Black Sheep Draft QF - Raees vs. Enigma

With players at peak, who wins?

  • Total voters
    32
  • Poll closed .
Raees said:
For me to get best out of Ronaldinho you need an Etoo or a Ronaldo stretching the play for him.

For me Eusebio is definitely a striker so no issues with him up front but he definitely drops deep to pick up the ball and that is majority of his way of attacking which is different to Van Basten who can do that but knows when to stay out of the way and provide verticality to the attack.

Another thing which hasn't been spoken about is the goal threat of Gerson from long range which could be a decisive factor in a game like this (193 goals). That's brilliant numbers. Jairzinho also has proven goal threat and ability to destroy all time great full backs .. it is a very complimentary attack where every part fits together well.

My own perceived weakness is CB because I lack names which scan votes would know much about but in the context of the match up I don't think they would be found wanting as style wise I think the play will be in front of them a lot.

It's been consistently a difference of three votes all game - so frustrating! I will be unlikely to contribute for rest of game. So lads if you haven't put in your vote, no worries but your thoughts on the game would be appreciated!

@Joga Bonito @Gio @prath92 @Balu @oneniltothearsenal

My own perceived weakness is CB because I lack names which scan votes would know much about but in the context of the match up I don't think they would be found wanting as style wise I think the play will be in front of them a lot.
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I can't see what Eto'o does more than certain Eusebio. They are much alike - both can stretch the play, both have fantastic movement and pace and are not exactly the target man in the box type. Only difference is that Eusebio is significantly better.

For all the talk about our midfield to me Deschamps and Gerson pairing is a bit off and lacks the dynamics and explosiveness that our midfield does with the presence of Tigana.

There's also something that I need to mention again when comparing the defences and that's Krol/Vasovic pairing which is successful one and proven combo. Same goes for the attack in Charlton and Best and midfield in Xavi/Ronaldinho.

I feel we have more quality across the park and just edge it in every line which should give us the victory.
 
Enigma_87 said:
I can't see what Eto'o does more than certain Eusebio. They are much alike - both can stretch the play, both have fantastic movement and pace and are not exactly the target man in the box type. Only difference is that Eusebio is significantly better.

For all the talk about our midfield to me Deschamps and Gerson pairing is a bit off and lacks the dynamics and explosiveness that our midfield does with the presence of Tigana.

There's also something that I need to mention again when comparing the defences and that's Krol/Vasovic pairing which is successful one and proven combo. Same goes for the attack in Charlton and Best and midfield in Xavi/Ronaldinho.

I feel we have more quality across the park and just edge it in every line which should give us the victory.
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Eusebio is a different league to Eto'o as a footballer, so will not disagree there. I am also of the opinion that Eusebio is definitely a forward (remember there being a phase where no one liked him as a 9 - which I disagree with) .. but their styles of play is different. They share an ability to run at players but Eusesbio is one of the best dribblers of all time for a striker whereas Eto'o is good but not all time great level on that front.

Nevertheless Eto'o definitely brings more stretch the line and get in behind vertical threat to a side than Eusebio does. Eusebio because he could absolutely dominate a game, he would often drop deep and run at defenders. That was his modus operandi.. he wasn't your lead the line centre forward. He'd come back into midfield and get on the ball and run at players.. which is where Sir Bobby will be and probably Ronaldinho too as he won't want to go down the line against Djalma.



Best won't be able to take Bossis down the line as much as he would want to and therefore alot of your attack will have to come inwards, where my full backs Djalma/Bossis are just as strong as they are on defending the outside.

Now outside of Best, your next best stretching the defence option is Reuter.. but he's up against Nedved, who has superb work-rate and will nullify that threat.
 
Enigma_87 said:
As I said at the EURO 2008 Xavi was player of the tournament and played alongside a box to box Senna in midfield.
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That's not really true, Senna wasn't a box to box midfielder during Spain '08 - he played as a holding midfielder behind Xavi and brought that disciplined balance you're lacking here to the midfield. Towards the end of the tournament Spain were almost playing a 4-1-4-1 with Senna shielding and one striker up top. When he retired/aged Del Bosque changed the system and settled on replacing Senna with two holding midfielders behind Xavi (Busquets and Alonso).

