Black Sheep Draft SF - Downcast vs Enigma

[The Stain]

DOWNCAST

ENIGMA

-

DOWNCAST TACTICS

PELE - “The King of Football”
GARRINCHA - The Greatest RW
Captain PLATINI- Complete #10 with a high work-rate. Assists, Goals & Leadership - 318 Goals/ 580 Games. Ballon d'Or 83,84,85
If you watch on Youtube '83-84 Home Michel Platini vs Manchester United', then you will understand the arrows and why the offensive strategy is harmonious. Perfect guy to combine with Pelé. Long passing skills for Cr7 and Garrincha
Cristiano Ronaldo - You know who
RIJKAARD- Central Midfielder - The required midfieder to limit the influence of Charlton
ROBSON- Greatest British central midfielder- Complete B2B
CAMACHO - The Greatest Spanish LB. Top-level strength, stamina and aggressive style of play.
MOORE - LCB- WC 1966 Winner. SAF, Pelé and Beckenbauer considered him as the greatest central defender. Capable to get Tevez under control.
SCIREA - RCB - WC 1982 Winner - One of the best defenders the world has ever seen. Successful partnership with Platini
DANI ALVES - Complete RB
CLEMENCE - GK

---> Pelé and Garrincha never lost together on the pitch in 40 games: 36 Wins and 4 Draws - 2 World Cups won together
---> Platini and Scirea: successful partnership with Juventus the 80s
---> Confidence in my Midfield to get the advantage

Please click HERE to know more about these players!!

ENIGMA TACTICS

PLAYERS PROFILES:

Formation: 4-3-3
Style: direct approach, use the movement of Sir Bobby and Eusebio up front, counter at every opportunity when getting the ball back.

Some player roles:
Eusebio - complete, mobile forward - dropping deeper making space for Best and Ronaldinho to come inside and Sir Bobby to charge the box, drag opposition CB's out of position, while of course scoring goals himself.
Velibor Vasovic - complete ball playing defender
Paolo Maldini - complete defender
Jean Tigana - defensive midfielder. His role is mainly defensive one, shielding the defence and supporting the midfield.
Sir Bobby Charlton - making runs in the box scoring goals, participating in both phases giving steel to the midfield.
Guiseppe Bergomi - one of the best defenders as a defensive RB who will counter C.Ronaldo runs in the box.
Xavi - central position - playmaker, heartbeat of the team, control the tempo, look for openings get the ball to the attacking trio.

Key points:
- Excellent defensive line composed of two solid defensively full backs (Bergomi/Krol).
- Complimentary (Maldini/Vasovic) pair. One of the best modern day defenders in Godin and all time Maldini.
- Midfield full of defensive nous(Tigana), playmaking ability (Xavi), eye for a goal (Charlton). Excellent passers and capable of providing defensive cover and also participating in the build up.
- One of the best finishers in the game (Eusebio), flanked by trickery and pace from one of the best winger/wide forwards in the game (Ronaldinho/Best).

Why we should win:
- one of the best attack in the draft - full of trickery, pace and complimented by the excellent goal output from midfield by Sir Bobby Charlton.
- Solid defensive line with complimentary pairings and full backs that have the pace and defensive game to counter Downcast wingers.
- Best/Ronaldinho against Camacho and Dani Alves. Ronaldinho has played against Dani Alves with success and both wingers will look to run at Downcast full backs to create openings and chances for themselves.

 

[The Stain]

@Downcast @Enigma_87

Good luck, fellas.

 

[antohan]

Wow, I was admiring how much damage Enigma could inflict on Downcast's defence... and then noticed he forgot to have a midfield.

 

[antohan]

Goalfest this one.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Wow, I was admiring how much damage Enigma could inflict on Downcast's defence... and then noticed he forgot to have a midfield.

Precisely.

The winger vs fullbacks will be heavily against Downcast, but then Enigma's midfield is just patched together. Looks very static and totally pass dependant.

 

[Enigma_87]

First of - good luck @Downcast should be an entertaining one.

 

[harms]

The criticism of Downcast's side remains the same - pointless use of Alves and uncomplimentary Scirea - Moore combo. Although without a classical battering ram upfront for Enigma you can say that they're not overly exposed, again.

Alves vs Ronaldinho is a clear issue, and Eusebio will require for Rijkaard and Robson to help out a lot - you can't have him running at your defenders at full speed.

