[SAF is the GOAT]

Something something “stat padder”

Can you please describe what is really a "stat padder" ? I don't familiar with the term

 

[Deery]

73% passing accuracy out of 56 passes. Just 6% less than McTom.

Or do you prefer Sancho with 90% rate from 11 passes, with 0 chance created??

So he did lose the ball 15 times then.

 

[Brwned]

Yup for those kind of games, we need a peak Messi or something right?

Or just someone who can help us control games, direct the play and spread confidence and composure, someone who can recognise when the rhythm’s not quite right and we need to shore up the foundations before going for the kill. Bruno is absolutely terrible at that, so it is true that when the opposition isn’t vulnerable to the bulldozer approach, when they are good at capitalising on loose passing and picking us off on the counter, he often hurts more than he helps.

That’s particularly obvious in big PL games and European games. He’s not going to get the ball often enough to lose it so frequently, and he’s not nimble enough to create those chances in crowded areas against elite players, so he’s often really easily nullified in those games and he becomes increasingly careless, always increasing the odds of the other team controlling the game. In this types of game, control tends to matter more than volume of chances because it’s so tight.

And because our flow is so heavily built around him going for the spectacular, the other attackers are faced with the choice of always going for the spectacular themselves or simply being a foil for him. It doesn’t allow us to get any rhythm. So when top teams mark him out of the game, as they often do, we look even more clueless than we otherwise would because we’re so unused to playing collaborative, coherent football with patient build up.

It’s weird that people can’t accept Bruno’s flaws when they’re staring you in the face. Some people weigh up his pros and cons differently, some people value risk taking activity and spectacular passes more than others, and so you can reasonably say he’s a brilliant player while acknowledging those faults. Other people prefer poise, patience, control etc. so his cons can outweigh his pros. But to shoot down any criticism of his flaws is just a bit silly. They’re there in literally every game.

 

[Shane88]

Bizarre player. He can struggle to pass the ball 10 yards for 10 minutes and then pull off an assist like the one for Rashford.

 

[The United]

Or just someone who can help us control games, direct the play and spread confidence and composure, someone who can recognise when the rhythm’s not quite right and we need to shore up the foundations before going for the kill. Bruno is absolutely terrible at that, so it is true that when the opposition isn’t vulnerable to the bulldozer approach, when they are good at capitalising on loose passing and picking us off on the counter, he often hurts more than he helps.

That’s particularly obvious in big PL games and European games. He’s not going to get the ball often enough to lose it so frequently, and he’s not nimble enough to create those chances in crowded areas against elite players, so he’s often really easily nullified in those games and he becomes increasingly careless, always increasing the odds of the other team controlling the game. In this types of game, control tends to matter more than volume of chances because it’s so tight.

And because our flow is so heavily built around him going for the spectacular, the other attackers are faced with the choice of always going for the spectacular themselves or simply being a foil for him. It doesn’t allow us to get any rhythm. So when top teams mark him out of the game, as they often do, we look even more clueless than we otherwise would because we’re so unused to playing collaborative, coherent football with patient build up.

It’s weird that people can’t accept Bruno’s flaws when they’re staring you in the face. Some people weigh up his pros and cons differently, some people value risk taking activity and spectacular passes more than others, and so you can reasonably say he’s a brilliant player while acknowledging those faults. Other people prefer poise, patience, control etc. so his cons can outweigh his pros. But to shoot down any criticism of his flaws is just a bit silly. They’re there in literally every game.

It is not even that. Any of Bruno's fan will say that he can be wasteful.

But, the shite stuff like we would be better without him is just stupid. Not like we can replace with someone else that is even close to his productivity.

And, he is exactly the perfect type of playermaker for the likes of Rashford. So, his stats will even get better. Which means we should win more.

 

[Isotope]

Or just someone who can help us control games, direct the play and spread confidence and composure, someone who can recognise when the rhythm’s not quite right and we need to shore up the foundations before going for the kill. Bruno is absolutely terrible at that, so it is true that when the opposition isn’t vulnerable to the bulldozer approach, when they are good at capitalising on loose passing and picking us off on the counter, he often hurts more than he helps.

That’s particularly obvious in big PL games and European games. He’s not going to get the ball often enough to lose it so frequently, and he’s not nimble enough to create those chances in crowded areas against elite players, so he’s often really easily nullified in those games and he becomes increasingly careless, always increasing the odds of the other team controlling the game. In this types of game, control tends to matter more than volume of chances because it’s so tight.

And because our flow is so heavily built around him going for the spectacular, the other attackers are faced with the choice of always going for the spectacular themselves or simply being a foil for him. It doesn’t allow us to get any rhythm. So when top teams mark him out of the game, as they often do, we look even more clueless than we otherwise would because we’re so unused to playing collaborative, coherent football with patient build up.

It’s weird that people can’t accept Bruno’s flaws when they’re staring you in the face. Some people weigh up his pros and cons differently, some people value risk taking activity and spectacular passes more than others, and so you can reasonably say he’s a brilliant player while acknowledging those faults. Other people prefer poise, patience, control etc. so his cons can outweigh his pros. But to shoot down any criticism of his flaws is just a bit silly. They’re there in literally every game.

