Bundesliga 2018/19

do.ob said:
You keep Boateng and your leadership looks like fools after trying to chase him out of town (Hoeneß) and selling Hummels for a cheap to reasonable amount.
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There is always potential for something like that to happen if the main officials don´t present a unified front in public. The whole Boateng case feels like a typical solo move by Hoeneß to me. You can´t tell me that the discussions about Hummels just gained steam a couple of days ago. The negotiations are already far too advanced for that. If you even think about selling one experienced defender, you should never throw another one under the bus like that.

Now there are in this seemingly awkward situation unless they have already something in the pipeline.
 
What do we think of Alphonso Davies? Will he push more into the team given Ribery/Robben are leaving? Surely that opens up more game time for him? Robben/Ribery combined had 3,000mins last season in all competitions.
 
RedSky said:
What do we think of Alphonso Davies? Will he push more into the team given Ribery/Robben are leaving? Surely that opens up more game time for him? Robben/Ribery combined had 3,000mins last season in all competitions.
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He is nowhere ready for the first team in my opinion. The second team got promoted to the 3rd division, so he might get playing rime there.
 
strongwalker said:
He scored the sixth in a 6:0 against Mainz, which was a second ball after the goalie had parried a Lewa shot.
I agree with @Acrobat7 , it will be a while before he can even think of challenging Coman or Gnabry.
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You need another winger or two to rotate with Coman and Gnabry though and replace Robben/Ribery in your squad. Who have you been linked with?
 
How do the resident Bayern fans on the Caf rate Zirkzee? Potential first team material?
 
Eendracht maakt macht said:
How do the resident Bayern fans on the Caf rate Zirkzee? Potential first team material?
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Is a big talent but as any centre forward will need his time. Problem is the usual one striker system that make it different to develop a striker in better clubs.
 
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Blackwidow said:
Is a big talent but as any centre forward will need his time. Problem is the usual one striker system that make it different to develop a striker in better clubs.
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Thanks for your answer. We need a good striker badly for our NT. Surely we can rely on our lovely neighbours to develop one :D?

On a serious note. Am i right you deem him not good enough to be the back up striker behind Lewandowski in the near future? At least he will be playing in 3. Bundesliga otherwise which isn't too bad developement wise I reckon.
 
Eendracht maakt macht said:
Thanks for your answer. We need a good striker badly for our NT. Surely we can rely on our lovely neighbours to develop one :D?

On a serious note. Am i right you deem him not good enough to be the back up striker behind Lewandowski in the near future? At least he will be playing in 3. Bundesliga otherwise which isn't too bad developement wise I reckon.
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How often does a backup striker for Lewy play? 200 minutes a season? I think that a young player needs to play - maybe not in his main position but he needs the playing time. For Zirkzee playing in the 3rd league now is fine. But even after that the jump from the 3rd league to a top clup in the Bundesliga is too big.
 
I am constantly veering between thinking that this will probably be a most abysmal season and one where we will maybe improve at least playerwise (the latter aspect has to be seen). the thing which bothers me most is the way transfers are handled. Hernandez is a good signing, Pavard will surely improve over his last season at a not-so-well-performing VfB. I am skeptical about Arp, who did not even play for HSV in the second league. But who else will we get? Bale should not be an option - too old, too injury prone, too expensive. Apparently Rodri goes to City. Now there are talks about getting Kabak from Stuttgart..Honestly? I trust that Kovac can do better than last season. But with Ribery, Robben, Alonso, Lahm in the last few seasons we really lost players with game intelligence.Who else can we get? Havertz wont come this summer and is also too young. Whereas we always had a coach who alone would attract new players, now we have a fledgling manager who has to convince new players of a coach whom many people do not even know.
 
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Acrobat7 said:
Hummels for €38m to Dortmund reported by Kicker and SPIEGEL.
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I'm feeling a bit sick. The only thing about this that makes sense to me is wanting the player. They will have to offload a lot of players at CB for that and the price is just baffling to me. I sincerely hope I am misjudging this but it seems really iffy to me.
 
