Yep. Baresi is physically average as a CB. So is Costacurta.
Black Sheep Draft SF - Downcast vs Enigma
- Thread starter The Stain
- Start date
No doubt as far as I'm concerned.
I completely agree, that level of criticism is/was massively harsh, similarly in the case of Scirea and Moore as a CB pair.
As regard to your post, in 2008 Xavi was still surrounded by pretty similar minded players, tactically speaking, especially Iniesta and Silva out wide, Charlton cannot relate to that so there's that. If we are going to drill deeper there I would honestly like to know more on how you think Charlton would replace Iniesta in what he provided to the duo who were far, far greater than the sum of the parts when they played together and there's little doubt either would have looked as great as they did without the other. Possibly the best 'partnership' in the true sense of the word the game has seen. Sir Bobby is a bit of a question mark when I imagine him with Xavi, but won't think it will impact this game to a particular degree as with DC's CB pair.
Yeah, I got caught up in my superhero Baresi fantasy, although I'd still have him above Moore. The point remains - Moore and Scirea were significantly better with more physical partners, while for Baresi and Figueroa it wasn't so important, and using Moore as one, despite him obviously being great at pretty much everything, is not using him to his full potential.
I obviously disagree. Like I said above Nesta would be someone that is close style wise to Moore, would be mental to say a Scirea-Nesta CB pair would have any problem whatsoever.
Scirea marshalled deep, uber defensive tactical lines in the 80s Serie A, a league completely littered with brutal physical tactical systems with little protection. Sure he had Brio and Gentile with him but it isn't like he was a complete stranger to the physical game. It's where he made an entire career for himself. Moreover not like Enigma is particularly using a Didier Drogba up front with route 1 football, most of his football especially with the likes of Xavi and Ronaldinho will be played on the ground and the prime qualities of these CBs are far more relevant here than what they apparently lack. There would have to be a very specific opposition instruction where it would start to bother me, far from the case here.
Not to mention having Rijkaard in front of them mitigates that 'issue' to a decent degree.
Also, by your own logic, Figueroa was partnered with a more physical CB in Alberto Quintano in the 1974 WC, and Baresi doesn't fit that role either.
As for Costacurta, the Milan defense under Sacchi was far from a traditional back 4, he used the 35 yard rule which meant that entire team was immensely compact and the defense always had someone like Rijkaard in close vicinity in the case of going for aerial duels, not to mention Rijkaard being perfect for an additional defender in such a setup. If you had Baresi and Costacurta - who was definitely the more physical player in that duo - out on their own against a battering ram like Vieri for example, they'd struggle too.
This notion that Baresi can be partnered with anyone isn't quite accurate, for one we have the history of him being partnered with Scirea which we know didn't work, particularly as he was much closer to Scirea himself in terms of playing style. He himself admitted that if he were to play in a team with Scirea he would be the midfielder and not his defensive partner. I would agree with Figueroa being closer to that definition but Baresi isn't ideal next to another ball playing CB, which Figueroa was, going by the arguments made in here at least.
However, it wasn't questioned and rightly so. Would you have a peak Figueroa or Baresi in that duo? Probably not primarily as for both of them their ability with the ball and offensive contribution is a big reason why they are singled out from their defenses and not their partners, who weren't exactly far off defensively and pretty much were a big part of the setup off the ball but weren't capable of adding to that with the offensive facet of the game. Similarly for Beckenbauer. And for the other liberos/sweepers who dominate the top tier of defensive greatness in the history of the game for pretty much the same reason. Defenders with the ability to influence the offense instantly got catapulted to fan worship and of course, rightly so. That's a massive difference they provide and something that completely changes the game.
This sort of description could literally apply to Bobby Moore - just change 'creativity' to 'aerial ability'.
In fact I would say that it's more applicable to Moore than Xavi (by quite a distance, and I say that as a massive Xavi fan).
@Moby I'm not pointing out only the physicality of the pair, although in Figueroa's case that helps him being a bit "more complete" in a sense. I think a more aggressive player next to either of them is a lot better. As I said someone to chase the forwards down and attack the first ball. It would possibly give less time for the forwards to drop back and turn to the goal. That's the main issue I have with sweeper/sweeper combos. Sure Rijkaard is there but there is a chance he'll get pulled out wide to help either full back. So it's a combination of both for me.
Thing is, I never said they will struggle in this particular game (as they weren't exposed in the first game either). The opposite, actually. Still doesn't make it a great combo in my eyes, although let's agree to disagree
By the way, doesn't this argument proves uncomplimentary nature of Moore (slightly less complete Baresi) and Scirea? Sorry for dragging it further
By the way, penalties? Or maybe our overlords have something else up their sleeves? @Downcast @Enigma_87 @antohan @The Stain
I'm going to flip a coin, brb.
