Can anyone's view on ETH change this season?

Wing Attack Plan R said:
This sounds like Ten Hag’s decisions were made in vacuum, and not that he lost his 1st through 4th center backs, his left back was out long term, and his midfield was decimated. Ten Had changed it up so the personnel he has available could do what he asked. Add to that Rashford suddenly going cold, Martial also out injured, and Antony playing like his controller was broken. Ten Hag is not blameless, but there were extenuating circumstances.
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No. He dumped his philosophy (the so called cutting edge football for which he was hired) as early as the third Pl game of his career. After the 4-0 loss to Brentford he knew that one or two more of this and he would be gone just like De Boer. Basically played Oleball since. The wheels came off after February 2023 and have not come back in since. So yeah, a total imposter.
 
red.knight said:
I will not change my views on ETH this season. He deserves another chance next season with a proper structure above him. We cant keep sacking managers and leaving the next guy with players that might not fit their playing style, as we've seen over and over. Rangnick made it clear: Unless we're prepared to rebuild the entire squad and reshape the club's foundations, no coach can turn around the current situation at Manchester united. Last year was proof that he is the man for the job, but injuries to important players has played a huge part in our inconsistency this season. ETH needs time.
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You do realize that the aim of this "proper structure" is that there will be no such thing as "the next guy with players who do not fit his playing style", right? Interesting how when doings are going OK it's proof that the coach is the right man but when it's going terribly it's everything but the coach that's bad.
 
Yes . Mine has , but hes still the guy we need. The transfers have been rubbish I don't know if he's been given a free reign on them ?
Antony you can forgive a little as the price went up and up and up...and he should have pulled out.. I can't get over the Mount one or the Keeper, imo we should have gone all out for Rice and Kane..
Wasted it on Antony Mount and Onana..

Out of them Onana may just may be good enough the other 2 no.. I've just lost confidence in his transfer ability after those 3 at least
 
Considering I was Mr. ‘Look at what he’s done after only 1 season’ to now being Mr. ‘Losing 14 games before Christmas should lead to automatically being sacked’ I don’t see my mind changing.

We ended the season very poorly last year & I gave him the benefit of any doubt leading into this year but the performance this season is unacceptable.

If the guy were to go on an unprecedented run then of course opinions will change but based on what we have been witness to since around February a marginal upturn in form won’t change my mind on him.

He is not the manager to lead us to a better United.
 
red.knight said:
I will not change my views on ETH this season. He deserves another chance next season with a proper structure above him. We cant keep sacking managers and leaving the next guy with players that might not fit their playing style, as we've seen over and over. Rangnick made it clear: Unless we're prepared to rebuild the entire squad and reshape the club's foundations, no coach can turn around the current situation at Manchester united. Last year was proof that he is the man for the job, but injuries to important players has played a huge part in our inconsistency this season. ETH needs time.
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Based on?
 
Wing Attack Plan R said:
This sounds like Ten Hag’s decisions were made in vacuum, and not that he lost his 1st through 4th center backs, his left back was out long term, and his midfield was decimated. Ten Had changed it up so the personnel he has available could do what he asked. Add to that Rashford suddenly going cold, Martial also out injured, and Antony playing like his controller was broken. Ten Hag is not blameless, but there were extenuating circumstances.
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You mean he’s added to these extenuating circumstances by failing to improve his big money signing in Antony who he continues to favour over other forwards. He knew the guy from Ajax, for him to still be doing the same nonsense after 18 months is in no small part a coaching issue.

What you’ve done above is cited issues EtH has faced as if he operates in a vacuum whilst other managers get a free run.

With Ineos coming in demands will actually grow & whilst he might no longer have the run of the squad he’ll have to prove he can work on the training pitch. He’s actually had a favourable go at it with the ownership saga diverting some attention.

With all the factors you mention above none of those are a valid excuse for losing 14 games before New Year.
 
The problem is he’s pretty much wasted two seasons, signings have been terrible and squad needs same level of rebuild as when he joined. The way the team plays hasn’t evolved and again isn’t really any different to when he took over.

He hasn’t really got anything to build on unless there is a dramatic improvement in a number of areas in a very short space of time. This is still a two or three year rebuild at least and I don’t think he is in a position to see that through.
 
