BVB (Bottlespielverein Borussia Dortmund) watch | You love to see it | Absolute weapons

[romufc]

Bayern hasn't bought a Dortmund player in 5 years. There's not really a food 'chain' anymore. Dortmund can only pick up what the top clubs don't want from league competitors (Brandt, Castro, Toprak, Schulz, Wolf, Delaney, Hazard, etc.) and Bayern only signs cheap domestically (Goretzka, Süle), usually shortly before or after the contract runs out. So every club basically sells their top talents outside the league if they can get a huge fee: Dembele, Havertz, Jovic, de Bruyne, Werner, Keita, etc.

What's more of a thing nowadays is signing academy players from other clubs. Kimmich is a prominent example, Wirtz another one. But there were many, many more who failed. The early identification of world class talent is where the competition on the transfermarket currently takes place in Germany.

Bayern have bought very well, recently though, it seems clubs are not getting bullied by Bayern as much as they used to. Players themselves and clubs are more inclined to selling talents abroad like you say. I am sure Havertz, Werner if they stayed in Germany would have ended up at Bayern.

We will see where Upamecano ends up though.

 

[Zehner]

Bayern have bought very well, recently though, it seems clubs are not getting bullied by Bayern as much as they used to. Players themselves and clubs are more inclined to selling talents abroad like you say. I am sure Havertz, Werner if they stayed in Germany would have ended up at Bayern.

We will see where Upamecano ends up though.

Not sure about Werner (they hesitated when they had the chance) but if Havertz had been willing to let his contract run out then yes, Bayern definitely would've lowballed us.

Thing is, Bundesliga clubs know about that strategy by now. Völler (our DoF) even said during a fan event last year that he'll avoid selling Havertz to Bayern if possible. Luckily German players are more open to moves in other leagues nowadays. Trust me, we all hated to see players that our clubs developed play in their colors.

However, once in a while they succeed in turning a players head. Upamecano might become the next one, yes. But I'm okay with that, as long as they miss out on the really big talents like Sancho and Havertz.

 

[Synco]

Not sure about Werner (they hesitated when they had the chance) but if Havertz had been willing to let his contract run out then yes, Bayern definitely would've lowballed us.

Thing is, Bundesliga clubs know about that strategy by now. Völler (our DoF) even said during a fan event last year that he'll avoid selling Havertz to Bayern if possible. Luckily German players are more open to moves in other leagues nowadays. Trust me, we all hated to see players that our clubs developed play in their colors.

However, once in a while they succeed in turning a players head. Upamecano might become the next one, yes. But I'm okay with that, as long as they miss out on the really big talents like Sancho and Havertz.

Do you remember the Vidal saga? That was fun

 

[Zehner]

Do you remember the Vidal saga? That was fun

Oh yes, absolutely loved how that turned out.

 

[romufc]

Not sure about Werner (they hesitated when they had the chance) but if Havertz had been willing to let his contract run out then yes, Bayern definitely would've lowballed us.

Thing is, Bundesliga clubs know about that strategy by now. Völler (our DoF) even said during a fan event last year that he'll avoid selling Havertz to Bayern if possible. Luckily German players are more open to moves in other leagues nowadays. Trust me, we all hated to see players that our clubs developed play in their colors.

However, once in a while they succeed in turning a players head. Upamecano might become the next one, yes. But I'm okay with that, as long as they miss out on the really big talents like Sancho and Havertz.

They are very good at turning a players head. Look at Sane, they waited extra year knowing he will join. Unfortunately, it did not work with Havertz and Werner because they thought it is a bit snakey to their clubs too.

I think what Leipzig do is fair, setting a fair buy out clause then its up to the player what they want to do.

What have you made of Havertz then this season?

 

[Synco]

Oh yes, absolutely loved how that turned out.

I'm sure you did, as a Leverkusen fan. I would have liked to see Vidal at Bayern, but I enjoyed the whole soap opera side to it.

 

[Zehner]

They are very good at turning a players head. Look at Sane, they waited extra year knowing he will join. Unfortunately, it did not work with Havertz and Werner because they thought it is a bit snakey to their clubs too.

I think what Leipzig do is fair, setting a fair buy out clause then its up to the player what they want to do.

What have you made of Havertz then this season?

I tried to keep up with his performances in the beginning but currently it's just a shit tonne of football being played so I haven't seen him play in months to be honest.

Think he's facing multiple issues. His game always lacked a bit intensity, even for us, but he got away with it because he's the best player in the team. He's missing that protection now that he plays with the big boys. At the beginning he definitely showed nerves. However, I also think that he's used to playing in a very organized team, especially positionally, and I have the feeling Lampard didn't pay that much importance to the system. He should do much better under Tuchel but that's true for most of Chelsea's players. Havertz got all the potential but it won't be a walk in the park. He chose a league that's not really fitting his playing style and he has to deliver now.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Dortmund just came out of a near-bankruptcy, they may have had good reasons not to give in to Lewandowski's demands.

I don't see why they should then immediately sell him. He's a great striker; why get rid while you can still get 2.5 years out of him? Where's the ambition or benefit in that? Wasn't the whole point here that they shouldn't be a selling club? Also, with so much time left, they may have thought they'd have a chance to discuss this again later.

It's a very hindsight discussion - and even then, getting rid of one of your best players when he doesn't want to renew with a lot of contract time left doesn't seem very wise.

The bankruptcy was in 2005 I believe. In 2011, they were considered in top 20 richest club. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/779886-the-top-20-richest-clubs-in-world-football

I’m sure you already read my quote about Sancho, Aubameyang & Dembele as I have said it before, I never have any problem of selling players here. Otherwise, you are going to call us feeding club for selling Ronaldo. The issue isn’t about selling but feeding them to Bayern. Never mind the idea of selling Ronaldo to Liverpool for peanut or free, we didn’t even let Heinze to get his move to Liverpool.

I made a point which what started the argument that Dortmund had potential to actually win more trophies for more years especially when they had Lewandowski, Gotze, Hummels. But instead, they wasted it and feeding those players to Bayern cheaply.