I don't think anyone says he's without flaw. But to kinda infer he had a shite game or he's the one holding the Team back to play cohesively like every other big team, is weird.

We have Fred and McTom who had about 80% passing rate while attempted feck all chance.

 

[Brwned]

I don't think anyone says he's without flaw. But to kinda infer he had a shite game or he's the one holding the Team back to play cohesively like every other big team, is weird.

I think he had a good game. Wenger’s description seems pretty apt. I also don’t think he is the one holding us back from playing that way. But the way he plays, the role he occupies, seems like an obvious factor in it. That’s the thing, people are stripping out the nuance, pointing to his weaknesses and the implications of them are always interpreted as an attack. Most people aren’t trying to be so black and white, but people get so defensive that it becomes an increasingly polarised discussion and skews perceptions.

 

[Isotope]

I think he had a good game. Wenger’s description seems pretty apt. I also don’t think he is the one holding us back from playing that way. But the way he plays, the role he occupies, seems like an obvious factor in it. That’s the thing, people are stripping out the nuance, pointing to his weaknesses and the implications of them are always interpreted as an attack.

Maybe it's just the way some convey their message, that make it sounds like an attack. 100% agreed he could be better on passing. But focus on his weakness then conclude he should be off the Team, is worrying. It's like Liverpool fans complain that Torres didn't help the build up, but only stretching opponents defence with his pace while scoring goals.

I'm just saying that Bruno should be last thing we worry about from this Team. Porous defence and midfield, and wasteful attack are main problems need to be fixed first and foremost.

 

[Waynne]

Bizarre player. He can struggle to pass the ball 10 yards for 10 minutes and then pull off an assist like the one for Rashford.

Needs to be reigned in a bit I feel.

At times he shows a complete lack of composure and almost looks like he hits passes out of frustration which usually end up with the opposition.
It's just like someone else mentioned before: With Bruno he's either brilliant or complete crap. There's no middle ground and at times we just need him to hold onto the ball, let the team settle into a shape before starting the next phase.

Also when he starts to run out of position to try and press then throws his arms up when he's the only one doing it, I almost feel I can put my foot through my TV.

 

[The United]

Needs to be reigned in a bit I feel.

At times he shows a complete lack of composure and almost looks like he hits passes out of frustration which usually end up with the opposition.
It's just like someone else mentioned before: With Bruno he's either brilliant or complete crap. There's no middle ground and at times we just need him to hold onto the ball, let the team settle into a shape before starting the next phase.

Also when he starts to run out of position to try and press then throws his arms up when he's the only one doing it, I almost feel I can put my foot through my TV.

Because he presses or other players don't?

 

[SCP]

Or just someone who can help us control games, direct the play and spread confidence and composure, someone who can recognise when the rhythm’s not quite right and we need to shore up the foundations before going for the kill.

I mean, the type of player you are describing is the type of player he isn’t and the player he will never be.

You’re presuming he should be that player, but maybe that type of role should be addressed by other player.

And I mean, if the problem of a non functioning collective is only related to a so called “stat padder”by some, then explain to me what was that beautiful midfield that controlled the rhythm of play before he arrived?

Basically what you’re asking him is to be a non risk taker, which is basically to tell him to stop in what he is good at.

Maybe the problem is above player X or Y. A coach who finds the right roles for the players he has I would say.

With that said some of the points you made might be valid, but then we should know what he particularly is asked to do?

Is it to control games? To be a permanent risk taker?Does the technical staff after the games tell him to stop certain aspects who might unbalance the team?

Don’t know, but the issues of this team are more or less the same even before he arrived, and not a single player.

 

[Solskjær's Red Army]

well if his numbers are great then he is doing better than anyone else. Big numbers mean that he is effective. We would be a much worse team without him and probably wouldn’t of even got champions league the last two seasons.

he is our Best player.



your joking right? White text?

He's not our best player. He's our player with the best stats.

Surely the most idiotic phrase in football. Padding stats with goals and assists. What possible use could that be?!?

Yeah because higher number of goals and assists for an individual = success for the team That kind of thinking got Juve to buy Ronaldo. And how did that turn out? They couldn't wait to get rid of him. Because Ronaldo didn't make them a better team no matter how many he scored or assisted. Why Klopp kept Firmino in the side despite him scoring only 9 goals in 38 PL games? Or is he also an idiot?

Where do you reckon we’d be had he gone to spurs instead?

Well said. Incredible to read some of the nonsense written about a player with his production. Fickle fans.

There's nothing fickle about saying Bruno is a stat padder as I've been saying it since he came here. Some fans endlessly worship him and pretend that he's our saviour or something but I don't buy that. His performances are poor to average most of the time, his pressing game is insufficient, he doesn't control the games like a top midfielder does, he's so poor in the big games etc. but he gets on the scoresheet so he must be a top player. Feck that.

Also how did it go for you guys in the Euros? Did you like the Portuguese team with him or without him more? What was the reason he was dropped to the bench for the remaining games after Portuguese NT failed miserably against Germany? Why didn't Fernando Santos want to make use of his beautiful goals & assists? That's not a sign of a truly top player is it?

 

[The United]

He's not our best player. He's our player with the best stats.



