Brentan Rodgers

[Drainy]

I'm not saying he's not done a good job, I'm just saying it's overstated. He peaked TEN years ago. People are mistaking longevity for dynasty. A great king does not rule long, but rules as long as he should.

Conveniently coinciding with the purchase of a new stadium that caused the transfer budget to be pretty much a net of zero, and the rise of the sugar daddy clubs..

There are very few managers who could have handled their transition along with the increased competition better than Wenger did.

 

[Ekeke]

Isn´t Levante Valência rivals? I had some Valência friends from college Eramus days and they were always mocking Levante.

Both, I believe Levante is the "big one"

 

[Siorac]

I'm not saying he's not done a good job, I'm just saying it's overstated. He peaked TEN years ago. People are mistaking longevity for dynasty. A great king does not rule long, but rules as long as he should.

Wenger's impact on Arsenal cannot be overstated. Your original question was whether he'll leave them in much greater shape than they were in when he began. And the answer is obviously yes.

I mean come on, Arsenal were renowned for being the dourest, meanest, most boring, most aggressive team ever and he changed their entire effing DNA to the point where they are now held up, annoyingly, as the True Heralds of Beautiful Football, they are the shining lights who Play the Game the Right Way.

And while that annoys me personally, it's entirely, 100% down to Wenger. He kept them competitive - well, he kept them in the CL, anyway - on a relative shoestring while the club built a new modern 60,000 stadium. He created the foundations for Arsenal to become a true global power. It might be that another manager will capitalise on that but Wenger must get credit for it.

 

[Sly]

Both, I believe Levante is the "big one"

Alright mate. Was getting confused. Take your word since you are the resident Valência expert

 

[Deleted member 78215]

Wenger's impact on Arsenal cannot be overstated. Your original question was whether he'll leave them in much greater shape than they were in when he began. And the answer is obviously yes.

I mean come on, Arsenal were renowned for being the dourest, meanest, most boring, most aggressive team ever and he changed their entire effing DNA to the point where they are now held up, annoyingly, as the True Heralds of Beautiful Football, they are the shining lights who Play the Game the Right Way.

And while that annoys me personally, it's entirely, 100% down to Wenger. He kept them competitive - well, he kept them in the CL, anyway - on a relative shoestring while the club built a new modern 60,000 stadium. He created the foundations for Arsenal to become a true global power. It might be that another manager will capitalise on that but Wenger must get credit for it.

That's a pretty comprehensive response. Fair enough.

To be honest, I was looking at it fairly myopically, i.e., in terms of cold, hard results and positions, but yeah I agree he has improved the infrastructure of the club.

 

[Thisistheone]

Wenger had been an incredible manager and will surely go down as Arsenal's best ever? And one of the greats in PL era.

As for Rodgers... I still give credit to him, despite his silly comments today. Liverpool were given a huge advantage this season and he's almost taken full advantage. He got done by Jose today but he's not the first and won't be the last.

 

[JazzG]

He's lost to us home and away. He's displaying a real tactical naivity, and if he wants to be a top manager he needs to grow out of it. Liverpool didn't need a win today, they could have sat back a bit more, encouraged us to come out more than we did, and then used their pace to try and get in behind us. We sat back so much, because Liverpool were doing what they always do, and trying to non-stop attack.

I can't really remember the first match but today there was no tactical genius from Mourinho. He had a back four sitting deep, three in front of them who were sitting deep and two wide players who tracked back and almost made a midfield 5 for most of the game. He complained about West Ham being super defensive and was just as bad if not worse today. Did the same thing against Atletico. Funny how he does that, complains when it happens to him but is happy to park the bus as he would say. Now his tactics at City were fantastic, set his team up perfectly and City had no response. His tactics against us at Stamford Bridge were also very good, predictable as the same thing happened at Liverpool but executed perfectly. Today his team were organised and frustrated Liverpool. You did the same at our place but couldn't really score a goal.

