[roonster09]

So Ole is a sexist, Bruno is a bully, Rashford is fake, Greenwood pretender.

Team full of frauds and cnuts.

 

[Raven]

Maguire's poorest spell was during the restart. He was poor or average. He was very good before lockdown and also very good after first games this season.

Maguire has definitely been influential as well but I was talking specifically about post lockdown last year, only reason I didn't mention him.

 

[Rozay]

Maguire has definitely been influential as well but I was talking specifically about post lockdown last year, only reason I didn't mention him.

.... or the front three?

Martial, in particular, because a lot of people don’t like him, doesn’t get the credit he deserves for last season. Not only post-lockdown - but before it, where he carried our attack alone with Rashford out injured and Greenwood not yet in the team.

 

[Raven]

.... or the front three?

Martial, in particular, because a lot of people don’t like him, doesn’t get the credit he deserves for last season. Not only post-lockdown - but before it, where he carried our attack alone with Rashford out injured and Greenwood not yet in the team.

Go back and read my original reply, I'm in agreement and name check Martial(even pointing out that I felt he was actually the superior player to Bruno during the post lockdown run), Greenwood, Lindelof, Shaw and Pogba as being key contributors during the run in. That's not even to touch on the fantastic work that Fred and Rashford did last season.

 

[Rozay]

Go back and read my original reply, I'm in agreement and name check Martial(even pointing out that I felt he was actually the superior player to Bruno during the post lockdown run), Greenwood, Lindelof, Shaw and Pogba as being key contributors during the run in. That's not even to touch on the fantastic work that Fred and Rashford did last season.

Indeed you did, my apologies.

 

[Raven]

Indeed you did, my apologies.

No problem bud, happens.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

He clearly did. The ball goes over the top of his foot as he tries to control it with the outside. That's a poor touch in anyone's book.

Aye, It's James garbage touch that's the problem, both he and Bruno expected him to control it in front of him/to the right of him... not to the left. Because his touch is so bad it threw them both off.

James' touch was absolutely terrible all game.

 

[roonster09]

Maguire has definitely been influential as well but I was talking specifically about post lockdown last year, only reason I didn't mention him.

Last year post lockdown to the end of the season, Maguire was average. Before the lockdown he was good.

Also Martial alone didn't carry any attack, after Rashford's injury and before Bruno joined, we played 2 league games and didn't score in both games.

 

[huyn]

It's not the first time Bruno has overreacted towards a teammate, he should tone it down especially when he's playing like shit as he's been doing lately. On that particular instance with James, from my neutral point of view, the ball is in James' path initially then he takes that first touch which slightly deviates the ball towards Bruno's path, at this point James recognizes the ball is Bruno's but Bruno doesn't, he's at fault imo but just let the ball die so he can get to yell at James, it's kind of infuriating to see.

 

[Raven]

Last year post lockdown to the end of the season, Maguire was average. Before the lockdown he was good.

Also Martial alone didn't carry any attack, after Rashford's injury and before Bruno joined, we played 2 league games and didn't score in both games.

I agree with all of your points because they all come together to say what I've said. Nobody carries this team, we have good players all over the park who have contributed to both the 3rd place finish last year and our current league position.

 

[Rozay]

Last year post lockdown to the end of the season, Maguire was average. Before the lockdown he was good.

Also Martial alone didn't carry any attack, after Rashford's injury and before Bruno joined, we played 2 league games and didn't score in both games.

Why don’t the games after Bruno came count? After lockdown, he was in a front 3 with Rashford and Greenwood. He went into the lockdown in a front 3 with James and can’t even remember who. Of course, Bruno coming in improved the team, but out of our 3 strikers, Martial carried a lot of weight. He scored the winner away at Chelsea for example, in Bruno’s second game. The fact that Bruno had joined by then doesn’t change that Martial was carrying the front line. He was in excellent form going into lockdown, and Rashford and Greenwood were not in the team.

 

[roonster09]

Why don’t the games after Bruno came count? After lockdown, he was in a front 3 with Rashford and Greenwood. He went into the lockdown in a front 3 with James and can’t even remember who. Of course, Bruno coming in improved the team, but out of our 3 strikers, Martial carried a lot of weight. He scored the winner away at Chelsea for example, in Bruno’s second game. The fact that Bruno had joined by then doesn’t change that Martial was carrying the front line. He was in excellent form going into lockdown, and Rashford and Greenwood were not in the team.

Who said it doesn't count. From the time Bruno signed he was the main player and best player in the team. So no player carried the team or attack.

Out of 3 strikers Martial carried lot of weight? If you mean after Rashford's injury when he was playing with James, then yes. If you mean overall then i disagree with that.

 

[Adam-Utd]

The way he has been playing the past couple of nonthes i would give my right arm to swap him with Lingard

Either clueless or a massive WUM. Probably both.

 

[Rozay]

Who said it doesn't count. From the time Bruno signed he was the main player and best player in the team. So no player carried the team or attack.