Yeah because higher number of goals and assists for an individual = success for the team That kind of thinking got Juve to buy Ronaldo. And how did that turn out? They couldn't wait to get rid of him. Because Ronaldo didn't make them a better team no matter how many he scored or assisted. Why Klopp kept Firmino in the side despite him scoring only 9 goals in 38 PL games? Or is he also an idiot?





There's nothing fickle about saying Bruno is a stat padder as I've been saying it since he came here. Some fans endlessly worship him and pretend that he's our saviour or something but I don't buy that. His performances are poor to average most of the time, his pressing game is insufficient, he doesn't control the games like a top midfielder does, he's so poor in the big games etc. but he gets on the scoresheet so he must be a top player. Feck that.

Also how did it go for you guys in the Euros? Did you like the Portuguese team with him or without him more? What was the reason he was dropped to the bench for the remaining games after Portuguese NT failed miserably against Germany? Why didn't Fernando Santos want to make use of his beautiful goals & assists? That's not a sign of a truly top player is it?

Well, his stats did turn out good for RM though. I mean if you argue like that. You need both and we have one already. Why take it away to get better at the other?

And, Bruno is not exactly the reason why we don't play better as a team. Right now, our defense is a mess with or without Bruno's style of play. But, without his stats, we could have been worse.

And, accusing fans worshipping players and fan boy shit, well wtf are we watching a sport team with sport players in it for? Strange shit. It is not like you don't go overboard with the likes of Pogba anyway.

 

[Waynne]

Because he presses or other players don't?

Because he presses or starts to press and hoping others will follow. No idea how we're meant to setup for pressing but when he does he leaves holes in midfield that no one else fills because the rest don't press along with him. You'll have maybe Greenwood and one or two other players press but it needs to be done as a team or it doesn't work.

Question that needs to be asked is if Bruno is doing this of his own will or is he instructed by the coaches. I'm sure he'd do wonders in a high pressing setup but that's not what this current United team is.

 

[Brwned]

I mean, the type of player you are describing is the type of player he isn’t and the player he will never be.

You’re presuming he should be that player, but maybe that type of role should be addressed by other player.

And I mean, if the problems of a non functioning collective is only related to a so called “stat padder”by some, then explain to me what was that beautiful midfield that controlled the rhythm of play before he arrived?

Basically what you’re asking him is to be a non risk taker, which is basically to tell him to stop in what he is good at.

Maybe the problem is above player X or Y. A coach who finds the right roles for the players he has I would say.

No I’m not saying he should be that player. I’m just saying that you don’t need to be Messi to be more effective than Bruno in these situations. That’s not what people are expecting.

Playing against a team that suffocates space and defends resolutely is difficult for anyone. But there’s a wide gap between Bruno in that situation and Messi, and there’s lots of people in that continuum that would be more effective. Those players would also be less effective than Bruno in exploiting the space in high tempo games, generally. And there’s some players who find a better balance across both situations, who are just better players, like de Bruyne.

I was just saying that his argument was a straw man. But again that gets turned into something else because people are so defensive of Bruno.

 

[The United]

Because he presses or starts to press and hoping others will follow. No idea how we're meant to setup for pressing but when he does he leaves holes in midfield that no one else fills because the rest don't press along with him. You'll have maybe Greenwood and one or two other players press but it needs to be done as a team or it doesn't work.

Question that needs to be asked is if Bruno is doing this of his own will or is he instructed by the coaches. I'm sure he'd do wonders in a high pressing setup but that's not what this current United team is.

Yeah that question.

But you are angry at him for pressing anyway right? or angry at someone or some players for not pressing along with him? Or the coaches or the set up?

Just trying to figure out if you are confused yourself.

 

[The United]

No I’m not saying he should be that player. I’m just saying that you don’t need to be Messi to be more effective than Bruno in these situations. That’s not what people are expecting.

Playing against a team that suffocates space and defends resolutely is difficult for anyone. But there’s a wide gap between Bruno in that situation and Messi, and there’s lots of people in that continuum that would be more effective. Those players would also be less effective than Bruno in exploiting the space in high tempo games, generally. And there’s some players who find a better balance across both situations, who are just better players, like de Bruyne.

I was just saying that his argument was a straw man. But again that gets turned into something else because people are so defensive of Bruno.

The Messi thing was a tongue in cheeks because people are not happy ( including me at times) with the way the team is performing. So, they would just attack every player they see nowadays. I was tired of that and was playing along.

I thought who the fck would take that seriously? And I was surprised.

 

[Brwned]

Maybe it's just the way some convey their message, that make it sounds like an attack. 100% agreed he could be better on passing. But focus on his weakness then conclude he should be off the Team, is worrying. It's like Liverpool fans complain that Torres didn't help the build up, but only stretching opponents defence with his pace while scoring goals.

I'm just saying that Bruno should be last thing we worry about from this Team. Porous defence and midfield, and wasteful attack are main problems need to be fixed first and foremost.

I don't really see how the Torres point follows on from your previous one, but let's go with it. There are lots of attackers who have been individually great, but ultimately held the team back in one way or another.

Riquelme's the classic #10 example, he was brilliant if everything was built around him, but useless when it wasn't, and building that team around him meant the team had to limit itself in other ways. So there's obvious precedent for someone in Bruno's position, it's not a ludicrous idea, it's just a question of evaluating how well Bruno fits that role.

