Who is the worst number 10 you've seen in a great team?
Bruno is underrated thread
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Who is the worst number 10 you've seen in a great team?
I don't think it must be a no.10 to be a fair comparison. The most advanced central midfielder, or a dynamic midfield two with a DM behind them or a deep-lying striker in a front two etc are all valid comparisons.
Off the top of my head without digging:
- Klopp has built two great teams but he's never had an attacking midfielder as good as Bruno. I guess Reus was better, but he mainly featured on the left wing I think?
- It's a bit early of course, but Havertz is currently starting for a title challenger that challenged last season too. Yes he wasn't there, but he was deemed good enough to take a starting spot so...
- Rooney post injury in mid 2010 when playing as a no.10 was not better than Bruno. He was a better goalscorer, but not better in the overall play.
I feel that Real, Barca, Atletico, Juventus, Bayern etc all have achieved great things with a worse AM at some point in the last 20 years, but I can't be bothered to dig.
Bruno would have killed it for prime Fergie, Klopp, Mourinho, Ancelotti and Simeone. Prime Pep is a bit less certain, but that is primarily because the likes of Iniesta and De Bruyne are out of this world.
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Well you started like this: [ Great argument. I'm sure, fecking KDB watches every minute of United and spends his freetime analyzing our team performance. ....] So I kinda lost it in translation. But my bad, I've read it again and you are correct. It's not a rant at all and not an un reasonable take to be fair.
Put it this way. they are two threads in here deditcated to outlining how Rashford and Bruno are the pornlem and how having Bruno means we'll never challenge for the title.I've met plenty fof fans in real ife with such an inane take on Bruno, That is why some of us coluded he is grossly underrated.
True. To be fair though it goes with the territory of opinion driven forums. Blurred lines and all
[QUOTE="NZT-One, post: 31836839, member: 121327]
No. But I guess they are criticizing a player who is supposed to play better than he does these days, isn't he? Pretty sure they are also talking about Rashford in a similar way.....Honestly, they don't. For Rashford they concentrate on how 'he looks unhappy' 'like its a valid excuse for his on filed demeanour, and "he is still young and makes msitakes' and and excuse for his not i making hinself consistent by now as a performer. As for Bruno 'he is kicked from pillar to post'. From his character [called petulant, weak willed, poor leader] to his on field discipline [none existent and erratic) to his ability [great talent not player] etc. Listening to them one would think he is the most unreliable and out of form player United currently have, setting a toxic example to the squad, if one didn't see him play for themselves
[QUOTE="NZT-One, post: 31836839, member: 121327]
You don't like the current coverage - I know the feeling, I didn't like the shallow praise during some times in the past. I guess we all have to learn to live with it.[/Quote] Heh
This is just pure fantasy. You've mentioned Havertz who to my knowledge has never been part of a great team and near retirement/post injury Rooney. Anyways we are never going to agree on Bruno, let's just leave it at that.
But it’s a daft question to be fair, because players in great teams tend to get vastly overrated due to their team being great.
Mata at Chelsea a great example, many thought him better than David Silva, but then we saw him in a shit United team didn’t we?
Litmanen at Ajax, average as feck in not so great teams.
Joe Cole another shout.
Then there’s Sneijder in the Inter treble team and Mario Götze.
It’s hard to look a great player in an average team, much easy to look great around great.
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But he still sits very high in the leader board of that stat, would you prefer it if he didn’t make passes to player who are then in a position to shoot ( and if they were clinical, score)?
Bruno is overrated by United fans like Rashford during his purple patches. He would not get into Ferguson's great teams.
Well obviously, he plays the most creative position/role on the pitch anyone with a brain would assume an attacking midfielder will be passing plenty into forwards that are going to shoot, especially considering the style of football we *try* to play and the wingers we employ. The initial point is that "chances created" doesn't actually do a great job expressing the quality of pass/actual level of chance (was it a sitter or just someone taking a pot shot from outside the box)/ overall effectiveness which is why I don't like using it as this godly stat to show how much better one player is over another. As I said before, "big chances created" is a better metric as it shows how many passes were played into what should be sitters or prime chances to score. In that metric he's still high (4th or 5th last I checked) but it's hardly him blowing away any other footballers.