Out of 3 strikers Martial carried lot of weight? If you mean after Rashford's injury when he was playing with James, then yes. If you mean overall then i disagree with that.

Well you did, by virtue of drawing some sort of line at the point Bruno joined. Someone mentioned the attackers contribution post-lockdown to add balance to another posters assertion that Bruno single-handedly carried us. I said Martial in particular deserves praise as he carried the attack before lockdown, when two of that front 3 wasn’t even in the team.

From the point Bruno joined, but before lockdown, he added a lot and helped Martial in attack, but he wasn’t better than Martial. And if Martial, our one fit forward, was injured, we would have been fecked. These are our games in that period:

Wolves home (Bruno’s debut, 0-0 draw)
Chelsea away 0-2 win
Brugges away 1-1 draw
Watford home 3-0 win
Everton away 1-1 draw
Man City home 2-0 win

Martial scored the breakthrough goal against Chelsea, scored our only goal away in Brugges, scored a great goal at home vs Watford, and scored the opener against City. In that pre-lockdown run where we picked up key points, Martial was massive for us, and by default of being our only fit senior striker - was our most important player. He was being supported in attack at the time by a Daniel James who had not scored for 4/5 months, Greenwood who had scored one league goal ever, and whoever else we put up front, who also couldn’t hit a barn door.

Post lockdown, the front three were sharing goals around. Bruno was there then, just as he was before lockdown. The main difference was that Rashford and Greenwood were also there and helping massively. Bruno also scored a couple pre lockdown, as he did after lockdown, but he only had one forward ahead of him at the time, and Martial absolutely needed to keep scoring, and he did.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Nah, you're getting me wrong. It was just about the thread. I don't rate Bruno that highly. I'd argue he's probably our second best player, after Rashford. For me Bruno is one of those players that has moments of genius, and enough that he will always be a threat even when he's out of form, but so far we've not seen consistency in his ability to control games which I think you need to be a great player in his position.

Come on Rashford is nowhere near Bruno currently.

 

[roonster09]

Well you did, by virtue of drawing some sort of line at the point Bruno joined. Someone mentioned the attackers contribution post-lockdown to add balance to another posters assertion that Bruno single-handedly carried us. I said Martial in particular deserves praise as he carried the attack before lockdown, when two of that front 3 wasn’t even in the team.

From the point Bruno joined, but before lockdown, he added a lot and helped Martial in attack, but he wasn’t better than Martial. And if Martial, our one fit forward, was injured, we would have been fecked. These are our games in that period:

Wolves home (Bruno’s debut, 0-0 draw)
Chelsea away 0-2 win
Brugges away 1-1 draw
Watford home 3-0 win
Everton away 1-1 draw
Man City home 2-0 win

Martial scored the breakthrough goal against Chelsea, scored our only goal away in Brugges, scored a great goal at home vs Watford, and scored the opener against City. In that pre-lockdown run where we picked up key points, Martial was massive for us, and by default of being our only fit senior striker - was our most important player. He was being supported in attack at the time by a Daniel James who had not scored for 4/5 months, Greenwood who had scored one league goal ever, and whoever else we put up front, who also couldn’t hit a barn door.

Post lockdown, the front three were sharing goals around. Bruno was there then, just as he was before lockdown. The main difference was that Rashford and Greenwood were also there and helping massively. Bruno also scored a couple pre lockdown, as he did after lockdown, but he only had one forward ahead of him at the time, and Martial absolutely needed to keep scoring, and he did.

I said before Bruno joined as your post was "Martial carried attack alone after Rashford injury" when it was obvious Bruno was our best player from the day he joined.

He was better than Martial from day 1, he was better than any ManUtd player from day 1. I don't know whether we would have been fecked if Martial was injured but we were looking midtable before Bruno joined and when Rashford was injured, we struggled to score goals. Everything changed once Bruno was signed.

After Rashford injury or when he didn't start because of injury issues and before Bruno joined.
Vs Liverpool - 2-0 loss
Vs Burnley - 2-0 loss
vs Wolves - 0-0
vs Wolves - 1-0 (only goal scored when Rashford was on the pitch and he assisted the goal)
Tranmere Rovers - 6-0

Also Bruno when he joined, he scored or assisted in almost all games except his first game.
Vs Wolves 0-0
Vs Chelsea - Assisted second goal to make it 2-0
Vs Watford - Scored and assisted
Vs Everton - Scored our only goal
Vs ManCity - Assisted first goal with quickly taken free kick.
Vs Brugge - He didn't start
Vs Brugge - Scored goal

Martial was important player last season, I don't think anyone denies that but he didn't carry the attack or team. Its not coincidence that we looked much better once Bruno was signed.

 

[lsd]

Either clueless or a massive WUM. Probably both.

Ok in the last couple monthes who has performed the better?

 

[Rozay]

I said before Bruno joined as your post was "Martial carried attack alone after Rashford injury" when it was obvious Bruno was our best player from the day he joined.