Stepping beyond #10s there are notable examples at United of great individual performances that limited the team, Ibrahimovic is the main example in recent times, many people argued the same for Berbatov in his best season, and it was the defining narrative of the Ruud transition. They were doing their jobs well, but to do their jobs well the team had to play a certain way, and there's reason to believe playing that way led to them underperforming as a team overall. Ruud's transition being the most striking example of that. So again there's precedence of an inferior player making an inferior individual contribution (Saha), but allowing the team to play with more fluidity, coherence, etc. which ultimately led to meaningful team success.

The other element in it is not whether it limits what you're able to do now, but whether it limits what you're able to think about doing. Guardiola is the obvious example of a manager who rejects exceptional individuals because they won't fit into a system. If you've already got an icon in the team, one who is delivering individually, it's hard to conceive of playing without them, and thus playing a different way. The system already benefits them, and you don't want to harm them, so you limit the things that you can tweak and so you limit the possibilities for progression. At a time where people care more about systems than the past, a lot of people weigh that up.

All of these things plausibly apply here. You don't need to think they do apply to acknowledge that there is legitimacy to the belief that it might apply, because there are some similarities, there is some precedence. That isn't an attack, it's just a question, a concern.

 

[SCP]

No I’m not saying he should be that player. I’m just saying that you don’t need to be Messi to be more effective than Bruno in these situations. That’s not what people are expecting.

But I am not saying you’re entirely wrong. Look the type of player for those situations would be a Scholes like, and since he is a Portuguese guy, and without anybody laughing, would be a prime Moutinho, which is exactly the anti stat padder because he never scored goals and didn’t made a lot of assists.

And there’s some players who find a better balance across both situations, who are just better players, like de Bruyne.

But De Bruyne being a better player doesn’t involve some of the nonsense you read here on some posts like anyone would do those passes, or assists don’t count because he was or is horrendous because he isn’t the perfect midfielder for that type of game.

I cannot admit when he goes to the pitch he doesn’t try do to the role he is asked to do by Ole, I just think some posts here go overboard regarding his qualities or weaknesses.

The problem is structural, this isn’t a single player issue, or do you believe a better coaching staff wouldn’t find the right balance for the players in this squad?

It’s a question of balance here, no need to be labelled as the saviour or the owner of the team, but not scapegoated because he doesn’t fit the imaginary Messi or De Bruyne type of player.

He is what he is, and the responsability of taking the best from the players at his disposal are above him.

Next game is against one of the best collective sides in football, if things go wrong as expected to happen maybe the problems won’t be only related to some players being crap.

 

[The United]

I don't really see how the Torres point follows on from your previous one, but let's go with it.

There are lots of attackers who have been individually great, but ultimately held the team back in one way or another. Riquelme's the classic #10 example, he was brilliant if everything was built around him, but useless when it wasn't, and building that team around him meant the team had to limit itself in other ways. So there's obvious precedent for someone in Bruno's position, it's not a ludicrous idea, it's just a question of evaluating how well Bruno fits that role.

Stepping beyond #10s there are notable examples at United of great individual performances that limited the team, Ibrahimovic is the main example in recent times, many people argued the same for Berbatov in his best season, and it was the defining narrative of the Ruud transition. They were doing their jobs well, but to do their jobs well the team had to play a certain way, and there's reason to believe playing that way led to them underperforming as a team overall. Ruud's transition being the most striking example of that. So again there's precedence of an inferior player making an inferior individual contribution (Saha), but allowing the team to play with more fluidity, coherence, etc.

The other element in it is not whether it limits what you're able to do now, but whether it limits what you're able to think about doing. Guardiola is the obvious example of a manager who rejects exceptional individuals because they won't fit into a system. If you've already got an icon in the team, one who is delivering individually, it's hard to conceive of playing without them, and thus playing a different way. The system already benefits them, and you don't want to harm them, so you limit the things that you can tweak and so you limit the possibilities for progression.

All of these things plausibly apply here. You don't to think they do apply to acknowdge that people believe it might apply because there are some similarities, there is some precedence. That isn't an attack, it's just a question, a concern.

I don't agree with it. Both Ronaldo and Rooney were already getting better. Ruud was out due to pissing off a lot of players including SAF. I really doubt it had mainly to do with he was holding the team back with his good output. It was more to do with personality stuff.

Saha didn't even play that much to contribute the so called team flow back then. Ronaldo and Rooney played very well with or without him in the team.

Comparing Bruno situation with Saha is that there were already 2 world class players plus Scholes, Giggs and Carrick contributing the end results while we have almost no one that can create chances as much. And, take out Bruno and Pogba is the closet to him and not sure how many people would trust Pogba there for long term.

 

[The United]

But I am not saying you’re entirely wrong. Look the type of player for those situations would be a Scholes like, and since he is a Portuguese guy, and without anybody laughing, would be a prime Moutinho, which is exactly the anti stat padder because he never scored goals and didn’t made a lot of assists.


But De Bruyne being a better player doesn’t involve some of the nonsense you read here on some posts like anyone would do those passes, or assists don’t count because he was or is horrendous because he isn’t the perfect midfielder for that type of game.

