Black Sheep Draft SF - Downcast vs Enigma
- Thread starter The Stain
- Start date
Camacho was 20 and deployed on the right flank. Certainly not a prime Camacho
Fair enough could you tell me more about him in terms of legendary performances and calibre of wingers he marked out of the game at his peak?
Cheers, mate. Yeah I obviously agree with Sir Bobby and Xavi coexisting in this midfield.
Our advantage is on both wings and especially on the counter when Best and Ronaldinho are in space. I think we can outscore the opposition and especially if we take the lead we will be very deadly on the counter.
I think our defence is well suited to the danger and Bergomi and Krol are good fits for DC wingers while Vasovic/Maldini pair is also well suited in terms of style to combat Pele.
He was noted for his iron defenses, anticipation and speed, but why he marked an era at Real Madrid and the Spanish national team was, without doubt, his spirit of sacrifice and dedication, their desire to win and charisma that helped teamwork especially. During the 16 years he played for Real Madrid, he won 9 Spanish leagues, 4 Spanish cups (Copa del Rey) and 2 UEFA Europe cups as main titles.
He was really a mad dog chaser.
Just to provide an example
Euro 1984 - Spain reached the final and lost against Platini. Group stage Spain 1-0 West Germany >>>>>>>
Ahem.
Decent fish there that he took down.
Thanks moby which game was that?
74-75 season El Classico at Bernabeau if I'm not wrong.
Edit: How good is your Spanish.
http://deportes.elpais.com/deportes..._533339.html#?ref=rss&format=simple&link=link
Got this bit - "I had nothing to lose. He was the best player in the world, I was a little boy! ".
19 years old, amazing.
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You're the welcome. Below a list of the 'great games' but not easy to find youtube videos only devoted Camacho. I had the same issue when researching about some old-school Bundesliga players.
Real Madrid 6 - 1 Anderlecht (UEFA Cup 84/85)
Real Madrid 3 - 0 Internazionale Milan (UEFA Cup 84/85)
Real Madrid 3 - 1 Videoton (UEFA Cup Final 84/85)
Real Madrid 4 - 1 Borussia Monchengladbach (UEFA Cup 85/86)
Real Madrid 5 - 1 Internazionale Milan (UEFA Cup 85/86)
Real Madrid 5 - 1 FC Koln (UEFA Cup Final 85/86)
Real Madrid 1 - 0 Juventus (European Cup 86/87)
Real Madrid 2 - 0 Red Star Belgrade (European Cup 86/87)
Real Madrid 2 - 0 Napoli (European Cup 87/88)
Camacho is a decent fit for dealing with Best, I think. Top player, tough bastard, etc. Still, Best is obviously capable of causing trouble for him - but I wouldn't regard Camacho as a problem as such.
If you look at it «battle style», however, it's obvious that Enigma comes out on top. You couldn't ask for much more - defensively, tactically - than Krol and Bergomi.
Camacho + Alves is clearly a notch below, without even getting into the «Alves can't defend» thing.
PS It's a thing, though, like it or not. There's no «Bergomi can't defend» thing.
If you look at it «battle style», however, it's obvious that Enigma comes out on top. You couldn't ask for much more - defensively, tactically - than Krol and Bergomi.
Camacho + Alves is clearly a notch below, without even getting into the «Alves can't defend» thing.
PS It's a thing, though, like it or not. There's no «Bergomi can't defend» thing.
Yes I agree with your assessment Chester. I think also the lack of complimentarity in Scirea/Moore partnership in a tight game could also play a part in this.
Typical cliché to say 2 of the top 7 greatest central defenders in the history of the game are incapable to play together because they are comfortable with the ball and were labelled 'sweeper' because they have outstanding leadership skills on and off the pitch: 2 World Cup winners here.
Scirea
Baresi started his career with Italy on the bench because of... Scirea. He was the best defender of the World in the 1st half 1980s. He was a graceful defender of great vision and ball controlling skills and tactical ability. He played the sweeper, or libero, role and in the latter part of his career, Scirea played a more defensive central-defender role, which he excelled at just the same.