He was better than Martial from day 1, he was better than any ManUtd player from day 1. I don't know whether we would have been fecked if Martial was injured but we were looking midtable before Bruno joined and when Rashford was injured, we struggled to score goals. Everything changed once Bruno was signed.

After Rashford injury or when he didn't start because of injury issues and before Bruno joined.
Vs Liverpool - 2-0 loss
Vs Burnley - 2-0 loss
vs Wolves - 0-0
vs Wolves - 1-0 (only goal scored when Rashford was on the pitch and he assisted the goal)
Tranmere Rovers - 6-0

Also Bruno when he joined, he scored or assisted in almost all games except his first game.
Vs Wolves 0-0
Vs Chelsea - Assisted second goal to make it 2-0
Vs Watford - Scored and assisted
Vs Everton - Scored our only goal
Vs ManCity - Assisted first goal with quickly taken free kick.
Vs Brugge - He didn't start
Vs Brugge - Scored goal

Martial was important player last season, I don't think anyone denies that but he didn't carry the attack or team. Its not coincidence that we looked much better once Bruno was signed.

Well, it’s clearly all opinions. Your post of course relies upon the things you say are ‘obvious’ being true. But they are not unreasonable opinions.

It isn’t a coincidence at all, because any team that replaced Andreas Pereira with Bruno Fernandes would improve. But that has nothing to do with Martial. He was scoring goals before Rashford got injured too, while Bruno was still in Lisbon. Our front three, which even included James at the time, was receiving huge praise. But we were still too many good players short of being a top team. Replacing Pereira with Bruno made us one good player closer to having a top team, and we improved immediately. We improved further when we took an average Dan James out of the team and put Greenwood in there, and when we put Pogba in midfield.

By the end of the season, we were a much better football team because we had added Bruno, Pogba, Greenwood and Rashford to the team we had in January - and all of those players did their own respective jobs to a high standard, and more importantly - a much higher standard those who were there before. But it was they who did their jobs, Bruno wasn’t doing it for them. Because three of them were already on the books of the club - the lazy narrative is that Bruno carried the team, but in reality, by the time we were getting humbled at home to Burnley, only one of Bruno, Martial, Rashford, Greenwood was in our side, and the three who were in their stead are all average footballers at best. The more good players we had next to each other, the more we improved. We saw that immediately when we just put Bruno alongside Martial. And then one by one, we got better and better. Again, it’s because Bruno was an external solution that his own input is painted as greater than the rest, but I don’t think it was.

 

[roonster09]

Well, it’s clearly all opinions. Your post of course relies upon the things you say are ‘obvious’ being true. But they are not unreasonable opinions.

It isn’t a coincidence at all, because any team that replaced Andreas Pereira with Bruno Fernandes would improve. But that has nothing to do with Martial. He was scoring goals before Rashford got injured too, while Bruno was still in Lisbon. Our front three, which even included James at the time, was receiving huge praise. But we were still too many good players short of being a top team. Replacing Pereira with Bruno made us one good player closer to having a top team, and we improved immediately. We improved further when we took an average Dan James out of the team and put Greenwood in there, and when we put Pogba in midfield.

By the end of the season, we were a much better football team because we had added Bruno, Pogba, Greenwood and Rashford to the team we had in January - and all of those players did their own respective jobs to a high standard, and more importantly - a much higher standard those who were there before. But it was they who did their jobs, Bruno wasn’t doing it for them. Because three of them were already on the books of the club - the lazy narrative is that Bruno carried the team, but in reality, by the time we were getting humbled at home to Burnley, only one of Bruno, Martial, Rashford, Greenwood was in our side, and the three who were in their stead are all average footballers at best. The more good players we had next to each other, the more we improved. We saw that immediately when we just put Bruno alongside Martial. And then one by one, we got better and better. Again, it’s because Bruno was an external solution that his own input is painted as greater than the rest, but I don’t think it was.

You said its a lazy narrative to say Bruno carried the team and then came up with Marital carried our attack.

I don't think anyone (at least without the agenda) argued Martial wasn't important, most people recognize he had very good season. I dont see how it's a lazy narrative when people say Bruno carried the team and then come up with narrative "Martial carried the attack" when he barely scored between the time Rashford was injured and Bruno was signed.

Last season we relied on lot of players, who all stepped up at different times.

We started season poorly when Shaw, Pogba, Martial all got injured, so Rashford was the only decent attacker we had alongside James. Then when Martial came back, Rashford and Martial linked up really well and we won few games. Then Rashford got injured, which means our attack was against back to average with Martial as the only good attacker. When we signed Bruno, he elevated the team with his creativity (or the fact that we signed great player to replace Pereira/Lingard). Then we had Rashford, Shaw, Pogba all back after the lock down, which means we were back to our best 11 and played some very good football.

I don't think any player carried the team. Few of them had better spells than others and IMO Bruno as the best player in the team. Doesn't mean he carried the team or attack.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Ok in the last couple monthes who has performed the better?

Lingards in a purple match playing for his future. Hand on heart you want Lingard over Fernandes?

