Boeing in trouble again
- Thread starter Foxbatt
- Start date
I dont see how the commercial plane section of boeing wont take a big hit vs airbus
Already has. Airbus are killing them these last few years. The A320 is selling about twice as fast as the 737 Max, which aside from Boeing stalwarts is mostly being ordered by second and third rate airlines now on ultra cheap deals. The problem Airbus face is they cant build them fast enough so airlines are being forced back to Boeing if they want to see an aircraft in the next 10 years.
Then there's the 777X coming with its foldy wingtips...
So they prefer to see an aircraft in 6-7 years that will be downed for any problems than to wait
But yes, I guess there are no options
I'd bet money an airline like Lufthansa skipped the queue with their 737 order.
edit: first one comes in 3 years.
More of an airline maintenance issue, but...
I k ow that is a boeing thread. But maybe we could make it a boeing- airbus thread and post the airbus issues? I cant believe that this only happens to boeing. Is insane
It's not and most of the issues in this thread are not anything outside normal airline operations.
Boeing has fundamental problems with the 737Max only. The 737Ng is a safe and reliable aircraft, so is the 747, 767 and 777, and now they've fixed the batteries the 787 appears to be too.
Glad I didn't see this post before flying this month.
Slightly weird to talk about “fresh concerns” and “the latest in a series of safety incidents” when the incident in question happened in February 2023.
I don't think this was widely reported last year and now the report has come out they can publish a story on it.
I can't believe they are still stuck at the ISS: https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/07/science/boeing-starliner-nasa-astronauts-return/index.html
I read Endurance, by Scott Kelly and one thing that stood out was how every moment of time was accounted for. Those men and women up there are doing a lot of work and between their research work and maintaining the ISS, there isn't much time for other stuff. Makes me wonder what the Boeing castaways are doing.
I read Endurance, by Scott Kelly and one thing that stood out was how every moment of time was accounted for. Those men and women up there are doing a lot of work and between their research work and maintaining the ISS, there isn't much time for other stuff. Makes me wonder what the Boeing castaways are doing.
Yikes. Starliner's been a complete disaster so far, hopefully the astros get back safely as soon as possible.
I could see them asking their friend or family member, "hey can you watch my dog for a week while I go to space for a work trip?" Then the work trip takes 8 months.
One of the reasons why its taken so long is because they hadn't uploaded the autopilot software onto the spacecraft, so it was stuck docked unless it was manned(!). They've spent the last couple of weeks uploading it, and NASA don't really want it taking one of two docking ports out of action.
Decision day tomorrow. Either they get back via Starliner in early September or get a lift back on the next Crew Dragon to leave in early February. I'm guessing the latter as NASA can't risk anything going wrong.
More issues with the 777X. When/will it enter service? Will you feel safe flying in it? 
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/08/20/business/boeing-777x-issues/index.html
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/08/20/business/boeing-777x-issues/index.html
Of all the things that have been going wrong at Boeing this is probably the least reason for concern and should cause nobody to fear flying in their machines. It's test flights doing what test flights are supposed to do, finding problems with new designs.More issues with the 777X. When/will it enter service? Will you feel safe flying in it?
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/08/20/business/boeing-777x-issues/index.html
There is of course plenty of reason for concern about what has been happening at Boeing. They have made some disastrous decisions in recent decades, and they now have a very tough task ahead of them where they have to basically reverse their entire company culture. As a company, they have a lot to change about them to get some of their glory back. As for the 777X, I don't see why I wouldn't feel safe in it once it enters service. Especially with the scrutiny Boeing faces now it will probably be the most well-tested passenger aircraft in quite some time, possibly ever. Those privileges Boeing enjoyed where they could just self-certify a lot of their work and the FAA would just wave them through and grant special exceptions are not likely to happen again anytime soon. If anything I'd feel safer in a 777X than in a 737MAX that was built two years ago - and I do not consider the MAX fundamentally unsafe, even if I do consider it a posterchild for things that are wrong at Boeing.
As for when it will hit the market... who knows? AFAIK analysis what exactly caused the engine mount damages are not concluded yet, and without knowing the cause it is hard to say how much delay the correction of the issue might result in. And then of course there is every bit of a chance that further issues might crop up during certification. With the recently certified A321XLR a change in fire protection design required by EASA caused a year of delay, there could easily be similar things still coming for the 777X. And as we've already seen with the engine anti-icing systems of the 737MAX-7 and -10 the FAA is not inclined to grant them exceptions that would allow their aircraft to enter service despite notable issues.
Yep, they're staying until February and returning on Dragon. Starliner will return uncrewed.
Thanks for the detailed response!