Barring and unprecedented turnaround, and I'm talking title winning form for the remaining 18 games, there's nothing he could do to convince me that he's the right man for the job.

Players returning and us starting to play better won't really do much for me as I'll still know that we are always 1-2 injuries away from falling apart and having no shape whatsoever and it is not sustainable.
 
The problem we have created, yet again, is giving a manager carte blanche to create a team in his image which will do nothing but cause problems for his replacement. Yet again we will be looking at 2-3 seasons to fix this mess and if we don't do it properly (again) then history will just repeat. Yes you can get lucky and appoint a fantastic manager and things just work but in modern football you don't put all your eggs in one basket, you plan for failure. You have the structure in place to make replacing managers as easy, cheap and seamless as possible.

EtH has spent a lot of money on players that are unlikely to be tearing up the league in 2 seasons whether he is here or not. What sort of football will his replacement want to play?

If he gets us top 4 and we show some signs of playing some sort of stylised football that is pleasing on the eye he should stay. Otherwise, once the new structure is in place and we have a longer term vision, he should be replaced. I was 100% team Ten Hag when he arrived. Hes simply not delivered.
 
Sarni said:
Barring and unprecedented turnaround, and I'm talking title winning form for the remaining 18 games, there's nothing he could do to convince me that he's the right man for the job.

Players returning and us starting to play better won't really do much for me as I'll still know that we are always 1-2 injuries away from falling apart and having no shape whatsoever and it is not sustainable.
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Indeed. And it is also important to quantify how much better we will be playing. Playing better football should mean feck all, the baseline is very low. West Ham plays better football than us, Aston Villa and Brighton play miles better football than us. If we reach West Ham/Brighton level, or even Aston Villa level, for half a season, after half a season where we played football that made Rangnick look competent, he should still be fired.
 
Revan said:
Indeed. And it is also important to quantify how much better we will be playing. Playing better football should mean feck all, the baseline is very low. West Ham plays better football than us, Aston Villa and Brighton play miles better football than us. If we reach West Ham/Brighton level, or even Aston Villa level, for half a season, after half a season where we played football that made Rangnick look competent, he should still be fired.
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Aye. Plus as I said, if a couple of first team players being out can cause us to collapse to this extent, it doesn't really matter how we look with everyone fully fit as this will basically never be the case. We will almost always have players out.
 
If city or Liverpool had lost their first and second choice left backs, first choice centre back partnership and two of last season's midfield three within a few weeks of the season starting, they would have struggled.

Whilst Ten Hag has made many clear mistakes, he's not been helped by that ridiculous amount of injuries. If, once the players return, we start to a better style of play and more consistent performances (alongside maybe winning the Fa Cup) he buys himself another summer with the fans and more importantly with Ratcliffe. If the next 6 weeks or so goes badly, he doesn't make it to Easter. Heck, if we lose the next two, I think he might walk.
 
Not yet, the clubs football side needs a modern infrastructure first.
 
I am in the "not yet" camp, only because I am more interested in what INEOS does to the club structure. I think all managers are set to fail as it stands.
Surely, there will be managers who can do a much better job than what ETH is doing now, but they will all fail soon in this structure. I am hoping we can concentrate on what the club needs and revisit the manager position by the end of season.

For your question, I think if we keep on sliding down to lower half of the table, his position becomes untenable. It is like a hangman game. A few more wrong results and it is game over.

For what its worth, what we should not do is hire Potter or worse extend ETH early.
 
TwoSheds said:
I would suggest that a lot of the Ten Hag out people's views already have changed this season so clearly Ten Hag In can become Ten Hag Out. Only question is can it happen the other way around? I think yes if results are good for a consistent run of 4, 5, 6 games.
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I think that's the worst thing that could potentially happen, i.e. us having another span of 5-6 good games and starting to think all is good.

We'd be back to square one next season, albeit with another £200m or so worth of dross and a few more players alienated.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Pretty sure he’ll change most peoples minds if he gets a full squad back in January and one or two signings (be on loan or not) and shows some real quality for the next 3 to 4 months.
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Could be the same the other way around too - I'm still backing him as it's mid season, there's little out there in the way of alternatives, and we've been forced to field a mishmash of different lineups, mostly using players who aren't suited to playing the style of football we're aiming for.