 

[Rozay]

You said its a lazy narrative to say Bruno carried the team and then came up with Marital carried our attack.

I don't think anyone (at least without the agenda) argued Martial wasn't important, most people recognize he had very good season. I dont see how it's a lazy narrative when people say Bruno carried the team and then come up with narrative "Martial carried the attack" when he barely scored between the time Rashford was injured and Bruno was signed.

Last season we relied on lot of players, who all stepped up at different times.

We started season poorly when Shaw, Pogba, Martial all got injured, so Rashford was the only decent attacker we had alongside James. Then when Martial came back, Rashford and Martial linked up really well and we won few games. Then Rashford got injured, which means our attack was against back to average with Martial as the only good attacker. When we signed Bruno, he elevated the team with his creativity (or the fact that we signed great player to replace Pereira/Lingard). Then we had Rashford, Shaw, Pogba all back after the lock down, which means we were back to our best 11 and played some very good football.

I don't think any player carried the team. Few of them had better spells than others and IMO Bruno as the best player in the team. Doesn't mean he carried the team or attack.

Well it isn’t the same really, it’s simple subtraction. We had 3 quality forwards in Martial, Rashford and Greenwood last season, yet there was one point where we were down to one of them. Thankfully during that spell, that one was doing his job to help us pick up the points needed, which enabled us to eventually scrape i to the top 4 on the final day. Unless of course, we distill it down to a two game window where Martial didn’t score.

Bruno arriving meant that we had some creativity from midfield, where we previously had none. But he wasn’t simultaneously doing that and doing Martial’s job. Martial was doing his own job, which was just as crucial to our gathering of points during that period. Even if Bruno did his job, it wouldn’t be enough in a team with James, Mata and Ighalo ahead of him and McFred behind.

Thankfully, we managed a spell where all of our good players were available and performed their own duties well. And I personally disagree that during that spell, Bruno performed his own better than everyone else. But it’s a view, and not an unreasonable one, given he belongs in that group. But statements that suggest (and there have been plenty over the past year) that he is carrying us is false, to me. To me, he was in our group of good players along with Martial, Rashford, Pogba and Greenwood. But regarding my initial statement, only three of those are forwards, and there was a point where Martial was the only one. It’s not a stretch to say he was carrying us in that area at the time. He certainly wasn’t getting any help from James! Bruno was doing his bit, but that was his bit, the bit that Lingard and Pereira should have been doing - not the bit that Martial should have been doing.

I use the word ‘lazy’ because at a glance, it’s easy for Sky Sports to run their ‘before Bruno and after’ stats etc - but it ignores the fact that most of our other good players were not available before then. Then there was a point where only two were, and both of those two were doing the business. And then 5, and we became good. But the simple line to draw is before and after Bruno.

 

[The United]

Ok in the last couple monthes who has performed the better?

If Lingard keeps playing like that, it would make sense.

But, then how many players played better than Lingard in the past 2 months?

And, don't forget Lingard has had some kind of purple patches under both LVG and Jose.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Yeah, I agree - sell Bruno, we don't need him, just bring back Jlingz.

The stats prove it. And if - which is extremely unlikely - Jlingz doesn't deliver for us, sack Ole and hire Dmoyz.

Or, for that matter, just make Jlingz player-manager. After all, he's only six months old, and he'll only get better with experience.

 

[The United]

It is incredible that United fans want a player like Burno in terms of mentality and capability to match the club's DNA or ambition or whatever. Then, some fans come in and put him down when we have one.

I don't think Bruno is a new King or whatever. But, I think we need a few similar players to start dominating again.

Not that he has not proven himself.

 

[roonster09]

Well it isn’t the same really, it’s simple subtraction. We had 3 quality forwards in Martial, Rashford and Greenwood last season, yet there was one point where we were down to one of them. Thankfully during that spell, that one was doing his job to help us pick up the points needed, which enabled us to eventually scrape i to the top 4 on the final day. Unless of course, we distill it down to a two game window where Martial didn’t score.

When did this happen? When Rashford was injured, we played 2 league games and lost both. Later Bruno joined and our team results changed.

Bruno arriving meant that we had some creativity from midfield, where we previously had none. But he wasn’t simultaneously doing that and doing Martial’s job. Martial was doing his own job, which was just as crucial to our gathering of points during that period. Even if Bruno did his job, it wouldn’t be enough in a team with James, Mata and Ighalo ahead of him and McFred behind.

Thankfully, we managed a spell where all of our good players were available and performed their own duties well. And I personally disagree that during that spell, Bruno performed his own better than everyone else. But it’s a view, and not an unreasonable one, given he belongs in that group. But statements that suggest (and there have been plenty over the past year) that he is carrying us is false, to me. To me, he was in our group of good players along with Martial, Rashford, Pogba and Greenwood. But regarding my initial statement, only three of those are forwards, and there was a point where Martial was the only one. It’s not a stretch to say he was carrying us in that area at the time. He certainly wasn’t getting any help from James! Bruno was doing his bit, but that was his bit, the bit that Lingard and Pereira should have been doing - not the bit that Martial should have been doing.