Cristiano is a great addition to the attacking unit. With the big names there is always a chance of overdoing it, but Cristiano's off the ball movement should be perfect for Platini and Garrincha (who'll probably have some comparability issues, but it shouldn't be critical), and Pele is smart enough to gel it all together.


Vasovic in midfield, on the other hand, doesn't look like a perfect fit, even though he played as one. It's probably has more to do with the picture itself and the fact that using him as a sweeper will make Xavi and Charlton look exposed; and they probably are, as Downcast's midfield balance is absolutely spot on.

 

[Enigma_87]

Wow, I was admiring how much damage Enigma could inflict on Downcast's defence... and then noticed he forgot to have a midfield.

I know that Vasovic role would be under scrutiny as I have an option of putting Tigana as holding with a more designated #10 this game in Platini that I'm against. However Vasovic as holding is something that is not really uncommon in his game. He will generally sit in front of the defence and sweep the danger Downcast attacking unit would provide.

I'm going for a more Beckenbauer'escque role for Vasovic here which he did play quite often both as DM box to box or an anchor.

I'm going for a more direct approach and clearly going at DC flanks and putting Best against Camacho and Dani Alves against Ronaldinho where the biggest advantage we have lie. I think those two matchups are decisive for our favor while we saturate the central area in front of our goal where DC strength lie.

I disagree that the midfield of Xavi and Sir Bobby would lack support - that is the whole idea of having Vasovic as a holder. Pele also loved to drop back and generally his bread and butter is dropping back and that was the main reason having Vasovic in the hole where most likely Platini and Pele would occupy.

 

[Enigma_87]

Precisely.

The winger vs fullbacks will be heavily against Downcast, but then Enigma's midfield is just patched together. Looks very static and totally pass dependant.

As I've said I expected some of those comments since Vasovic is known to be a sweeper rather than anchor. But his game is really an anchor role which IMO doesn't take away from his game. His role is clearly defensive one to support the midfield duo.

I had similar objections when I've tried Beckenbauer in a similar role a while ago, but if we go with a modern formation which has an anchor dropping back (Mascherano/Busquets type) is something what Vasovic will exactly thrive on. As a sweeper for Ajax he often pushed forward to that area which is depicted and supported the midfield while one of the full backs and his CB partner stayed back. Playing as an anchor or sweeper isn't exactly that different IMO, as you are tasked with similar responsibilities just pushing your position on football pitch by 10 meters or so.

 

[Enigma_87]

Vasovic in midfield, on the other hand, doesn't look like a perfect fit, even though he played as one. It's probably has more to do with the picture itself and the fact that using him as a sweeper will make Xavi and Charlton look exposed; and they probably are, as Downcast's midfield balance is absolutely spot on.

Vasovic supported the midfield in a similar way for Ajax. I had the idea of using him as an anchor since the beginning of the games(when needed and facing a more classic #10). His role is purely defensive and what he excelled at - reading of the game, intercepting and getting the ball back.

My approach is a bit simple in terms of gameplan - get the ball back, congest the middle of the pitch and the area in front of the defence where most of Downcast attackers would be concentrated and exploiting the space between his full backs and Scirea/Moore.

As for classic battering ram - although Eusebio is not your typical Vieri he's pretty strong and physical. I'd say he can overpower in that sense DC defensive pair. He was built like a tank although relatively small frame.

 

[harms]

As for classic battering ram - although Eusebio is not your typical Vieri he's pretty strong and physical. I'd say he can overpower in that sense DC defensive pair. He was built like a tank although relatively small frame.

I know, but with him not usually playing with his back towards the goal he becomes not only Scirea/Moore's problem, but also Downcast's midfield. More of a style issue rather than me questioning his physicality, which would be plain stupid.

 

[Enigma_87]

I know, but with him not usually playing with his back towards the goal he becomes not only Scirea/Moore's problem, but also Downcast's midfield. More of a style issue rather than me questioning his physicality, which would be plain stupid.

yeah of course, but IMO our game here is and DC weakness is clearly the space around DC central defenders. If we create enough 1 on 1 opportunities for Best and Ronaldinho we can pull his defenders wide and open up gaps for Eusebio and Sir Bobby, especially on a counter and a finisher like him doesn't need many chances.

Furthermore on Vasovic - under Michels he would often push forward leaving two markers behind him to support the midfield, making the formation from 4-3-3 to 3-4-3 at the base of a diamond.

Basically his role is not something he would feel uncomfortable at doing so - if we look at the libero role it's basically a last resort in your defence protecting the goal behind 2 markers. This is basically the same although he's protecting the midfild at a base of a diamond if you can say(a classic anchor) where his defensive game and intelligence could be used to the best.