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/jun/29/euro2008.spain

As Spain have delivered the finest football of a gratifyingly creative tournament, their Brazil-born midfielder has been their most important performer. Senna shields a defence many suspected would be Spain's undoing while providing the platform for five forward-minded players running ahead of him. Were Uefa to name him player of the tournament, it would be no surprise.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/02/23/teams-of-the-decade-7-spain-2008/



The reason Luis Aragones’ side won Euro 2008 was, of course, the use of a designated holding player in front of the defence. In many ways, Aragones leant from the Barcelona side which failed because it attempted to fit three similar players into the centre of midfield; Xavi, Iniesta and Deco. The need for a more physical, holding player was apparent, and Barcelona’s midfield worked better when first Edmilson and then Yaya Toure filled the position. To emphasise the increased defensive solidarity because of the holding player is obvious, but the key was that it let Xavi and Iniesta go and play.

And of course, a pretty identical thing happened with this Spain side. Although the formation was different to the one used by Barcelona, the use of Marcos Senna meant that Xavi and Iniesta were freed to go forward and create. Their ability to keep possession, to find the forwards and to float around the pitch without losing their defensive shape was magnificent. Spain produce ball-playing central midfielders like no other country, but they’ve always struggled to produce a disciplined, physical player like Senna, a Brazilian by birth.
Enigma_87 said:
again, read up how I'm using Tigana. He will move vertically into space and his place will be covered by Vasovic while Raees team tracks back and goes into his own half.
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On the second point.. I have read how you'll use Tigana and quoted some of your posts. You have said that he will move up vertically in possession and play his natural box-to-box game, then you posted a video showing him playing this way (i.e. getting forward). That's fine, but as has been mentioned a number of times there is a real risk here that this will isolate Xavi - in a way that a more limited footballer like Deschamps probably wouldn't (as unlike Tigana here Dechamps would hold his position).

Noted re Vasovic pushing forward from defence to plug in any gaps in the hole. I don't buy that as a valid strategy to be honest, it seems quite convoluted in truth and I think you'll leave too much space for Van Basten 1 vs 1 against Godin. Looks risky to me on the counter when Gerson or Di Stefano pick up possession.
 
Raees said:
Eusebio is a different league to Eto'o as a footballer, so will not disagree there. I am also of the opinion that Eusebio is definitely a forward (remember there being a phase where no one liked him as a 9 - which I disagree with) .. but their styles of play is different. They share an ability to run at players but Eusesbio is one of the best dribblers of all time for a striker whereas Eto'o is good but not all time great level on that front.

Nevertheless Eto'o definitely brings more stretch the line and get in behind vertical threat to a side than Eusebio does. Eusebio because he could absolutely dominate a game, he would often drop deep and run at defenders. That was his modus operandi.. he wasn't your lead the line centre forward. He'd come back into midfield and get on the ball and run at players.. which is where Sir Bobby will be and probably Ronaldinho too as he won't want to go down the line against Djalma.



Best won't be able to take Bossis down the line as much as he would want to and therefore alot of your attack will have to come inwards, where my full backs Djalma/Bossis are just as strong as they are on defending the outside.

Now outside of Best, your next best stretching the defence option is Reuter.. but he's up against Nedved, who has superb work-rate and will nullify that threat.
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I doubt Ronaldinho of all people would just tuck his tail and move outside his favorite left position just because Djalma is there. Ronaldinho is one of the best players in the game and absolute match winner so I disagree with that notion. Same goes for Best as I said. As good as Bossis is, Best is better and along with Garrincha the best winger of all time probably.

As you said Eusebio will move a lot looking for a space, or to relieve space - this is what he does best so no one is taking away that game from him. He will drop deep, but not too deep as I don't think he should given the abundance of creativity he has in midfield.
 
@Theon I think we covered that point far too many times to be honest. As I've said with Di Stefano in the picture a designated DM is a bit of a waste since he's not a classic #10. Tigana won't push every time like a maniac(same goes for the other side with Gerson and Deschamps), just see the video I posted - he pushes forward but most of the time he's the deepest of all midfielders and even close to his own box when starting attacks. This will be the same here but of course he'll target Di Stefano most of the time. Vasovic will move into the hole to intercept long balls, of course when I lose possession Tigana tracks back, Sir Bobby tracks back and Vasovic drops back.