I use the word ‘lazy’ because at a glance, it’s easy for Sky Sports to run their ‘before Bruno and after’ stats etc - but it ignores the fact that most of our other good players were not available before then. Then there was a point where only two were, and both of those two were doing the business. And then 5, and we became good. But the simple line to draw is before and after Bruno.

Bruno did his job just like how Martial did his. Not sure how Martial carried the attack when Bruno contributed as much if not more in that period.

Bruno was also part of the attack, along with Martial, James and other players. He was attacking mid who contributed in the attacking phase better than any player in our side.

 

[Rozay]

When did this happen? When Rashford was injured, we played 2 league games and lost both. Later Bruno joined and our team results changed.



Bruno did his job just like how Martial did his. Not sure how Martial carried the attack when Bruno contributed as much if not more in that period.

Bruno was also part of the attack, along with Martial, James and other players. He was attacking mid who contributed in the attacking phase better than any player in our side.

It happened in the games I mentioned previously. Rashford wasn’t injured for two games. After Bruno joined, Martial was still our only fit senior forward. He played better once Bruno joined, but that isn’t the point. HE played better. That period in which he played better is a period where he was the only senior forward we have that was available and playing well. This two game period you keep referencing, is a period where he was amongst those not playing well.

If you think Bruno was offensively better than Martial after he joined, but before lockdown - each to their own. He scored three goals, including two penalties, and had 3 assists, one from a corner. Now don’t get me wrong, they all count, but how does that equate to a superior attacking play than Martial’s 4 goals in that period? Goals which include breakthrough/winning goal vs Chelsea and City, and spectacular individual goals against Watford and Brugges? Bruno played well and improved the team in this period, but I cannot compare his form to Martial’s in the two games that he wasn’t at the club that you reference - and in the games he were, they both made equally massive contributions.

 

[roonster09]

It happened in the games I mentioned previously. Rashford wasn’t injured for two games. After Bruno joined, Martial was still our only fit senior forward. He played better once Bruno joined, but that isn’t the point. HE played better. That period in which he played better is a period where he was the only senior forward we have that was available and playing well. This two game period you keep referencing, is a period where he was amongst those not playing well.

If you think Bruno was offensively better than Martial after he joined, but before lockdown - each to their own. He scored three goals, including two penalties, and had 3 assists, one from a corner. Now don’t get me wrong, they all count, but how does that equate to a superior attacking play than Martial’s 4 goals in that period? Goals which include breakthrough/winning goal vs Chelsea and City, and spectacular individual goals against Watford and Brugges? Bruno played well and improved the team in this period, but I cannot compare his form to Martial’s in the two games that he wasn’t at the club that you reference - and in the games he were, they both made equally massive contributions.

He was better because his contribution was as good if not better. He scored first goal vs City, who assisted that? Bruno also assisted 2nd goal vs Chelsea, he scored first goal vs Watford, scored our only goal vs Everton, scored first goal in Brugge second leg.

Also Bruno when he joined, he scored or assisted in almost all games except his first game.
Vs Wolves 0-0
Vs Chelsea - Assisted second goal to make it 2-0
Vs Watford - Scored and assisted
Vs Everton - Scored our only goal
Vs ManCity - Assisted first goal with quickly taken free kick.
Vs Brugge - He didn't start
Vs Brugge - Scored goal

Yes, Martial played better after Bruno joined than the Martial before Bruno joined, that doesn't mean he carried the attack when our attacking mid made as many if not more goal contributions and also created plenty of chances.

You kept on saying Martial carried the attack when Rashford was injured,
After Rashford injury or when he didn't start because of injury issues and before Bruno joined.
Vs Liverpool - 2-0 loss
Vs Burnley - 2-0 loss
vs Wolves - 0-0
vs Wolves - 1-0 (only goal scored when Rashford was on the pitch and he assisted the goal)
Tranmere Rovers - 6-0

These are the games when Rashford was injured or didn't start and all these before Bruno was signed. He didn't contribute much (not his fault obviously as we had very poor creative team) and once Bruno was signed he was better than any player we had. Not sure how that equates to Martial carrying our attack.

Also even if we just agree that Martial played better than Bruno, how does that mean he carried the attack when we have one more player who was equally good?

 

[lsd]

If Lingard keeps playing like that, it would make sense.

But, then how many players played better than Lingard in the past 2 months?

And, don't forget Lingard has had some kind of purple patches under both LVG and Jose.

Exactly which was my point. Off course i wouldn't swap them but based on the past few monthes Bruno has been very poor and Jesse has been excellent.

 

[Eternitiy]

You would have hated our 1999 team. Entire team of "bullies". It's called having a winning mentality imo. Fact is we need more like him.