The idea is not to isolate out midfield, but quite the opposite, fill the gaps and congest the area most of the action will take place when DC attacks.

 

[antohan]

I know that Vasovic role would be under scrutiny as I have an option of putting Tigana as holding with a more designated #10 this game in Platini that I'm against. However Vasovic as holding is something that is not really uncommon in his game. He will generally sit in front of the defence and sweep the danger Downcast attacking unit would provide.

I'm going for a more Beckenbauer'escque role for Vasovic here which he did play quite often both as DM box to box or an anchor.

I'm going for a more direct approach and clearly going at DC flanks and putting Best against Camacho and Dani Alves against Ronaldinho where the biggest advantage we have lie. I think those two matchups are decisive for our favor while we saturate the central area in front of our goal where DC strength lie.

I disagree that the midfield of Xavi and Sir Bobby would lack support - that is the whole idea of having Vasovic as a holder. Pele also loved to drop back and generally his bread and butter is dropping back and that was the main reason having Vasovic in the hole where most likely Platini and Pele would occupy.

The arrow is wrong then. You can't have two roles at the same time. Was talking about this with The Stain a few days ago:

1) Libero: brings the ball out of the defence, can playmake from deep or join the attack (e.g. Beckenbauer, or Scirea primarily for Juve)

2) Sweeper defender (for lack of an established term): sweeps up behind the defenders, last line of defence (e.g. Scirea's primary focus with Italy, or what Figueroa is doing in that 1974 video you've all seen left behind as a one-man defensive unit)

3) Sweeper midfielder (again, for lack of an established term): this is a sweeper sitting in front of the defence, shielding it and first and foremost tasked with dropping into defence to provide cover. Typically used with aggressive fullbacks which require the CB moving to the flank for cover and this chap dropping back to cover. E.g. Carsten Ramelow for Leverkusen.

4) Defensive midfielder/Anchor: this guy is positioned similar to the above, protects the defence, except his job is primarily about minding oncoming traffic in central midfield, be it #10, AMs or B2B runners.

My interpretation of Vasovic there is 3, and frankly it doesn't make sense as I don't see Bergomi going anywhere and Maldini-Godín-Bergomi is enough when Krol ventures forward. What you need is 4 and, frankly, Vasovic is an underwhelming option. I can see the logic if it's a personal detail on Platini, but I'd expect a proper DM minding that space and not running around like a headless chicken considering the rest of the midfield is lightweight.

 

[Ecstatic]

Good luck @Enigma_87

 

[Ecstatic]

Battle Midfield - Part 1 Downcast - a midfield ready for the battle

Michel Platini - #10 - A brilliant attacking midfielder who also loves to organize the game...and defend/tackle

Let's analyze a single game: YouTube video '83-84 Home Michel Platini vs Manchester United'

Long passing skills -leading to a beautiful assist



Platini and Cr7



Playmaking skills: Platini --> Pelé --> Platini



Tackles and defensive support





And I could go on...

Bryan Robson - #8 - The Box-To-Box known for his fighting spirit

Great tackles, ball winning and passing abilities. He also was a good header of the ball and his engine enabled him to get to the goal.

Spoiler: Fighter

Frank Rijkaard -#6 - the best defensive midfielder on the pitch

A strong and robust guy



Dani Alves- Rijkaard-Scirea-Rijkaard-Platini-Rijkaard-Garrincha




And I won't talk about his passing skills

Battle Midfield - Part 2 The opposing midfield is an Enigma

- At his prime, Vasovic was a sweeper so I don't think he is the perfect man to manage an extremely mobile player like Platini.
- Xavi is one of the greatest central midfielders. Extremely clever. Exceptional passing skills. However, he isn't known for his physical impact and tackles.
- Charlton will take the leadership and frustrate Xavi whose main asset is his playmaking skills...

A robust box-to-box or/and a central holding midfielder (a specialist) would have been the welcome in this context.

 

[Ecstatic]

@Downcast @Enigma_87

Good luck, fellas.

Thanks

 

[Enigma_87]

The arrow is wrong then. You can't have two roles at the same time. Was talking about this with The Stain a few days ago:

1) Libero: brings the ball out of the defence, can playmake from deep or join the attack (e.g. Beckenbauer, or Scirea primarily for Juve)

2) Sweeper defender (for lack of an established term): sweeps up behind the defenders, last line of defence (e.g. Scirea's primary focus with Italy, or what Figueroa is doing in that 1974 video you've all seen left behind as a one-man defensive unit)

3) Sweeper midfielder (again, for lack of an established term): this is a sweeper sitting in front of the defence, shielding it and first and foremost tasked with dropping into defence to provide cover. Typically used with aggressive fullbacks which require the CB moving to the flank for cover and this chap dropping back to cover. E.g. Carsten Ramelow for Leverkusen.