Moore
Bobby Moore is one of the most iconic English footballers ever: one of the greatest international defenders of all-time. His greatness has been appeared with a statue outside Wembley stadium. He was admired for his reading of the game and ability to anticipate opposition movement, played as center-back mostly by his genius positional play, as he had uncanny intuitive sense for where the ball was headed. His timing in the tackle was unmatched, and he was rarely off of his feet while winning the ball back for his team. Moore is known as a true leader and gentleman with his fair play. Moore is the best defender in English league 4 times according to reader poll in 1960s and analysis of the 1970s performance. In 1966, He was voted as the fourth best of Ballon D’or, and he was also voted in top ten Ballon'Dor in 1971 and 1972. Moore was voted seventh place the best player in history of World Cup by France Football.
Below, Charlton in 1970 (not his career peak btw)
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And Eusebio is asked here to be a False 9 and Charlton is an attacking midfielder. Xavi isn't a notorious scorer and dribbler.
I'm sorry: I can't get the point.
Why does Maldini-Vasovic offer more 'complimentarity'?
@Downcast I'm not arguing both aren't quality or top players. Of course they are, but they aren't complimentary. They share the same traits and you need a more rugged stopper next to them or a man marker like Brio, Gentile, Bergomi for Juve and the national team.
In a GOATs packed game it's those little things that can disrupt the balance and prove to be decisive because at the other end there are one of the best forwards in the game with excellent goal/game ratio such as Sir Bobby and Eusebio, who won't need many chances.
In a GOATs packed game it's those little things that can disrupt the balance and prove to be decisive because at the other end there are one of the best forwards in the game with excellent goal/game ratio such as Sir Bobby and Eusebio, who won't need many chances.
Because while both Moore (J. Charlton) and Scirea (Brio/Collovati) were better with a pure stopper, who took care of most of the physical battles, allowing them to control the space, take care of the rebounds etc., they won't be able to do that with each other. I would expect Moore to be more advanced and Scirea to sweep in behind, but it's not the best use of Moore. They both are among the 5 best center backs ever, so they are obviously capable of doing pretty much everything at the back, but tactically it's a misfit.
While Vasovic is more physical than Moore and Scirea anyway and he has Maldini, who can play as a stopper without any problems at all.
I'd love to hear why not?
Maldini is as complete defender as you can get really. Vasovic would love to play with him as a partner considering his quality and versatility. He would have no issue at all being a stopper and is closer to his natural game than being a sweeper.
You'd probably use Moore as a stopper in your formation which IMO is a bit of a waste of his qualities in the same sense Dani Alves is playing a reserve role at the back. Both quality players but the biggest asset of their game is taken away IMO.
There's also something I don't think it has been mentioned but Platini and Garrincha to me is also a bit off. Platini thrived in a system with different type of wingers/forwards like Boniek and Bettega, while Garrincha is individualism could be an issue with him in the same system.
In theory - yes, but Platini had played with other ball-hogging players (esp. for France), and Garrincha played with Didi; You have to make compromises in an all-time drafts, and with Pele (has a history of thriving in difficult schemes) and Ronaldo (off the ball movement), and Robson/Rijkaard in midfield, I'd say that it's pretty much perfect.
Yeah indeed you have. Didi and Platini are a bit different players tho. IMO another Ronaldo type of winger(more of a runner) would've been a better fit and would've released Dani Alves attacking game to a better use of him as well.
This isn't a remake draft. No Zona Mista here. No offensive left-back like Cabrini and so on...
Also, I don't see life black or white: either you're sweeper either you're rugged stopper.
Eusebio will be under control because:
- he plays as a false 9 (my understanding of your arrow), an isolated CF here
- I have a stronger defensive midfield comprised of Rijkaard and Robson
- Xavi is the King of the pass but not the king of the dribbles/goals.
- Charlton is marked by Rijkaard here: not easy.
And you think my offensive players need more chances while they have better stats by far?