And then you and that other Bayern fans poster asked what could Dortmund actually have done when they don’t have financial power. I gave my answer which in my opinion valid answer either you give Lewandowski new contract or you sell him when he only had 2 years left in his contract to get good amount of money which I gave example of what happened when the club set high price on Havertz, Bayern wasn’t willing to spend such thing. And there is no evidence that Lewandowski has set his mind to join Bayern when he was on 2.5 years in his contract, if anything the agent confirmed what happened.

 

[Zehner]

I'm sure you did, as a Leverkusen fan. I would have liked to see Vidal at Bayern, but I enjoyed the whole soap opera side to it.

Well, you got your way eventually At that point in time I was happy that Heynckes left. Never liked him and the football was boring. So when he pulled off that move I thought it was very cnutish and I held a huge, huge grudge against Bayern anyway. After all the Lucio, Ze Roberto and Ballack signings weren't that long ago back then. The Vidal saga was probably the pinnacle of my hatred towards Bayern, simply because they displayed such incredible arrogance during that press conference in which they said 'Vidal comes this season at our price our next season for free'. And our ex coach who said he didn't want to extend because he'll end his career for good sat right next to Hoeneß, shamelessly turning the head of one of our very own players! He probably even prepared all that while he was still paid by us to coach Vidal. Honestly, I still think that's the meanest backstabbing a coach has ever done to his former club in the Bundesliga.

And then Vidal went to Juventus for more money than Bayern was willing to pay, backstabbing Heynckes himself and sending Hoeneß in meltdown, questioning his character Still love Turin for that. The biggest middle finger you could show that club.

Edit: wait, I just realized, you're a Bayern fan? Thought you support Dortmund

 

[Synco]

Well, you got your way eventually

Minor point, but I'm not a Bayern fan (or anyone's for that matter). I just like football.

 

[Bebestation]

At the end you only have a handful clubs, which aren't feeder clubs according to your definition.
These are Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich and Manchester United. Then add the sugar daddy or oil state financed clubs like Manchester City, Chelsea and Paris St Germain. All other clubs will have to sell when one or more of these 7 clubs is after one of their players. Be it Arsenal, Tottenham Hotspurs or Leicester City.
And even the biggest clubs can't keep their players sometimes, like Bayern Munich who will have to let Alaba go on free to Real Madrid. Is Bayern therefore now also a feeder club?
Selling players to Bayern isn't killing the competitiveness of the Bundesliga. Lewandowski in 2014 was the last big transfer of Bayern within the Bundeslig.

The reason is rather the TV money rich EPL clubs which are raiding the Bundesliga for years. Bigger fish eats smaller fish.
Just today I read that Barcelona has most likely over 1 billion Euro of debt. They wouldn't get a license in the Bundesliga, they most likely would get demoted to the amateur league with this amount of debt. Real is also heavily indebted but can pay Alaba 12 Million Euro net. I don't know if the Spanish clubs are still having the advantage to that gross salaries equal net wages.
At the end the old saying money doesn't score goals is bullshit. If invested well it definitely does.

On a side note. There is probably a difference between British and German supporters. If a star is sold, many German fans still prefer he will sold within the Bundesliga than to a foreign league. They rather the talent still playing in the Bundesliga.
I think also most German fans will support German teams in the Bundesliga and Euro League. Which isn't the case with many British supporters.

I find this very interesting. I'm from Britain and I'm okay for some cheeky, fun & entertainment based rivalry but it does go over the top to the point that you'd question if it was a safe place to go when people were drinking before a match back in the day. Even now it can lead to unnecessary fights over a sport.

I love the league I spend watching and all the players are part of an entertaining league I pay attention to. Unless we are in direct competition I do have this preference that the players I spend most of my time watching do well over teams that I literally dont ever see. For example, whilst Arsenal are a rival of us, I'm quite happy seeing Smith Rowe and Saka develop; hoping one day they will help the England national team be where it needs to be.

 

[kaiser1]

Bayern have bought very well, recently though, it seems clubs are not getting bullied by Bayern as much as they used to. Players themselves and clubs are more inclined to selling talents abroad like you say. I am sure Havertz, Werner if they stayed in Germany would have ended up at Bayern.

We will see where Upamecano ends up though.

Bayern was not interested in Werner cos they passed on him a season earlier before he signed an extension

Bayern do not have an immediate need for Harvetz and it was a nice to have right now. Ideally he would be needed when Muller leaves

Leverkusen have not been producing top players recently at least the level that would have interested Bayern until Harvetz cos if Dortmund was able to buy from Leverkusen, what stops Bayern?

Regarding Vidal, Bayern wanted him and offered 15m in a single payment, Leverkusen sold to Juventus for similar amounts in multiple installment. A few seasons later, Bayern paid Juventus 30m and got the same Vidal. Has that made Leverkusen less of a feeder club and improved their standing compared to Dortmund?

In business you have to accept your financial reality and move on
Bayern is losing Alaba because we cannot pay what he wants, just like Kroos

Just adopting a "Simply not Bayern " in the market opens you to lowball offers.
You are losing a player, will you rather get more money even if from Bayern or just sell him anywhere for less

 

[Zehner]

I find this very interesting. I'm from Britain and I'm okay for some cheeky, fun & entertainment based rivalry but it does go over the top to the point that you'd question if it was a safe place to go when people were drinking before a match back in the day. Even now it can lead to unnecessary fights over a sport.

I love the league I spend watching and all the players are part of an entertaining league I pay attention to. Unless we are in direct competition I do have this preference that the players I spend most of my time watching do well over teams that I literally dont ever see. For example, whilst Arsenal are a rival of us, I'm quite happy seeing Smith Rowe and Saka develop; hoping one day they will help the England national team be where it needs to be.

The part you bolded isn't really true for everyone. Fans of the German top 5 definitely rather see a player move abroad than to a direct competitor or Bayern. I don't want players like Sancho or Havertz to stay in the league for example, though I enjoy if they develop well.

