Ballack, Zé Roberto, Lucio, Wirtz
Is that one of these questions where you have to identify the phrase that doesn't fit to the other three?
BVB (Bottlespielverein Borussia Dortmund) watch | You love to see it | Absolute weapons
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Is that one of these questions where you have to identify the phrase that doesn't fit to the other three?
No idea tbh. But he does look classy as feck on the ball from the clips. Poor fellow is going to be judged by a lot of people purely on this game as few PL followers watch Seville.
He would have put Havertz in thereIs that one of these questions where you have to identify the phrase that doesn't fit to the other three?
He's ace in FIFA
Is that one of these questions where you have to identify the phrase that doesn't fit to the other three?
Sure. The first three HAVE moved from Leverkusen to Bayern, the fourth WILL move from Leverkusen to Bayern
Maybe Wirtz will join you, maybe he won't. But sooner or later a Leverkusen player will end up in your shirt again, I'm not naive enough to believe it'll never happen again. That's the ugly nature of the food chain. But the beautiful aspect of it is that there'll also always be an even bigger fish in the pond and Bayern will ultimately always be second fiddle to the real European elite. And I believe my ego can cope much better with losing a player to Bayern once in a while than the egos of Bayern fans can cope with Madrid, Barcelona and the likes in the long run remaining a level ahead of the club they deem the center of the universe
I mean, I've witnessed you winning the CL two times during the ~ 20 years I follow football closely. That's still 18 occasions to cheer, isn't it?
Maybe Wirtz will join you, maybe he won't. But sooner or later a Leverkusen player will end up in your shirt again, I'm not naive enough to believe it'll never happen again. That's the ugly nature of the food chain. But the beautiful aspect of it is that there'll also always be an even bigger fish in the pond and Bayern will ultimately always be second fiddle to the real European elite. And I believe my ego can cope much better with losing a player to Bayern once in a while than the egos of Bayern fans can cope with Madrid, Barcelona and the likes in the long run remaining a level ahead of the club they deem the center of the universe
I mean, I've witnessed you winning the CL two times during the ~ 20 years I follow football closely. That's still 18 occasions to cheer, isn't it?
Hmm....I dunno how old you are but I thought you already can count to 3.
Honestly, I don't see these "real" elite teams, which are at another level. From a sporting perspective the 2 you mentioned are playing rather second fiddle to Bayern these days. One is actually closer to bankruptcy than anything else. In a few years things might look different but I am pretty confident in the guys running our club.
I apologize for my role in pushing this thread off topic.
You are right. Enough of the banter. But @Zehner is really asking for it.
It's somehow strange that in a Dortmund thread there aren't any Dortmund fans around.
It actually makes my stomach turn to defend their team
It's somehow strange that in a Dortmund thread there aren't any Dortmund fans around.
It actually makes my stomach turn to defend their team
Hmm....I dunno how old you are but I thought you already can count to 3.
Honestly, I don't see these "real" elite teams, which are at another level. From a sporting perspective the 2 you mentioned are playing rather second fiddle to Bayern these days. One is actually closer to bankruptcy than anything else. In a few years things might look different but I am pretty confident in the guys running our club.
Few things are harder to kill than a brand. Madrid and Barca are going through a rough patch but they'll be back eventually. Probably just like United. Let's not forget that those two teams combined won 8 out of the last 15 CL campaigns. Those two clubs have a different kind of attraction. The Messis, Cristianos and Neymars of this world will never end up at Bayern.
And don't forget, Kovac isn't even that long ago. Football balances of power change rather quickly. You were in a similar situation, actually an even better one, after 2013 and it still took you 7 years to win your next CL.
The strangest thing is that we're in a Dortmund thread and I'm outnumbered in a banter with Bayern fans
The brand is still there. However, Barcelona will take a long time to on elite level again, sporting and financial wise.
Neymar? Who wants Neymar? I much prefer Lewandowski, Kimmich, Neuer, Müller. In the past the level of Robben and Ribbery is totally good enough. I don't see Bayern having any problems to recruit top talent. So the Messis and Ronaldos are free to join the 2 Spanish giants and ruin them financially.