4) Defensive midfielder/Anchor: this guy is positioned similar to the above, protects the defence, except his job is primarily about minding oncoming traffic in central midfield, be it #10, AMs or B2B runners.

My interpretation of Vasovic there is 3, and frankly it doesn't make sense as I don't see Bergomi going anywhere and Maldini-Godín-Bergomi is enough when Krol ventures forward. What you need is 4 and, frankly, Vasovic is an underwhelming option. I can see the logic if it's a personal detail on Platini, but I'd expect a proper DM minding that space and not running around like a headless chicken considering the rest of the midfield is lightweight.

The whole idea behind Vasovic was #4. I can see the whole discussion revolving to Vasovic unfamiliar position, which I don't want to concentrate on.

Instead I'd go with the other formation/lineup I had in mind:

In comes Tigana and off goes Godin with Vasovic taking his place.

@The Stain can you update the OP please.

for those interested here's a bit more info on what #4 and the idea behind putting Vasovic there was:

That passage could have been about any number of great players; the late Gaetano Scirea, Velibor Vasović, Ruud Krol, Matthias Sammer or the archetypal libero, Franz Beckenbauer.

Unfortunately, these players no longer exist in modern football. There is an argument, quite rightly, that liberos still exist, but that we now call them ‘ball-playing defenders’. However, to liken them to ball-playing defenders is to forget the true artistry of the libero. Perhaps it is part of the development of football in general away from ‘artists’ such as Juan Román Riquelme and towards more system-focused artists such as Luka Modrić, but to suggest that a player such as Chris Smalling is an evolution of Gaetano Scirea somehow seems wrong.

Not that these aren’t good players, but the role that they play seems like a regression. With the development of the classic number 10, you can argue that they’ve become more mobile, more tactically aware, and more useful in the defensive phase. With the libero, you can’t argue this. They aren’t more mobile, they aren’t more useful defensively, and they aren’t more tactically aware.

Of course, there is a reason that liberos lost their place. Along with German football, the libero is most associated with calcio, and it had become a staple of Italian football since the sweeper became widespread in the 1960s, eventually developing to become the libero after Franz Beckenbauer’s development of the sweeper position in the early 1970s. With his hatred of specialists, it seems fitting that the man who ended the reign of the libero as the cornerstone of Italian football was Arrigo Sacchi during his reign as manager of AC Milan in the late 1980s.

Moving from the classic Italian three at the back system with two man markers and a free covering libero, to a highly systematised 4-4-2, Sacchi yearned for the development of universal players who could be the playmaker at any time. Clearly, the libero had no place in this system, and was phased out, with Franco Baresi becoming a standard – if you can ever call Baresi standard – centre back. It is hard to argue with Sacchi’s methods, as they brought the Rossoneri the scudetto and two consecutive European Cups before he and his players became burnt out and went their separate ways.

However we must ask why the libero no longer has a place in modern football. Some have argued that the development of the offside rule makes a libero a liability in defence, but surely this is no different to any covering defender who sits a little deeper than the rest of the defensive line, before stepping up to make a tackle or complete the offside trap. Indeed, teams who use a consistent and efficient offside trap are becoming rarer in modern football. So, why can’t a libero be used?

Others have argued that the rapid increase in the aggression of pressing would mean that the libero simply didn’t have the time to pick out passes in the way Franz Beckenbauer or Miodrag Belodedici did. However, this question is nonsensical, as it would imply that any role that requires time on the ball would become extinct as a result of pressing. The playmaker hasn’t become extinct; it has simply required players to become smarter and faster when in possession of the ball. Instead of picking up the ball and looking for a pass, playmakers are now required to look for the pass before they receive the ball, meaning that they can avoid wasting precious time upon receiving the ball. Much like the playmaker, the libero would simply need to become faster mentally in order to adapt to the rigours of the modern game.

Furthermore, modern football prioritises the use of a deep-lying playmaker. All of the great sides of the past decade have included a player who can control the play from deep, be it Xavi, Busquets, Schweinsteiger, Carrick, Scholes, Xabi Alonso or Pirlo. Take the most recent winners of the Champions League, Barcelona, and you see a midfield trio of Sergio Busquets, Andrés Iniesta and Ivan Rakitić, all of whom are extremely competent in starting the play from deep. Why can’t the libero do this job?

