Black Sheep Draft QF - Raees vs. Enigma

[Enigma_87]

@mazhar13 I don't buy this to be honest. Xavi played in a 4-4-2 at the EURO 2008 with a box to box Senna next to him. Usually the (probably) most dominant midfield ever consisted of Xavi/Busquets and Iniesta. Sure players like Song, Keita were introduced as subs to close out the game, but that trio played like 95% of the time. You can see Busquets struggling without Xavi(and generally the whole Barca midfield naturally). Sir Bobby puts a enormous work rate to the table as well, which shouldn't be underestimated.

Similarly you can say the same for Deschamps - he had Jugovic, Di Livio, Davids and Conte playing alongside him most of the time - highly energetic b2b midfielders that cover a lot of ground. Gerson is not such player. Juve also played a lot with a back three with WB's like Pessotto/di Livio.

Same in the national team - he had Karembeau, Petit and Vieira covering a lot of ground.

I don't buy that Xavi is a system player argument. He's the most complete CM I've ever seen live(along with Redondo) and he can dominate and control games like no other. He only played for Barca and Spain, but that doesn't mean he won't be a success elsewhere.

 

[Raees]

Key tactical battles

• Reuter and Best v Nedved and Bossis
• Krol and Ronaldinho v Jairzinho and Djalma
• Tigana/Xavi v Di Stefano
• Sir Bobby v Deschamps/Gerson
• Godin/Vasovic v Van Basten
• Eusebio v Nasazzi/Schwarzenbeck

Genuinely think if you break down the game and look deeply into the respective attributes of the players and the way the game will pan out, my side edges it in the tactical battles.

 

[Enigma_87]

Key tactical battles

• Reuter and Best v Nedved and Bossis
• Krol and Ronaldinho v Jairzinho and Djalma
• Tigana/Xavi v Di Stefano
• Sir Bobby v Deschamps/Gerson
• Godin/Vasovic v Van Basten
• Eusebio v Nasazzi/Schwarzenbeck

Genuinely think if you break down the game and look deeply into the respective attributes of the players and the way the game will pan out, my side edges it in the tactical battles.

I respectfully disagree

Deschamps/Gerson/Nasazzi and Schwarzenbeck IMO will feel a lot unease with dynamic, fast, pacy and agile players in Eusebio/Sir Bobby and Ronaldinho/Best when cutting in.

I think Best is the outstanding winger on the pitch(not that others aren't world class mind) and he's against Bossis and probably the least agile defender in Schwarzenbeck covering him on that side.

I think we covered the middle ground a lot on the previous page so I might repeat myself but the energy and pace of Tigana is pretty good fit for a roaming #10 like Di Stefano, whereas I can't say the same about Gerson/Deschamps on Sir Bobby.

Godin also IMO is a very good fit for big Marco, both in the air and also marking him on the pitch, while Vasovic can cover for Reuter and/or Di Stefano in the middle.

 

[antohan]

I respectfully disagree

Deschamps/Gerson/Nasazzi and Schwarzenbeck IMO will feel a lot unease with dynamic, fast, pacy and agile players in Eusebio/Sir Bobby and Ronaldinho/Best when cutting in.

I think Best is the outstanding winger on the pitch(not that others aren't world class mind) and he's against Bossis and probably the least agile defender in Schwarzenbeck covering him on that side.

I think we covered the middle ground a lot on the previous page so I might repeat myself but the energy and pace of Tigana is pretty good fit for a roaming #10 like Di Stefano, whereas I can't say the same about Gerson/Deschamps on Sir Bobby.

Godin also IMO is a very good fit for big Marco, both in the air and also marking him on the pitch, while Vasovic can cover for Reuter and/or Di Stefano in the middle.

Is this meant to mean he is having it easy? Because he isn't. In the wing battles the only one having a distinct advantage is Nedved on Reuter, particularly if Vasovic is fannying around in the holding midfield area.

 

[Enigma_87]

Is this meant to mean he is having it easy? Because he isn't. In the wing battles the only one having a distinct advantage is Nedved on Reuter, particularly if Vasovic is fannying around in the holding midfield area.