With the 777X i guess Boeing are a bit lucky with the delays given the A350 has its own issues and long delivery lead time.
Yeah, it's all a bit of a mess as it means the Dragon going in a few weeks will now travel with 2 onboard rather than 4 and forces them to change crew rotations.
This is not good for them or NASA. They were paid double SpaceX for transport to ISS, haven't delivered and most likely won't fly the full 6 missions before ISS is de-orbited. They've already been paid most of the 5 billion so any extra work is loss making and they've already reported cost overruns of $1.6 billion. The company looks like it's a mess from the outside, and if they have realised they moved too far towards profit taking rather than delivering it might be too late already at least for crewed space vehicles.
NASA don't want to be reliant on one partner for manned missions so it'll be interesting what they decide to do for the next contracts from 2030 onwards.
Is the 777X really a competitor for the A350. I thought that was the 787.
The 787 is aimed at long and thin routes which means long distance routes with fewer passengers. The 777X is for trunk routes that carry lots of people between major airport hubs. These were operated by the 747, 77W, A35K and A380.
Airbus has stolen market share because the A350 is so good at covering multiple route types and can compete against the 777 and 787 equally well.
I wouldn't fly on the 777X for a while. A very novel technology from a company with a spotted recent reputation that's trying to keep some commonality from the older aircraft, plus less powerful engines on a heavier airframe doesn't sit well with me.
Looks like a tire exploded.
2 killed, 1 injured during incident at Delta TechOps in Atlanta
2 killed, 1 injured during incident at Delta TechOps in Atlanta
https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/2-killed-1-injured-during-incident-delta-techops-atlanta
Understood thank you. Your knowledge of this sector of civil aviation is comprehensive.
What "very novel technology" do you mean?
The wings. I know Boeing make them on military aircraft but nothing near this scale.
You... you actually labelled folding wingtips as "very novel technology"?
The only thing new is that it is used in a large passenger aircraft. It's not even an active wingtip/winglet, it just gets unlocked/folded during ground ops. And even if it had a disastrous structural fail, it is such a low percentage of the wing's surface area that losing a wingtip would not drastically impact the aircraft's capability to fly.
Sure it's an additional potential point of failure, as any moving part naturally is. But it's not a "this airframe is of questionable safety now"-sort of thing.
I doubt that the new engine is going to really be an issue. The B778/9 have the same MTOW as the B77W does and more than 95% of its maximum engine performance. Even if you were concerned about takeoff in hot&high conditions or go-around performance, the slight decrease in engine power is counteracted by more than 18% larger wings generating more lift.
I'm less concerned about the thing failing completely than what Boeing are doing to ensure it is locked on takeoff and stays locked during flight. Flutter of a surface that large would be seriously dangerous and rely entirely on fbw to keep the aircraft stable, and we know how reliable Boeing software development has been in recent years.
The 777X is a scaled up version of the 737 Max project, an attempt to use as much of an old design as possible and design around any bottlenecks. I don't trust it anymore than I do the 737.
Let me guess, their disastrous sales are being passed down to the workforce as a 0.4% pay increase but the directors are getting significantly more?
25% has been rejected in the latest offer. With the billions they're losing it'll be an interesting few months - the US government are already involved.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/sep/13/boeing-union-strike
This company just seems to be spiralling more by the minute.
25% at a failing company? Jesus, that's some demand! Were there promises made previously or something?
Ah there you go, 25% over 4 years. It's obviously not bad but with the prices of things in the States now I can see how they might want more than 6% or whatever it is.
It's bad when you realize that the last agreement was made 16 years ago. Boeing is far behind the curve in their wages.
Crazy. And yet that ops director earns $600,000 a month. They should have just paid what was asked and got on with it, the strike will cost them more than the pay rise, and there'll probably be a productivity increase along with it due to people having fewer financial and health worries to distract them.
Yup, and the last time wages were up for negotiation Boeing killed off the negotiations by threatening that if workers don't settle for their offer, they'd take production out of the current sites and produce somewhere where they can pay crap wages. Like they've done with Spirit Aerosystems, which was Boeing, but then got spun-off so they could employ people to do the same job for cheaper and without the protections and rights of a regular Boeing employee. As a result their financial situation is even worse than at Boeing, and as you say workers at Boeing are already far behind the curve:
We can all see how well that worked out for them. An overaged workforce with high fluctuation, resulting in a lot less average expertise, and attitudes of either not being paid enough to care about issues, or not feeling safe enough in their job and the company culture to report problems.
Pay shit wages, get shit products. Who would have thought?!
The capsule that left those astronauts stranded for 8 months was also made by Boeing wasn't it