The ranking in terms of goals
1. PELE - 707 Goals/ 763 Games - 92 caps with Brazil: 77 Goals/30 Assists
2. Cristiano Ronaldo: 581 goals + 194 assists in 841 games
3. Eusebio 511 Goals/ 554 Games
4. PLATINI- Playmaking & Attacking Midfielder - 318 Goals/ 580 Games
5. Ronaldinho 280 goals/728 games
6. Charlton 277 Goals/ 834 Games
7. Best 253 goals / 709 games
8. GARRINCHA - 239 Goals/ 616 Games
What a typical all-time GOAT fest. 
Even Rijkaard and Robson wants to push forward for DC. Moore-Scirea-Alves don't quite work for me either, just not perfect. Voted against Enigma in the last round because I don't like Xavi one bit in that team.
I am all for GOATxperiments but both teams sort have gone beyond that point. One GOAT less on either team and I could see a great team as well.
Even Rijkaard and Robson wants to push forward for DC. Moore-Scirea-Alves don't quite work for me either, just not perfect. Voted against Enigma in the last round because I don't like Xavi one bit in that team. I am all for GOATxperiments but both teams sort have gone beyond that point. One GOAT less on either team and I could see a great team as well.
What I mean is that alongside a rugged stopper you'll bring the best of either Moore and Scirea or such type of player.
I've removed the false 9 on Eusebio as it created a confusion that he's a playmaker as most of the false 9 people would link him to are Messi/Cruyff/Totti etc. He's a complete forward that moves around and likes to drop back(which the arrow symbolizes).
I think our defence is better and much more complimentary. Pele/Garrincha/Ronaldo/Platini are up against GOAT defenders in Maldini, Krol and Bergomi and defensive monsters in Vasovic/Tigana. On the other side Alves and Moore/Scirea are not in the best use which could be enough to gain the advantage, while as good as Camacho I'd back Best to get the better of him.
If you want, then I could say Maldini (his best role was full-back), Krol (his best role is sweeper) and Tigana (a B2B) are 'a bit of a waste of their qualities'
Moore was a LCB at his prime and Dani Alvès a RB at his prime. No positioning adjustment as far as I'm concerned.
Nobody is called 'stopper'. Eusebio will move a lot and will get the treatment he deserves: 2 central defenders and 2 defensive midfielders while Tigana isn't the destroyer type you need to bring the right balance and defensive protection.
Real Madrid under Del Bosque did need a Makélélé to have the right balance between the offensive players (Zidane, Figo, Morientes, Raul, offensive FB) and the defensive ones.
Krol best role wasn't sweeper. He played there at the end of his career. Krol played mostly as a LB but could easily play all across the back. He even played as a right back for Holland with a lot of success. He and Maldini are probably one of the most complete defenders and could play anywhere across the back.
It's not about Moore being a LCB or a RCB it's about playing him with another sweeper in Scirea. It's far from ideal and in a GOAT packed field those little things IMO are decisive in terms of balance and cohesion at the back. Same goes for Bergomi. Our back line is pretty complimentary and doesn't lack the individual class.
Dani Alves has played exclusively as a overlapping attacking full back throughout his career, here he's in Bergomi type of role which doesn't suit him at all. There are lesser players than him who are a much better fit for a defensive full back role.
I wouldn't call Robson a defensive midfield either. Tigana played as a DM and and anchor as you know so he's pretty versatile and is defensive game is what made him great. Of course he provided a lot going forward but the core of his game was the defence.
Sure, you are free to think that Scirea shines only if he plays with a lot of Italian players in a Zona Mista system because he did that throughout his career.
I haven't said some things like:
- Xavi is only made to play for teams that adopt a so-called 'tiki-taka style' with a real anchor (a specialist like Busquets or Xabi Alonso).
- Krol is made to play for a team whose strategy would be called 'Total Football' so it would very unnatural to only focus on Garrincha.