Despite their great form I do think Liverpool squad needs more improvements. They were missing two key players today (Sturridge & Henderson) and you could see a noticeable drop in quality

Because a draw would've won them the game. They didn't need to go all out. They did and Mourinho did the classic big game Mourinho tactic. Sit deep, close down and hit them on the counter

Could you ever see Ferguson setting his team out to draw a match at home when his teams were flying? The onus was on Liverpool to win, on the day their attacking players didn't have the guile to open Chelsea up. They are imo at their best when they press teams and win the ball back with lots of space but Mourinho made sure they didn't have any of that. What makes you think if Liverpool had sat deep that would of bought Chelsea out? Atletico tried that and Chelsea were happy to sit deep and make sure they didn't concede a goal.

Chelsea had a stonewall pen denied before the Gerrard slip

Yeah but opposition teams don't get penalties at Liverpool, I thought you knew that? Well we did but were 5-0 down at that point.....

 

[crappycraperson]

It is what it is. Chelsea's record against big teams in league is ridiculous and they should be winning the league at a canter if they had not thrown away points against lesser teams. It may be down to negative tactics but it can't be down to luck given how often they are able to pull it off.

 

[LR7]

Brenton keeps harping on about how much City and Chelsea have spent in comparison, almost in a Moyesesque 'excuses at the ready' sort of way.

 

[JazzG]

It is what it is. Chelsea's record against big teams in league is ridiculous and they should be winning the league at a canter if they had not thrown away points against lesser teams. It may be down to negative tactics but it can't be down to luck given how often they are able to pull it off.

I think when the onus is on Chelsea to attack and take the game to their opponent they look average imo. They struggle a bit when teams set up defensively against them. Apart from Hazard have really lacked creativity and like us struggled with their strikers. Oscar in the past few months has really dipped otherwise he was quite good for them there. Willian looks a good player but not someone who will open a defence up or score regular goals for them. However when it comes to setting up in a more defensive manner and playing on the counter (which is something they do against the better sides) then it suits them perfectly.

Brenton keeps harping on about how much City and Chelsea have spent in comparison, almost in a Moyesesque 'excuses at the ready' sort of way.

It is like they conveniently forget all their reckless spending the years before, or how they almost went bankrupt.

 

[Lynk]

Could you ever see Ferguson setting his team out to draw a match at home when his teams were flying?

All the time in the CL. We went on the longest unbeaten run in CL history from 07-09 with Ferguson's cautious method, Rooney on the left, Ronaldo central and Park in the middle.

 

[JazzG]

All the time in the CL. We went on the longest unbeaten run in CL history from 07-09 with Ferguson's cautious method, Rooney on the left, Ronaldo central and Park in the middle.

You did that against teams better than you in the CL, how often did he play like that in the PL?

 

[Barney]

I think when the onus is on Chelsea to attack and take the game to their opponent they look average imo. They struggle a bit when teams set up defensively against them. Apart from Hazard have really lacked creativity and like us struggled with their strikers. Oscar in the past few months has really dipped otherwise he was quite good for them there. Willian looks a good player but not someone who will open a defence up or score regular goals for them. However when it comes to setting up in a more defensive manner and playing on the counter (which is something they do against the better sides) then it suits them perfectly.



It is like they conveniently forget all their reckless spending the years before, or how they almost went bankrupt.

Why should Rodgers bang on about what we've spent before he joined? Bankruptcy had nothing to do with irresponsible spending either.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Wenger had been an incredible manager and will surely go down as Arsenal's best ever? And one of the greats in PL era.

As for Rodgers... I still give credit to him, despite his silly comments today. Liverpool were given a huge advantage this season and he's almost taken full advantage. He got done by Jose today but he's not the first and won't be the last.

It's between him and Chapman, I suppose.

 

[Barney]

All the time in the CL. We went on the longest unbeaten run in CL history from 07-09 with Ferguson's cautious method, Rooney on the left, Ronaldo central and Park in the middle.

You can't compare the two competitions. Managers often had completely different set ups in each.

 

[Lynk]

You did that against teams better than you in the CL, how often did he play like that in the PL?

We were the best team in Europe for those years.

You can't compare the two competitions. Managers often had completely different set ups in each.

Ferguson was never a completely negative manager but he did focus more on control in huge games rather than kamikaze attack. Liverpool played into Chelsea's hands and Rodgers showed he isn't the full managerial shilling yet.

It's between him and Chapman, I suppose.

Chapman for me.

 

[Dumbstar]

Brenton keeps harping on about how much City and Chelsea have spent in comparison, almost in a Moyesesque 'excuses at the ready' sort of way.