Once we have a full squad I'm expecting to see an upturn in results and performances, if that doesn't happen then it'll be time to start asking questions.
 
Other teams, though not all, appear to cope better than us when they bring in other players due to injuries. Whatever team we put out appears to be a collection of unknowns and I still cannot fathom what our tactics are supposed to be. EtH should be able to set up a team to play in a certain way but that is not how things look. A perfect example is the use of Hojlund who appears lost up front. Is this because he’s useless or because he gets little supply and most of that is poor. I think ten Hag is losing ( lost) the plot. Poor recruitment and poor tactics. A recipe for the disaster which is unfolding.
 
I don't know, my mind is 99% made up that he's not up to the job and it would take a hell of a turnaround in form to change it.

And he might shithouse his way to a top 6 finish by scraping unconvincing wins against bottom half fodder (which is where most of our wins have come from) but that's not enough to fool most fans.

The style of play has been dire and the attacking output has been an embarrassment of historical proportions.

And that's all before we get into his judgement of players which has been atrocious. The Antony fiasco has been well documented here, but even the Mason Mount signing is a shocking indictment of him.

Even most of us "know nothing" fans were questioning why we needed to expend so much time, energy and money securing this signing when there was no obvious role or need for him in the team.
 
Happy to change my mind but I probably won't. I'm just not convinced. We play atrocious football, and I can't remember the last time I really enjoyed watching us play. I'm yet to see a manager change significantly after a year and a half in charge. Sure Klopp needed time to get Liverpool to challenge, but you could clearly see what he wanted to do. I just don't know what we're getting at the moment. A year and a half and 400m spent, are we really any better?
 
Someone said:
Happy to change my mind but I probably won't. I'm just not convinced. We play atrocious football, and I can't remember the last time I really enjoyed watching us play. I'm yet to see a manager change significantly after a year and a half in charge. Sure Klopp needed time to get Liverpool to challenge, but you could clearly see what he wanted to do. I just don't know what we're getting at the moment. A year and a half and 400m spent, are we really any better?
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Nope. 21 defeats in a calendar year is damning.

It's basically the same type of football Solskajer produced. Just with better counter pressing and worse chance creation/finishing. The defending has been poor for awhile now as well.

I wanted ten Hag to become the United manager. I was very happy to see the back of Solskajer. But ten Hag has never convinced me. Not even last season when he was on a good run of wins between September and January.

He doesn't want to build a possession oriented team with dynamism. He basically wants to become Solskjaer's football on steroids.
 
TwoSheds said:
I think yes if results are good for a consistent run of 4, 5, 6 games.
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I agree.
But I just don't see how he can get 6 good results in a row.
Generally, we lose 1 or 2 then win 1 or 2.
Lose 1 or 2 and then win 1 or 2.
I think the way we are playing now is ETH's final vision of where he sees us heading and it's dire.

The Dutch managers don't seem to work too well at our club.
 
Revan said:
West Ham plays better football than us, Aston Villa and Brighton play miles better football than us. If we reach West Ham/Brighton level, or even Aston Villa level, for half a season, after half a season where we played football that made Rangnick look competent, he should still be fired.
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Correct.
My mind is already made up - he should be fired BUT I think the new bosses should arrive first and carry out an evaluation and shortlist candidates. Once we have a candidate, ETH should be told that he'll be gone in the Summer.
The new manager will arrive soon after and we can now build a team with the new regime.

ETH has proved beyond doubt, that he simply isn't good enough for the EPL. He did well with Ajax - that's what put him on the map. Why the hell has he not attempted to recreate that system, albeit with a bigger budget and better players?
Even Donny Van DB has been axed. This is the player who knew how to play the Ajax/ETH way.
He has completely abandoned the system which was proven, tried and tested.

Nothing about ETH makes any sense.
 
I'm still in the wanting him out camp.

We have just won against a Wigan team that plays in Football League One (two divisions below the Premier League), and we looked good.
However far too many times under his stewardship, in fact, far far far too many times, we have been absolutely poor against teams in our own division - the Premier League.