Of course not(as Bossis is no sheep, but he's no Maldini either), but to me Best is one of the greatest wingers all time, while Reuter is covered by Vasovic who is superior to Schwarzenbeck if I extend the comparison.

Vasovic will move to the hole only in possession(to intercept balls and Nedved at the time will track back probably) or be the last man to stop Di Stefano centrally if needed(but not personally marking him or something as I'm not putting 3 man on 1 when defending).

 

[Raees]

Is this meant to mean he is having it easy? Because he isn't. In the wing battles the only one having a distinct advantage is Nedved on Reuter, particularly if Vasovic is fannying around in the holding midfield area.

Bossis might not be the flashiest name on paper, compared to say a Fachetti but agreed, he is attribute wise and style of play wise one of the most difficult full backs someone like Best could go up against. Very quick, astute reader of the game (played across all defensive positions), and tall and strong.. nightmare to get past.

With regards to Nasazzi, to play in a back two as it was in those days and to be the pre-eminent defender of that generation and so successful, winning player of the tournaments galore.. you would have to be a very well-rounded defender as they didn't have full-backs to rely on like your modern breed of centre-back.

 

[Enigma_87]

Bossis might not be the flashiest name on paper, compared to say a Fachetti but agreed, he is attribute wise and style of play wise one of the most difficult full backs someone like Best could go up against. Very quick, astute reader of the game (played across all defensive positions), and tall and strong.. nightmare to get past.

With regards to Nasazzi, to play in a back two as it was in those days and to be the pre-eminent defender of that generation and so successful, winning player of the tournaments galore.. you would have to be a very well-rounded defender as they didn't have full-backs to rely on like your modern breed of centre-back.

Yeah, my comparison is more of those who cover for Bossis/Reuter on the side. Reuter is not a mug either and his credentials speak for itself - he won 3 Bundesliga's, 1 CL, 1 World Cup, 1 EURO and 1 time EURO finalist with Germany.

He shares the same qualities as you described Bossis with - maybe even faster (clocked around 11s for 100 meters), wasn't called Turbo for nothing. Very agile, difficult to get past by, etc.

As good as Bossis is(and he is don't get me wrong) Best is the superior player in the 1 on 1 and I like his chances most of the time.

 

[Ecstatic]

Very interesting game. I will look at it tonight.

 

[Tuppet]

Expanding a bit, I still see Deschamps/Gerson defensively more sound than Tigana/Xavi.

I don't. I think Tigana is quite underrated defensively. He suffers from the Tardelli syndrome (could be extended to Matthaus as well) , where I had to explain in a previous draft to everyone that just because he played with another defensive midfielder it doesn't mean that he was not very good at defending himself. I watched 82 wc France games researching Platini for a draft, but Tigana captured my eyes for just how amazing he was defensively. Also I think before the magic square become Tigana - Fernandez - Platini - Giresse, it was Tigana-Genghini-Platini-Giresse, so 3 real number 10 supported by what was not only a no. 6 but also a no. 8 at the same time. They had to move out of it as it was not sustainable.

I think both Enigma & Raees midfield partnership are on par defensively but take very different approaches.

 

[antohan]

Yeah, my comparison is more of those who cover for Bossis/Reuter on the side. Reuter is not a mug either and his credentials speak for itself - he won 3 Bundesliga's, 1 CL, 1 World Cup, 1 EURO and 1 time EURO finalist with Germany.

He shares the same qualities as you described Bossis with - maybe even faster (clocked around 11s for 100 meters), wasn't called Turbo for nothing. Very agile, difficult to get past by, etc.

As good as Bossis is(and he is don't get me wrong) Best is the superior player in the 1 on 1 and I like his chances most of the time.

I simply don't buy Bossis covered by Schwarzenbeck being an easy game for Best. It's a harder game than against Breitner-Schwarzenbeck in that he faces a better defender and HGs job is therefore easier than what was required of him for a famous backline (one with a more adventurous defender on his right to boot).

 

[harms]

Still haven't decided, so I guess I'll abstain. Fair play to both managers for creating near perfect units

 

[Enigma_87]

I simply don't buy Bossis covered by Schwarzenbeck being an easy game for Best. It's a harder game than against Breitner-Schwarzenbeck in that he faces a better defender and HGs job is therefore easier than what was required of him for a famous backline (one with a more adventurous defender on his right to boot).