I haven't said some things like:
- Xavi is only made to play for teams that adopt a so-called 'tiki-taka style' with a real anchor (a specialist like Busquets or Xabi Alonso).
- Krol is made to play for a team whose strategy would be called 'Total Football' so it would very unnatural to only focus on Garrincha.
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One of my last posts, I would like to highlight:
- The 'Fear Factor' (Pelé): the creator of the game.
- Pelé and Garrincha: 2 WC won together, 40 games -> 36 Wins 4 Draws. They don't know the term defeat when they're on the pitch together.
- A midfield stronger defensively and physically: B2B Robson+ robust Defensive midfieder Rijkaard > B2B Tigana+ central midfielder Xavi
- Rijkaard and Robson were notably brilliant in a 4-4-2 system. The defensive contribution of Platini is massive bonus (see post 1st page about the battle midfield)
- The refereeing has changed so Bergomi can't act with impunity. Cristiano Ronaldo isn't a gift.
- The greatness and the low centre of gravity of Garrincha can't be ignored even if Krol is a great defender
- Because figure don't lie, there is a clear favourite in terms of statistics.
- The 'Fear Factor' (Pelé): the creator of the game.
- Pelé and Garrincha: 2 WC won together, 40 games -> 36 Wins 4 Draws. They don't know the term defeat when they're on the pitch together.
- A midfield stronger defensively and physically: B2B Robson+ robust Defensive midfieder Rijkaard > B2B Tigana+ central midfielder Xavi
- Rijkaard and Robson were notably brilliant in a 4-4-2 system. The defensive contribution of Platini is massive bonus (see post 1st page about the battle midfield)
- The refereeing has changed so Bergomi can't act with impunity. Cristiano Ronaldo isn't a gift.
- The greatness and the low centre of gravity of Garrincha can't be ignored even if Krol is a great defender
- Because figure don't lie, there is a clear favourite in terms of statistics.
I have something new to say and - despite appearances - I don't like to repeat myself !
I will come back later.
Good luck @Enigma_87
I will come back later.
Good luck @Enigma_87
No mate don't get me wrong. My comments were directed as Moore/Scirea as a fit together, not that they are system players and can't work outside a certain system. Partner either of them with Kohler and it's a great central defense.
Going only by statistics doesn't tell the whole story and besides as stats go to show our team has many diverse goal scoring options and one of the greatest central forwards of the game in Eusebio.
I completely disagree on Bergomi point - he's a defender that played for two decades and retired in the late 90's it's not like he's some oldie goldie
Sir Bobby adds a lot of steel and teamwork to that midfield while we have the better defense overall in terms of cohesion and especially in the fullbacks.
Good luck to you tooI have something new to say and - despite appearances - I don't like to repeat myself !
I will come back later.
Good luck @Enigma_87
I don't really buy the Moore / Scirea criticisms personally - they were both extremely intelligent and well rounded defenders. Suggesting that they need to play next to someone like Kohler to be used effectively does them both a disservice. The only real overlap is that they were both good on the ball.
Moore in particular could play with anyone in my opinion, I'm not sure what holes he had in his game that need to be covered for by his partner.
If you take the '66 World Cup final as an example, there's nothing Moore is doing here that precludes him playing with Scirea. He was an elegant footballer but he was also a physical defender and comfortable winning aerial duels or pushing up to make tackles. I don't see why he couldn't play with anyone.
Moore in particular could play with anyone in my opinion, I'm not sure what holes he had in his game that need to be covered for by his partner.
If you take the '66 World Cup final as an example, there's nothing Moore is doing here that precludes him playing with Scirea. He was an elegant footballer but he was also a physical defender and comfortable winning aerial duels or pushing up to make tackles. I don't see why he couldn't play with anyone.
But like DC said this isn't a remake draft, and you aren't restricted to using the same type of partners.
He can probably argue that Xavi would ideally have another tiki take or a possession based player like Iniesta next to him, and the Xavi - Iniesta partnership was infinitely more crucial in terms of working off each other than the dependancy either Scirea or Moore had with their partners. Charlton is a completely different type of player to Iniesta and apart from them both preferring the left attacking midfield area, they are miles apart tactically and Charlton would never fit in a tiki taka or a huge possession based setup.