I'm ok either way. Or @The Stain can decide it as I think he didn't vote yet
In the spirit of this draft, probably the one who solves a jigsaw puzzle the quickest, wins.
Ooh, good idea.
Yeah I mean some sort of puzzle/quiz probably. We've been bored with penalties and if there's a draft to try something like that for a tie, it's this..
Can't be arsed. Penalties. Send in takers and where your keeper dives (from his perspective). Left, right, center.
@Downcast @Enigma_87
@Downcast @Enigma_87
Looks like bamboozle is offline
Yeah 
sent. @Downcast @The Stain
I don't think physicality is the issue here in the absence of Vieri like striker more whether Moore can play, and excel, with a more aggressive defending style. Given his all roundness as a CB I don't see it being an issue - timing and anticipation are important aspects of a more stopperish defending style
Sorry for the delay.
I will read the last posts later.
I understand we have penalties.
I will read the last posts later.
I understand we have penalties.
Sent
pas de soucis
Watched/read with interest.....
The 'front 6's of both teams are superb and the wide players are scarily good!
The more I looked, the more I struggled to find a clear winner and in the end I didn't vote ..... If I'd had to, I'd have gone for Downcast for the midfield players - my time.
Glad it's a tie, good luck.
The 'front 6's of both teams are superb and the wide players are scarily good!
The more I looked, the more I struggled to find a clear winner and in the end I didn't vote ..... If I'd had to, I'd have gone for Downcast for the midfield players - my time.
Glad it's a tie, good luck.
Puzzles or riddles are a rather unfair way to settle a semifinal. It would have to be something completely random/equal chance. Penos will do.
1. Good
2. Hard to do the opposite given your alias
Ahuh
.... my second United hero. Platini was a beautiful player (84 ECs was amazing) and then Rijkaard, rarely seen someone who was so good in so many positions/formations.I don't see anything terribly wrong with Scirea/Moore either. The latter is in the Figueroa mould for me, more or less, i.e. a complete defender you can get away with pairing up either with Kohler or Scirea, to put it like that. You can't expect him to use his whole bag of tricks, so to speak, with the latter as his partner - but it's a minor point in this context.
Ideal it ain't, perhaps, but something has to give in these GOAT fests. Essentially, I agree with Aldo here - it's too harsh to criticize that choice given the nature of the draft.
Ideal it ain't, perhaps, but something has to give in these GOAT fests. Essentially, I agree with Aldo here - it's too harsh to criticize that choice given the nature of the draft.
To be honest I don't really see Moore excelling that much in the air(not it is relevant in this game mind). I think he's good at it but not challenging for headers and engaging in physical battles. Moore ability in the air is down more to his reading of the game and positional sense rather than having an exceptional leap like Passarella for example.
Thought Krol would have been the CB here alongside Godin, with Maldini on the left.
hence suggested it here
Dani Alves hits it..
Sir Bobby smacks it..
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO WHAT A BERK
1-0 Downcast
1-0 Downcast
Dani Alves with the first penalty. Downcast FTW!
Downcast FTW!Penaldo steps up. Fixes his hair then runs up..
Eusebio looks assured..
SAVE, WHAT A SHIT PENALTY
COOLY SLOTS IT DOWN THE CENTER. CLEMENCE, YOU KNOB!
1-1.
1-1.
Camacho runs up..
Ronaldinho next..
GOLGOLGOLGOLGOLGOLGOLGOLGOLGOLGOLGOLGOLGOLGOLGOLGOLGOLGOLGOLGOLGOLGOLAZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
HE FACKEN SMASHES IT ONTO THE LEFT POST, IT HITS CLEMENCE IN THE HEAD AND BOUNCES ONTO THE BAR BEFORE CLEMENCE CAN COLLECT IT.
2-1 Downcast.
2-1 Downcast.
Both Ronaldos on the piss.
Scirea with the run up..
Georgie's up next..
I CAN PLAY NEXT TO ANYONE, CNUTS, GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
GOAL OFC
3-2 Downcast
3-2 Downcast
Bobby Moore will take the last one, can he do it..
Xavi puts the ball down.. Runs up and..
COURSE HE CAN. 4-2 AND THE GAME IS OVER.
DOESN'T REALIZE EVERYONE HAS GONE HOME, HE DIDNT GET THE MEMO. SCORES IN OPEN NET AND DOES A VICTORY LAP.
Ah tough luck @Enigma_87 - Congrats DC!