I'm not saying he's having it easy mate. I'm just saying Best/Ronaldinho is the better wing pair if we take into consideration their pure attacking game whereas I believe both defenses are pretty strong( I like mine better but it's subjective of course) hence I like our chances better in that matchup that's all. Not trying to underrate someone or something.

 

[antohan]

I'm not saying he's having it easy mate. I'm just saying Best/Ronaldinho is the better wing pair if we take into consideration their pure attacking game whereas I believe both defenses are pretty strong( I like mine better but it's subjective of course) hence I like our chances better in that matchup that's all. Not trying to underrate someone or something.

It is the better pair, sure. That said, Raees makes a good point about the relevance of MvB in making his unit work better.

 

[Theon]

I'd probably agree with you if I faced off a more classic #10 in terms of say Zico, while against players like Di Stefano, Sir Bobby, Cruyff I'd preffer defensive players in Tigana's mold that can follow him around hassle and harass him, while Xavi covers the space.

That isn't what Xavi did though.. if anything his defensive contribution was more like how you have described Tigana's (i.e he was an effective presser).

Xavi was never a holding midfielder and 'covering the space' was never his game. For Barcelona he has a holding midfielder behind him (as well as a ridiculously high line) and for the Spanis national side he had two holding midfielders in Busquets and Alonso.

Selling Xavi as a proven defensive holding midfielder is way off IMO.

I swear, Xavi's defensive ability is really starting to get overrated here.

Whenever Xavi played, he was utilised as the main playmaker of the side. His main contributions were all on the ball. Off of it, he only contributed to his team's quick pressing game. Otherwise, he was providing defensive support, but not to the level that many on the Caf raise him to.

Whenever Guardiola wanted more defensive assurance in his midfield, he would bring on Seydou Keita for one of Xavi or Iniesta because both of them didn't provide the defensive presence that he had. In Spain, del Bosque always had Xabi Alonso and Busquets play together in order to offer Xavi a more free role. Luis Aragones did that by having Marcos Senna play an anchor man role whilst introducing the high-pressing, possession-oriented system that made Spain so formidable.

Xavi was great in Spain and Barcelona's quick pressing approach, but that had as much to do with the system as it did with Xavi himself. Outside of that system, Xavi didn't offer that much defensively.

Spoiler: From the book FC Barcelona - A Tactical Analysis: Defending

That's exactly how I remembered Barcelona and Spain during their period of domination. I also remember when Tata Martino came in, Xavi was given more defensive responsibility, and he struggled to provide the required defensive contribution.

Sorry, but in a match like this where di Stefano and Nedved are going to be involved in the middle areas, Tigana's going to be overwhelmed with defensive work. Xavi won't be able to provide enough support for him here. Previously, when he had Vidal and Tigana to support him, that was even better. Charlton is hardworking enough to contribute defensively, but I don't see him matching Vidal's defensive output in order to offer Xavi enough support (Charlton had Stiles & Crerand with him for Man. Utd. whilst, in England's 1966 run, he had Stiles + 2 extremely hardworking players in Ball and Peters).

On the other hand, whilst Gerson is similar to Xavi in that he was a playmaker first and foremost, he offered more than Xavi did with his better overall defensive ability, which was the reason he worked so well with another #10 in Clodoaldo in that role.

The only way Enigma has a chance to win this is if they are able to sustain possession and take control of the match, but I don't see that happening particularly with the midfield that Raees has.

I don't agree with every word of this, but this is a very good post in terms of Xavi and his defensive contribution - I wouldn't go quite as far as Mazhar because he was an excellent defensive asset, but that was largely confined to pressing and forcing mistakes from the opposition, which is a very different type of defending to being a positionally astute holding midfielder.

 

[Enigma_87]

That isn't what Xavi did though.. if anything his defensive contribution was more like how you have described Tigana's (i.e he was an effective presser).

Xavi was never a holding midfielder and 'covering the space' was never his game. For Barcelona he has a holding midfielder behind him (as well as a ridiculously high line) and for the Spanis national side he had two holding midfielders in Busquets and Alonso.