As for the rivalry part, the German posters in here are very civilized. You don't want to get caught between Scbalke and Dortmund or Gladbach and Köln fans during matchday, trust me. It's not as bad as the hooligan scene in England used to be but this can still get very ugly. Not too long ago Gladbach ultras threw bricks at a bus of Cologne fans (including kids) on a highway, for example, and forced them into leaving the street, essentialy holding them hostage for some time afterwards. Schalke - Dortmund is even more extreme. Some of those guys are totally nuts.

 

[Zehner]

Bayern was not interested in Werner cos they passed on him a season earlier before he signed an extension

Bayern do not have an immediate need for Harvetz and it was a nice to have right now. Ideally he would be needed when Muller leaves

Leverkusen have not been producing top players recently at least the level that would have interested Bayern until Harvetz cos if Dortmund was able to buy from Leverkusen, what stops Bayern?

Regarding Vidal, Bayern wanted him and offered 15m in a single payment, Leverkusen sold to Juventus for similar amounts in multiple installment. A few seasons later, Bayern paid Juventus 30m and got the same Vidal. Has that made Leverkusen less of a feeder club and improved their standing compared to Dortmund?

In business you have to accept your financial reality and move on
Bayern is losing Alaba because we cannot pay what he wants, just like Kroos

As far as I know, you offered 10.5m and Juventus offered 14.5m in total.

 

[kaiser1]

As far as I know, you offered 10.5m and Juventus offered 14.5m in total.

I could be wrong but this was what I saw

https://www.goal.com/en/news/11/tra...-juventus-sign-bayer-leverkusens-arturo-vidal

 

[Bebestation]

The part you bolded isn't really true for everyone. Fans of the German top 5 definitely rather see a player move abroad than to a direct competitor or Bayern. I don't want players like Sancho or Havertz to stay in the league for example, though I enjoy if they develop well.

As for the rivalry part, the German posters in here are very civilized. You don't want to get caught between Scbalke and Dortmund or Gladbach and Köln fans during matchday, trust me. It's not as bad as the hooligan scene in England used to be but this can still get very ugly. Not too long ago Gladbach ultras threw bricks at a bus of Cologne fans (including kids) on a highway, for example, and forced them into leaving the street, essentialy holding them hostage for some time afterwards. Schalke - Dortmund is even more extreme. Some of those guys are totally nuts.

Yeah I'm not particularly sure about the players staying within the league because ultimately players will come and go from every league - it sounds a bit like Bayern being able to target certain players at their will and thinking that everyone is always happy with it.

And yeah with the rivalry aspect, its definitely still there even in the UK, you can barely watch a match without some fight that has gotten worse due the the team they support.

 

[Zehner]

I could be wrong but this was what I saw

https://www.goal.com/en/news/11/tra...-juventus-sign-bayer-leverkusens-arturo-vidal

It's quite some time now but I remember how people analyzed the balance sheet of Juventus back then and derived thatbthe fee was ultimately around 14.5m. I obviously don't know what Bayern offered but it was always reported to be around 10.5m. Can't recall the exact phrases Völler used either but the reports all suggested that Bayern tried to lowball us and Juventus finally made a higher bid. As far as I know, Bayern put too much trust into Vidal keeping his word who instead took the easy way out once Juve made an offer Leverkusen deemed acceptable.

 

[OutlawGER]

I made a point which what started the argument that Dortmund had potential to actually win more trophies for more years especially when they had Lewandowski, Gotze, Hummels. But instead, they wasted it and feeding those players to Bayern cheaply.

But how is it feeding if they had no choice?

Götze was only willing to renew his contract with a release clause. Bayern used that clause. Dortmund had no choice.
After that they decided, they will no longer allow release clauses. The only and first exception ever since they made was Haaland. And for this guy, it was worth it. There was no other possibility to sign him.

Lewandowski ran his contract out. He was not willing to renew. It was either Bayern or Real Madrid for him. Dortmund had no choice.

Hummels was different. He was on his last year. Bayern offered good money and some players. I think Dortmund got Götze and Rode from Bayern in exchange. At the time, it seemed a fair deal for both sides.


Dortmund feeded more to the EPL (Kagawa, Mkhitaryan, Aubameyang, Gündogan, etc.) than to Bayern. The only player they made a deal with Bayern was Hummels.

 

[kaiser1]

Yeah I'm not particularly sure about the players staying within the league because ultimately players will come and go from every league - it sounds a bit like Bayern being able to target certain players at their will and thinking that everyone is always happy with it.

Bayern targets young German players or bundesliga players since they can't really compete with the moneybags in Europe, try to lock them early before they become global stars and give them a competitive salary

If you want to thrive in the German national team, Bayern holds an advantage as they will give the exposure and protection

Gotze was from Munich, supposed next German star, opportunity to play under Pep, double his salary and a 45m release clause which was generous at that time cos I can recall many epl buys more than that

Dortmund stood no chance

 

[Blackwidow]

Dortmund's and their fans problem is that they only look for Bayern and not what they do wrong...

Bayern got the last permanent player (Hummels and Götze went back to Dortmund) of Dortmund in 2014 - it is 2021...
And it is the only player that really is worth mentioning. If you look at Bayern's squad and who plays there you will only find Neuer and Lewy as players that went as top players from other German clubs to Bayern - and even the two made a big step in development since they arrived.

 

[Cheimoon]

The bankruptcy was in 2005 I believe. In 2011, they were considered in top 20 richest club. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/779886-the-top-20-richest-clubs-in-world-football

I’m sure you already read my quote about Sancho, Aubameyang & Dembele as I have said it before, I never have any problem of selling players here. Otherwise, you are going to call us feeding club for selling Ronaldo. The issue isn’t about selling but feeding them to Bayern. Never mind the idea of selling Ronaldo to Liverpool for peanut or free, we didn’t even let Heinze to get his move to Liverpool.

I made a point which what started the argument that Dortmund had potential to actually win more trophies for more years especially when they had Lewandowski, Gotze, Hummels. But instead, they wasted it and feeding those players to Bayern cheaply.