I cannot admit when he goes to the pitch he doesn’t try do to the role he is asked to do by Ole, I just think some posts here go overboard regarding his qualities or weaknesses.

The problem is structural, this isn’t a single player issue, or do you believe a better coaching staff wouldn’t find the right balance for the players in this squad?

It’s a question of balance here, no need to be labelled as the saviour or the owner of the team, but not scapegoated because he doesn’t fit the imaginary Messi or De Bruyne type of player.

He is what he is, and the responsability of taking the best from the players at his disposal are above him.

Next game is against one of the best collective sides in football, if things go wrong as expected to happen maybe the problems won’t be only related to some players being crap.

And, it is not like De Bruyne or players like him (who?) come to United and just do that realistically.

People laughing at that kind of stuff are obviously fan boys of players that they are cheering for.

 

[Brwned]

But I am not saying you’re entirely wrong. Look the type of player for those situations would be a Scholes like, and since he is a Portuguese guy, and without anybody laughing, would be a prime Moutinho, which is exactly the anti stat padder because he never scored goals and didn’t made a lot of assists.


But De Bruyne being a better player doesn’t involve some of the nonsense you read here on some posts like anyone would do those passes, or assists don’t count because he was or is horrendous because he isn’t the perfect midfielder for that type of game.

I cannot admit when he goes to the pitch he doesn’t try do to the role he is asked to do by Ole, I just think some posts here go overboard regarding his qualities or weaknesses.

The problem is structural, this isn’t a single player issue, or do you believe a better coaching staff wouldn’t find the right balance for the players in this squad?

It’s a question of balance here, no need to be labelled as the saviour or the owner of the team, but not scapegoated because he doesn’t fit the imaginary Messi or De Bruyne type of player.

He is what he is, and the responsability of taking the best from the players at his disposal are above him.

Next game is against one of the best collective sides in football, if things go wrong as expected to happen maybe the problems won’t be only related to some players being crap.

I don't think a better coaching staff would find the right balance for the players in this squad, no. It wasn't designed with balance in mind, a lot of it was driven by commercial and reputational motivations and the coach just has to figure it out from there. I think even the best team we have would be fundamentally imbalanced. Bruno's not the biggest part of that but he is a part, and if we were to shape the team differently and get a coach that's more focused on systems, it seems possible to me that Bruno would create some problems there.

Certainly there's some people in here that are engaged in some weird Pogba vs. Bruno fanboy fight so just denigrate what Bruno does. There are a few who just don't really like his style, in the same way there were some people that really hated Nani for his recklessness, while others really hated Valencia for his conservatism. There are always people at the extremes and people who have just got way too invested in the conversation, to the point where mostly what they're saying is just designed to highlight why they're "right" over and over again.

Most people aren't in that bucket and I don't think it's really helpful to interpret criticism of him as coming from the same place. It kills any opportunity for actual discussion, it just becomes a weird point scoring exercise.

I don't agree with it. Both Ronaldo and Rooney were already getting better. Ruud was out due to pissing off a lot of players including SAF. I really doubt it had mainly to do with he was holding the team back with his good output. It was more to do with personality stuff.

Saha didn't even play that much to contribute the so called team flow back then. Ronaldo and Rooney played very well with or without him in the team.

Comparing Bruno situation with Saha is that there were already 2 world class players plus Scholes, Giggs and Carrick contributing the end results while we have almost no one that can create chances as much. And, take out Bruno and Pogba is the closet to him and not sure how many people would trust Pogba there for long term.

Personally I have high hopes for Greenwood and Sancho blossoming in much the same way so I don't think the parallels are that different. But then predictions about the future are always a bit silly. I didn't think Ronaldo would transform into what he did, and it's possible Sancho will crash and burn.

 

[SCP]

And, it is not like De Bruyne or players like him (who?) come to United and just do that realistically.

People laughing at that kind of stuff are obviously fan boys of players that they are cheering for.

I can relate to some of the critics made, and doesn’t matter the stats, even ridiculous stuff like saying everyone would pick that first pass for Rashford or whatever.

The thing here is,will he ever be the type of midfielder who will have high passing accuracy stats?

Probably not, but will he be one of those who will create more chances? Probably yes.

The issue here is the years keep going and there’s always new heroes here, and the next year they become villains.

Maybe the problem hasn’t been only the quality of the players. With this I am not saying it’s all Ole fault and he is the most incompetent manager in the League.

 

[El Jefe]

Or just someone who can help us control games, direct the play and spread confidence and composure, someone who can recognise when the rhythm’s not quite right and we need to shore up the foundations before going for the kill. Bruno is absolutely terrible at that, so it is true that when the opposition isn’t vulnerable to the bulldozer approach, when they are good at capitalising on loose passing and picking us off on the counter, he often hurts more than he helps.

That’s particularly obvious in big PL games and European games. He’s not going to get the ball often enough to lose it so frequently, and he’s not nimble enough to create those chances in crowded areas against elite players, so he’s often really easily nullified in those games and he becomes increasingly careless, always increasing the odds of the other team controlling the game. In this types of game, control tends to matter more than volume of chances because it’s so tight.