Selling Xavi as a proven defensive holding midfielder is way off IMO.

I'm not selling him as one mate. Xavi is still the playmaker of the team. But he's also not a passenger in midfield. The argument was about and whether his defensive game is better than Gerson, not him being holding player and he's not depicted as such.

 

[Theon]

I'm not selling him as one mate. Xavi is still the playmaker of the team. But he's also not a passenger in midfield. The argument was about and whether his defensive game is better than Gerson, not him being holding player and he's not depicted as such.

Well firstly I don't think the argument was about that, it's surely not as basic as asking who is better defensively out of Gerson and Xavi.. A whole host of issues are relevant there (such as their partners in midfield and the teams style of play). If you're playing a high pressing 4-3-3 system then Xavi is excellent defensively and clearly better than Gerson, but as part of a double pivot then I'd rather have Gerson in the side. It's not as black and white as one being better than the other.

But yeah, in that quote as an example there was an issue with Xavi being depicted as a holding player as you stated that Tigana will hassle/press players whilst Xavi covers the space (which wasn't his game). I think beyond particular quotes the issue is that you see this as an effective defensive structure when its clearly sub-optimal, it's not terrible by any stretch but saying you "don't lack anything defensively" is going way too far.

Tigana was an effective ball-winner but ultimately I think you lack a holding midfielder and someone to cover that space in front of your defence.

 

[Enigma_87]

Well firstly I don't think the argument was about that, it's surely not as basic as asking who is better defensively out of Gerson and Xavi.. A whole host of issues are relevant there (such as their partners in midfield and the teams style of play). If you're playing a high pressing 4-3-3 system then Xavi is excellent defensively and clearly better than Gerson, but as part of a double pivot then I'd rather have Gerson in the side. It's not as black and white as one being better than the other.

But yeah, in that quote as an example there was an issue with Xavi being depicted as a holding player as you stated that Tigana will hassle/press players whilst Xavi covers the space (which wasn't his game). I think beyond particular quotes the issue is that you see this as an effective defensive structure when its clearly sub-optimal, it's not terrible by any stretch but saying you "don't lack anything defensively" is going way too far.

Tigana was an effective ball-winner but ultimately I think you lack a holding midfielder and someone to cover that space in front of your defence.

Which quote are you referring to? I've never said Xavi covers the central holding position -he's where he's depicted.

I find it pretty inconsistent from you what you have said about Xavi and Tigana as you won the decades draft with the very same players in a 4-2-3-1 spearheaded by Maradona and in front of 2 attacking full backs and Passarella in CB, against a midfield of Breitner, Matthaus and Iniesta:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/decades-draft-tournament-cutch-vs-theon.376710/

This is your quote:

Midfield
In midfield Xavi and Tigana will look to sit deep and keep it tight in front of the defence. Xavi will look utilise his exceptional passing range by spraying the ball around the pitch and through gaps into the feet of Maradona.

Tigana is the greatest French central midfielder of all time and brings a monstrous defensive work-ethic to toughen up the midfield whilst possessing the technical ability to fit the exquisite passing style of his team mates.

So what changed since then?

 

[Raees]

Which quote are you referring to? I've never said Xavi covers the central holding position -he's where he's depicted.

I find it pretty inconsistent from you what you have said about Xavi and Tigana as you won the decades draft with the very same players in a 4-2-3-1 spearheaded by Maradona and in front of 2 attacking full backs and Passarella in CB, against a midfield of Breitner, Matthaus and Iniesta:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/decades-draft-tournament-cutch-vs-theon.376710/

This is your quote:


So what changed since then?

Who was the opposition and that defence is stunning. You don't need a proper DM with a defence of that quality!

 

[Enigma_87]

Who was the opposition and that defence is stunning. You don't need a proper DM with a defence of that quality!

The opposition was a quality Cutch side as well - Messi, Kale and Best in attack. The midfield was Breitner, Matthaus and Iniesta and the defence was Ayala, Nesta, Maldini and Suurbier.

Apart from Suurbier at RB I think it was one of the best sides I've seen around.

 

[Moby]

Don't bring up that Decades Draft.