Allowing a defender the license to step up into midfield when in possession could mean that a midfielder could be replaced by an attacker, or that midfielder could push up with encouragement to attack. This would possibly turn a 4-2-3-1 into a 3-3-1-3 or 3-3-3-1. With two defenders to cover the forward movement of the libero and wing backs to cover the wide areas, the libero would in no way be a defensive liability, and could be the deep-lying playmaker without the need for a specialised player in defensive midfield.

But then again seeing the first responses I can see the argument revolving on that role which is not the main idea or my tactic for this game.

 

[Ecstatic]

1. The criticism of Downcast's side remains the same - pointless use of Alves and uncomplimentary Scirea - Moore combo. Although without a classical battering ram upfront for Enigma you can say that they're not overly exposed, again.

2. Alves vs Ronaldinho is a clear issue, and Eusebio will require for Rijkaard and Robson to help out a lot - you can't have him running at your defenders at full speed.

3.Cristiano is a great addition to the attacking unit. With the big names there is always a chance of overdoing it, but Cristiano's off the ball movement should be perfect for Platini and Garrincha (who'll probably have some comparability issues, but it shouldn't be critical), and Pele is smart enough to gel it all together.

4.Vasovic in midfield, on the other hand, doesn't look like a perfect fit, even though he played as one. It's probably has more to do with the picture itself and the fact that using him as a sweeper will make Xavi and Charlton look exposed; and they probably are, as Downcast's midfield balance is absolutely spot on.

1. My answer will remain the same! Scirea was a sweeper at his prime but at the end of his career was great as RCB in a system with 4 defenders. Moore is more robust and aggresive.

2. The Ballon d'Or Ronaldinho is a challenging task for Dani Alvès, of course. If you look at the history of the Classicos, Dani Alvès delivers clean performances against another Ballon d'or like Cr7. I'm confident in his ability to limit the impact of Ronaldinho. Let's say it isn't necessary to be one of the top 10 greatest RB of All-Times to do the job. A right-back like Olguin won the WC and nullifies players like Rensenbrink at the WC 1978.

3. I deeply believe the attacking unit is harmonious: Pelé and Platini are collective players despite appearances and I expect them to combine with each other. Garrincha-Pelé: proven partnrship. Cristiano Ronaldo would benefit from the passing skills of Platini and would be the welcome in the penalty area.

4. Enigma just changed his midfield.

 

[Ecstatic]

My full-back are clearly under-appreciated.

You can't make an All-Time 11 Spain without Xavi............ and Camacho, a living legend of Real Madrid!

Camacho is the LB I need: an aggressive defender who will play against a fantastic Georgie Best who plays here on the right and so will tend to cut inside as he did against Benfica: European Cup final 1968.

 

[Ecstatic]

On the other hand, I don't think Garrincha and Cristiano Ronaldo are easy tasks for Krol and Bergomi...

I understand Krol is asked to attack: adventurous job.

 

[harms]

- Charlton will take the leadership and frustrate Xavi whose main asset is his playmaking skills...

That's hardly true though

 

[antohan]

The whole idea behind Vasovic was #4. I can see the whole discussion revolving to Vasovic unfamiliar position, which I don't want to concentrate on.

Instead I'd go with the other formation/lineup I had in mind:

In comes Tigana and off goes Godin with Vasovic taking his place.

@The Stain can you update the OP please.

for those interested here's a bit more info on what #4 and the idea behind putting Vasovic there was:


But then again seeing the first responses I can see the argument revolving on that role which is not the main idea or my tactic for this game.

I think that quote actually supports what I was saying.

Vasovic is far better in that new role and looks miles better than Godín did (and I rate him highly, obviously) precisely because he can step out in his usual libero role. While Godín is a great CB, his presence there compared to Vasovic isn't far from being in line with: "to suggest that a player such as Chris Smalling is an evolution of Gaetano Scirea somehow seems wrong". Godín isn't an evolution of Vasovic, probably a better defender, but your team would be better served with the better footballer.

I don't like seeing Tigana in a purely defensive role, but your midfield is now far better with Vasovic being able to step out into that hole and Tigana being able to mind the midfield battle and join the attack, if only less than usual. You have unquestionably strengthened your spine there.