Acrobat7 said:
Hummels for €38m to Dortmund reported by Kicker and SPIEGEL.
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You missed two little very important words here: "up to".

Kicker (who btw. never had exclusive informations in this case and jumped on the bandwaggon fairly late) only cites the number, the sum can rise up to if every single bonus payment will have to be paid.

Other sources who were closer to the transfer cite the basic fee at either just below or at the 30 Mil. € mark with the rest being made up by "very ambitous" (not my words, but the ones of a person who broke the story at the same time as BILD) bonus requirements. I would bet some good money that at least part of the bonus requirements are bound to titles.

This is the typcial case of a transfer that tries to make all involved parties look good. The press get their juicy headlines, the Bayern officials will sell the deal as one that could potentially bring in more transfer fee that it cost them (although that would be a very simplistic view to look at it, but most football fans don´t care about the finer financial details) and the Dortmund officials will argue that in the case of them having to pay the full amount, it will have been more than worth it as it would have meant meaningfull success on the pitch.
 
Swarm said:
I'm feeling a bit sick. The only thing about this that makes sense to me is wanting the player. They will have to offload a lot of players at CB for that and the price is just baffling to me. I sincerely hope I am misjudging this but it seems really iffy to me.
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on the plus side: We got three more millions than we paid. With Pavard as subsitute, we have a young player who has lots of potential and has international experience. So it's about even. Pavard and Süle alongside Boateng and/or Martinez should work out fine.
 
Swarm said:
I'm feeling a bit sick. The only thing about this that makes sense to me is wanting the player. They will have to offload a lot of players at CB for that and the price is just baffling to me. I sincerely hope I am misjudging this but it seems really iffy to me.
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I think Hummels is an ideal fit for BVB. Teams consisting of a majority of unexperienced talent often struggle in difficult situations, and dortmund showed signs of that. Hummels may just be what they need after Weidenfeller and Kehls exit, he's more of a natural leader than Reus, and he has shown this season he still has the class. The transfer makes a lot of sense for BVB, but little from Bayerns point of view - the money they don't really need, and it may give the fiercest rival the edge it lacked this season.
 
santuris said:
Whereas we always had a coach who alone would attract new players, now we have a fledgling manager who has to convince new players of a coach whom many people do not even know.
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We have been one of the sexiest gals at the party for a while, but we aren't any more, only partly due to the current manager. Our management hasn't realized this yet.
 
Sphaero said:
You missed two little very important words here: "up to".

Kicker (who btw. never had exclusive informations in this case and jumped on the bandwaggon fairly late) only cites the number, the sum can rise up to if every single bonus payment will have to be paid.

Other sources who were closer to the transfer cite the basic fee at either just below or at the 30 Mil. € mark with the rest being made up by "very ambitous" (not my words, but the ones of a person who broke the story at the same time as BILD) bonus requirements. I would bet some good money that at least part of the bonus requirements are bound to titles.

This is the typcial case of a transfer that tries to make all involved parties look good. The press get their juicy headlines, the Bayern officials will sell the deal as one that could potentially bring in more transfer fee that it cost them (although that would be a very simplistic view to look at it, but most football fans don´t care about the finer financial details) and the Dortmund officials will argue that in the case of them having to pay the full amount, it will have been more than worth it as it would have meant meaningfull success on the pitch.
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I honestly don't feel like Dortmund look like winners here at all. If it were 20 mil up to 30 mil, that would've been fine with me but even the supposed base payment (I believe it is €30.5 mil according to WAZ and Ruhrnachrichten) seems ludicrous to me.