For that reason I want him gone, as he is not the person to take us closer to winning the Premier League or the Champions League.
 
Scandi Red said:
I'm on the fence because of the unprecedented injury situation. I have no idea what to expect when a team gets this unlucky with injuries. I haven't seen it before and therefore I have nothing to compare it with. The issue isn't just that most of our best players have been injured for most of the season. Even the backups have been injured a lot. This has made it impossible to field a relatively consistent starting XI. So here's where I'm at:

If we start playing well once the injury crisis is resolved, then it kind of redeems Ten Hag in my opinion. It proves that the issue was simply the unprecedented injury situation.

If we start playing well despite still having lots of injuries then I'm not sure what to make of it... Why did it take us so long to adjust?

If we keep being poor, but still have lots of injuries then I have no idea what to make of it... But I guess I'm leaning towards sack.

If we keep being poor, even with no/few injuries? Definitely sack!
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When you get 1-2 injuries at the beginning of season, that was bad luck. When half of the squad get injured at the beginning of season, this is mis-management of pre-season.

Sacking the manager in the middle of season is always a bad idea, unless you can find someone better, even as interim, for better result. I really can't see ETH staying beyond this summer. His training method is obviously Middle Ages, recruitment strategy is average if not poor, tactics is 50-50, sometimes work but not always. Dressing room is non-toxic but not inspirational. So when is left to be exciting with?
 
sunama said:
Correct.
My mind is already made up - he should be fired BUT I think the new bosses should arrive first and carry out an evaluation and shortlist candidates. Once we have a candidate, ETH should be told that he'll be gone in the Summer.
The new manager will arrive soon after and we can now build a team with the new regime.

ETH has proved beyond doubt, that he simply isn't good enough for the EPL. He did well with Ajax - that's what put him on the map. Why the hell has he not attempted to recreate that system, albeit with a bigger budget and better players?
Even Donny Van DB has been axed. This is the player who knew how to play the Ajax/ETH way.
He has completely abandoned the system which was proven, tried and tested.

Nothing about ETH makes any sense.
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Erik was quite clear that he doesn't think Van de Beek is the same player after all his injuries in fairness. But yes, I agree that where he seemed to be getting something extra out of e.g. Tadic and Haller at Ajax, he seems to be doing the opposite to Bruno and Hojlund right now and I don't really see what he's doing to try to change it at the moment.
 
Im for sacking him (actually amongst the first 25% of the CAF) but if the football improves rapidly and if it looks like he has a clue why shouldn’t I change my vote to keep? I honestly doubt that will happen but nothing is written in stone
 
Well, we need evidence to change our minds. It will go against everything I've learnt watching the game, for him to suddenly turn us around and be a success here. But I'll be thrilled to be wrong. The product on the pitch is simply poor. Doesn't show signs of the kind of football that will compete at the top. Is it just the players out and the quality of the squad? We should find out soon.
 
Last night changed my mind on him, he might as well stay until the end of the season or whatever but he’s not upto the job and I can’t make excuses for him anymore. The line up itself was frustrating enough another tumescent performance despite a week on the training pitch.
 
Some of the newer fans need to watch the Stick to Football episode which featured Jaap Stam. Keeping all the tactics and man management aside, Sir Alex was first and foremost a risk taker, a gambler as Keano mentioned. We would throw players in numbers in attack and create overloads trusting our central defenders and keeper to handle situations at the back if they arose due to our attacking impetus. That is the reason we scored a lot of goals and could get a lot of late goals. Besides having confidence and belief we created conditions in attack to harry the opposition defenses and force them into mistakes. Unlike now, where we play in slow motion in front of the opposition defense and then ultimately cross the ball which is easily dismissed by their central defenders.

That has been my frustration with all our permanent managers from Moyes to ETH, none of them are risk takers. They have been too afraid to lose and revert to the same football.

In short, for me, either as a manager you have it or not. ETH is not a young ingenue, he is an experienced campaigner and we have seen what he brings to the table. May be he'll have a half decent season for the rest of this one under little to no pressure, but ultimately I have seen enough to know that he doesn't possess those qualities that would make him a big title winning United manager.
 