And then you and that other Bayern fans poster asked what could Dortmund actually have done when they don’t have financial power. I gave my answer which in my opinion valid answer either you give Lewandowski new contract or you sell him when he only had 2 years left in his contract to get good amount of money which I gave example of what happened when the club set high price on Havertz, Bayern wasn’t willing to spend such thing. And there is no evidence that Lewandowski has set his mind to join Bayern when he was on 2.5 years in his contract, if anything the agent confirmed what happened.

I still think it'd be insane to sell one of your best players well before his contract runs out just because he doesn't want to extend his contract. Should United do that with Bruno this summer, if they offer him an extension in March and his salary request is unacceptably high? (No idea what's left on his contract.)

Also, you keep hammering on three examples from years ago that no-one seems to agree with you on. How does that typify Dortmund?

(And I'm not a fan of any club, in case that's what you meant by 'other Bayerns fans'. If anything, I would welcome more competitiveness in the Bundesliga.)

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I still think it'd be insane to sell one of your best players well before his contract runs out just because he doesn't want to extend his contract. Should United do that with Bruno this summer, if they offer him an extension in March and his salary request is unacceptably high? (No idea what's left on his contract.)

I don’t think you can and should compare Dortmund’s situation with ours as well as other clubs that have the money and suitable situation to take such risk. This why I posted this (below quote) to kaiser1 regarding to his question about why clubs like Bayern, Barcelona, PSG did not sell Alaba, Messi, Mbappe before their last year.

Why are you comparing this? Barcelona, Bayern & PSG have the money and suitable situation to take such risk, and that’s why they were willing to pay the price for it especially knowing the likes of Messi is already on his 30is, Alaba is near to his 30is while PSG has arab money.

Dortmund doesn’t have the money and suitable situation to take such risk. That’s why they shouldn’t take the risk to leave player especially the non ageing ones on the final year in their contract.

Rather than dragging this too long, let me ask you some questions.

When Leverkusen set massive price on Havertz, did Bayern buy him? Was it Ballack or Lucio the last time they sold their player to Bayern? Yeah that was long time ago. Don’t think Leverkusen needs arab money or run like man united to change the structure to not getting bullied by Bayern anymore.

Very contrast on how Dortmund handled their situation with Lewandowski, Gotze & Hummels.

Also, you keep hammering on three examples from years ago that no-one seems to agree with you on. How does that typify Dortmund?

What three examples? Are you referring to Lewandowski, Gotze, Hummels?

Dortmund won Bundesliga back to back in 2010-2011 & 2011-2012 with those players, does it not give you sign of potential what they are capable of if they manage to keep them or not just feeding them easily/cheaply to Bayern but instead sell them with good price (to use for replacement) to other clubs before the final year of the contract?

(And I'm not a fan of any club, in case that's what you meant by 'other Bayerns fans'. If anything, I would welcome more competitiveness in the Bundesliga.)

What I meant by ‘’that other Bayern fans’’ is kaiser1 because the guy is Bayern fans and I had the discussion with him about it.

 

[Hansi Fick]

If someone repeatedly refuses to understand the simple fact that once a player's contract at a club is run out, he is no longer that club's player, it becomes very hard to see any sense in reasoning with them.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

But how is it feeding if they had no choice?

Götze was only willing to renew his contract with a release clause. Bayern used that clause. Dortmund had no choice.
After that they decided, they will no longer allow release clauses. The only and first exception ever since they made was Haaland. And for this guy, it was worth it. There was no other possibility to sign him.

Lewandowski ran his contract out. He was not willing to renew. It was either Bayern or Real Madrid for him. Dortmund had no choice.

Hummels was different. He was on his last year. Bayern offered good money and some players. I think Dortmund got Götze and Rode from Bayern in exchange. At the time, it seemed a fair deal for both sides.


Dortmund feeded more to the EPL (Kagawa, Mkhitaryan, Aubameyang, Gündogan, etc.) than to Bayern. The only player they made a deal with Bayern was Hummels.

Was the only choice to leave it in their final year contract? Leverkusen didn’t take a risk to wait until Havertz reaches to his final year contract. The point is how Leverkusen handled the situation that led them having the power to set very high price on havertz. No cheap release clause like Götze to invite Bayern stealing their players for easily and cheaply. Not leaving Havertz to his final year of his contract so they don’t need to sell cheap to Bayern like Hummels was. And of course no free signing top player like Lewandowski.

Unless you are telling me Lewandowski already set his mind to go to Bayern when he still had 2-3 years in his contract. But that’s not the case isn’t it. Here the quote from his agent:

After 18 months of that deal (4 years deal), Dortmund realised they had more than a bargain on their hands and tried to tie him to longer terms as goal followed goal. "We are disappointed with the offer. I've said this to the president," his agent Cesary Kucharski told Revier Sport at the time. "A player of this class should be among the highest-paid footballers at Dortmund." There was a willingness, initially, to negotiate, to stay. Dortmund missed their chance.

https://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/392...und-blunders-leave-lewandowski-with-no-choice

Selling players but get good amount of money as long as the club use it for the sake of the team to win trophies or keeping them for same purpose as well especially for long term, whichever they decide to do is fine, in fact that's why I mentioned the idea of getting rid Dembele & Aubameyang are fine. But to let your best players like Lewandowski, Gotze and Hummels for example go to Bayern is the problem, that’s like feeding them to win Bundesliga!

 

[kaiser1]

Why are you comparing this? Barcelona, Bayern & PSG have the money and suitable situation to take such risk, and that’s why they were willing to pay the price for it especially knowing the likes of Messi is already on his 30is, Alaba is near to his 30is while PSG has arab money.

Dortmund doesn’t have the money and suitable situation to take such risk. That’s why they shouldn’t take the risk to leave player especially the non ageing ones on the final year in their contract.

Rather than dragging this too long, let me ask you some questions.