Kovac was a disaster. At least the management corrected their mistake quickly despite him winning the double a few months before being fired.
We believe you
Come on, of course you'd take Neymar. Or Messi. Or CR7. You won't get them but denying it is ridiculous. They're better players than what you've got and they won't ruin your club since they generate what you pay them easily.
And I doubt we'll see players of Ribery's or Robben's quality at Munich anytime soon. You got very lucky with those two transfers. IMO even Lewandowski resides fairly behind them in terms of class.
So I believe you'll remain at your current position in the food chain. Win an occasional CL but the historic levels Barca and Madrid achieved remain out of reach for you.
We cant deny that having 2 GOATS in Messi and Ronaldo helped Barcelona and Madrid. Its also fair to say those type of players dont come every decade
The likely probability in a post Messi Ronaldo world is where a group of 7 clubs rotate it among themselves and Bayern is one of them. Since 2019 when the Messi Ronaldo decline started 2 CL competition and Bayern won 1
Based on current form The 7 clubs are Barca Madrid Bayern PSG Liverpool Juventus City with ManUtd, Chelsea Dortmund Atletico, Inter Leipzig, AC Milan etc gatecrashing once in a while
Hoping for a lot of scopophilic activity in this thread later tonight
Terzic is way in over his head, an official lame duck since this week, and Sevilla are on a good run
Terzic is way in over his head, an official lame duck since this week, and Sevilla are on a good run
I'm sorry, but I don't really see the rationale behind your analysis' of those other clubs, saying ' Leicester won a freak season - aside from that they achieved the same as Dortmund' doesn't make sense to me - the point is exactly that Leicester did win the league and thus have had more notable achievements in recent seasons that Dortmund...
I'm not saying these teams can 'teach' Dortmund anything either - just pointing out that clubs who don't have similar resources to Bayern etc still seem to have achieved more that Dortmund in recent seasons illustrating that it's not as impossible a task as some fans seem to make out.
I think the point you make in our last paragraph is something we can agree on - Dortmund have clearly messed up in the past few years. I think I just wanted this point to be clear as the impression you get from some Dortmund/Bundesliga fans on occasion is that every club (inc Dortmund) are doing the best they could have and that it just isn't feasible to challenge for the big trophies and that's why Bayern dominate so much - there is an element of truth to this but it isn't the whole case. These fans do certainly seem resigned to me.
Interesting.
The club and the fans do on occasion seem to take a moral higher ground regarding how the club is run and their financial management so it's interesting to learn that their behaviours largely came about as a result of severe mismanagement 20 years prior!
I hope the bolded comes into effect.
Excellent first half and reaction from Dortmund to going a goal down
Haaland what a gem
Haaland what a gem
Watching them makes me think the have the same problem as United do. That it they have the ability to beat any team in the World but clearly from their League form they are just horribly inconsistent and concede too many stupid goals. I think that United's best 11 all performing at their very best are a problem for any team but they only rarely show it. Are Dortmund similar in that regard?
Hoping for a lot of scopophilic activity in this thread later tonight
Terzic is way in over his head, an official lame duck since this week, and Sevilla are on a good run
I should have kept my stupid mouth shut, apologies
To my mind though: if they can't teach Dortmund anything, then what's the point of the comparison? Or at least, I'd suppose it is only relevant to bring in other clubs if it shows something Dortmund should try to achieve. If the achievement in question is not really relevant to Dortmund, then I don't see why you'd bring it up.
And the latter was indeed my point with going through those clubs: while they all had some success in the last couple of years, none of them have had sustainable success (as far as we can tell so far). Dortmund is definitely capable of one-offs - in fact, they had their own bit of that under Klopp. But I would say that one-offs often involve a lot of luck, which can't really be emulated; and that all of those are cases of clubs punching above their weight for a bit, while everybody is rather arguing that Dortmund should be able to really establish themselves in the German and European top.