Now that's ironic
Ehm, that "near retirement" Rooney you speak of played for another 11 seasons. 8 of them in the PL. And in the 3 years after his big injury we won the PL twice (and finished 2nd on goal difference) and reached a CL final. Was that version of Rooney silky? Creative? Good at dribbling? Fast?
That's true, but I wish you would be honest with your arguments. I wish you (and others to be fair) would just admit that you don't rate Bruno and want him gone for that reason alone. It's a weird opinion that I will never understand, but at least it's honest.
Claiming that it makes sense from a financial point of view is nonsense.
Claiming that we must be ruthless/smart like Real Madrid even though our situations are nothing alike is nonsense.
Claiming that no great team (i.e. multiple big trophy winning) has had a worse attacking midfielder before is nonsense.
Rashford and him are the same in that if they are the slightest bit fatigued they stink up the place. Rashford should have been benched earlier with Garnacho filling in but Mounts injury made it so that once again Bruno had to play. Really we should have switched to a different system once Bruno was off the pace and rested him.
Rashford Hojland
Bruno
Mount
(CDM signing) Maino box to box
New Lb new cb new cb Dalot
Rashford Hojland
Bruno
Mount
(CDM signing) Maino box to box
New Lb new cb new cb Dalot
That’s not comparing apples with apples is it though because Bruno has been a key part of a team that for 4.5 years he’s been here has massively underachieved and as a result he’s played in the EL more often while KDB has been successful in the CL and premier league.
Also the fact that Bruno takes penalties and the majority of set pieces skews figures.
If we stick to the prem and non penalty goals and assists per 90 to keep a level playing field it looks like this…
Bruno
Mins 13539
Goals 34
Assists 38
G/A per 187 mins
KDB
Mins 10186
Goals 41
Assists 64
G/A per 97 mins.
It’s not even a competition is it? Also comparing Bruno to Scholes? I don’t care what the comparison is it’s embarrassing. Scholes was ten levels above Bruno.
Hold on….Rooney in 2010,11,12,13 wasn’t better in overall play than Bruno? Get to feck. What an embarrassing post. It’s right up there with you stating he is your player of this season.
I’m not a fan of the term in general but ‘fanboy’ definitely sums you up. Wow.
It’s almost as though one plays with Aguero, Haaland in a team with 70% possession deep in the opposition half, and the other with Weghorst, Martial and Højlund.
Wait a minute…
De Bruyne signed for City 5 years before Bruno, but has played 3500 minutes less?
Completely wrong numbers for De Bruyne. He is at 19.264 minutes played, 67 goals + 110 assists (didn't check for penalties) which puts him at 109min/G+A. I can only assume that OP only included the seasons Bruno also was playing in the PL to have a level playing ground, but I think that doesn't really work either.Wait a minute…
De Bruyne signed for City 5 years before Bruno, but has played 3500 minutes less?
In my hypothetical scenario in the post you're responding to, we'd have a team full of other good, consistent players.
Besides Bruno's captaincy has hindered his performances in my view. There have been a number of times Bruno is so preoccupied with what his teammates are doing that he's ended up losing his own marker.
The one I remember most recently was him constantly looking back to ensure his teammates were in position, and Noble running off him and scoring.
Second is you need do need a calmer head, there's no senior player that currently fits the bill, but ideally it would be great if we had someone with controlled passion. Bruno loses his head a lot, and the team he leads follows suit.
It wouldn’t be like Jeppers to pretend a period in which KdB had been at his club 5 years already, the manager had been there for 3 and is the most successful period we’ve ever seen in English foootball is more fair than erm, I dun know, his entire Prem Career or his first 5 seasons?