When Leverkusen set massive price on Havertz, did Bayern buy him? Was it Ballack or Lucio the last time they sold their player to Bayern? Yeah that was long time ago. Don’t think Leverkusen needs arab money or run like man united to change the structure to not getting bullied by Bayern anymore.

Very contrast on how Dortmund handled their situation with Lewandowski, Gotze & Hummels.

Lewandowski joined Dortmund in June 2010 on a 4yr contract, on a low salary given his profile. Struggled initially but gradually improved. By December 2011, 18months into the deal and 2.5yrs to end Dortmund approached him for a deal, Around the same time, Bayern approached him(covertly). Dortmund offered him an improved deal but Bayern was reportedly offering him double what BvB offered. 2012/13 season started, he had 2yrs left and his performances improved massively it was obvious to Dortmund that they cannot afford what he wanted and cannot keep him
They shopped him around. The only clubs in the picture at that time who were offering him the best deals acceptable to Lewy were Bayern and Madrid. Madrid at that time had Higuain who was likely on his way out and Benzema. Basically having Lewy to be a Benzema sub. Bayern had Mandzukic and told Lewy that he was coming to take over the starting shirt. Lewy was only fixated on Bayern (Possibly Bayern had paid him some money under the table to wait out)
Dortmund agreed to sell him to Bayern according to what he wanted after the 2012/13 season as long as he kept delivering.
Lewy delivered, at end of 2012/13 season Bayern triggered Gotzes clause and still wanted Lewy for 25-30M on his last year, Dortmund didn't want to both players at once and refused Lewy transfer.
1yr later he walked for free

At what point could Dortmund have done anything aside paying him what Bayern was offering which was obviously too much for their budget?

Re: Harvetz, Bayern did not want him badly enough as they didnt have an opening in the team immediately for him. Not a slight on Leverkusen, but how many Leverkusen players since Ballack and Lucio were Bayern quality? How has Leverkusen performance been in Europe and the league since Ballack and Lucio that would make them close to Bayern quality?. It's like asking how many players Bayern have gotten from Werder Bremen or Hamburg since 2004 as a sign they are not getting bullied anymore.

In this business your financial power is the major determinant, If you don't have the resources you will get bullied, even Bayern got bullied by Madrid because they didn't want to make Kroos and Alaba their top earners

 

[kaiser1]

Was the only choice to leave it in their final year contract? Leverkusen didn’t take a risk to wait until Havertz reaches to his final year contract. The point is how Leverkusen handled the situation that led them having the power to set very high price on havertz. No cheap release clause like Götze to invite Bayern stealing their players for easily and cheaply. Not leaving Havertz to his final year of his contract so they don’t need to sell cheap to Bayern like Hummels was. And of course no free signing top player like Lewandowski.

Unless you are telling me Lewandowski already set his mind to go to Bayern when he still had 2-3 years in his contract. But that’s not the case isn’t it. Here the quote from his agent:

https://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/392...und-blunders-leave-lewandowski-with-no-choice

Selling players but get good amount of money as long as the club use it for the sake of the team to win trophies or keeping them for same purpose as well especially for long term, whichever they decide to do is fine, in fact that's why I mentioned the idea of getting rid Dembele & Aubameyang are fine. But to let your best players like Lewandowski, Gotze and Hummels for example go to Bayern is the problem, that’s like feeding them to win Bundesliga!

How was a release clause of 45M cheap in 2011/2012 when he signed the contract? What was the EPL highest buy at that time? How many players in the EPL got signed for over 45M around 2011?

Lewandoski suitors were Madrid and Bayern, Lewy chose Bayern or nothing. Aside matching Lewys wages and with Hummels how much is fair for a defender on the last year of his contract in 2016?

After 18 months of that deal (4 years deal), Dortmund realised they had more than a bargain on their hands and tried to tie him to longer terms as goal followed goal. "We are disappointed with the offer. I've said this to the president," his agent Cesary Kucharski told Revier Sport at the time. "A player of this class should be among the highest-paid footballers at Dortmund." There was a willingness, initially, to negotiate, to stay. Dortmund missed their chance.

Read the above from what you quoted. After 18months(1.5yrs) leaving 2.5yrs. Dortmund made moves to extend. By then Bayern had offered him something which was a far cry from what Dortmund could afford. Similar to how Bayern approached Alaba but its obvious someone had already promised him higher a figure at par with Lewandoski

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Lewandowski joined Dortmund in June 2010 on a 4yr contract, on a low salary given his profile. Struggled initially but gradually improved. By December 2011, 18months into the deal and 2.5yrs to end Dortmund approached him for a deal, Around the same time, Bayern approached him(covertly). Dortmund offered him an improved deal but Bayern was reportedly offering him double what BvB offered. 2012/13 season started, he had 2yrs left and his performances improved massively it was obvious to Dortmund that they cannot afford what he wanted and cannot keep him
They shopped him around. The only clubs in the picture at that time who were offering him the best deals acceptable to Lewy were Bayern and Madrid. Madrid at that time had Higuain who was likely on his way out and Benzema. Basically having Lewy to be a Benzema sub. Bayern had Mandzukic and told Lewy that he was coming to take over the starting shirt. Lewy was only fixated on Bayern (Possibly Bayern had paid him some money under the table to wait out)
Dortmund agreed to sell him to Bayern according to what he wanted after the 2012/13 season as long as he kept delivering.
Lewy delivered, at end of 2012/13 season Bayern triggered Gotzes clause and still wanted Lewy for 25-30M on his last year, Dortmund didn't want to both players at once and refused Lewy transfer.
1yr later he walked for free

At what point could Dortmund have done anything aside paying him what Bayern was offering which was obviously too much for their budget?

Re: Harvetz, Bayern did not want him badly enough as they didnt have an opening in the team immediately for him. Not a slight on Leverkusen, but how many Leverkusen players since Ballack and Lucio were Bayern quality? How has Leverkusen performance been in Europe and the league since Ballack and Lucio that would make them close to Bayern quality?. It's like asking how many players Bayern have gotten from Werder Bremen or Hamburg since 2004 as a sign they are not getting bullied anymore.