Anyways, that is just the financial aspect of it. I am generally really looking forward to seeing Hummels in our jersey again and hope he can give us 2-3 more years of his best which has always been outstanding. But how does this tie in with the rest of the squad? As it stands right now we have 5 CBs that have clear ambition to play: Hummels, Akanji, Diallo, Zagadou, Balerdi. Add to that Toprak who I assume will be offloaded and Weigl who might leave as well but is originally a DM and you have 5-7 players for two positions.
One option would be to switch to three at the back:

Schulz (Schmelzer)--------------------Hakimi (Wolf)
----------Diallo(Zagadou)----Akanji(Piszczek)------
-----------------Hummels(Balerdi)------------------

That actually doesn't look too bad to me. That would raise questions about the attacking side of things though where we currently have Reus, Brandt, Sancho, Götze, Alcacer, Hazard who all have ambitions/wages of a starter. Add to them Guerreiro (probably on his way out), Bruun-Larsen (probably not good enough but would probably have to be loaned out to find out with this squad) and Dahoud (still basically our only dynamic CM) and you once again have a huge excess of players and specifically wages.

That means either we will have paid a lot of money for attacking options that will not be regular starters or there will have to be some big players on their way out. Most notably Diallo has been linked with a €50 mil move to PSG. That may bring in the cash and the space for the Hummels deal but I am still not sure that is a good deal. May be wrong there of course.

I will of course hold my final judgement until all transfer dealings have finished but right now I just don't see what the aim is. Will gladly let Zorc, Watzke and the rest enlighten me :)
 
strongwalker said:
I think Hummels is an ideal fit for BVB. Teams consisting of a majority of unexperienced talent often struggle in difficult situations, and dortmund showed signs of that. Hummels may just be what they need after Weidenfeller and Kehls exit, he's more of a natural leader than Reus, and he has shown this season he still has the class. The transfer makes a lot of sense for BVB, but little from Bayerns point of view - the money they don't really need, and it may give the fiercest rival the edge it lacked this season.
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Thanks for trying to cheer me up :lol: I am actually really hyped about seeing Hummels back in Dortmund. Love him as a player and also don't mind his antics too much either. It's the circumstances that have me worried. The mere fact that we are stacked with defenders, have a bloated squad with a huge wage bill and have spent roundabout €100mil already makes this a bit baffling to me. And what you say about leadership may be true but wouldn't it have been needed last season and not next? What is the point in getting someone to help his mates develop if it means that these mates will play less? I had hoped last season was a bit of a learning effort and Akanji/Diallo would reign supreme next season. Or even better, Zagadou steps up, I am a huge fan of the lad. And how Balerdi slots into this picture I am not sure but if they paid over €15mil for him last winter they must have seen something in him and he should be given playtime at some point?

Anyways, if they do not plan to play with three at the back I assume either Diallo will be sold (would be a bit sad, I don't like selling players after just one season and he hasn't even really had the opportunity to shine yet), Zagadou will be loaned out (even sadder for me, want him to make it with us, but still better than selling him, I would be outraged) or Balerdi will be loaned out (I wouldn't mind too much but this would make his transfer in the winter look kind of bad at that price). I assume Toprak will definitely leave (or not see any play) and Weigl is probably on his way out or at least not playing as CB anymore.

HerrLeinad said:
BVB weakening the direct competition again. :p;)
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I am dying of laughter.
 
I will of course hold my final judgement until all transfer dealings have finished but right now I just don't see what the aim is. Will gladly let Zorc, Watzke and the rest enlighten me :)
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Same here with exchange of names: Hoeness, Salihamidzic and the rest. Maybe..maybe we get de Ligt, somebody for midfield and a winger. Then that would be fine!
 
Ok serious question because as a Sporting fan and knowing Sporting fans we would boo this man every time he touched the ball.

So Gotze and Hummels formed in BVB feck off to a direct rival in Bayern..fail and then are accepted back "home" with open arms?

Thats like leaving your wife for another women and then after she dumps you you come back to your life because you "love her"

How do the resident BVB fans feel about this? Or how do fans in the dortmund forum feel because I would love to know.

He is a good player and will bring quality but to pay 38M for a guy who basically fecked off to a rival? nah
 
SportingCP96 said:
Ok serious question because as a Sporting fan and knowing Sporting fans we would boo this man every time he touched the ball.

So Gotze and Hummels formed in BVB feck off to a direct rival in Bayern..fail and then are accepted back "home" with open arms?

Thats like leaving your wife for another women and then after she dumps you you come back to your life because you "love her"

How do the resident BVB fans feel about this? Or how do fans in the dortmund forum feel because I would love to know.