 

[harms]

2. The Ballon d'Or Ronaldinho is a challenging task for Dani Alvès, of course. If you look at the history of the Classicos, Dani Alvès delivers clean performances against another Ballon d'or like Cr7. I'm confident in his ability to limit the impact of Ronaldinho

If you look at the history of Classicos, you'll see that Cristiano destroyed Alves as often as Alves produced good defensive performances against him. And I can't see any similarity between Ronaldinho and Ronaldo apart from them both being Ballon D'Or winners.

Without his attacking game, Alves is, really, an average right back, and Garrincha robs him of his best qualities.

 

[Ecstatic]

Red Café...Charlton... Let's discuss the best environment for Sir Bobby Charlton.

Also the opportunity to speak about England 2-1 Portugal SF of the WC 1966. Bobby scored 2 goals and Eusebio only scored a penalty kick.

European Cup 1968 Final

I have the feeling that Charlton deserves a defensively stronger environment and to be the only one playmaker to support the offensive trio.

 

[Enigma_87]

I think that quote actually supports what I was saying.

Vasovic is far better in that new role and looks miles better than Godín did (and I rate him highly, obviously) precisely because he can step out in his usual libero role. While Godín is a great CB, his presence there compared to Vasovic isn't far from being in line with: "to suggest that a player such as Chris Smalling is an evolution of Gaetano Scirea somehow seems wrong". Godín isn't an evolution of Vasovic, probably a better defender, but your team would be better served with the better footballer.

I don't like seeing Tigana in a purely defensive role, but your midfield is now far better with Vasovic being able to step out into that hole and Tigana being able to mind the midfield battle and join the attack, if only less than usual. You have unquestionably strengthened your spine there.

I was looking since the beginning of the draft of the "Beckenbauer role" and Vasovic was as close as one can get. I've used Beckenbauer in a role like that in a draft before, but ended up explaining and going back and forth with what he's supposed to do, so I really didn't want to go the same road again.

With Tigana the approach is really straightforward and his defensive astute is without question. It's easier on the eye in terms of formation graphic as well. Sure he has to take most of the defensive role in midfield, but that is his best quality and with a solid defence behind him I think he'll do pretty well(also with the support he's getting from Xavi and Sir Bobby).

 

[Enigma_87]

That's hardly true though

Aye, Xavi is one of the best team players around, he doesn't need the limelight in a sense Maradona, Di Stefano do.

If you look at the history of Classicos, you'll see that Cristiano destroyed Alves as often as Alves produced good defensive performances against him. And I can't see any similarity between Ronaldinho and Ronaldo apart from them both being Ballon D'Or winners.

Without his attacking game, Alves is, really, an average right back, and Garrincha robs him of his best qualities.

I rate Dani Alves and IMO is solid defensively due to his athleticism, but against Ronaldinho he will struggle as he did in the past. Same goes for Camacho who is obviously better defensively but against Best 1 on 1 will be extremely hard for him to contain him.

 

[Enigma_87]

Red Café...Charlton... Let's discuss the best environment for Sir Bobby Charlton.

Also the opportunity to speak about England 2-1 Portugal SF of the WC 1966. Bobby scored 2 goals and Eusebio only scored a penalty kick.

European Cup 1968 Final

I have the feeling that Charlton deserves a defensively stronger environment and to be the only one playmaker to support the offensive trio.

Sir Bobby provides a lot of support to the midfield. He can and will run the whole game and I don't think he's a classic #10 in a sense you are describing him.

 

[Ecstatic]

If you look at the history of Classicos, you'll see that Cristiano destroyed Alves as often as Alves produced good defensive performances against him. And I can't see any similarity between Ronaldinho and Ronaldo apart from them both being Ballon D'Or winners.

Without his attacking game, Alves is, really, an average right back, and Garrincha robs him of his best qualities.

I'm talking about Prime Dani Alvès at his peak

As you know, FB have always the support of a teamate to manager a great winger. Here, Rijkaard will assist Dani Alvès.

We have already spoken about Dani Alvès in the previous game so it's useless to go into circles. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[Enigma_87]

I'm talking about Prime Dani Alvès at his peak

As you know, FB have always the support of a teamate to manager a great winger. Here, Rijkaard will assist Dani Alvès.

We have already spoken about Dani Alvès in the previous game so it's useless to go into circles. Let's agree to disagree.

Prime Alves is really appreciated for his attacking game first and foremost. Here you are restricting him to a defensive role which is not really suiting him well. Especially in an all time draft and especially when he's up against Ronaldinho, who he struggled with in the past.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

........Charlton........
...Vasovic...Tigana....

imo is more balanced than the current formation, which is impossible now.