And because our flow is so heavily built around him going for the spectacular, the other attackers are faced with the choice of always going for the spectacular themselves or simply being a foil for him. It doesn’t allow us to get any rhythm. So when top teams mark him out of the game, as they often do, we look even more clueless than we otherwise would because we’re so unused to playing collaborative, coherent football with patient build up.

It’s weird that people can’t accept Bruno’s flaws when they’re staring you in the face. Some people weigh up his pros and cons differently, some people value risk taking activity and spectacular passes more than others, and so you can reasonably say he’s a brilliant player while acknowledging those faults. Other people prefer poise, patience, control etc. so his cons can outweigh his pros. But to shoot down any criticism of his flaws is just a bit silly. They’re there in literally every game.

Couldn't have said it better.

His style really is a worry for the team. Some people think his stats justify the approach but that ignores the impact on the team and especially our performances in the big PL and European games which you pointed out.

I'm happy with creative players being given the license to try things but Bruno goes well beyond what should be an acceptable level of risk for a top side.

 

[SCP]

I don't think a better coaching staff would find the right balance for the players in this squad, no. It wasn't designed with balance in mind, a lot of it was driven by commercial and reputational motivations and the coach just has to figure it out from there. I think even the best team we have would be fundamentally imbalanced. Bruno's not the biggest part of that but he is a part, and if we were to shape the team differently and get a coach that's more focused on systems, it seems possible to me that Bruno would create some problems there.

Well, but better coaching staffs would minimise some of those problems, or if they didn’t followed the rules perhaps they would play less.

Certainly there's some people in here that are engaged in some weird Pogba vs. Bruno fanboy fight so just denigrate what Bruno does.

And vice versa. The ideal world would be both being instrumental in the team. By the way I am not saying everything should be designed around Bruno, he has to fit in the system and the system has to maximise his attributes or minimize his flaws. But if it was so easy any technical staff would be competent to do that.

Anyway I will repeat the same thing again. The problems in this team are more than a single player. And this isn’t a attack on Ole, but comparing to other teams with the same resources some questions need to be addressed.

 

[The United]

I don't think a better coaching staff would find the right balance for the players in this squad, no. It wasn't designed with balance in mind, a lot of it was driven by commercial and reputational motivations and the coach just has to figure it out from there. I think even the best team we have would be fundamentally imbalanced. Bruno's not the biggest part of that but he is a part, and if we were to shape the team differently and get a coach that's more focused on systems, it seems possible to me that Bruno would create some problems there.

Certainly there's some people in here that are engaged in some weird Pogba vs. Bruno fanboy fight so just denigrate what Bruno does. There are a few who just don't really like his style, in the same way there were some people that really hated Nani for his recklessness, while others really hated Valencia for his conservatism. There are always people at the extremes and people who have just got way too invested in the conversation, to the point where mostly what they're saying is just designed to highlight why they're "right" over and over again.

Most people aren't in that bucket and I don't think it's really helpful to interpret criticism of him as coming from the same place. It kills any opportunity for actual discussion, it just becomes a weird point scoring exercise.



Personally I have high hopes for Greenwood and Sancho blossoming in much the same way so I don't think the parallels are that different. But then predictions about the future are always a bit silly. I didn't think Ronaldo would transform into what he did, and it's possible Sancho will crash and burn.

It is different because the positions we are talking about are different. Greenwood and Sancho can be comparable as good up and coming players with Rooney and Ronaldo in that sense.

But, Rooney and Ronaldo were backed by 3 ( I put giggs in it) of the best creators of their era from the middle for them who could ping the ball to everywhere from anywhere. But, our current CM?

None of Sancho or Greenwood could carry the ball like Rooney and Ronaldo from deep (at least not yet) to offset the weakness of our current CM.

 

[Brwned]

Well, but better coaching staffs would minimise some of those problems, or if they didn’t followed the rules perhaps they would play less.



And vice versa. The ideal world would be both being instrumental in the team. By the way I am not saying everything should be designed around Bruno, he has to fit in the system and the system has to maximise his attributes or minimize his flaws. But if it was so easy any technical staff would be competent to do that.

Certainly a better coach would improve things, I just don't think balance is a real option for this team. An unbalanced team reliant on individual brilliance is what Bruno's comfortable with, it's what Ole's comfortable with, but I think even if you had a more system-focused manager with this team, this year, they'd just give in and do the same thing anyway. Or maybe they just wouldn't join.

With the raw materials that we have I'd be more inclined just to go down the Galacticos route, and getting that right wasn't so much about getting the right system or even the right manager, it was mostly about having a couple of players at the other end that could compensate just enough for the imbalances.

I'd have gotten rid of Ole a year ago but I don't think he's the reason for us looking like this. The squad just wasn't thoughtfully designed and that would've been (has been) true irrespective of the manager. But I reckon Zidane could just about make it work, with his Makelélé.

 

[SCP]

An unbalanced team reliant on individual brilliance is what Bruno's comfortable with

This particular point is evident now, but we don’t have the other side of the equation solved.

Which is, could he fit in on a balanced and functional system oriented team? I presume some of his “numbers” could go down, but I refuse to think he simply wouldn’t fit on the right system. At least if I have the option to see it.

I repeat, it’s not entirely Ole fault, and sacking him now won’t solve anything.