So to me, the only one really relevant in that list was Spurs, as they made their way up using their own means. I probably shouldn't have dismissed them as easily as the others, their rise into the top 6 is really quite remarkable in today's financial culture of the EPL. But as they didn't win anything and might be on their way back down (to be determined once they've fired Mourinho
), even they might be a bit underwhelming compared to what people are saying Dortmund should do. But then of course the EPL has more teams competing at the very top, so that situation isn't really comparable to what Dortmund is facing in the Bundesliga.
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To my mind though: if they can't teach Dortmund anything, then what's the point of the comparison? Or at least, I'd suppose it is only relevant to bring in other clubs if it shows something Dortmund should try to achieve. If the achievement in question is not really relevant to Dortmund, then I don't see why you'd bring it up.
And the latter was indeed my point with going through those clubs: while they all had some success in the last couple of years, none of them have had sustainable success (as far as we can tell so far). Dortmund is definitely capable of one-offs - in fact, they had their own bit of that under Klopp. But I would say that one-offs often involve a lot of luck, which can't really be emulated; and that all of those are cases of clubs punching above their weight for a bit, while everybody is rather arguing that Dortmund should be able to really establish themselves in the German and European top.
So to me, the only one really relevant in that list was Spurs, as they made their way up using their own means. I probably shouldn't have dismissed them as easily as the others, their rise into the top 6 is really quite remarkable in today's financial culture of the EPL. But as they didn't win anything and might be on their way back down (to be determined once they've fired Mourinho
To be fair, I never claimed to know the answers and was genuinely asking the question rather than making a point.
To my untrained eye, I would think that though Dortmund are certainly handicapped against teams such as Bayern, City etc from a financial point of view, but amongst teams such as Atletico, Leicester etc it a more level playing field and I would expect them to manage similar achievements - so the question was, is this relative lack of notable achievements in recent seasons (I don't really count Klopp's time at Dortmund as recent) anything to do with the way they operate, in particular how careful they are with their money ? In general, the answer seems to be that there are numerous more factors at play but it has been admitted by a few that Dortmund are less risky than some of their counterparts financially, so there may or may not be something to be learned there.
It's a fair point that there probably is a thin line between the clubs I mentioned and what they have achieved in comparison to Dortmund by the way, I understand that luck obviously plays a part in such things too so maybe I am being unfair, but to me it did seem like Dortmund fans haven't had much to shout about since Klopp so am genuinely quite surprised when I hear them so vehemently defend the board and the financial practices etc. I understand it a bit more now. Maybe I'm just too used to some of the spoilt fanbases in England - those constantly clamouring for constant improvements to their team or even those with delusions of grandeur!
If Sancho is no longer a Utd target then I would love to see Dortmund keep all of him, Haaland (unless Utd sign him of course), Bellingham and and add some more ready made quality and see what they can muster next season, there's the makings of a great team there and an exciting one at that too (not too dissimilar from how I feel about Utd).
Yeah, all fair points; I guess I was just trying to argue that for one-off success often a couple of things almost randomly come together, and for every club that has that happen to them, there are loads of clubs that don't. For Dortmund in particular, apart from being careful with spending, I think the main thing to point to is that they've had non-great managers since Tuchel left (who did still win them a cup, if I'm not mistaken), cause as you say, the potential is there in terms of their squad. If that potential would be fulfilled or more by a good coach and Dortmund would start seriously competing for top honours again, I could see them easily getting back into a virtuous circle, where good players want to stay to win things, causing more good players to be interested in joining, etc.
Think they are stronger than us in terms of having a creative winger and one of the most clinical strikers in the world too
Again I'm perfectly happy how Bayern is run. Also the level of players Bayern attracts. Better having a very good team playing with a clear strategy and the right mentality than having to rely on genius moments of some fancy super stars.
The latter will always play in Spain, because they aren't as appreciated in Germany or England.
Regarding your Lewandowski Robben/Ribbery comparison. I prefer Lewandowski 10x over Robben or Ribbery, not because he is more talented or the better footballer but because he is never injured and always available.