 

[Moby]

I rate Dani Alves and IMO is solid defensively due to his athleticism, but against Ronaldinho he will struggle as he did in the past.

Prime Alves is really appreciated for his attacking game first and foremost.

Bloody hell, the tune has changed and how!

 

[Enigma_87]

Bloody hell, the tune has changed and how!

Not really mate, I rate Alves defensively and have picked him in the past(one of the few to defend that part of his game). But here as a restricted full back behind Garrincha and up against Ronaldinho IMO he'll struggle

 

[Ecstatic]

I prefer Tigana as a box-to-box but I have to say he would do a more useful job than Vasovic tbh.

Euro 1984 Final with Camacho, Tigana and Platini.

Sir Bobby provides a lot of support to the midfield. He can and will run the whole game and I don't think he's a classic #10 in a sense you are describing him.

I know and agree with you here regarding Sir Bobby Charlton: he is a complete offensive midfielder like Platini.

I was referring to the other midfielders. I was just saying I would have preferred a midfield with full powers given to him.

 

[Enigma_87]

I prefer Tigana as a box-to-box but I have to say he would do a more useful job than Vasovic tbh.

Euro 1984 Final with Camacho, Tigana and Platini.

I know and agree with you here regarding Sir Bobby Charlton: he is a complete offensive midfielder like Platini.

I was referring to the other midfielders. I was just saying I would have preferred a midfield with full powers given to him.

Yes, I know that I'm restricting Tigana's attacking game here, but with Sir Bobby I gain a lot of edge in attack than I would've with another DM and putting Tigana in more advanced box to box role.


As for Sir Bobby I think him and Xavi compliment pretty well. He has the energy, pace and buzz while Xavi will be in his natural role. Neither restricts the other in any way.

 

[Ecstatic]

1. Aye, Xavi is one of the best team players around, he doesn't need the limelight in a sense Maradona, Di Stefano do.

2. I rate Dani Alves and IMO is solid defensively due to his athleticism, but against Ronaldinho he will struggle as he did in the past. Same goes for Camacho who is obviously better defensively but against Best 1 on 1 will be extremely hard for him to contain him.

1. Xavi is the perfect player in terms of team spirit. Of course, 2 playmakers like Charlton and Xavi can live together but it means a huge burden for the 3rd central midfielder.
Iniesta-Xavi means a player like Busquets with a very restricted role. Tigana is more restricted than Dani Alvès.

2. And what about Garrincha vs Krol and Bergomi vs Cr7?

 

[Enigma_87]

1. Xavi is the perfect player in terms of team spirit. Of course, 2 playmakers like Charlton and Xavi can live together but it means a huge burden for the 3rd central midfielder.
Iniesta-Xavi means a player like Busquets with a very restricted role. Tigana is more restricted than Dani Alvès.

2. And what about Garrincha vs Krol and Bergomi vs Cr7?

1. Tigana as you know is IMO even more defensively solid than Busquets as he is more energetic and dynamic midfielder. Of course he'll take care of most of the defensive game, but it's not like that role is unfamiliar with him as he did that before the introduction of Fernandes in Caree Magique.

2. I think Bergomi is excellent fit for the Ronaldo you are using(I think it's the Real one) - who is a great fit for cutting in Ronaldo. Same for Krol - very agile, fast (clocked around 11s in a sprint) and he one of the greatest and most complete defenders. Could actually play all across the back line and in midfield.

 

[antohan]

I was looking since the beginning of the draft of the "Beckenbauer role" and Vasovic was as close as one can get. I've used Beckenbauer in a role like that in a draft before, but ended up explaining and going back and forth with what he's supposed to do, so I really didn't want to go the same road again.

Personally, I'd rather see them both starting from the back. Why? Because if you play a back four and add Beckenbauer/Vasovic in front you are negating an important part of what made them special: the extra man, the influence they could have in different areas of the pitch and phases of play while only accounting for 1/11.

Before someone mentions I have played him in midfield, that's because I wanted precisely that: the 1966 midfield Beckenbauer, which was freaking awesome too, but if you want the libero play the libero not some luxury DM. It's wasteful.

Mind you, the main problem here wasn't Vasovic not being used to the fullest, but the role he was seemingly assigned tracking back to cover in defence when there was nobody in midfield who could fill the hole he would leave behind in defensive phases. Yes, Charlton works hard and Xavi runs around pressing but Rijkaard and Robson would murder them (and that's assuming Vasovic is stuck to Platini and effectively nullifying him). In Tigana they will find a match.