In this business your financial power is the major determinant, If you don't have the resources you will get bullied, even Bayern got bullied by Madrid because they didn't want to make Kroos and Alaba their top earners

In 2011, Dortmund was the top 20 richest club in the world https://bleacherreport.com/articles/779886-the-top-20-richest-clubs-in-world-football. How is being top 20 richest club having issue with financial power that they can’t afford to pay 8m euro per year for his salary? Isn’t it obvious, the lack of ambition and would rather be Bayern feeding club was the main reason?

So the best deal is Dortmund to let go their top striker for free to Bayern the league title contender rather than selling him to other clubs despite of them having less than what Real Madrid could offer? That’s the most silly deal I can ever imagine, you would rather freely feed your top striker to Bayern so they can be dominant in Europe and the league itself.

Since when Bayern ever spend big on Bundesliga players, they have been smart enough to take the advantages of cheap top talent Bundesliga. They actually wanted havertz and Upamecano. Bayern knows they can always take a chance to wait next following season when Havertz would have 1 year left in his contract while Upamecano with so much cheaper release clause. I use the Havertz as an example that you don’t need to wait until his final year before it gets so complicated and sell the player to outside Bayern.

Real Madrid isn’t Bundesliga team though. Not sure if selling players to other teams outside is the argument here.

 

[youmeletsfly]

In 2011, Dortmund was the top 20 richest club in the world https://bleacherreport.com/articles/779886-the-top-20-richest-clubs-in-world-football. How is being top 20 richest club having issue with financial power that they can’t afford to pay 8m euro per year for his salary? Isn’t it obvious, the lack of ambition and would rather be Bayern feeding club was the main reason?

So the best deal is Dortmund to let go their top striker for free to Bayern the league title contender rather than selling him to other clubs despite of them having less than what Real Madrid could offer? That’s the most silly deal I can ever imagine, you would rather freely feed your top striker to Bayern so they can be dominant in Europe and the league itself.

Since when Bayern ever spend big on Bundesliga players, they have been smart enough to take the advantages of cheap top talent Bundesliga. They actually wanted havertz and Upamecano. Bayern knows they can always take a chance to wait next following season when Havertz would have 1 year left in his contract while Upamecano with so much cheaper release clause. I use the Havertz as an example that you don’t need to wait until his final year before it gets so complicated and sell the player to outside Bayern.

Real Madrid isn’t Bundesliga team though. Not sure if selling players to other teams outside is the argument here.

Didn't Dortmund still have some debt to banks or something because of how bad they were 10-15 years ago?

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

How was a release clause of 45M cheap in 2011/2012 when he signed the contract? What was the EPL highest buy at that time? How many players in the EPL got signed for over 45M around 2011?

Who are you referring to?

Lewandoski suitors were Madrid and Bayern, Lewy chose Bayern or nothing. Aside matching Lewys wages and with Hummels how much is fair for a defender on the last year of his contract in 2016?

Read the above from what you quoted. After 18months(1.5yrs) leaving 2.5yrs. Dortmund made moves to extend. By then Bayern had offered him something which was a far cry from what Dortmund could afford. Similar to how Bayern approached Alaba but its obvious someone had already promised him higher a figure at par with Lewandoski

The article doesn't say anything about ''By then Bayern had offered him something which was a far cry from what Dortmund could afford.'' Would you mind to show me please?

It's not similar, Lewandowski was one of the top striker, you don't just feed him to Bayern just like that while Alaba is 28 years old who is nowhere near worthy on Lewandowski's status.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Didn't Dortmund still have some debt to banks or something because of how bad they were 10-15 years ago?

Yes 2005 I believe not 2011.

 

[kaiser1]

In 2011, Dortmund was the top 20 richest club in the world https://bleacherreport.com/articles/779886-the-top-20-richest-clubs-in-world-football. How is being top 20 richest club having issue with financial power that they can’t afford to pay 8m euro per year for his salary? Isn’t it obvious, the lack of ambition and would rather be Bayern feeding club was the main reason?

So the best deal is Dortmund to let go their top striker for free to Bayern the league title contender rather than selling him to other clubs despite of them having less than what Real Madrid could offer? That’s the most silly deal I can ever imagine, you would rather freely feed your top striker to Bayern so they can be dominant in Europe and the league itself.

Since when Bayern ever spend big on Bundesliga players, they have been smart enough to take the advantages of cheap top talent Bundesliga. They actually wanted havertz and Upamecano. Bayern knows they can always take a chance to wait next following season when Havertz would have 1 year left in his contract while Upamecano with so much cheaper release clause. I use the Havertz as an example that you don’t need to wait until his final year before it gets so complicated and sell the player to outside Bayern.

Real Madrid isn’t Bundesliga team though. Not sure if selling players to other teams outside is the argument here.

Around 2010 to 2011, Bayerns top earners were Ribery and Schweinsteiger on 10M a yr,

What struck me however was just how much the Bavarians needed to pay Ribery to persuade him to sign on the dotted line.
I first noticed this on Twitter when the widely respected journalist Raphael Honigstein , author of the superb Englischer Fussball , announced that Ribery’s net salary would increase to €7 million a year (up from €3.75 million). The German press estimated that a gross salary of €10 million , which is the highest salary in the club’s history.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/400079-how-can-bayern-munich-pay-

Bayern's from that link you provided was 3rd richest in Europe in 2011, valued at $1billion revenue and $396M What sense does it make for Dortmund #20 on the list, valued at 260M (a quarter of Bayern) and revenue 125M(less than a third of Bayern) to pay Lewy 8M?
Few days ago the Delloite money ranking came out, Bayern was 3rd just like in the 2011 listing you provided and Frankfurt was 20th. Should Frankfurt be paying their top earner close to what Bayern was paying their because they do not want to be a feeder team club?

The same type of deals that sent Dortmund to near bankruptcy 6yrs earlier when they gave Marcio Amoroso, Tomas Rosicky and Jan Koller top salaries and couldn't meet their sporting projections.