Brendan and Moyes comparison.

Brendan to get 7th placed team into CL = Achieved.
Moyes to get CL team into 7th place = Achieved.

I see where you're coming from.

 

[Spiersey]

He complained about West Ham being super defensive and was just as bad if not worse today. Did the same thing against Atletico. Funny how he does that, complains when it happens to him but is happy to park the bus as he would say. Now his tactics at City were fantastic, set his team up perfectly and City had no response. His tactics against us at Stamford Bridge were also very good, predictable as the same thing happened at Liverpool but executed perfectly. Today his team were organised and frustrated Liverpool. You did the same at our place but couldn't really score a goal.

I doubt he actually has an issue with teams like West Ham playing like they did. Almost all the times he complains he tends to use phrases like '19th Century Football' which will be the headlines rather than us playing crap and not scoring.

 

[JazzG]

Why should Rodgers bang on about what we've spent before he joined? Bankruptcy had nothing to do with irresponsible spending either.

The bankruptcy was to do with your club selling out to a bunch of fecking cowboys who made bad promises to get in the first place. The Arab lot were talking sense as to what was achievable but Americans reeled you in with the no debt on the club promise. I hear Moores made more out of that than the Arabs as well. The reason why David Moores sold up was because you needed a bigger stadium, extra money investing which you couldn't afford due to your reckless spending in the first place.

Liverpool or Rodgers are in no position to preach to anyone about spending. Your club runs at a £50m loss a year and we hear about how your lot might win the title on such a restricted budget. Everyone is conveniently forgetting who is absorbing all those losses and still making money available to spend. The new stadium you wanted is out of budget so you have to extend your current one, again the owners will be putting up the money for that.

 

[Raul Madrid]

I think when the onus is on Chelsea to attack and take the game to their opponent they look average imo. They struggle a bit when teams set up defensively against them. Apart from Hazard have really lacked creativity and like us struggled with their strikers. Oscar in the past few months has really dipped otherwise he was quite good for them there. Willian looks a good player but not someone who will open a defence up or score regular goals for them. However when it comes to setting up in a more defensive manner and playing on the counter (which is something they do against the better sides) then it suits them perfectly.



It is like they conveniently forget all their reckless spending the years before, or how they almost went bankrupt.

It was very similar with us too, especially in his last season. Lots of teams beat us or drew with us by giving us the ball and not attacking and we struggled greatly. In 11/12 we managed to just about scrape victories against such teams. Mourinho is a great manager, inspiring creativity is not the first thing on his mind imo. I heard that with Madrid in training he spent ages working on defensive drills and left it up to the attackers to be creative and come up with ways attacking themselves. I remember spanish journalists including balague saying that casillas was complaining to mourinho and saying that when teams defended against us a certain way that he wasn't providing solutions for the team and that he should do more in that regard. The games vs united were they just sat back and let us have the ball were very good examples of how we struggled when it was up to us to take the iniative, especially in comparison to our games vs barca that year in the league, super cup and Spanish cup. When teams played defensive against us we struggled and it shows that its not either one of mourinhos strong points or one of his man concerns when even the normally non-confrontational casillas is complaining about it. For me though mourinho is still the best manager in the world, or at least as good as anybody else.

 

[JazzG]

We were the best team in Europe for those years.

The year you won the CL you scraped past an average Barca side and won the final on penalties. You then got comprehensively played off the pitch twice by Barca in the finals, so I somehow doubt your claim of being the best team in Europe....

 

[Earthquake]

I doubt he actually has an issue with teams like West Ham playing like they did. Almost all the times he complains he tends to use phrases like '19th Century Football' which will be the headlines rather than us playing crap and not scoring.

Shifting the attention, Ferguson used to do that a lot too.

 

[Pexbo]

Wenger's impact on Arsenal cannot be overstated. Your original question was whether he'll leave them in much greater shape than they were in when he began. And the answer is obviously yes.

I mean come on, Arsenal were renowned for being the dourest, meanest, most boring, most aggressive team ever and he changed their entire effing DNA to the point where they are now held up, annoyingly, as the True Heralds of Beautiful Football, they are the shining lights who Play the Game the Right Way.