Downcast was simply running through your midfield. I appreciate you don't want to carry on discussing one point, let alone one you've dealt with, but if I insist it's because it is precisely in such GOAT-packed games that tactical nuances can make enormous differences. It's no criticism of your team (since it has changed anyway), more a case of digging deeper into this supposed "Beckenbauer role".

 

[Ecstatic]

Yes, I know that I'm restricting Tigana's attacking game here, but with Sir Bobby I gain a lot of edge in attack than I would've with another DM and putting Tigana in more advanced box to box role.

I understand your rationale.

As for Sir Bobby I think him and Xavi compliment pretty well. He has the energy, pace and buzz while Xavi will be in his natural role. Neither restricts the other in any way.

I agree with you here.

As explained in a post above here, my midfield is stronger defensively in terms of physical impact.

Unfortunately, the game tonight isn't Barcelona-Alaves but Downcast-Enigma.

--> Rijkaard is a beast
--> Robson is an aggressive midfielder full of energy. Xavi tend to suffer against midfield with a strong physical impact.

France 3-1 Spain - World Cup 2006

 

[Enigma_87]

Personally, I'd rather see them both starting from the back. Why? Because if you play a back four and add Beckenbauer/Vasovic in front you are negating an important part of what made them special: the extra man, the influence they could have in different areas of the pitch and phases of play while only accounting for 1/11.

Before someone mentions I have played him in midfield, that's because I wanted precisely that: the 1966 midfield Beckenbauer, which was freaking awesome too, but if you want the libero play the libero not some luxury DM. It's wasteful.

Mind you, the main problem here wasn't Vasovic not being used to the fullest, but the role he was seemingly assigned tracking back to cover in defence when there was nobody in midfield who could fill the hole he would leave behind in defensive phases. Yes, Charlton works hard and Xavi runs around pressing but Rijkaard and Robson would murder them (and that's assuming Vasovic is stuck to Platini and effectively nullifying him). In Tigana they will find a match.

Downcast was simply running through your midfield. I appreciate you don't want to carry on discussing one point, let alone one you've dealt with, but if I insist it's because it is precisely in such GOAT-packed games that tactical nuances can make enormous differences. It's no criticism of your team (since it has changed anyway), more a case of digging deeper into this supposed "Beckenbauer role".

The idea behind that "Beckenbauer role" was in games like this with Pele, Cruyff, Platini, Maradona GOAT forwards/#10 and putting Vasovic in a zone where most of the action will take place and generally protect the defence by sniffing the danger before they get near the box or receive the ball. In essence most of the forwards that would likely be picked like to drop deep(Pele in this case) hence putting Vasovic as a sweeper will result in exactly stressing on that hole left behind. Vasovic is one of the exemplary players who would provide that support and was often compared to him in terms of role/area that occupied, organizing the defence, supporting the midfield and taking the ball out of defence.

Either way it I think the discussion would revolve around Vasovic in that position rather than his actual role.

With Tigana as the DM the set up is also easier on the eye and won't take away from the defensive steel and adds more energy. As I've said I considered both formations from the off and had them as screens, but wanted to put Vasovic in the spotlight in a position that IMO he would excel in.

However it's better with the new one in terms of proceedings rather than revolving on that role.

In this game IMO this would take the focus off DC full backs and IMO where our biggest advantage lies which is not something beneficial to my side to be honest.

 

[Raees]

@Enigma_87 glad you made the change as I was not convinced before that and was edging towards DC.

We're not against each other so I can speak my mind more freely now and I think any argument that Xavi and Sir Bobby can't coexist in the same midfield is flawed.

Xavi worked best with another playmaker like Iniesta to the left of him and Sir Bobby is an upgrade to Iniesta imo. Obviously he's a more stronger character and dominant and more of a ball hog so you lose that tiki taka element but once they get used to each other two intelligent Players like that would gel well and get the best out of each other. Having Xavi there would free up Charlton to operate further forward and they're such a classy pair, I can see them yielding greater control over the flow of the game than Platini can on the other side.

Scirea and Bobby I think is a good matchup against Eusebio.. much better pairing than my own pair was against him in terms of tactical matchup.

Alves is a definite weak link though against prime Ronaldinho and I can see an opening there.

I remember seeing a video of Camocho struggle against Dzajic and Best in his prime I think would do him.

That said Garrincha Cristiano and Pele is a phenomenal attack and as good as Enigma backline is, I can see that front three scoring.

Interesting game.