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Insanity said:
Some of the newer fans need to watch the Stick to Football episode which featured Jaap Stam. Keeping all the tactics and man management aside, Sir Alex was first and foremost a risk taker, a gambler as Keano mentioned. We would throw players in numbers in attack and create overloads trusting our central defenders and keeper to handle situations at the back if they arose due to our attacking impetus. That is the reason we scored a lot of goals and could get a lot of late goals. Besides having confidence and belief we created conditions in attack to harry the opposition defenses and force them into mistakes. Unlike now, where we play in slow motion in front of the opposition defense and then ultimately cross the ball which us easily dismissed by their central defenders.

That has been my frustration with all our permanent managers from Moyes to ETH, none of them are risk takers. They have been too afraid to lose and revert to the same football.

In short, for me, either as a manager you have it or not. ETH is not a young ingenue, he is an experienced campaigner and we have seen what he brings to the table. May be he'll have a half decent season for the rest of this one under little to no pressure, but ultimately I have seen enough to know that he doesn't possess those qualities that would make him a big title winning United manager.
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Great post. The only times we look exciting these days is if we're 2-0 down and abandon his tactics. When you're past the halfway point and you're on a - goal difference and you're top scorer in all competitions has 6 goals, something is seriously wrong.
 
Insanity said:
Some of the newer fans need to watch the Stick to Football episode which featured Jaap Stam. Keeping all the tactics and man management aside, Sir Alex was first and foremost a risk taker, a gambler as Keano mentioned. We would throw players in numbers in attack and create overloads trusting our central defenders and keeper to handle situations at the back if they arose due to our attacking impetus. That is the reason we scored a lot of goals and could get a lot of late goals. Besides having confidence and belief we created conditions in attack to harry the opposition defenses and force them into mistakes. Unlike now, where we play in slow motion in front of the opposition defense and then ultimately cross the ball which is easily dismissed by their central defenders.

That has been my frustration with all our permanent managers from Moyes to ETH, none of them are risk takers. They have been too afraid to lose and revert to the same football.

In short, for me, either as a manager you have it or not. ETH is not a young ingenue, he is an experienced campaigner and we have seen what he brings to the table. May be he'll have a half decent season for the rest of this one under little to no pressure, but ultimately I have seen enough to know that he doesn't possess those qualities that would make him a big title winning United manager.
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Excellently and eloquently put.
 
VP89 said:
I wanted to ask this question to both camps:
Those for Ten Hag - what would need to happen this season for you to prefer his exit?
Those against Ten Hag - is there anything that can be salvaged this season for you to think he might be able to turn it around for us?

This is not designed to turn into an us vs them situation among posters entrenched in either side. It's more gauging what's needed for sentiment to change on both sides.

For me, I'm still backing our manager but I would probably stop trusting him & be indifferent to part ways if we exited the FA Cup to a team we should really beat + fell out of CL places by season's end. His CL disaster, poor transfer windows and open games in the first third of the season has made me question him for sure, but I want to give him a chance to turn it around in the second half. By turn it around though, I want results and wouldn't really hang my hat on injuries or circumstance any further - doubt even the staunchest defender of Ten Hag can argue with a whole season of underperformance.
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Yes definitely. I'm reluctantly in the EtH out camp because I just feel that it's been too bad for too long without clear signs of progress.

However, I accept there are mitigating circumstances and I actually like the way he talks and his man-management. I don't even mind his signings to be honest, I think he's been a bit unlucky with some of them.

I'd love us to get a few players back and start turning in some performances that show promise for next season.
 
Insanity said:
Some of the newer fans need to watch the Stick to Football episode which featured Jaap Stam. Keeping all the tactics and man management aside, Sir Alex was first and foremost a risk taker, a gambler as Keano mentioned. We would throw players in numbers in attack and create overloads trusting our central defenders and keeper to handle situations at the back if they arose due to our attacking impetus. That is the reason we scored a lot of goals and could get a lot of late goals. Besides having confidence and belief we created conditions in attack to harry the opposition defenses and force them into mistakes. Unlike now, where we play in slow motion in front of the opposition defense and then ultimately cross the ball which is easily dismissed by their central defenders.

That has been my frustration with all our permanent managers from Moyes to ETH, none of them are risk takers. They have been too afraid to lose and revert to the same football.