 

[lloyd2wayne]

Madness that he finishes that with two assists. He missed some really simple basic through balls. Such a weird player. I love him and he was actually better when Pogba comes on today and then other games it’s just this wide open space, either sloppy careless play or overproduced moves. We’ve needed to find the sweet spot and he did by the end. I’m so confused by this team

How is it madness he’s finishing with two assists? Do you even watch the game? He should have had more.
1. One to Rashford right before half time that hit the post.
2. Through ball to Ronaldo one on one with the keeper, saved.
3. Hit a perfect corner to Maguire head that forced a diving save from the keeper. Maguire barely hits the target so that should tell you how good the corner was
4. He himself should have a had a goal when he shot with his left foot forcing a save from the keeper.
5. The through ball cross that Rashford should have scored but Demiral blocked, he was flagged offside but was certainly on.

All this besides having two assists. He went up 100x in the second half, everything great went through him. Yes in the first half he was very poor. He was mostly perfect second half. He might have misplaced one or two passes but he was top notch.

 

[Teja]

I thought he was incredible in the second half. The first half there was AFAIK one through ball that got intercepted and two where the weight of the pass was wrong, but other than that he's spectacular.

We've also missed the Bruno -> Rashford ball. He was making do with Greenwood's runs on the right, but you need Rashford's pace to make that work against teams that press high.

Re: his "wastefulness": This is why I worry about having coaches like Ten Hag. Reining him in is going to turn him into half the player he is. We see how bad he is for Portugal in a slightly deeper role. I'm sure he would be incredible for a team like Pool who can get to those second balls when he gives them away. Guardiola on the other hand would probably bench him after two games.

 

[The United]

I thought he was incredible in the second half. The first half there was AFAIK one through ball that got intercepted and two where the weight of the pass was wrong, but other than that he's spectacular.

We've also missed the Bruno -> Rashford ball. He was making do with Greenwood's runs on the right, but you need Rashford's pace to make that work against teams that press high.

Re: his "wastefulness": This is why I worry about having coaches like Ten Hag. Reining him in is going to turn him into half the player he is. We see how bad he is for Portugal in a slightly deeper role. I'm sure he would be incredible for a team like Pool who can get to those second balls when he gives them away. Guardiola on the other hand would probably bench him after two games.

Funny thing was though through balls to Ronaldo and Rashford in 2nd half happened because basically he was playing "high".

I am not against him playing deep at times. But, he is best when he plays high up due to his short passes being more consistent than long passes.

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

Could have easily had a hattrick of assists yesterday, and spectacular ones, too.

He takes risks and loses the ball, but he creates most of our chances. And covers ground like a madman.

 

[Martial]

Bruno should have had about 5 assists in that game. Genuinely. And he works harder than everyone to boot.

People are idiots.

We need to replace 5 other positions in the team sufficiently before we even begin to think about him.

 

[mav_9me]

How is it madness he’s finishing with two assists? Do you even watch the game? He should have had more.
1. One to Rashford right before half time that hit the post.
2. Through ball to Ronaldo one on one with the keeper, saved.
3. Hit a perfect corner to Maguire head that forced a diving save from the keeper. Maguire barely hits the target so that should tell you how good the corner was
4. He himself should have a had a goal when he shit with his left foot forcing a save from the keeper.
5. The through ball cross that Rashford should have scored but Demiral blocked, he was flagged offside but was certainly on.

All this besides having two assists. He went up 100x in the second half, everything great went through him. Yes in the first half he was very poor. He was mostly perfect second half. He might have misplaced one or two passes but he was top notch.

Not to forget the the Fred chance before half time was a give and go with Bruno. So that chance, 5 and 1 were all in last 5 mins of 1st half. Should probably negate any wastefulness before that no?

 

[Terminator]

How is it madness he’s finishing with two assists? Do you even watch the game? He should have had more.
1. One to Rashford right before half time that hit the post.
2. Through ball to Ronaldo one on one with the keeper, saved.
3. Hit a perfect corner to Maguire head that forced a diving save from the keeper. Maguire barely hits the target so that should tell you how good the corner was
4. He himself should have a had a goal when he shit with his left foot forcing a save from the keeper.
5. The through ball cross that Rashford should have scored but Demiral blocked, he was flagged offside but was certainly on.

All this besides having two assists. He went up 100x in the second half, everything great went through him. Yes in the first half he was very poor. He was mostly perfect second half. He might have misplaced one or two passes but he was top notch.

Exactly, it's mind boggling how some can only see his misplaced passes but not the good work. He created so many chances despite being poor in the first half.

 

[roseguy64]

He needs to:
1) Play closer to McFred
2) Play the extra pass
3) Not go for the killer pass every time he gets the ball

This pretty much. I have no problem with him attempting lots of killer passes but I feel he sometimes gets too emotional and plays the obviously wrong pass too often. A few times in this last game where a pass to a player in a good position was on and he tried an outrageous pass. Has to pick the moments better and try to make the simple passes more often.

 

[Isotope]

I don't really see how the Torres point follows on from your previous one, but let's go with it. There are lots of attackers who have been individually great, but ultimately held the team back in one way or another.