Bayern actually pays a premium for Bundesliga players. You haven't told me the market price for a defender on his last yr of contract (Hummels) or the highest signing in EPL around 2011 when Gotze signed his contract with a release clause

 

[Hansi Fick]

@UNITED ACADEMY , you've delivered some great insights here. I realize now that indeed BVB should have tried to keep Götze and Lewandowski 8 years ago.

But honestly 35+ posts are wasted on us since we have no power over anything, you should use the energy to build a time machine and tell 2011 Watzke personally to check the bleacherreport online item about his club's finances. Bundesliga will be thanking you, or will have thanked you!

 

[B. Munich]

Dortmund's and their fans problem is that they only look for Bayern and not what they do wrong...

Bayern got the last permanent player (Hummels and Götze went back to Dortmund) of Dortmund in 2014 - it is 2021...
And it is the only player that really is worth mentioning. If you look at Bayern's squad and who plays there you will only find Neuer and Lewy as players that went as top players from other German clubs to Bayern - and even the two made a big step in development since they arrived.

I don't even think many Dortmund fans are accusing Bayern to continuously steal their players.
It's rather British football fans who believe, for whatever reasons, that Dortmund is just Bayern's feeder club.
As you pointed out this is just not true or fake news as a notorious US ex president would have called it.

 

[B. Munich]

And then you and that other Bayern fans poster asked what could Dortmund actually have done when they don’t have financial power. I gave my answer which in my opinion valid answer either you give Lewandowski new contract or you sell him when he only had 2 years left in his contract to get good amount of money which I gave example of what happened when the club set high price on Havertz, Bayern wasn’t willing to spend such thing. And there is no evidence that Lewandowski has set his mind to join Bayern when he was on 2.5 years in his contract, if anything the agent confirmed what happened.

Lewandowski had only 4 seasons at Dortmund.
The first season 2010/11 he wasn't impressive and was mostly second choice.

The second season 2011/12 was he break through season becoming Dortmund's clear number 1 striker with phenomenal games against Real Madrid and Bayern Munich in the cup final.

2012/2013 he already said he wanted to leave for Bayern at the end of season.
However, Dortmund didn't accepted Bayern's offer and decided it would better to let him run down his contract and leave on a free.

So let me know when should Dortmund have sold him? 2013 it was too late because Lewandowski wanted to join Bayern Munich only.
In 2012 he had just one great season. I hardly think they would have gotten more than 30 to 40 million Euro.
Instead they kept him and his goals won Dortmund the DFB Pokal and secured the CL final in Wembley. He also had his best season in Dortmund 2013/14 and behaved absolutely professionally even when it was clear he would join Bayern at the end of the season.

I don't see Dortmund has done much wrong. Or let me phrase it differently. I don't see Dortmund had many better options.

 

[Zehner]

I don't even think many Dortmund fans are accusing Bayern to continuously steal their players.
It's rather British football fans who believe, for whatever reasons, that Dortmund is just Bayern's feeder club.
As you pointed out this is just not true or fake news as a notorious US ex president would have called it.

See, the guy has already stated that he doesn't understand how anyone can defend a rival club, even if it might be correct. He's holding a grudge against Dortmund after the Sancho saga so he's going to use all kinds of self reasoning to justify his opinion of Dortmund being a feeder club by their own choice.

Welcome in the 2020s, the age in which we finally left facts behind us and anybody can just believe what's fitting into their preferred world view most comfortably. He'll never give in and just repeating the same arguments all over again, pretending they haven't already been proven wrong shortly before.

 

[OutlawGER]

Was the only choice to leave it in their final year contract? Leverkusen didn’t take a risk to wait until Havertz reaches to his final year contract. The point is how Leverkusen handled the situation that led them having the power to set very high price on havertz. No cheap release clause like Götze to invite Bayern stealing their players for easily and cheaply. Not leaving Havertz to his final year of his contract so they don’t need to sell cheap to Bayern like Hummels was. And of course no free signing top player like Lewandowski.

Unless you are telling me Lewandowski already set his mind to go to Bayern when he still had 2-3 years in his contract. But that’s not the case isn’t it. Here the quote from his agent:

https://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/392...und-blunders-leave-lewandowski-with-no-choice

Selling players but get good amount of money as long as the club use it for the sake of the team to win trophies or keeping them for same purpose as well especially for long term, whichever they decide to do is fine, in fact that's why I mentioned the idea of getting rid Dembele & Aubameyang are fine. But to let your best players like Lewandowski, Gotze and Hummels for example go to Bayern is the problem, that’s like feeding them to win Bundesliga!

It's easy to argue like you do years after things happened. But it just doesn't make sense to the time you are referring to.


When Götze got his clause, they simply didn't know that he would be that good and valuable. Also they didn't know that he would join Bayern. They were shocked. They learned their lession (by not allowing any more release clauses).

Lewandowski 2 years in contract was nowhere near the level he was 1 or 2 years later. I remember offers like 15-20m for him back then. Peanuts (compared to Havertz). Also you are comparing Dortmund to Leverkusen. Leverkusen is a true feeder club. They don't want sucess, they want to make some money. Believe it or not, Dortmund at least tried to be successful. They didn't want to sell, they just had to sell because they had no other choice. But they wanted to keep their star players. And in my opinion this is a good thing. But along the years they realized that they have to make compromises. They were still learning and trying to find a way to get to the top. And now they found their niche by scouting the best talents in the world and developing them. So either they make profit (to grow to maybe become a top club in future) or they keep some top players. It could be worse for them.


And by the way, why are we still talking about Lewandowski, Hummels and Götze? These are 3 transfers in almost 10 years. In 2 of which they had no possibility to act. And still people claim they are intentionally feeding Bayern just because of those. This makes no sense at all.

 

[Zehner]

It's easy to argue like you do years after things happened. But it just doesn't make sense to the time you are referring to.


When Götze got his clause, they simply didn't know that he would be that good and valuable. Also they didn't know that he would join Bayern. They were shocked. They learned their lession (by not allowing any more release clauses).