 

[Enigma_87]

Don't bring up that Decades Draft.

Why? Didn't participate but was a quality one IMO. There were some great side in it lot of favorites there.

 

[Moby]

Why? Didn't participate but was a quality one IMO. There were some great side in it lot of favorites there.

Check the final.

 

[Ecstatic]

Enigma has a better offensive trio and 2 of the greatest playmakers.

However, it's challenging for Xavi (CM) and Tigana (B2B*) to limit the impact of ADS.

On the other hand, the midfield of Raees seems to be stronger defensively.

I will follow the discussions and change my vote if necessary.

*Tigana was a B2B with France at the Euro 84 (Luis Fernandez being the #6). On the other hand, possible that Tigana was capable to operate as a pure DM for Bordeaux.

 

[Raees]

The opposition was a quality Cutch side as well - Messi, Kale and Best in attack. The midfield was Breitner, Matthaus and Iniesta and the defence was Ayala, Nesta, Maldini and Suurbier.

Apart from Suurbier at RB I think it was one of the best sides I've seen around.

What a match up!

 

[Theon]

Which quote are you referring to? I've never said Xavi covers the central holding position -he's where he's depicted.

So what changed since then?

The quote that I quoted.. where you said Tigana would press the midfield and Xavi would cover the space in behind.

As I mentioned in that post, the issue is that you see this as an excellent midfield base defensively which it clearly isn't - you have no holding midfielder, when Xavi usually played with at least one. Rather than acknowledge this and show some balance to your arguments, you seem set on insisting that it's somehow a great fit.

Your quotes suggest that Tigana will play his natural box-to-box midfielder role and you've made a few comments on how he'll press Di Stefano and hassle players around the pitch. You've also stated that he'll break forward in possession and posted a match compilation which shows his impact moving forward:

Tigana's role is mainly defensive of course due to that being the best aspect of his game - winning the ball back, but he will also combine with Xavi and move vertically when we're with the ball. Tigana will use his natural game here like he did against Italy for example.



When we're on the ball he'll move vertically and Vasovic will push up to cover the space.

The issue, quite clearly, is that when Tigana 1. Vacates space to pressure the opposition, and 2. Breaks forward in possession then Xavi will be exposed in midfield. I rate Xavi extremely highly but that positional discipline/holding midfield role was never really an aspect of his game. Given that you're up against Di Stefano who rattled in close to a goal every game in his peak years at Madrid, then I think it's an issue.

Nothing has changed since then, having Xavi/Tigana in a midfield double pivot was an issue for my team and it got criticised throughout the draft. I was very close to upgrading the midfield with Matthaus, but Maradona was far too tempting and when I added Baresi and Carlos Alberto to the side the defense was that good that it wasn't a massive problem any more. I also used Tigana in a restrictive role as a defensive midfielder, whereas you seem to have him pushing forward and leaving Xavi in no-man's land.

My views on Xavi are clear, I've picked him enough times in drafts and I think you would do better to respond to the points raised as opposed to bringing up irrelevant old match threads.

Not one person has criticised Xavi as a player - they have just said that he is 1) not great defensively 2) Had a far, far more solid base to work with for Spain.

These are just facts so don't act like people are criticising the use of Xavi for no reason. You know all this anyway - as do I - in the last four drafts he has been used as such, Gio, Theon, Theon, Gio and in every single on this has come up, he needs the correct system if you want to replicate his Barca/Spain form and neither of us did it.

In your first game you had a prime Edgar Davids - as opposed to a 22 year old Roy Keane - yet he wasn't held to be enough. In my game I had a prime Jean Tigana and that wasn't enough, either. This is the same issue. In that draft I picked Xavi as a first round pick yet people criticised my use of him, so the fact that you picked him 4th has no relevance.

 

[Enigma_87]

Enigma has a better offensive trio and 2 of the greatest playmakers. However, it's challenging for Xavi (CM) and Tigana (B2B) to limit the impact of ADS.

On the other hand, the midfield of Raees seems to be stronger defensively.

I will follow the discussions and change my vote if necessary.