I don't think we'll be that susceptible on counters, hence I went with a pretty pacy team and neither is van Basten the fastest types of forward. Reuter/Krol are very fast and can cover space, same goes for Sir Bobby and Tigana in midfield.
 
Enigma_87 said:
I doubt Ronaldinho of all people would just tuck his tail and move outside his favorite left position just because Djalma is there. Ronaldinho is one of the best players in the game and absolute match winner so I disagree with that notion. Same goes for Best as I said. As good as Bossis is, Best is better and along with Garrincha the best winger of all time probably.

As you said Eusebio will move a lot looking for a space, or to relieve space - this is what he does best so no one is taking away that game from him. He will drop deep, but not too deep as I don't think he should given the abundance of creativity he has in midfield.
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If there is one right back that you would back to try and keep Ronaldinho in check.. for me it would be Djalma. You could argue Thuram too but or me Djalma has that brazillian heritage where he is used to coming up against tricksters in addition to his flawless defensive ability and athleticism.

Best is better than Bossis on paper, and agree he's one of the best if not best winger of all time. But as part of a defensive unit and with Nedved in support, that is a very difficult challenge for Best.. who can't just outpace a Bossis.
 
Enigma_87 said:
@Theon I think we covered that point far too many times to be honest.
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:lol: When did we cover this previously?

You just said that Xavi played next to a box-to-box midfielder in Marcos Senna during Euro 2008. That's not true which is what I was responding to - you've made a few comments which are quite off IMO.
 
Raees said:
If there is one right back that you would back to try and keep Ronaldinho in check.. for me it would be Djalma. You could argue Thuram too but or me Djalma has that brazillian heritage where he is used to coming up against tricksters in addition to his flawless defensive ability and athleticism.

Best is better than Bossis on paper, and agree he's one of the best if not best winger of all time. But as part of a defensive unit and with Nedved in support, that is a very difficult challenge for Best.. who can't just outpace a Bossis.
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And Ronaldinho is one of the best in the last 20-30 years, so while your full backs are excellent that doesn't mean that they will shut them off completely. Both Dinho and Best can decide any game in a second and have done against some of the best defences in their era.
Theon said:
:lol: When did we cover this previously?

You just said that Xavi played next to a box-to-box midfielder in Marcos Senna during Euro 2008. That's not true which is what I was responding to - you've made a few comments which are quite off IMO.
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Senna is box to box midfielder first and foremost, this is what I've meant from the first quote. Obviously they've played differently in some of the games, but Senna is not a traditional DM or holding midfielder that I apparently need in this game. You keep telling me I need an anchor and I keep telling you Di Stefano is not your traditional #10, hence Tigana doing most of the defensive work and tracking him is better than just simply put a DM in front of the defence. That's why I said we can agree to disagree on this topic rather to go in circles.

6 minutes: Alfredo Di Stéfano gets the ball in front of the center line, carries the ball into the middle, but his outside of the boot pass goes astray. Frankfurt has the ball in midfield, Di Stéfano goes to counter press, but is dodged. The Germans play a long-range pass to the wing and counter. It comes to a cross, but Real’s defense clears it over the foul line. Marquitos has the ball – and plays it to Di Stéfano, who offers himself to receive the pass in his own penalty area and passes it with one touch. Canario plays to Marquitos, then back to Di Stéfano. He carries the ball through the midfield now, confident as ever. With the ball at his feet, he thrusts forward and plays a square pass that preceded a longer ball circulation for Real.


Real Madrid 1956

Di Stefano could play all of the central positions; center forward, second striker, ten, eight, six, central defender, libero. But he played them all simultaneously. As a center forward, he often fell back between the defender in the 3-2-5 to fetch balls directly from his own penalty area and then march forwards.
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Here's a quote to illustrate Di Stefano's game. If I put an anchor there what's the point countering Di Stefano being 40 yards from him? It's much better to congest the space in the middle when defending and keep it narrow in the center with all Sir Bobby, Xavi and Tigana able to take the ball off him.