Nope, fair is taking the seasons his side is about to have won 5 titles, averaging around 100 goals scored a season
It’s over the same time period…so both from 19/20. However much to Bruno’s credit he has managed to play the equivalent to 37 more games, a full season really than KDB in that time.Wait a minute…
De Bruyne signed for City 5 years before Bruno, but has played 3500 minutes less?
It wouldn’t be like Jeppers to pretend a period in which KdB had been at his club 5 years already, the manager had been there for 3 and is the most successful period we’ve ever seen in English foootball is more fair than erm, I dun know, his entire Prem Career or his first 5 seasons?
Nope, fair is taking the seasons his side is about to have won 5 titles, averaging around 100 goals scored a season
I have him on ignore but did he really crunch a load of numbers to try and prove that KDB is more productive than Bruno when the excellent post from @troylocker makes that clear from the outset? Shock horror, main creator for best team in the league by a country mile has more G+A than his counterpart at a club with the likes of Rashford, Ronaldo, Martial and Weghorst leading the line
KdB aside, it was the fact that Bruno’s number are better than all the other players mentioned in that post which really stand out. Not bad for someone who is supposed to be dragging this team down and swapping him out for one of those other players would instantly improve us. Something doesn’t add up.
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So what do you make Bruno responsible for, because to me it’s a little bit ridiculous.It wouldn’t be like Jeppers to pretend a period in which KdB had been at his club 5 years already, the manager had been there for 3 and is the most successful period we’ve ever seen in English foootball is more fair than erm, I dun know, his entire Prem Career or his first 5 seasons?
Nope, fair is taking the seasons his side is about to have won 5 titles, averaging around 100 goals scored a season
His numbers are ‘amazing’ and justify his performances…until they are questioned legitimately.
His performances are not his fault.
The team’s performance is nothing to do with him.
Everything is the result of playing with all of these players who don’t deserve to be on the same pitch as him.
There has to be some balance somewhere and some accountability. We aren’t even just talking about big games where we might get dominated and asking why he doesn’t perform better.
What is the reason for his regular poor performances. Why can’t he perform the basics of controlling a ball and passing it well, keeping it under pressure. Why does he not regularly have games that are brilliant like he did when he first arrived.
At some point Bruno fans need to accept some level of accountability exists, it’s frankly ridiculous when you take the whole reasoning used by his fans around him.
He'd be ahead of a Giggs in midfield IMHO. Bruno may not be IT but he's not a selling priority. His overall ability, fitness levels, versatility and hunger make him indispensable to have around in the squad.
I reckon he just needs strong competition for a starting spot - a bit like Shaw.
Dunno about Giggs but he’d have been a massive upgrade on the likes of Anderson and Cleverley. Probably Park too. And, obviously, Kagawa. Plus Veron. In fact he’d comfortably hold down a place in most Fergie teams. Fergie would have loved him.
Nobody cares that you ‘have him on ignore’….what a weird thing to write. You put me on ignore when you couldn’t come back on your complete and utter hypocrisy. The less you respond to me, the less your credibility is ruined.I have him on ignore but did he really crunch a load of numbers to try and prove that KDB is more productive than Bruno when the excellent post from @troylocker makes that clear from the outset? Shock horror, main creator for best team in the league by a country mile has more G+A than his counterpart at a club with the likes of Rashford, Ronaldo, Martial and Weghorst leading the line
KdB aside, it was the fact that Bruno’s number are better than all the other players mentioned in that post which really stand out. Not bad for someone who is supposed to be dragging this team down.
What is true is that their are two outliers with regards to Bruno that don’t carry forwards endlessly. First of all he was sensational for his first 12 calendar months. That was 4 years ago and it hasn’t continued. His numbers back then coupled with the huge amount of penalties still mask him statistically.
Secondly he plays almost every minute, where others don’t.