Safe to say we can't be critical to that degree or there will be fallouts on both sides. Which is expected in an all time draft at this stage.
Aye, would have understood if it was something like Scirea-Beckenbauer but Moore isn't an out and out sweeper/libero and is rather a very well rounded one. Similar to what Scirea-Nesta would be, which is absolutely fine for me.
I'm not playing tiki taka style mate or huge possession based set up.
To me what set players like Moore and Scirea apart was their brilliant reading of the game, intercepting and anticipating where the ball will end up and timing their tackles in a sense that the would need a bit of distance from the attacker rather than man marking him.
Sure he would come out and intercept the ball like a traditional stopper but IMO robbing the opponent off the ball was not his game. His timing and tackling was more like Rio to me and while he of course is well rounded(on the ball as well) but his style was more relaxed - didn't close defenders down in a way of running and chasing them down, but relied on his anticipation and reading of the game. He didn't rely on the physical aspect of the game(quite contrary to English defenders of the time) and the ball distribution set him apart from the rest.
Don't get me wrong he's no pushover in terms of strength but Eusebio was more rough built and in a physical battle he probably would have the edge. That's why I think a more rugged stopper in that set up next to either Scirea or Moore would be better, especially with a mobile forward like Eusebio rather than 2 sweepers in zone. As you said he is pretty well rounded and can act as a stopper - attacking the first ball and he came out to intercept but from my interpretation and the games I've seen from him it's not his style at all.
That is what Xavi excelled in, so that raises a question right there on his impact in this game.
Don't get me wrong, I have no issues with either Xavi-Charlton or Scirea-Moore, just saying these criticisms are way too harsh.
Well as I've said I didn't meant that they couldn't play with each other, but in a sense that it's an all time draft SF tho - I don't see it as a complimentary partnership. Sure they are both quality individually and well rounded, but there are lesser defenders that could be a better fit in a sense that they can attack the first ball and close down our attackers - something what Jack Charlton did besides Moore and complimented him in that sense.
Our main advantage lies in Best/Ronaldinho against DC fullbacks and IMO even smaller issue like the two CB's being not the best fit with each other amplifies that as it could give us advantage in that zone, especially when Best/Ronaldinho beat their man and run at full pelt at them.
Agreed. More is all around ball-playing CB not a full on Libero. It's interesting that this criticism wasn't levelled at Baresi and Figueroa (for the record I don't have an issue with that either)
Not disagreeing with that but like I said earlier the same can be said about Xavi not playing in his suitable tiki taka or a possession based system while being partnered with players from entirely different tactical schools and you probably won't get the 08-11 Xavi.
Works both ways is all I'm saying.
Because Baresi and Figueroa were also physical beasts, especially the latter, and more complete, imo, than either Scirea or Moore. Plus you can argue that Baresi wasn't a libero - but a more modern interpretation of a center back, as it was Sacchi who left behind the traditional Italian style and reintroduced 4-4-2 and a more modern style of defending.
Costacurta wasn't a physical stopper in Charlton/Brio mold either
In no way is Baresi a physically beast, nor is he massively better than Moore in that regard.
Physical beast? Desailly is a physical beast. Rijkaard is a physical beast. Baresi is many things but that, he is not.
Yeah of course Xavi outside tiki taka was debated a lot in the past, but Xavi did strive in a more direct system in 2008 which was far from possession based and won the player of the tournament award so that was a bit unfair on him(being a system player etc). If you look at Xavi individually he is pretty complete midfielder who can play IMO in all modern system/formations. In essence Xavi was the tiki taka as Cruyff was the representation of Total football on the pitch.
Xavi outside tiki taka has the brain, movement, reading of the game and creativity to play and adapt to any partner IMO, he's a very rare breed of a midfielder and the most complete central midfielder in the last 20-30 years to me.