He is a good player and will bring quality but to pay 38M for a guy who basically fecked off to a rival? nah
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So I can't speak for all Dortmund fans and as with everything there will be a big spectrum of reactions to this transfer. There are those that never wanted to have him back, those that are really happy about having a great player back in the team and those inbetween, that are just a bit torn, like me. I am sure there will be boos for him in his first couple of home games but that is to be expected. I don't think the reactions will be as harsh as you are describing.

I don't think your wife comparison holds up, this is still a job and maybe I approach the subject a bit more pragmatically than the average Sporting fan. But then again, sometimes relationships end and it isn't even unheard of that couples get back together after a break-up :)

What I strongly disagree about is you saying that Hummels failed at Bayern. I really don't think that is the case. He may not always have been perfect and had some weaker spells but overall he is still a very strong defender and showed this at Bayern. Especially the second half of last season showed once again what he is still capable of. So Dortmund is not buying him to do him a favor, they want him to play an important role on the pitch.

So what about my two cents? I am really a bit torn. I love Hummels as a player and he was one of my favourites in the Klopp era. The first name on my jersey since Dede. He could have been a Dortmund legend, the man to lead them to two Bundesliga titles and maybe even more had he stayed. He had left Bayern at a young age because they didn't rate him enough and he had claimed not wanting to go back during his stay in Dortmund. That is why I was shocked, when he left. Not because of the way he left or why but just because I did not see it coming at all. He had presented himself as Mr. Dortmund and then he left. I didn't hold grudges, I was just sad, that he was gone.
He can never reach that level of acceptance or adoration again. He will never be the icon that he could have been. Now he can merely be a really good player at my club. One that I don't really blame for the move he made and one that - should he be able to recreate his performances - I will love to see on the pitch in a Dortmund shirt again.
 
Swarm said:
So I can't speak for all Dortmund fans and as with everything there will be a big spectrum of reactions to this transfer. There are those that never wanted to have him back, those that are really happy about having a great player back in the team and those inbetween, that are just a bit torn, like me. I am sure there will be boos for him in his first couple of home games but that is to be expected. I don't think the reactions will be as harsh as you are describing.

I don't think your wife comparison holds up, this is still a job and maybe I approach the subject a bit more pragmatically than the average Sporting fan. But then again, sometimes relationships end and it isn't even unheard of that couples get back together after a break-up :)

What I strongly disagree about is you saying that Hummels failed at Bayern. I really don't think that is the case. He may not always have been perfect and had some weaker spells but overall he is still a very strong defender and showed this at Bayern. Especially the second half of last season showed once again what he is still capable of. So Dortmund is not buying him to do him a favor, they want him to play an important role on the pitch.

So what about my two cents? I am really a bit torn. I love Hummels as a player and he was one of my favourites in the Klopp era. The first name on my jersey since Dede. He could have been a Dortmund legend, the man to lead them to two Bundesliga titles and maybe even more had he stayed. He had left Bayern at a young age because they didn't rate him enough and he had claimed not wanting to go back during his stay in Dortmund. That is why I was shocked, when he left. Not because of the way he left or why but just because I did not see it coming at all. He had presented himself as Mr. Dortmund and then he left. I didn't hold grudges, I was just sad, that he was gone.
He can never reach that level of acceptance or adoration again. He will never be the icon that he could have been. Now he can merely be a really good player at my club. One that I don't really blame for the move he made and one that - should he be able to recreate his performances - I will love to see on the pitch in a Dortmund shirt again.
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When I said fail it was more directed at Gotze then Hummels because like you said Hummels still showed the quality he did at dortmund albeit not as consistently.

Also ya that was a great counter argument to the break up example:lol:

I still think he can be a great player at your club no doubt and will improve your team but it is such a pet peeve of mine.

When Moutinho went to Porto for example I would never want him back.

Like you said though after a few months pass and if he is playing well week in week out fans will start to forgive him a bit. It happened with Bruno this year.
 
SportingCP96 said:
Ok serious question because as a Sporting fan and knowing Sporting fans we would boo this man every time he touched the ball.