If you take away the outliers and break it down to per minute. Over the last three full seasons. (3 out of 4.5) the majority of his time here statistically hasn’t been great. His performances certainly haven’t and there is no argument on that game to game in his performance thread. It’s unanimous when he plays well and when he doesn’t.
I honestly think you've lost your mind on this one.
Do KDB's first 5 seasons including the time getting used to a new club that wasn't steamrolling everyone most weeks instead. That will give you a much better idea of the two players and their productivity and I imagine you'll find it's much closer.
I mean, your argument basically tells me that Phil Foden is not just "better", but in fact a much better player than Ryan Giggs. And Giggsy played in some absolutely stunning teams, unlike Bruno.
You aren't questioning his numbers, you're creating an argument where you compare him to the best player in the entire league, who plays in a team that regularly finishes with 40 goals more and around 30 points more, a team that just completed the treble and looks like they might even fecking repeat it.
You have a chance to compare that guy in a "lesser" City team and with the same circumstances of coming to a new club in a new league, but you decided you'd choose the massively dominant period of his City career and claim it an attempt to "keep a level playing field".
Absolutely lost your mind man.
If you want to know what I hold "Bruno" personally responsible for, you can go through my posts and find me making the same argument for most of our players. When the system is so chaotic that it's made Casemiro go from looking like one of the best in the league and every bit a multi CL winner, and the same with Varane, to two players looking like lost children within a matter of 3 months; when every single man and his dog can see we have an insane tactic coming directly from the manager where everyone in front of the back 4 goes full press, whilst the back 4 sit off and we invite 20 or so shots a game from the opposition often doing nothing more than 1-2 passes before running 4 v 4 at our defence.... I actually reserve judgement on all of these players, especially the ones who've proven themselves as good players at United when the system and setup has functioned.
The other option I see is that we sell everyone bar Mainoo and Garda due to their ages before if we're making individual players more responsible for this mess than the manager, then it's every single one of them every single week.
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I disagree – I don't mind him trying the Hollywood passes that don't come off, it's the simple 5 yard passes he tries and fails to find a teammate with are the killer. I think his passing is generally shocking and a number of our 'attacks' die after a pass from his feet.
And there is no way Fergie would have loved him more than Park.
Really. I do.He’d be a massive upgrade on Park? He’s a better player than Veron and would comfortably make the first 11 in 93-95 team…where? 96-99 team…where? 00-04 team…where? 05-09….where? 10-13…where?
He wouldn’t have made any of the first 11s. He wouldn’t have replaced Cantona. He wouldn’t have replaced Scholes. He wouldn’t have replaced Rooney. He wouldn’t have worked in midfield and you wouldn’t play him up front.
I don’t remember creating the argument? Somebody compared his numbers with KDB so I looked at both players over the same period ie Brunos entire time at the club since he arrived last.
I mean I just wouldn’t compare him to KDB myself. He’s nowhere near him.
I mean, here you are creating an argument where you attempt to make the poster's Bruno numbers look worse than he posted, by removing pens (understandable) and then cherry picking KDB's by far most productive period in a miles better steamrolling team to create "a level playing field" for the stats.....
Can I ask you one question @Jeppers7, what were your thought on Ruud?
1. Imagine the ball outside the box 50/50 chance it's a goal. Who do you want in that situation?
2. To execute the final pass on the counter?
3. Penalty?
Bruno on all 3! (Maybe on penalties a tie with Rashford)
2. To execute the final pass on the counter?
3. Penalty?
Bruno on all 3! (Maybe on penalties a tie with Rashford)
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He is no way getting in the team ahead of Giggs. He is too wasteful. He may not be a selling priority but he is overrated by many United fans.
I just picked the same period of time that both have been in the league. In fact I didn’t even think that deeply about it. Did the poster I replied to have a timeframe? I can’t remember. Just seemed like the normal way to do it. Similar to if I was comparing Hojlund to Rashford. I’d use the time they have both played in the league. I’d also add that the time also includes Bruno’s by far more productive period.