And while that annoys me personally, it's entirely, 100% down to Wenger. He kept them competitive - well, he kept them in the CL, anyway - on a relative shoestring while the club built a new modern 60,000 stadium. He created the foundations for Arsenal to become a true global power. It might be that another manager will capitalise on that but Wenger must get credit for it.

I've no interest in replying to this thread other than to say +1 for this post. It's on the money, for all of his faults and deficiencies he runs a tight ship and I think Moyes has shown how hard it is to stay in the top 4.

 

[Lynk]

The year you won the CL you scraped past an average Barca side and won the final on penalties. You then got comprehensively played off the pitch twice by Barca in the finals, so I somehow doubt your claim of being the best team in Europe....

That second Barca final was in 2011. I'm not including that we fell off the top tier when Ronaldo left. We demolished Inter and yourselves in 2009, Even your captain at the time Cesc Fabregas, a Barca fan called us the greatest team in the world. Barcelona showed their dominance in the 2009 final, but we were huge, huge favourites going into that game. People forget that.


Oh btw, longest unbeaten European Cup run was during that period, bear in mind the great teams of the past Madrid, Barca, Bayern, Ajax, Liverpool. Two finals back to back, one won, one lost, Arsenal have only ever played in one in their history.

 

[JazzG]

It was very similar with us too, especially in his last season. Lots of teams beat us or drew with us by giving us the ball and not attacking and we struggled greatly. In 11/12 we managed to just about scrape victories against such teams. Mourinho is a great manager, inspiring creativity is not the first thing on his mind imo. I heard that with Madrid in training he spent ages working on defensive drills and left it up to the attackers to be creative and come up with ways attacking themselves. I remember spanish journalists including balague saying that casillas was complaining to mourinho and saying that when teams defended against us a certain way that he wasn't providing solutions for the team and that he should do more in that regard. The games vs united were they just sat back and let us have the ball were very good examples of how we struggled when it was up to us to take the iniative, especially in comparison to our games vs barca that year in the league, super cup and Spanish cup. When teams played defensive against us we struggled and it shows that its not either one of mourinhos strong points or one of his man concerns when even the normally non-confrontational casillas is complaining about it. For me though mourinho is still the best manager in the world, or at least as good as anybody else.

At least with Chelsea you could say he might have an excuse due to not having the most creative players or strikers but he definitely doesn't have one if the same happened at Real Madrid! I think Mourinho's negative mindset is what might hold him back, if you want to break down defensive teams you need to throw caution to the wind sometimes and let your players express themselves. I remember Del Bosque talking about his time at Real Madrid and said how he let the creative player just go out and express themselves. For Mourinho it always looks like it is defence first and then attack. A manager who would rather his team wait for a mistake than actually force one out of the team if you see what I mean.

 

[Dumbstar]

Indeed Houllier struggled in his second post treble season when smaller clubs played defensively at home to our defensive long ball set up. They sussed us out quickly just as West Ham did to Chelsea this season.

 

[Lynk]

Indeed Houllier struggled in his second post treble season when smaller clubs played defensively at home to our defensive long ball set up. They sussed us out quickly just as West Ham did to Chelsea this season.

Treble season

 

[JazzG]

That second final was in 2011. I'm not including that. We demolished Inter and yourselves in 2009, Even your captain at the time Cesc Fabregas, a Barca fan called us the greatest team in the world. Barcelona showed their dominance in the 2009 final, but we were huge, huge favourites going into that game.

Oh btw, longest unbeaten European Cup run was during the period. Two finals back to back, Arsenal have only ever played in one.

Demolishing us back then was nothing to be too proud about! That season you only won 2 of your group stage games, drew 4 of them and scraped past Porto 3-2 hardly great form. You were favourites by the English media but I was expecting Barca to turn you over and they did so comprehensively. Apart from the Chelsea games they had been in top class form that season.

Arsenal playing in one CL final has nothing to do with this conservation so not sure why you are pointing that out.

 

[Raul Madrid]

At least with Chelsea you could say he might have an excuse due to not having the most creative players or strikers but he definitely doesn't have one if the same happened at Real Madrid! I think Mourinho's negative mindset is what might hold him back, if you want to break down defensive teams you need to throw caution to the wind sometimes and let your players express themselves. I remember Del Bosque talking about his time at Real Madrid and said how he let the creative player just go out and express themselves. For Mourinho it always looks like it is defence first and then attack. A manager who would rather his team wait for a mistake than actually force one out of the team if you see what I mean.