And also brings the question whether Gerson is optimal in this set up as a deep playmaker since Di Stefano is the playmaker of the team who usually drops as deep as to his own box to get the ball and move forward. As we all know a deep playmaker like Didi and Di Stefano didn't exactly work at Real and Di Stefano always wanted to pull the strings which resulted in personal clashes.
 
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I agree that Senna was very much a holding midfielder in 2008 and his main positional role was to stay behind the ball at all times.

There's been a few comments on Enigma's attack. I don't share the concern with Eusebio as a 9 in that set-up. The main reason he dropped deep for Portugal was because he had to often be the main creator and taker of chances. He'd be perfect leading the line in the modern game. The attack as a whole is potentially a little overly individualistic, but there's enough collaboration there between them to make it work IMO.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Obviously they've played differently in some of the games, but Senna is not a traditional DM or holding midfielder that I apparently need in this game. You keep telling me I need an anchor and I keep telling you Di Stefano is not your traditional #10, hence Tigana doing most of the defensive work and tracking him is better than just simply put a DM in front of the defence. That's why I said we can agree to disagree on this topic rather to go in circles.

Here's a quote to illustrate Di Stefano's game. If I put an anchor there what's the point countering Di Stefano being 40 yards from him?
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I'm not sure what a traditional DM or holding midfielder is, but Senna absolutely played that role... United were going to sign him in the mid-2000's and that's the position he would have played - in the end we went with Hargreaves after some wrangling.

But yeah, a number of people have pointed out that midfield pairing as sub-optimal (particularly defensively). When you responded to Mazhar you implied that it would work because Xavi played next to a "box to box Senna in 2008". That's not true - he played next to a holding midfield player who played nothing like Tigana will in this match.

The comparison you brought up is completely pointless and misrepresents the way Spain played, so it merited an additional response. That's the first post I made on Senna, so I'm not sure what this whole "we're going in circles" shtick is - if you don't want to talk about your midfield any more then stop making contentious posts :lol:.

On the second point - I know how Di Stefano played mate. As I mentioned to you earlier on in the thread, he was scoring close to a goal every game at his peak in Madrid and was the top scorer in La Liga five seasons running - that's exactly the type of forward who merits positional discipline in midfield quite frankly.

If you want Tigana to follow him around when he picks the ball of the defence that's fine but it isn't the way I would want my team to defend against Di Stefano. I agree that we can leave it there though.
 
Theon said:
I'm not sure what a traditional DM or holding midfielder is, but Senna absolutely played that role... United were going to sign him in the mid-2000's and that's the position he would have played - in the end we went with Hargreaves after some wrangling.

But yeah, a number of people have pointed out that midfield pairing as sub-optimal (particularly defensively). When you responded to Mazhar you implied that it would work because Xavi played next to a "box to box Senna in 2008". That's not true - he played next to a holding midfield player who played nothing like Tigana will in this match.

The comparison you brought up is completely pointless and misrepresents the way Spain played, so it merited an additional response. That's the first post I made on Senna, so I'm not sure what this whole "we're going in circles" shtick is - if you don't want to talk about your midfield any more then stop making contentious posts :lol:.

On the second point - I know how Di Stefano played mate. As I mentioned to you earlier on in the thread, he was scoring close to a goal every game at his peak in Madrid and was the top scorer in La Liga five seasons running - that's exactly the type of forward who merits positional discipline in midfield quite frankly.

If you want Tigana to follow him around when he picks the ball of the defence that's fine but it isn't the way I would want my team to defend against Di Stefano. I agree that we can leave it there though.
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No mate look I think we're talking about different things :lol:

First off we were talking about Xavi defensive contribution and compared to Gerson. Then I mentioned Xavi playing alongside a typical b2b midfielder in Senna. From memory in 2008 EURO when they had Villa on the pitch Senna as in the holding position starting an attack and giving the ball to Xavi. But they wouldn't control possession in that way most of the time and brought on Fabregas in the hole and Senna was pushing up a bit. Why I mentioned it was because Senna was not the typical anchor or DM by trade that you were saying I'd need but B2B by trade and when Iniesta was pushing forward he occupied a space centrally - moving upwards. At least that's how I see his contribution. Anyhow I'm not replicating that system and I don't need a typical anchor to get the ball to Xavi as I have Vasovic as a CB.