Lewandowski 2 years in contract was nowhere near the level he was 1 or 2 years later. I remember offers like 15-20m for him back then. Peanuts (compared to Havertz). Also you are comparing Dortmund to Leverkusen. Leverkusen is a true feeder club. They don't want sucess, they want to make some money. Believe it or not, Dortmund at least tried to be successful. They didn't want to sell, they just had to sell because they had no other choice. But they wanted to keep their star players. And in my opinion this is a good thing. But along the years they realized that they have to make compromises. They were still learning and trying to find a way to get to the top. And now they found their niche by scouting the best talents in the world and developing them. So either they make profit (to grow to maybe become a top club in future) or they keep some top players. It could be worse for them.


And by the way, why are we still talking about Lewandowski, Hummels and Götze? These are 3 transfers in almost 10 years. In 2 of which they had no possibility to act. And still people claim they are intentionally feeding Bayern just because of those. This makes no sense at all.

That's a very weird statement. I mean, it's not like Bayer is making profit with the club. They could generate a larger return on investment by allocating the resources in other projects.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Around 2010 to 2011, Bayerns top earners were Ribery and Schweinsteiger on 10M a yr,




Bayern's from that link you provided was 3rd richest in Europe in 2011, valued at $1billion revenue and $396M What sense does it make for Dortmund #20 on the list, valued at 260M (a quarter of Bayern) and revenue 125M(less than a third of Bayern) to pay Lewy 8M?
Few days ago the Delloite money ranking came out, Bayern was 3rd just like in the 2011 listing you provided and Frankfurt was 20th. Should Frankfurt be paying their top earner close to what Bayern was paying their because they do not want to be a feeder team club?

The same type of deals that sent Dortmund to near bankruptcy 6yrs earlier when they gave Marcio Amoroso, Tomas Rosicky and Jan Koller top salaries and couldn't meet their sporting projections.

Bayern has more than just one player aka lot of players with salary of 5m-8m per year. What sense does it make for you to start comparing Dortmund‘s chance to pay only one single player in their squad as caliber as Lewandowski for 8m per year?

First of all, Frankfurt is not 20th but 27th. Second, they don’t have player as caliber as Lewandowski that worth the money, they don’t have the players/squad to have ambition to win the league like what Dortmund had at that time.

Bayern actually pays a premium for Bundesliga players. You haven't told me the market price for a defender on his last yr of contract (Hummels) or the highest signing in EPL around 2011 when Gotze signed his contract with a release clause

Who?

Why do I need to tell you the market price for a defender on his last year contract, why is it relevant? Are you forgetting that the point is that they shouldn’t let their player on his final year of their contract? Dortmund would lose the price so much when they could actually minimum double the price to sell him when he has 2 years on his contract. That’s why I mentioned Havertz’s case. And again, you don’t insert 37m euro release clause. That’s why I mentioned Havertz’s case.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

It's easy to argue like you do years after things happened. But it just doesn't make sense to the time you are referring to.


When Götze got his clause, they simply didn't know that he would be that good and valuable. Also they didn't know that he would join Bayern. They were shocked. They learned their lession (by not allowing any more release clauses).

Lewandowski 2 years in contract was nowhere near the level he was 1 or 2 years later. I remember offers like 15-20m for him back then. Peanuts (compared to Havertz). Also you are comparing Dortmund to Leverkusen. Leverkusen is a true feeder club. They don't want sucess, they want to make some money. Believe it or not, Dortmund at least tried to be successful. They didn't want to sell, they just had to sell because they had no other choice. But they wanted to keep their star players. And in my opinion this is a good thing. But along the years they realized that they have to make compromises. They were still learning and trying to find a way to get to the top. And now they found their niche by scouting the best talents in the world and developing them. So either they make profit (to grow to maybe become a top club in future) or they keep some top players. It could be worse for them.


And by the way, why are we still talking about Lewandowski, Hummels and Götze? These are 3 transfers in almost 10 years. In 2 of which they had no possibility to act. And still people claim they are intentionally feeding Bayern just because of those. This makes no sense at all.

I don’t compare Dortmund to Leverkusen. I made a point what Dortmund could have done for those three players, give the player new contract before in their final year without inserting release clause or sell them before their final year of the contract to get lot of money like what they did to Aubameyang & Dembele and also Leverkusen did on Havertz (Which why I mentioned Leverkusen’s case on havertz).

The reason why I was talking about Lewandowski, Hummels & Gotze because that’s what started the discussion, I made a point that Dortmund had potential to win few more trophies especially the Bundesliga from building the foundation with those three, but they wasted the chance and chose to just fed them to Bayern aka the feeding club.

 

[B. Munich]

I don’t compare Dortmund to Leverkusen. I made a point what Dortmund could have done for those three players, give the player new contract before in their final year without inserting release clause or sell them before their final year of the contract to get lot of money like what they did to Aubameyang & Dembele and also Leverkusen did on Havertz (Which why I mentioned Leverkusen’s case on havertz).

The reason why I was talking about Lewandowski, Hummels & Gotze because that’s what started the discussion, I made a point that Dortmund had potential to win few more trophies especially the Bundesliga from building the foundation with those three, but they wasted the chance and chose to just fed them to Bayern aka the feeding club.

You are only mentioning the transfers that support your theory. I could easily claim the opposite with accusing Leverkusen to be a feeder club for Dortmund.
Giving away 3 players, Toprak, Castro and Brandt. The latter even in the cheap, much cheaper than Goetze.
While Dortmund made fleeced the competion by selling Auba, Dembele, Kagawa above their actual value.

Some players don't fulfill their potential after moving to another club and the transfer fee looks to high after a few years. Other players like Lewandowski or Mané/Salah over achieved and are looking a bargain in hindsight. That's how football works. Always been that way.

If you are looking at the transfer history of any club over the last 10 years, you can will find blunders. Bayern Munich lost Kroos on the cheap and now Alaba on a free transfer.
I better won't get into Man United transfer record over the last 10 years. However, I think most will agree Dortmund did a better job with only fracture of the resources.