaard doesn't even run Arsenal's attack, it's Saka who does that.

Put Bruno at #10 into an elite side like Arsenal, and let him be the focal point of your attack, and his output will be insane compared to Odegaard's. All the players around him would be more comfortable too IMO.
 
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I never get these current player vs 90's player debates as it's practically a different sport and it's mostly speculative to imagine how a player would transition to a different time, however a handful of truly great players like Cantona could be imagined playing in any era, he was physically and mentally strong but also had subtle skill and football intelligence, some would say he wouldn't last long with modern refs, but he never did anyway. On the other side trying to imagine Bruno in another era of football would require vast quantities of psychedelic drugs.
 
Cantona made everyone better. Simple. He was great player. Not best in the world but he had that amazing aura around him that was something else. Also very, very intelligent player.
 
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VivaObertan said:
This.

If ten Hags fledglings were Musiala, Bellingham, Lamar (akin to Giggs, Scholes, Beckham) then I could see Bruno helping us towards a title.

Unfortunately he’s got Zirkzee, Antony, Amad and a bunch of crocks for senior players.
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If Utd had Musiala and Bellingham, Bruno would be sold
 
I haven't read the thread but come on! Bruno would would take him within 2 rounds max.
 
doubleohseven said:
Ferguson would likely have removed Fernandes or keep him as a squad member.

He's never been world class nor will be. Furthermore, his attitude is questionable.

Cantona was not world class but he was absolutely in the top three EPL players of his era, if not nailed on first, and Europe was a different proposition, then.
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He came 3rd in the Ballon d'Or in 1994 ahead of Laudrup, Baresi and Maldini, and only behind Baggio and Bergkamp. He was also easily the best player in the PL from 1992 - 1997.
 
Both are very talented but in terms of personality Cantona is the opposite of Bruno. Cantona had a strong mentality and a larger than life personality. He's one of those players with great presence and influence. Bruno works so hard but often lacks any composure, and when we're under pressure, he's one of the first players to show frustration and drop in quality. He isn't influential in the slightest, even though I'm sure he's a great guy.

Now would Cantona be able to fix this team? Probably not, but he had the personality that this team lacks and he'd have been a great addition.
 
Seems like a completely pointless thread. There's no comparison really.

I didn't think Bruno is in anyway similar and doesn't inspire his teammates to greater heights. He came into the team and got a lot of goals and assists but his influence has waned and I'd never consider him a talisman in the way Cantona was.

What's the point of this thread, OP?
 
Rojofiam said:
Those guys weren't 10s.

Scholes and Rooney are the two closest and they're still different types. I don't think the post-2012 version of Rooney is better than Bruno tbh. He started heavily declining physically as early as Ferguson's last season, and I'd take 2020-2021 Bruno over that version of him easily.

Scholes was an #8 for me, and a controlling midfielder type, who played deeper. Bruno is a creative #10. Pointless comparison, even though Scholes could've done Bruno's job and overall he was the superior player.

I don't think Odegaard is on Bruno's level at all.

I've discussed this in other threads, but Odegaard is not nearly as creative. He does the pre-planned pattern moves as an important cog in Arteta's system, but Bruno is actually creative, and spontaneous. I'd like my #10 to be like Bruno, instead of having much more "controlled" creativity like Odegaard. Other examples I listed are Özil and KDB from the Premier League. You give players like them the keys, and they'll run your attack and the creativity will be sufficient enough. Odegaard doesn't even run Arsenal's attack, it's Saka who does that.

Put Bruno at #10 into an elite side like Arsenal, and let him be the focal point of your attack, and his output will be insane compared to Odegaard's. All the players around him would be more comfortable too IMO.
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If Cantona, Berbatov, Yorke or Tevez were playing today, you play them in a free role behind the striker.

I appreciate you calling Arsenal an elite side. I don’t think we are quite yet, but I do think we’re the second best side in the country and one of the top teams in Europe. And one of the big reasons for that is Odegaard. And when you look at the playmakers for other top European sides:

Odegaard
Trossard
de Bruyne
Silva
Bellingham
Modric
Pedri
Olmo
Musiala
Muller

You’ll see teams have not just one, but at least two, players capable of looking after the ball better than Bruno. The more quality you have in your team, the less your team mates will tolerate being wasteful on the ball. It’s one thing ignoring Anthony in space to take a long shot. It’s quite another doing so with Saka, Gnabry, Rodrygo, Silva, Yamal.

Leaving aside that when you exclude penalties Bruno’s and Odegaard’s G/A was pretty much on par last season, Arsenal scored the most goals in our history last year. Odegaard contributes to that by ensuring we dominate the majority of our games. Bruno decision-making means a high frequency of riskier passes and shots. That’s great for his personal stats, but is hurting his team.

I also personally prefer to watch an Ozil over an Odegaard. But we’re a far more formidable side with Odegaard.
 
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Oscar Bonavena said:
I think the Leeds chairman rang Martin Edwards enquiring about signing a United player (can't remember who) but whoever it was wasn't for sale.

Fergie was in Edwards' office and said to Edwards "ask him about Cantona". Leeds weren't having a good season and there were rumours Howard Wilkinson wasn't get on with Cantona. Instead of telling Edwards to get stuffed, the Leeds chairman said "let me get back to you". So it was obvious Leeds were willing to listen to offers and get Cantona off their hands, his relationship with Wilkinson had broken down.

Leeds came back later and accepted an offer of just under a million, but Fergie said that Leeds asked that the fee be reported as 1.1m or something to make it more palatable to the Leeds fans who would be going mental!

A piece of opportunist genius from Fergie and absolute steal of the century!
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He asked about Irwin.
 
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