Tigana is where he is. He's not following Di Stefano, Vogts style, as otherwise he'll end up as my target man off the ball. He's also not just standing in front of the defence because there's no need with Di Stefano away from our line and van Basten between my CB's and Raees CM are usually standing deep.

Tigana's role is first and foremost defensive one. When in possession he'll move vertically and Vasovic will be moving centrally to cover the space and cut a counter that's it. If I wanted Tigana to be a holding midfielder I'd put him there and he has played there before. Even Wenger has called him a DM in his description, but I don't think that's needed and optimal in my set up. Our midfield is as is in terms of defending and the idea is to congest the midfield and defend as a unit.

Tigana moving upwards when we're in possession is really natural and how usually football work in possession. Raees men will track back it's not like they'll stay offside so I just don't see how Xavi will become isolated in midfield when as you saw Tigana is not constantly charging forward but occasionally when in space. If there's a heat map from that game it's pretty much the position he'll most likely end up most often as in the formation graphic.

I don't mind talking about my midfield just I get the feeling I'm repeating myself and probably boring the thread readers. That's all :)
 
Unlucky @Raees

Well done @Enigma_87 it's never easy to put up with Theon all game and not end up losing by distraction.

He was right, mind.

At some point.




I just stopped reading.
 
@Enigma_87 Congrats Buddy! much tighter encounter than I anticipated in all honesty.. for a first match up it wasn't too shabby and if anyone had offered me a tight QF exit against one of the favourites after round 3 of the drafting process, I'd have bit their nuts off.

You had much tougher probing from likes of Theon etc than I had to deal with, so kudos for handling it all and best of luck going forward.
 
Great game @Raees was tight until the end and you have crafted a wonderful team despite the first sheep rounds you suffered. I always love your teams and I really like that attack of yours!
 
antohan said:
Unlucky @Raees

Well done @Enigma_87 it's never easy to put up with Theon all game and not end up losing by distraction.

He was right, mind.

At some point.




I just stopped reading.
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Cheers Anto! have to say I have learnt a lot from this draft.. looking forward to the next time a Sheep draft comes round.
 
antohan said:
Unlucky @Raees

Well done @Enigma_87 it's never easy to put up with Theon all game and not end up losing by distraction.

He was right, mind.

At some point.

I just stopped reading.
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cheers mate.

Nah I don't have problem with @Theon and I'd gladly answer any questions to my team and the way I see things panning out and of course some might have different ideas than my, so that's perfectly ok.

I just don't want to focus on single point in the games and keep the discussion going in one place(which I tend to do and it's a flaw for me in games, but trying to alienate from that) as it becomes boring for readers and as you said yourself you stop reading at a time.
 
Enigma_87 said:
cheers mate.

Nah I don't have problem with @Theon and I'd gladly answer any questions to my team and the way I see things panning out and of course some might have different ideas than my, so that's perfectly ok.

I just don't want to focus on single point in the games and keep the discussion going in one place(which I tend to do and it's a flaw for me in games, but trying to alienate from that) as it becomes boring for readers and as you said yourself you stop reading at a time.
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Should put in a rule, where the match mod.. comes in and says move on to new topic. Point, Counter-point, response to counterpoint. That should be it.. and let others make their mind up after that point.
 
Raees said:
Should put in a rule, where the match mod.. comes in and says move on to new topic. Point, Counter-point, response to counterpoint. That should be it.. and let others make their mind up after that point.
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yeah indeed. I'm all for making more of a bullet point Q & A and voters to decide.
 
Enigma_87 said:
I just don't want to focus on single point in the games and keep the discussion going in one place(which I tend to do and it's a flaw for me in games, but trying to alienate from that) as it becomes boring for readers and as you said yourself you stop reading at a time.
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Congrats Enigma.

FYI on this - from my perspective at least the arguments were quite different. It started off about Xavi and I was quite happy with a point-counterpoint structure.

Then you made a new point about how Xavi played next to a box-to-box midfielder in 2008. That's quite a different comment and merited its own response, as in my opinion it was clearly untrue.
 