Exactly. Benitez and a few other managers are like that too. I remember jorge valdano said a few years ago after the Liverpool Chelsea semi finals (not sure if 05 or 07) that the matches were bad and he said something funny like if you put a piece of shit on a stick and put it up in anfield they would call it art or something. He also said that because mourinho and benitez weren't great players themselves that they didn't trust their players and could not focus on their strengths and so mainly focused on stifling the oppositions strengths instead. Moyes is another example of that imo.

 

[alastair]

To get this thread back on track, Rodgers has been unreal this year and I really hope the owners appreciate that what he's done this year is nothing short of miraculous, even if it all does end in disappointment.

 

[crappycraperson]

I think when the onus is on Chelsea to attack and take the game to their opponent they look average imo. They struggle a bit when teams set up defensively against them. Apart from Hazard have really lacked creativity and like us struggled with their strikers. Oscar in the past few months has really dipped otherwise he was quite good for them there. Willian looks a good player but not someone who will open a defence up or score regular goals for them. However when it comes to setting up in a more defensive manner and playing on the counter (which is something they do against the better sides) then it suits them perfectly.



It is like they conveniently forget all their reckless spending the years before, or how they almost went bankrupt.

Yeah I said before that Mata sale was a howler by Jose. He was one player that could have helped them score goals when Hazard was out and Oscar was off form.

 

[Dumbstar]

Treble season

Was the only way to make you remember.

 

[LR7]

Brendan and Moyes comparison.

Brendan to get 7th placed team into CL = Achieved.
Moyes to get CL team into 7th place = Achieved.

I see where you're coming from.

Did anything in my post compare their achievements this year? Or are you baselessly wittering on for the sake of it?

 

[Lynk]

Demolishing us back then was nothing to be too proud about! That season you only won 2 of your group stage games, drew 4 of them and scraped past Porto 3-2 hardly great form. You were favourites by the English media but I was expecting Barca to turn you over and they did so comprehensively. Apart from the Chelsea games they had been in top class form that season.

Arsenal playing in one CL final has nothing to do with this conservation so not sure why you are pointing that out.

Still had the longest unbeaten run in the history of the European Cup. We also went 1500 minutes without conceeding a goal in 2009, a record in England, Spain, Germany and Italy. Hate all you want, but United were comfortably the best team in the world up until Rome.

 

[Lynk]

Was the only way to make you remember.

 

[That'sHernandez]

You can't compare the two competitions. Managers often had completely different set ups in each.

Act up, get out, I don't need you poof

 

[Barney]

To get this thread back on track, Rodgers has been unreal this year and I really hope the owners appreciate that what he's done this year is nothing short of miraculous, even if it all does end in disappointment.

Yep. Looks like a new contract is all but done which is brilliant for us and if rumours are to be believed we could be looking at spending anywhere between £50-70m on top of sales. If I was him I'd be making demands to be given more control over transfers so he isn't stuck with more Aspas type signings.

 

[alastair]

Yep. Looks like a new contract is all but done which is brilliant for us and if rumours are to be believed we could be looking at spending anywhere between £50-70m on top of sales. If I was him I'd be making demands to be given more control over transfers so he isn't stuck with more Aspas type signings.

Aspas has been hilarious. You've basically bought a worse version of Carlos Vela.

There's a definite need for 5-6 players because it strikes me that as soon as Henderson and Sturridge are missing, the quality drop off is quite severe. And you could still win the league of course, but even if you did, the investment would still be required.

 

[R.N7]

I love when cats think they bigger than a sumo.

 

[Barney]

Aspas has been hilarious. You've basically bought a worse version of Carlos Vela.

There's a definite need for 5-6 players because it strikes me that as soon as Henderson and Sturridge are missing, the quality drop off is quite severe. And you could still win the league of course, but even if you did, the investment would still be required.

Vela is actually doing quite well in Spain and I expect Aspas to as well.

Yeah, I think five or six additions is about right. I think we'll probably sign four or five and bring a couple of our younger players from loan. Henderson is immensely important. He's not as good as a Sturridge or Gerrard, but his value to the squad is arguably more.