The historic levels of Barcelona? Since when is 5 more than 6? You really need to learn counting my friend.
Bayern is nowhere near Barca's level around 2010.
The feck does that have to do with anything? Is Milan still better than Bayern too?
Real won 3 CLs on the trot (and 4 in the 50s) and Barca 2009-2011 is arguably the greatest club side in history. There was nothing wrong with the initial statement, the fact that you have one more CL in your entire history doesn't change anything about that.
How was Sancho yesterday?
He has always been a bit quiet in the CL in my eye and it's why I dont want to pay too much for him.
He has always been a bit quiet in the CL in my eye and it's why I dont want to pay too much for him.
He was magnificent yesterday.
Guardiola's Barcelona is regularly referred to as the best team in history. It was a highly efficient machine fueled by players like Iniesta, Xavi and Messi who are among the best if not the best players in their respective positions. You never came close to such quality and you most likely never will withouth attracting that magnitude of players.
If you're fine with that, good on you. At the moment, this might be the case but I'll doubt you'll think that way once the dust has settled and Madrid and Barca found their way back to the top. To them you're essentially what Dortmund is to you and I can't imagine that is compatible with the egos in your club and fan scene
Where did I ever said this? Also the Barcelona if the 70's was never on the level of the Bayern side that won 3 CL. History isn't only the last 10 it 20 years. So I don't get your point.
@Zehner claimed Bayern are second fiddle to Barcelona and Real. He brought the history of both clubs up. Bayern has won more national and European titles. I just don't see Barcelona being levels above Bayern. Especially, after Barcelona are in a very difficult situation, financially and sporting wise.
Whether they will rise again or follow the path of AC Milan only the future will tell.
I don't see them as a top 5 team anymore. But of course you are entitled to have a different opinion.
Guardiola's Barca was surely the best team of that generation. So was Bayern in the early 70's, Liverpool in the late 70's and early 80's or Milan in the late 80's and 90's.Guardiola's Barcelona is regularly referred to as the best team in history. It was a highly efficient machine fueled by players like Iniesta, Xavi and Messi who are among the best if not the best players in their respective positions. You never came close to such quality and you most likely never will withouth attracting that magnitude of players.
If you're fine with that, good on you. At the moment, this might be the case but I'll doubt you'll think that way once the dust has settled and Madrid and Barca found their way back to the top. To them you're essentially what Dortmund is to you and I can't imagine that is compatible with the egos in your club and fan scene
All the players you mentioned where homegrown players. None was bought with big money. So this doesn't prove your point. Bayern had such golden generation in 70's, Man Utd in the class of 92. This happens every 30 years, if you are lucky. At lot of Barcelona's current problems resolut from overpaying in transfer market and too high wages. If they where that attractive why did they had to do this?
I don't see any easy way back for Barcelona. Soon Messi and Piqué, the last remaining pillars of the great Barca team, will be gone or retire. The remaining lot of players, neither have the class but mentality to bring Barcelona back to the top. There is a massive rebuilding job necessary and the club doesn't have money to invest another hundred of millions USD.
No I'm not worried about Barcelona for the foreseeable future. Man City, Chelsea or PSG are much more likely to be the challengers.
But again this thread is about Dortmund. So let's close this topic or discuss it in another, more suitable thread
Can any Dortmund fans give an update on Jamie Bynoe-Gittens? I heard he scored a hat trick for Dortmund u19s against a 4th division side, is that a 4th division professional side? Has age group football been completely shutdown for months in Germany before this game too?
They have such an inferiority complex.
He's not wrong though, my first impression was that it was a foul.
No way VAR would've reversed it though, alot of play has gone on after the incident.
Bayern won from being 2-0 down?
This is a win for German football and all the German fans here
This is a win for German football and all the German fans here
I thought it was a foul but BVB had 2,3 opportunities after that incident to do something with the ball but they just lumped it back to Bayern.
Can somebody explain to me how Dortmund are in 6th place 16 points off top with that squad??
Poor defence which good attacking players can’t compensate for
S'pose. United Mk II.