Riquelme's the classic #10 example, he was brilliant if everything was built around him, but useless when it wasn't, and building that team around him meant the team had to limit itself in other ways. So there's obvious precedent for someone in Bruno's position, it's not a ludicrous idea, it's just a question of evaluating how well Bruno fits that role.

Stepping beyond #10s there are notable examples at United of great individual performances that limited the team, Ibrahimovic is the main example in recent times, many people argued the same for Berbatov in his best season, and it was the defining narrative of the Ruud transition. They were doing their jobs well, but to do their jobs well the team had to play a certain way, and there's reason to believe playing that way led to them underperforming as a team overall. Ruud's transition being the most striking example of that. So again there's precedence of an inferior player making an inferior individual contribution (Saha), but allowing the team to play with more fluidity, coherence, etc. which ultimately led to meaningful team success.

The other element in it is not whether it limits what you're able to do now, but whether it limits what you're able to think about doing. Guardiola is the obvious example of a manager who rejects exceptional individuals because they won't fit into a system. If you've already got an icon in the team, one who is delivering individually, it's hard to conceive of playing without them, and thus playing a different way. The system already benefits them, and you don't want to harm them, so you limit the things that you can tweak and so you limit the possibilities for progression. At a time where people care more about systems than the past, a lot of people weigh that up.

All of these things plausibly apply here. You don't need to think they do apply to acknowledge that there is legitimacy to the belief that it might apply, because there are some similarities, there is some precedence. That isn't an attack, it's just a question, a concern.

You have valid examples, man. If we have a functional team, we can say that Bruno holds us back. But we don't have functional team. We don't need player who can have 100% completion rate. Player in Bruno's class is still needed to get us through.

Well yeh, KdB is better, but he's not available, and he's one of the best in the last decade or so. That's not a good reference to use.

So are there that many player in Bruno's position who can control the rhythm, have high passing rate while making killer passes, and consistently working his ass off every game??

Also I use Torres as example, because he has a distinct flaw, but it doesn't matter if his contribution outweigh that. RvN was gone just because his legs were gone also. There's no way anyone would take Saha over a peak RvN, or we would have played better.

Berba was an obvious one. He looked out of place in our successful SYSTEM, and couldn't adapt. We were in position where we only needed a striker to take us to greater height. Everything else in that team was almost in good place, already.

With us now? We need to address so many problems, before we need to address Bruno. Just like today. If we had a better attacker, we could have won 3 or 4 goals just from Bruno's alone. That's just outrageous amount of contributions. But we had porous defence, midfield, and lame attack; thus the game looked like could swing either way.

 

[Shimo]

Bizarre player. He can struggle to pass the ball 10 yards for 10 minutes and then pull off an assist like the one for Rashford.

This is what boggles my mind constantly with Bruno. The technique / skill he has but, for a lot of the game he is really loose with his passes - not accurate enough, not weighted well. Today kept thinking we at least should give it a yank Bruno and play a slightly different formation, play with 2 strikers or play 4-3-3 because he was so wayward and sure enough plays a perfect ball for Rashford's goal.

It's not just his passing though, it's also his corners, the man can hit a wicked ball but, right now when he takes a corner, never think we have an opportunity. Surely he could be doing better than the floated balls or ones that seem to hit the defender at the near post more often than not.

 

[RoyKeaneInTurin]

If Bruno can add some method to his chaos, he can still create those 9 big chances without making those simple errors. It's not like his mistakes come from trying to play a glory ball, rather it's mostly because his mind is working faster than his legs and he ends up either overhitting the ball or underhitting the ball. It's not the kind of errors he can't iron out of his game and the manager needs to have a word with him. So many times Bruno is the reason we get hit by a counter and it is usually fatal as he loses the ball in terrible areas. When Bruno plays with responsibility, that is when he is playing more simple passes rather than going all in everytime, there aren't too many with his vision, intelligence and just sheer ability to create a chance out of nothing.

People wanting him to benched or removed are just taking the piss. Without Bruno there is no way we were turning it around. The run for the first goal was premeditated and nobody else but Cavani would even attempt to close down a pass in the area that Bruno did. His pass at the end of the first half was all down to Bruno recovering the ball and played a sumptuous pass to Marcus who should have finished it.

Clearly some people don't understand the meaning of stat padding. When you create 9 big chances out of which we should have scored 4, stat padding is out of question. He was the difference between the two sides last night and when we get a new manager, I expect him to coach Bruno better so he doesn't frustrate himself, his team mates or the fans anymore. It's beyond Ole's abilities right now. But dropping is and should be beyond question. Some of you need to understand football better, because for someone who has played football, Bruno is probably one of the most fun players to watch.

 

[gajender]

Ooof. This one is going to really hurt some armchair pundits in here.

What nonsense just keep burying your head in the sand, the way Fernandes plays just encapsulates Solskjaer reign completely, devoid of any control just moments of individual brilliance interspersed with sloppy ness and lack of even basic plan .
Which is fine If you want to be just top 4 team without actually challenging for anything or winning anything major but this team needs to evolve but I also think it won't happen under Solskjaer and not saying Fernandes is a problem either but we would continue to struggle if we persist in him playing the way he has been playing so far his role need be further defined and bit of discipline won't be out of order.