So Gotze and Hummels formed in BVB feck off to a direct rival in Bayern..fail and then are accepted back "home" with open arms?

Thats like leaving your wife for another women and then after she dumps you you come back to your life because you "love her"

How do the resident BVB fans feel about this? Or how do fans in the dortmund forum feel because I would love to know.

He is a good player and will bring quality but to pay 38M for a guy who basically fecked off to a rival? nah
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Before they left there were heroes, seemingly destined to become club legends. They return as a piece of business, getting a good player for a decent fee, some hate them, some tolerate them, very few love them like they did before.
 
do.ob said:
Before they left there were heroes, seemingly destined to become club legends. They return as a piece of business, getting a good player for a decent fee, some hate them, some tolerate them, very few love them like they did before.
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If they would have stayed it would of been better for both there careers and for Dortmund.

The worst of the bunch I can imagine is Lewandoski who screws you guys over and didn't even allow BVB to get a fee for basically forming him. Disgusting attitude and a smack in the face.
 
I'll be honest, when I saw that Hummels was signing for Dortmund, my heart sank a little that he had been available (probably at a good price) but that we've got Jones, Rojo etc. so we don't need him... then I saw the price!!!!!! OMG WTF are Dortmund doing? Great player, but genuinely past his peak! What kind of prices are clubs demanding for their players these days?!?!?!?
 
Decomposing In Paris said:
I'll be honest, when I saw that Hummels was signing for Dortmund, my heart sank a little that he had been available (probably at a good price) but that we've got Jones, Rojo etc. so we don't need him... then I saw the price!!!!!! OMG WTF are Dortmund doing? Great player, but genuinely past his peak! What kind of prices are clubs demanding for their players these days?!?!?!?
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"€38m" is Kicker kindly helping Bayern to spin this. It's a number that includes all the possible bonus payments (including trophies). The base payment is probably around €25m-30m (Bild, who were first on the story even went as low as €20m), which I think is a fair price.
 
do.ob said:
Before they left there were heroes, seemingly destined to become club legends. They return as a piece of business, getting a good player for a decent fee, some hate them, some tolerate them, very few love them like they did before.
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I think they were quite dissimilar though. Götze was still a kid and I think most expected him to leave at some point. Just not as quickly and not to Bayern and in the way it happened. Götze played in Dortmunds first team for three years. Hummels played for eight, he was the team captain and a leader. As a bonus he had joined with a bit of a vendetta on Bayern and I do believe he wanted to prove them wrong for not trusting in him. He would have been a legend and I am still saddened that it wasn't to be.

SportingCP96 said:
If they would have stayed it would of been better for both there careers and for Dortmund.

The worst of the bunch I can imagine is Lewandoski who screws you guys over and didn't even allow BVB to get a fee for basically forming him. Disgusting attitude and a smack in the face.
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Very few players spend all their time at one club. Even fewer do it at a club like Dortmund that is not in the absolute top tier. So it can be expected that they eventually leave (even though as described I didn't think Hummels would). I don't really hold grudges against anyone except maybe Dembele who just acted like a spoiled brat. Maybe least of all I blame Lewandowski though. He was always clear about what he wanted and he always delivered. He is the perfect mercenary and I can respect that. The year before he left Bayern tried to lowball Dortmund with a laughable offer. Dortmund declined knowing that Lewandowski would join them on a free the next season. Lewandowski himself didn't throw a hissy fit but scored the most goals in the Bundesliga in his last season. Absolutely nothing to be mad about.
 
do.ob said:
"€38m" is Kicker kindly helping Bayern to spin this. It's a number that includes all the possible bonus payments (including trophies). The base payment is probably around €25m-30m (Bild, who were first on the story even went as low as €20m), which I think is a fair price.
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Thanks for clearing that up. United have got to get a paper that spins in our favour as players add-ons and wages tend to get thrown into the headline price... or maybe we actually do, and it's the Glaziers spreading that propaganda... anyway, I digress. €20m is much more reasonable when moving to a direct rival.
 