In short, for me, either as a manager you have it or not. ETH is not a young ingenue, he is an experienced campaigner and we have seen what he brings to the table. May be he'll have a half decent season for the rest of this one under little to no pressure, but ultimately I have seen enough to know that he doesn't possess those qualities that would make him a big title winning United manager.
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I watched that episode on it's release and immediately thought Eth is miles away from that level that Keane mentioned from the truly great managers of the game. It's one of the most insightful episodes of what the top of the game is and a reason why SAF brilliance is constantly understated on this forum with the idea that being given time was the function of his brilliance. As shown with Erik's shortcomings It's a mental issue more than a philosophy one. One thing has become apparent this season and it's that Eth has a very discernable ceiling that's nowhere near acceptable for the standard of a United manager.

If I'm Ratcliffe and co I wouldn't be close to extending his contract. He's essentially got 6 months left but no amount of period could deter me from thinking he's not good enough. Next season he's a window away from a potential 600M outlay and he's still not making significant progress as time progresses itself, the bar is so low this season, out of Europe infancy stages in a non-competitive group, defunct scoring record (also evident last season) and no tactical pedigree against any half decent opposition. Injuries don't really cover those issues it draws managerial competence into question.
 
RedDevil@84 said:
I am in the "not yet" camp, only because I am more interested in what INEOS does to the club structure. I think all managers are set to fail as it stands.
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I have to agree with this.
It should also be factored in all of the off field shite that ETH has had to deal with, especially Ronaldo, Sancho and Greenwood situations, and the circus around Maguire.
The Rashford situation, and a ridiculous number of injuries constantly plaguing team selection, not to mention the dressing room leaks and piss poor mentality of certain players.

ETH is being hit with the stick of "he spent so much money, his signings are shite" but why should an incoming manager have the head of Scouting and Recruitment jobs thrust upon him?
Did we seriously not have any alternative options for incoming players, so that we had to totally rely on ETH 's suggestions based on players that he already knew about?

For me, I just cannot judge ETH on this season alone, there is too much shit here for a diamond to shine.
I'd give him a year, and see if under the INEOS structure things dramatically improve, if they don't improve, then appoint someone new, but in the meantime, INEOS need to appoint quality people in the Scouting & Recruitment teams, and ship out a number of players that are rotten eggs.
Until INEOS make that happen, I think we are all just on a treadmill, and will be having the same discussions every 12-18 months.
 
What change? ETH always starts with his best 11 in mind. Always 4231 except when Bruno was suspended. I was disappointed that Bruno and Garnaco started last night, could have given these 2 a rest with the options available. No he only know 1 format, despite playing 50 games a season. Only Casemiro was smart enough to engineer his own 'rest", Bruno always play 100% if allow. Look what happened to Martinez.
 
Insanity said:
Some of the newer fans need to watch the Stick to Football episode which featured Jaap Stam. Keeping all the tactics and man management aside, Sir Alex was first and foremost a risk taker, a gambler as Keano mentioned. We would throw players in numbers in attack and create overloads trusting our central defenders and keeper to handle situations at the back if they arose due to our attacking impetus. That is the reason we scored a lot of goals and could get a lot of late goals. Besides having confidence and belief we created conditions in attack to harry the opposition defenses and force them into mistakes. Unlike now, where we play in slow motion in front of the opposition defense and then ultimately cross the ball which is easily dismissed by their central defenders.

That has been my frustration with all our permanent managers from Moyes to ETH, none of them are risk takers. They have been too afraid to lose and revert to the same football.

In short, for me, either as a manager you have it or not. ETH is not a young ingenue, he is an experienced campaigner and we have seen what he brings to the table. May be he'll have a half decent season for the rest of this one under little to no pressure, but ultimately I have seen enough to know that he doesn't possess those qualities that would make him a big title winning United manager.
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You want to throw bodies forward and trust Maguire, Evans, Varane to mop up?

Great idea.

Worst post in a while.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
Yep.

I’ve been asking this quite a bit lately with 0 responses.
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Everyone at the club deserves to be sacked and lose their job including the players and the tea lady. But not the manager. Not his fault everybody else is shit.
 
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