Theon said:
Congrats Enigma.

FYI on this - from my perspective at least the arguments were quite different. It started off about Xavi and I was quite happy with a point-counterpoint structure.

Then you made a new point about how Xavi played next to a box-to-box midfielder in 2008. That's quite a different comment and merited its own response, as in my opinion it was clearly untrue.
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Cheers, mate.

Well Senna was B2B for Villareal by trade with Bruno and in that Spain set up from memory he started the attacks but when Iniesta moved up and drifted to the left, he also occupied the space centrally when they had Villa on the pitch. This is what I've meant. With Fabregas they had more bodies centrally and stayed in the hole. At least that's how I recall things :)
 
Enigma_87 said:
Cheers, mate.

Well Senna was B2B for Villareal by trade with Bruno and in that Spain set up from memory he started the attacks but when Iniesta moved up and drifted to the left, he also occupied the space centrally when they had Villa on the pitch. This is what I've meant. With Fabregas they had more bodies centrally and stayed in the hole. At least that's how I recall things :)
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Nah Senna was not a box-to-box midfielder by trade, he could probably play the role but the majority of people would have classed Senna as a holding or defensive midfielder. Certainly when he peaked as a footballer around the time United were interested in him and when he joined the Spanish national side. Compared to players like Ballack, Seedorf or even Vieira who genuinely played that role the focus of Senna was more defensive and limited going forward. He was more like a De Rossi or Paulo Sousa - good on the ball but positionally responsible.

I remember when we were going to get him and the general idea from what I recall was him and Carrick (who was actually more box-to-box in those days) sitting in a double pivot, or potentially with Scholes in a 4-3-3.

And in Spain 2008 that's the role he played, calling it box-to-box is nonsense IMO. I've already shown a few extracts above, but this is how Kicker had them lining up as another example http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...ische-austellung_deutschland_spanien-932.html
 
Theon said:
Nah Senna was not a box-to-box midfielder by trade, he could probably play the role but the majority of people would have classed Senna as a holding or defensive midfielder. Certainly when he peaked as a footballer around the time United were interested in him and when he joined the Spanish national side. Compared to players like Ballack, Seedorf or even Vieira who genuinely played that role the focus of Senna was more defensive and limited going forward. He was more like a De Rossi or Paulo Sousa - good on the ball but positionally responsible.

I remember when we were going to get him and the general idea from what I recall was him and Carrick (who was actually more box-to-box in those days) sitting in a double pivot, or potentially with Scholes in a 4-3-3.

And in Spain 2008 that's the role he played, calling it box-to-box is nonsense IMO. I've already shown a few extracts above, but this is how Kicker had them lining up as another example http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...ische-austellung_deutschland_spanien-932.html
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This is when Fabregas was on the pitch, when Villa and Torres were it was more of a 4-4-2 with Senna being deeper than Xavi (a bit like my formation):

formation-vs-russia-442.png


The triangle of two holders and the central creator in the 4-2-3-1 is similar in that it allows the tone of a side to be changed without a major tactical overhaul. Advance one of the holders and a 4-1-4-1 is created. It was that system to which Spain switched in the Euro 2008 semi-final after Fabregás had come on for the injured David Villa. They retained the shape for the final and, counter-intuitively, probably produced their best football after their top scorer had been ruled out.
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by Jonathan Wilson.

They switched to that with Fabregas to gain more control in midfield and kept it in the final.

You can see the 4-4-2 in the games prior to that and it was either Xavi dropping in to receive the ball or Senna:
start-of-attack-in-442.png


Here's Senna in front of Xavi in the 4-4-2.

Then you can see both Xavi and Senna pushing forward, keeping the 4-4-2.
442-attack-2.png


So while you are correct with your assessment when Fabregas was on the pitch in a 4-1-4-1 or 4-2-3-1 with Senna in holding position. I still can't agree with the notion he played as a pure holder throughout the tournament.