Sir Bobby is also not a passenger he'll help out and keep the rest occupied. As Tuppet said Tigana is one of the greatest players in the defensive phase. Most sites like xmortal, bigsoccer etc even put him as top 10 DM of all time(of course they are not a credible source all that much but then still another view)

Even Wenger who almost signed him depicted him as such:

“I remember Tigana was 63kg, a defensive midfielder and he was unbelievable defensively. He had that technique. I played against him [in a kickabout] at the European Championship in Sweden in 1992 and he was still the same – he won every challenge.

Note: I'm not using him as anchor here, just want to be clear once again. I'm bringing those quotes to represent his defensive game and he will play very close to what I've put as highlights from that Italy game at the WC. IMO I don't need a classic anchor in this game against a mobile and all action #10 in Di Stefano. IMO Tigana who has a great defensive game and will be occupied most of the time with Di Stefano running around the pitch. Tigana has the stamina, speed and tenacity to hassle him and limit his game. That's the plan. While of course when we're with the ball he will move vertically and Vasovic will move to anchoring to limit the opportunity for counter attack.

 

[Raees]

Has a team with Di Stefano at the heart of it ever won a Draft?

 

[Enigma_87]

The quote that I quoted.. where you said Tigana would press the midfield and Xavi would cover the space in behind.

As I mentioned in that post, the issue is that you see this as an excellent midfield base defensively which it clearly isn't - you have no holding midfielder, when Xavi usually played with at least one. Rather than acknowledge this and show some balance to your arguments, you seem set on insisting that it's somehow a great fit.

Your quotes suggest that Tigana will play his natural box-to-box midfielder role and you've made a few comments on how he'll press Di Stefano and hassle players around the pitch. You've also stated that he'll break forward in possession and posted a match compilation which shows his impact moving forward:

As I said at the EURO 2008 Xavi was player of the tournament and played alongside a box to box Senna in midfield. I've already explained above how the team will move forward when in possession.

The issue, quite clearly, is that when Tigana 1. Vacates space to pressure the opposition, and 2. Breaks forward in possession then Xavi will be exposed in midfield. I rate Xavi extremely highly but that positional discipline/holding midfield role was never really an aspect of his game. Given that you're up against Di Stefano who rattled in close to a goal every game in his peak years at Madrid, then I think it's an issue.

Nothing has changed since then, having Xavi/Tigana in a midfield double pivot was an issue for my team and it got criticised throughout the draft. I was very close to upgrading the midfield with Matthaus, but Maradona was far too tempting and when I added Baresi and Carlos Alberto to the side the defense was that good that it wasn't a massive problem any more. I also used Tigana in a restrictive role as a defensive midfielder, whereas you seem to have him pushing forward and leaving Xavi in no-man's land.

My views on Xavi are clear, I've picked him enough times in drafts and I think you would do better to respond to the points raised as opposed to bringing up irrelevant old match threads.

again, read up how I'm using Tigana. He will move vertically into space and his place will be covered by Vasovic while Raees team tracks back and goes into his own half. Tigana is still the deepest of the midfield trio and here you have Sir Bobby whose defensive game and also work rate is very well appreciated.

Just to underline I'm not relying on Tigana to elevate my offensive game - just the contrary. And also I can understand if I was up against a classic #10, but with Gerson and Deschamps behind Di Stefano(unlikely either of them will be charging forward on consistent basis) I have much more use of a energetic player who will cover for Di Stefano and chase him around, instead of putting a dedicated DM with Di Stefano roaming all over the place.

Anyhow let's agree to disagree as we'll be debating this in circles most likely.

 

[Ecstatic]

@Enigma_87

Thanks for the answer.

I will come back tomorrow with fresh ideas.

 

[Enigma_87]

Has a team with Di Stefano at the heart of it ever won a Draft?

It was a great match up and I love Cutch side as well.

@Enigma_87

Thanks for the answer.

I will come back tomorrow with fresh ideas.

Cheers.

 

[antohan]

I find it pretty inconsistent from you what you have said about Xavi and Tigana as you won the decades draft with the very same players in a 4-2-3-1 spearheaded by Maradona and in front of 2 attacking full backs and Passarella in CB, against a midfield of Breitner, Matthaus and Iniesta:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/decades-draft-tournament-cutch-vs-theon.376710/

This is your quote:


So what changed since then?