Disagree. Bruno isn't demonstrating a winning mentality. Leadership isn't screaming at teammates and throwing your arms in the air in disgust whenever a move breaks down. Leadership is encouraging teammates and giving everything to the cause. Bruno has certainly shown that for United in the past, but in the past few months, he is very frustrated, it's alienating him I'm sure from some of his teammates and fans. He needs to reflect on his own game and show some humility. I have faith he can rediscover his form.

 

[Rozay]

He was better because his contribution was as good if not better. He scored first goal vs City, who assisted that? Bruno also assisted 2nd goal vs Chelsea, he scored first goal vs Watford, scored our only goal vs Everton, scored first goal in Brugge second leg.

Also Bruno when he joined, he scored or assisted in almost all games except his first game.
Vs Wolves 0-0
Vs Chelsea - Assisted second goal to make it 2-0
Vs Watford - Scored and assisted
Vs Everton - Scored our only goal
Vs ManCity - Assisted first goal with quickly taken free kick.
Vs Brugge - He didn't start
Vs Brugge - Scored goal

Yes, Martial played better after Bruno joined than the Martial before Bruno joined, that doesn't mean he carried the attack when our attacking mid made as many if not more goal contributions and also created plenty of chances.

You kept on saying Martial carried the attack when Rashford was injured,
After Rashford injury or when he didn't start because of injury issues and before Bruno joined.
Vs Liverpool - 2-0 loss
Vs Burnley - 2-0 loss
vs Wolves - 0-0
vs Wolves - 1-0 (only goal scored when Rashford was on the pitch and he assisted the goal)
Tranmere Rovers - 6-0

These are the games when Rashford was injured or didn't start and all these before Bruno was signed. He didn't contribute much (not his fault obviously as we had very poor creative team) and once Bruno was signed he was better than any player we had. Not sure how that equates to Martial carrying our attack.

Also even if we just agree that Martial played better than Bruno, how does that mean he carried the attack when we have one more player who was equally good?

Martial playing better after Bruno arrived is not relevant to anything. The fact is, he played better, and it is that form that I am considering.

And while I appreciate the stats, I think some differentiation can be applied for the odd penalty kick in comparison to say, the individual goal against Watford and Brugges. Or a Maguire header from a corner at Chelsea. I appreciate he assisted the goal against City. Well done, that was a good contribution I don’t dispute. Bruno’s contribution was vital too. Martial wasn’t the only good player in our team. He was the only good forward, which helped us up unto the point where we had 3.

Martial went through a poor spell before Bruno arrived. And when Bruno arrived, he was no longer going through a poor spell. So if I choose to compare the form of two players within a certain time period - why on Earth would I use games that Martial played before Bruno arrived for comparison?

Again, I say he carried the attack because by way if simple subtraction, he was the one forward available of our three, and he was winning us points. Or if, for this particular conversation, you agree to classify Bruno as a forward, then I’m happy to say the two of them. But even if Bruno wasn’t there and we scored goals from long balls or goal kicks, I wouldn’t be saying Martial and De Gea carried the attack. I was referring to the forwards. I don’t mind including Bruno here too, but the way I see it - we play with three strikers who are there to get us goals first and foremost. All three of them did that post lockdown, and I simply gave a special mention to Martial as he also did it for a bit before lockdown. When the other two were not there. Yes, we had others on the pitch, but in our front line three that we fielded in that spell, Martial was the only performer. Bruno also performed, just as he performed after lockdown, yet was oddly left out when all the comparisons were going round of our forwards vs Liverpool’s forwards etc.

Bruno came to replace Lingard and Pereira. Martial does something different in the side, and can be judged to be playing well or not whether Bruno is in the team, whether Lingard is in the team etc. He played well before Bruno joined last season, and he played well after Bruno joined. His own personal assessment has nothing to do with Bruno. He was playing well, and Bruno was playing well. As was Matic. He was much better once Bruno joined as he had more quality around him. I don’t imply he was some sort of one man team, I simply say that he didn’t have his strike partners for a period and played very well in that spell. This season, he has had them, and Bruno - and not played well. That is a Martial issue, as it is when he is playing well and scoring goals, which he was last season.

 

[Rozay]

Do you know what, @roonster09 - it appears that we are arguing over semantics, not for the first time, so I’ll just say that if you feel Bruno is our best, most important player - that’s fair enough. He’s in a group of players that it would not be unreasonable to say as much about, so it is what it is. If you feel he was our best last season, that’s also fair, as he played well last season.

 

[roonster09]

Martial playing better after Bruno arrived is not relevant to anything. The fact is, he played better, and it is that form that I am considering.

And while I appreciate the stats, I think some differentiation can be applied for the odd penalty kick in comparison to say, the individual goal against Watford and Brugges. Or a Maguire header from a corner at Chelsea. I appreciate he assisted the goal against City. Well done, that was a good contribution I don’t dispute. Bruno’s contribution was vital too. Martial wasn’t the only good player in our team. He was the only good forward, which helped us up unto the point where we had 3.

Martial went through a poor spell before Bruno arrived. And when Bruno arrived, he was no longer going through a poor spell. So if I choose to compare the form of two players within a certain time period - why on Earth would I use games that Martial played before Bruno arrived for comparison?