Not many compilations of him from that tournament but he also managed to put some shots in and was an ever present tackling monster all over the pitch. Short compilation:
 
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Moby said:
Really? I really liked that duo and was one of the key factors behind the vote, much preferred it to what the opposition was fielding.
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In terms of shiny names.. one being a pre-30's defender, and the other an unheralded partner for Beckenbauer German sides of the 70's. Could have also done with a more sweepery defender to come out of defence.

Margins really. Plan was to get P.R. Falcao or Fachetti as my second pick (move Bossis next to Nasazzi).
 
Raees said:
In terms of shiny names.. one being a pre-30's defender, and the other an unheralded partner for Beckenbauer German sides of the 70's. Could have also done with a more sweepery defender to come out of defence.
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True. I was wondering why you struggled to catch up earlier and there were two obvious marketability issues: 1. Best as a massive asset for Enigma, 2. Your defenders being solid but not too fancy, which is why I took issue with the statements on Best only being up against Bossis and Schwarzenbeck. He had his work cut out AFAIC.

Agility and pace get overdone in these comparisons.
 
It's actually worse that he's mellowed down, saying the same ridiculous things without the aggressive tone that made it understandable and think it's the passion talking. Listening to those things with a sensible tone is more provocative.
 
Enigma_87 said:
This is when Fabregas was on the pitch, when Villa and Torres were it was more of a 4-4-2 with Senna being deeper than Xavi (a bit like my formation).

They switched to that with Fabregas to gain more control in midfield and kept it in the final.

You can see the 4-4-2 in the games prior to that and it was either Xavi dropping in to receive the ball or Senna.

So while you are correct with your assessment when Fabregas was on the pitch in a 4-1-4-1 or 4-2-3-1 with Senna in holding position. I still can't agree with the notion he played as a pure holder throughout the tournament.
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I know that Spain changed their formation midway through the tournament - the articles that I posted for you talk about it and it's completely and utterly irrelevant as to whether or not Senna played as a box-to-box midfielder :lol:.

You can play as a holding midfielder in a 4-4-2 formation... look at Carrick, or a hundred other players.

Senna played as a holding midfielder when Spain had two strikers on the pitch, and he played as a holding midfielder when Spain had one striker on the pitch. That was his role in the team and he never played as a box-to-box midfielder - which is what you claimed.

This is becoming genuinely mental and it's irrelevant anyway so we should leave this. Let's just agree to disagree on whether he was a box-to-box midfielder or not.
 
Moby said:
It's actually worse that he's mellowed down, saying the same ridiculous things without the aggressive tone that made it understandable and think it's the passion talking. Listening to those things with a sensible tone is more provocative.
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You still miffed I talked you into not passing the Bamboozle round and spunking 40M on Blokhin instead of Passarella?

If it helps, that's why you got JOS as a sheep later on.
 
Theon said:
I know that Spain changed their formation midway through the tournament - the articles that I posted for you talk about it and it's completely and utterly irrelevant as to whether or not Senna played as a box-to-box midfielder :lol:.

You can play as a holding midfielder in a 4-4-2 formation... look at Carrick, or a hundred other players.

Senna played as a holding midfielder when Spain had two strikers on the pitch, and he played as a holding midfielder when Spain had one striker on the pitch. That was his role in the team and he never played as a box-to-box midfielder - which is what you claimed.

This is becoming genuinely mental and it's irrelevant anyway so we should leave this. Let's just agree to disagree on whether he was a box-to-box midfielder or not.
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Senna was also in the opposition half as well as his own and wasn't limited to his own half. Spain played without a designated #10 hence he covered a lot of space to fill the holes and intercept and break up the play and also putting some shots in while moving vertically. When Fabregas was introduced his role was limited to a pure defensive one as he filled that #10 space.

And it was only for 120 minutes really - from the 30th minute of the SF and final but either way lets drop it then :lol:

antohan said:
@Enigma_87 Senna was a holding midfielder if I ever saw one
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we digressed a lot with this one and it's not that relevant either way going into semantics and more pages of discussions of his role/position as he's unlikely to feature in this draft.
 
antohan said:
If it's "all that card shit" I'm sure you are aware it was in the OP to begin with, I even said it would be an iczter style draft.
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Let's not start listing the things you'll have to take back to return to sanity, as we only have one lifetime.

There's no going back after 'Keane with goals'
 
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