The quote isn't inconsistent. He is only relating to Xavi's creative contribution and putting the defensive onus on Tigana.

 

[antohan]

The opposition was a quality Cutch side as well - Messi, Kale and Best in attack. The midfield was Breitner, Matthaus and Iniesta and the defence was Ayala, Nesta, Maldini and Suurbier.

Apart from Suurbier at RB I think it was one of the best sides I've seen around.

Nailed on to settle that game. @Cutch and crap rightbacks have some history!

 

[Enigma_87]

The quote isn't inconsistent. He is only relating to Xavi's creative contribution and putting the defensive onus on Tigana.

I think the Gerson/Xavi comparison in terms of defensive game brought some confusion, but let's not get there once again as for 2 pages this is the probably only talking point

Nailed on to settle that game. @Cutch and crap rightbacks have some history!

Wasn't Suurbier rated highly at some point in the early eras of draft history?

 

[Moby]

Probably was and still should be.

People pay way too much heed to some who just shout the loudest.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Think the Tigana-Xavi combo would work well enough.

Don't fancy Gerson there (not with Di Stefano in the mix), but then again I always have some trouble seeing how Gerson would work in most fantasy setups that aren't especially tailored to accommodating him. Probably my fault more than the manager's, but there it is.

 

[Cutch]

The opposition was a quality Cutch side as well - Messi, Kale and Best in attack. The midfield was Breitner, Matthaus and Iniesta and the defence was Ayala, Nesta, Maldini and Suurbier.

Apart from Suurbier at RB I think it was one of the best sides I've seen around.

Wow, that team was even better than i remembered. Beautiful. What a side of Theons to come up against in the final though, classic matchup that.

Nailed on to settle that game. @Cutch and crap rightbacks have some history!

It's certainly cost me a few times, on the other hand my left backs are usually awesome. Maldini and Nilton Santos on a few occasions each. Eyzaguirre and Suurbier still give me nightmares

 

[antohan]

Wasn't Suurbier rated highly at some point in the early eras of draft history?

Nope, never.

 

[Raees]

Think the Tigana-Xavi combo would work well enough.

Don't fancy Gerson there (not with Di Stefano in the mix), but then again I always have some trouble seeing how Gerson would work in most fantasy setups that aren't especially tailored to accommodating him. Probably my fault more than the manager's, but there it is.

Gerson is a really well rounded CM.. only thing he lacks is pace but by CM standards he is in a different league to Scholes in the 07/08 side for example and would easily suit playing alongside Carrick in that side.

Such a direct player as well, hence why he could play in a possession side and a more counter attacking outfit. He would be a good fit for a Di Stefano and awesome with Jairzinho and MVB ahead of him as runners.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I really have no idea how to decide this match. Only thing I can think is that Raees attack seems a bit more fluid and teamwork oriented as opposed to being as individually based. Maybe thats just perception though on my part hence no idea yet how to vote

 

[Raees]

I really have no idea how to decide this match. Only thing I can think is that Raees attack seems a bit more fluid and teamwork oriented as opposed to being as individually based. Maybe thats just perception though on my part hence no idea yet how to vote

For me to get best out of Ronaldinho you need an Etoo or a Ronaldo stretching the play for him.

For me Eusebio is definitely a striker so no issues with him up front but he definitely drops deep to pick up the ball and that is majority of his way of attacking which is different to Van Basten who can do that but knows when to stay out of the way and provide verticality to the attack.

Another thing which hasn't been spoken about is the goal threat of Gerson from long range which could be a decisive factor in a game like this (193 goals). That's brilliant numbers. Jairzinho also has proven goal threat and ability to destroy all time great full backs .. it is a very complimentary attack where every part fits together well.

My own perceived weakness is CB because I lack names which scan votes would know much about but in the context of the match up I don't think they would be found wanting as style wise I think the play will be in front of them a lot.

It's been consistently a difference of three votes all game - so frustrating! I will be unlikely to contribute for rest of game. So lads if you haven't put in your vote, no worries but your thoughts on the game would be appreciated!

@Joga Bonito @Gio @prath92 @Balu @oneniltothearsenal