Again, I say he carried the attack because by way if simple subtraction, he was the one forward available of our three, and he was winning us points. Or if, for this particular conversation, you agree to classify Bruno as a forward, then I’m happy to say the two of them. But even if Bruno wasn’t there and we scored goals from long balls or goal kicks, I wouldn’t be saying Martial and De Gea carried the attack. I was referring to the forwards. I don’t mind including Bruno here too, but the way I see it - we play with three strikers who are there to get us goals first and foremost. All three of them did that post lockdown, and I simply gave a special mention to Martial as he also did it for a bit before lockdown. When the other two were not there. Yes, we had others on the pitch, but in our front line three that we fielded in that spell, Martial was the only performer. Bruno also performed, just as he performed after lockdown, yet was oddly left out when all the comparisons were going round of our forwards vs Liverpool’s forwards etc.

Bruno came to replace Lingard and Pereira. Martial does something different in the side, and can be judged to be playing well or not whether Bruno is in the team, whether Lingard is in the team etc. He played well before Bruno joined last season, and he played well after Bruno joined. His own personal assessment has nothing to do with Bruno. He was playing well, and Bruno was playing well. As was Matic. He was much better once Bruno joined as he had more quality around him. I don’t imply he was some sort of one man team, I simply say that he didn’t have his strike partners for a period and played very well in that spell. This season, he has had them, and Bruno - and not played well. That is a Martial issue, as it is when he is playing well and scoring goals, which he was last season.

He wasn't winning the points on his own, that's the point. If he was doing that without a player like Bruno then I would have agreed that Martial carried our team/attack but he didn't. He was second best player and our best player's attacking contribution was equally good.

Anyways I didn't agree with the point that Bruno carried the team, just like I don't agree with Martial carried the attack. They all played key roles, that's for sure.

Also all these days you said you don't consider Bruno as midfielder (IIRC), now you are saying he shouldn't be part of the attack. He should be part of either of these 2?

 

[roonster09]

Do you know what, @roonster09 - it appears that we are arguing over semantics, not for the first time, so I’ll just say that if you feel Bruno is our best, most important player - that’s fair enough. He’s in a group of players that it would not be unreasonable to say as much about, so it is what it is. If you feel he was our best last season, that’s also fair, as he played well last season.

Well I wouldn't say he is our Messi but he is up there with the best of our players. Like last season it's always spells, there are run of games where he is our best player, then Rashford and then you have Pogba as our best player for many games, Shaw is consistently up there with the best or second best.

We have improved a lot where we have few players you can argue are our best players and best part is all of them are for their attacking contributions (or non defensive ones).

 

[Lappen]

Disagree. Bruno isn't demonstrating a winning mentality. Leadership isn't screaming at teammates and throwing your arms in the air in disgust whenever a move breaks down. Leadership is encouraging teammates and giving everything to the cause. Bruno has certainly shown that for United in the past, but in the past few months, he is very frustrated, it's alienating him I'm sure from some of his teammates and fans. He needs to reflect on his own game and show some humility. I have faith he can rediscover his form.

I think you are both right and wrong. There can be to much of the screaming and complaining in teams, but our team has one "screamer".
And I certainly dont want only leaders like Maguire whom I see as a good quite leader. (He has been screaming a bit moore lately and that is good in my opinion.) The importen thing is how leaders act outside the pitch. Everybody hates the screamer that don't put the same pressure in him self, that is just complaining. And you don't get the kick in the as, that everybody needs now and then, if you only hearing, you can do it or better luck next time...

I don't think Bruno screams more now because he is focusing in the others. I think its frustration from his own game, and tiredness from playing games every week for a long time.

Zlatan said a team needs 10 leaders and one captain on the pitch to win titels. I like that but don't think it works out with 11 screamers or 11 huggers. Its the differences that build a great team.

 

[Rozay]

He wasn't winning the points on his own, that's the point. If he was doing that without a player like Bruno then I would have agreed that Martial carried our team/attack but he didn't. He was second best player and our best player's attacking contribution was equally good.

Anyways I didn't agree with the point that Bruno carried the team, just like I don't agree with Martial carried the attack. They all played key roles, that's for sure.

Also all these days you said you don't consider Bruno as midfielder (IIRC), now you are saying he shouldn't be part of the attack. He should be part of either of these 2?

And vice versa, you have always contested with anybody that Bruno is not a forward but a midfielder. And I don’t think Bruno is a forward. I said he plays like one, which I had a problem with. And I said that over time, I have begun to adjust my own way of assessing him to that of a forward, because perhaps I was being extra harsh on him when looking at him through my expectations of a midfielder. I don’t really know what he is tbh. From what I see, more of a second striker than anything else.