Ultimately I don’t think both players are comparable, a bit like comparing Messi to Mahrez.
Ruud was a world class player who performed brilliantly week in week out for years. Not comparable to Bruno who hasn’t performed for years. However we were better as a team once he left as we could become a more dynamic team and less focussed on feeding one players strengths.
People forget how wasteful Giggsy was in midfield.. Arguably more infuriating and one of the few players the OT crowd would regularly moan at.
This. It would be a lot less tiresome reading certain people's arguments if they were just honest and said "I don't like Bruno and want him gone". It's absurd to argue that it makes financial sense to prioritise selling him this summer when we have at least half a dozen players stinking up the gaff. Bruno is one of the few players who puts in the work rate you'd expect from a United player. In the future if we eventually end up with a midfield 3 that is better without Bruno, I'd happily keep him around as a squad player as he'd be a good influence in the dressing room.
His passing isn't shocking, it's just more direct than what you like it. A lower conversionrate is the price you pay for a vertical passing style.
Bruno has played 7000 minutes more for us in 4 years than Park did in 7, he has 80 more goal contributions (138 vs. 58), he's never injured and captains a team that has struggled the last 11 years. Park was a squad player (a good one) in a great united squad and never a key player for us. I think Bruno would have a good chance of earning Fergies love. He did after all appreciate directness, fast transitions and running your boots off.
I think he's regressed each season since 20/21. He doesn't get to take as many penalties as he did during his first 18 months at the club, which has affected his goals tally.
He's scored 30 penalties out of his 76 goals for the club. That's almost 39.5%. It's a lot.
Messi and Ronaldo have taken and scored a lot of penalties in their careers, but penalties still only account for just short of 13% of Messi's overall career goals. Ronaldo's is 18.4%.
Gerrard's 46 penalties account for 21.8% of his career goals. Lampard's is 20.1%.
Bruno's has scored 180 career goals. 53 penalties. 29.4% of his overall goals.
He's scored 30 penalties out of his 76 goals for the club. That's almost 39.5%. It's a lot.
Messi and Ronaldo have taken and scored a lot of penalties in their careers, but penalties still only account for just short of 13% of Messi's overall career goals. Ronaldo's is 18.4%.
Gerrard's 46 penalties account for 21.8% of his career goals. Lampard's is 20.1%.
Bruno's has scored 180 career goals. 53 penalties. 29.4% of his overall goals.
The penalty focus is a weird one to me. I get your point but one thing I will say: I absolutely see it as a positive that we have a player who is so good on penalties. I never doubt Bruno when we get a pen.
Really odd argument. First off he plays in nothing like the attacking role of Messi or Ronaldo, so of course they score more regular goals percentage wise, as would any good proper forward.
Gerrard was average at pens, how many did he miss again? (Checked, he missed 16% of his pens compared to 10% for Bruno)
It’s basically an argument that attempts to make him being very fecking good at taking penalties somehow be negative
You know there’s a much easier way to do this right?
SG scored a non penalty PL goal every 5.5 games.
Bruno is on 4.55.
Lampard 4.2.
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Are you suggesting that Chelsea team was a great team? I certainly don't remember them being great (sure they won the CL, but then they did it again a few years ago with Mount as one of the star attractions.)
I'd love for a manager to come in and have the balls to play him deeper.
He has insane creativity and the deeper he gets the less Hollywood final balls he will try to do. His work rate in deeper positions would be great too rather than him trying to press the GK even further forward than Hojlund.
I know people say he loses the ball too much, but i disagree & believe that's an aspect coming from him trying to play like Ozil from Ozil's position without being Ozil himself.
He has insane creativity and the deeper he gets the less Hollywood final balls he will try to do. His work rate in deeper positions would be great too rather than him trying to press the GK even further forward than Hojlund.
I know people say he loses the ball too much, but i disagree & believe that's an aspect coming from him trying to play like Ozil from Ozil's position without being Ozil himself.