It´s a deal worth 38m. There isn´t a chance in hell BVB paid 38m for him, its in bonuses and other payments.
 
Swarm said:
I think they were quite dissimilar though. Götze was still a kid and I think most expected him to leave at some point. Just not as quickly and not to Bayern and in the way it happened. Götze played in Dortmunds first team for three years. Hummels played for eight, he was the team captain and a leader. As a bonus he had joined with a bit of a vendetta on Bayern and I do believe he wanted to prove them wrong for not trusting in him. He would have been a legend and I am still saddened that it wasn't to be.



Very few players spend all their time at one club. Even fewer do it at a club like Dortmund that is not in the absolute top tier. So it can be expected that they eventually leave (even though as described I didn't think Hummels would). I don't really hold grudges against anyone except maybe Dembele who just acted like a spoiled brat. Maybe least of all I blame Lewandowski though. He was always clear about what he wanted and he always delivered. He is the perfect mercenary and I can respect that. The year before he left Bayern tried to lowball Dortmund with a laughable offer. Dortmund declined knowing that Lewandowski would join them on a free the next season. Lewandowski himself didn't throw a hissy fit but scored the most goals in the Bundesliga in his last season. Absolutely nothing to be mad about.
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Why would Dortmund reject the offer knowing he would leave for nothing? They wanted to go all in during that season I guess?
 
SportingCP96 said:
Ok serious question because as a Sporting fan and knowing Sporting fans we would boo this man every time he touched the ball.

So Gotze and Hummels formed in BVB feck off to a direct rival in Bayern..fail and then are accepted back "home" with open arms?

Thats like leaving your wife for another women and then after she dumps you you come back to your life because you "love her"

How do the resident BVB fans feel about this? Or how do fans in the dortmund forum feel because I would love to know.

He is a good player and will bring quality but to pay 38M for a guy who basically fecked off to a rival? nah
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I seperate the person from the player. On a personal level I hold absolutely no sympathies for Mats Hummels. He is both a coward and fraud in my eyes. As a player he brings qualities to the table that make the team and club better and that frankly is all that counts.

It is super simple for me: The welfare of the club stands above all else and no person is bigger than the club.

The only exceptions for this are people who actively damaged the club in their time here. The likes of Niebaum, Meier, Tuchel or Dembele would never be welcomed again here by me, simply because they screwed over more than the feelings of fans but the people actively working for the club.

The worst I can attest Götze and Hummels were pathetic exists from the viewpoint as supporter. Their contributions to the success of the club still outweigh that, especially in the case of Hummels. Because of this they deserve to try to regain the acceptance of the support. That is all they will be able to get in the eyes of most fans, though. Acceptance, never adoration let alone love.
 
SportingCP96 said:
Why would Dortmund reject the offer knowing he would leave for nothing? They wanted to go all in during that season I guess?
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They felt that having a world class striker for one more season was worth more than what Bayern had offered them.
 
Sphaero said:
I seperate the person from the player. On a personal level I hold absolutely no sympathies for Mats Hummels. He is both a coward and fraud in my eyes. As a player he brings qualities to the table that make the team and club better and that frankly is all that counts.

It is super simple for me: The welfare of the club stands above all else and no person is bigger than the club.

The only exceptions for this are people who actively damaged the club in their time here. The likes of Niebaum, Meier, Tuchel or Dembele would never be welcomed again here by me, simply because they screwed over more than the feelings of fans but the people actively working for the club.

The worst I can attest Götze and Hummels were pathetic exists from the viewpoint as supporter. Their contributions to the success of the club still outweigh that, especially in the case of Hummels. Because of this they deserve to try to regain the acceptance of the support. That is all they will be able to get in the eyes of most fans, though. Acceptance, never adoration let alone love.
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That lest line was the most important. Fair enough. It is a common situation for Sporting so I have a hard time trusting or "loving" players.
 
Swarm said:
They felt that having a world class striker for one more season was worth more than what Bayern had offered them.
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In the end of the day would you say that move was worth it? What did Dortmund win that season? I truly cant remember. I am fairly sure it was not the CL final season though.
 
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