Ultimately, whatever he is - he isn’t one of our 3 strikers that we play. And I also don’t think penalties have much bearing in relation to any position expectation either. Luka Milovojevic scores pens from DM. Leighton Baines and David Unsworth scored them from left back. James Milner scores them from wherever the feck it is his position is. Penalties are there to be scored, and he’s as good as I’ve seen, but from a statistical perspective m, in relation to the position you play - they are a bonus. When top teams say they want a 20 goal striker, I doubt that means they want 10 pens, given they could easily have a 10 pen left-back. Part of why I hold Andy Cole in such esteem tbh.

And I don’t mean to diminish spot kicks, I simply mean that I don’t see them as a metric to say one footballer is a better footballer than another because ‘he scored more goals’, when he takes pens and the other doesn’t.

For me, from a statistical perspective, Bruno’s best feature is far and away the amount of chances he creates. That, I see as his main job. And to chip in with goals too, which he does quite well when not considering spot kicks, and amazingly well when they are considered. But the number of chances created is bread and butter, and a large part of what I see as his job. For Martial, the metrics are a bit different. He is there to score goals primarily. As is Greenwood and Rashford. Bruno, not so much.

 

[roonster09]

And vice versa, you have always contested with anybody that Bruno is not a forward but a midfielder. And I don’t think Bruno is a forward. I said he plays like one, which I had a problem with. And I said that over time, I have begun to adjust my own way of assessing him to that of a forward, because perhaps I was being extra harsh on him when looking at him through my expectations of a midfielder. I don’t really know what he is tbh. From what I see, more of a second striker than anything else.

Ultimately, whatever he is - he isn’t one of our 3 strikers that we play. And I also don’t think penalties have much bearing in relation to any position expectation either. Luka Milovojevic scores pens from DM. Leighton Baines and David Unsworth scored them from left back. James Milner scores them from wherever the feck it is his position is. Penalties are there to be scored, and he’s as good as I’ve seen, but from a statistical perspective m, in relation to the position you play - they are a bonus. When top teams say they want a 20 goal striker, I doubt that means they want 10 pens, given they could easily have a 10 pen left-back. Part of why I hold Andy Cole in such esteem tbh.

And I don’t mean to diminish spot kicks, I simply mean that I don’t see them as a metric to say one footballer is a better footballer than another because ‘he scored more goals’, when he takes pens and the other doesn’t.

For me, from a statistical perspective, Bruno’s best feature is far and away the amount of chances he creates. That, I see as his main job. And to chip in with goals too, which he does quite well when not considering spot kicks, and amazingly well when they are considered. But the number of chances created is bread and butter, and a large part of what I see as his job. For Martial, the metrics are a bit different. He is there to score goals primarily. As is Greenwood and Rashford. Bruno, not so much.

If I'm not wrong, I argued Bruno isn't a second striker, he is attacking mid. Not CM or SS, he is/was attacking midfielder.

In that period, he assisted goal vs Chelsea, vs City, won penalty vs Watford and assisted 1 and scored long ranger vs Everton. So it's not just penalties that helps him here, he contributed with and without penalties (just like this season where he is 3rd in goals + assists excluding penalties)

So attacking mid with as many goal contributions, much more chances created and then works his socks off helping defense is obviously better than CF who contributed as many goals.

Anyways you don't consider Bruno as part of our attack, I consider him as part of our attack and also part of our midfield.

 

[The United]

If I'm not wrong, I argued Bruno isn't a second striker, he is attacking mid. Not CM or SS, he is/was attacking midfielder.

In that period, he assisted goal vs Chelsea, vs City, won penalty vs Watford and assisted 1 and scored long ranger vs Everton. So it's not just penalties that helps him here, he contributed with and without penalties (just like this season where he is 3rd in goals + assists excluding penalties)

So attacking mid with as many goal contributions, much more chances created and then works his socks off helping defense is obviously better than CF who contributed as many goals.

Anyways you don't consider Bruno as part of our attack, I consider him as part of our attack and also part of our midfield.

The guy presses, moves forward, stays back, recovers the ball in the middle of the pitch, tackles in his own boxes, scores, assists, etc.

And, when people argue about him being forwards or CM, I wonder what their agenda is. I mean he is a team player and his stats will show that he can rival other players's stats in most outfield positions.

Meaning he is a unique and valuable player.

 

[Bristol_Red_87]

I don't think Bruno screams more now because he is focusing in the others. I think its frustration from his own game, and tiredness from playing games every week for a long time.

This. His frustrations are certainly born more out his own form, but ultimately we need better players (or at least better performing players) around him so he doesn't feel he needs to do everyone else's job.

 

[Lappen]

This. His frustrations are certainly born more out his own form, but ultimately we need better players (or at least better performing players) around him so he doesn't feel he needs to do everyone else's job.

Yes you are absolutely right in my opinion. When Pogba play you see that he gets more space and succeeds with link up play a lott more/ better. Same with Cavani even if it could be moore.
When Pogba doesn't play its to easy to the opponent to take out Bruno. We need moore creative options without losing our heads defensive.

 

[b20times]

I just wish he'd stop diving about and going to ground so easily, bags of talent but the way he's always moaning is a little bit tedious sometimes.
Hope he turns up tonight.