Black Sheep Draft QF - Joga vs. RedTiger/Peyroteo

With players at peak, who wins?

  • Total voters
    35
  • Poll closed .
@Joga Bonito is Pele Kryptonite. I remember in the 40s draft when even Pele-Muller partnership couldn't win the game against him. Actually come to think of it, I don't remember Pele winning a crunch draft game ever, which is bonkers.

Well played both mangers, it was really interesting to follow.
 
Tuppet said:
@Joga Bonito is Pele Kryptonite. I remember in the 40s draft when even Pele-Muller partnership couldn't win the game against him. Actually come to think of it, I don't remember Pele winning a crunch draft game ever, which is bonkers.

Well played both mangers, it was really interesting to follow.
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Wasn't quite sure which Pele it was to be frank. Both the earlier and latter version would make sense in this setup and maybe he should have been sold the idea(not the player) a bit more.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Wasn't quite sure which Pele it was to be frank. Both the earlier and latter version would make sense in this setup and maybe he should have been sold the idea(not the player) a bit more.
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From what I've seen there is not that much between the two versions to be honest. Just the natural progression of a player getting more mature and losing some physicality. It wasn't quite as drastic as someone like Scholes. In both versions he was an elite creative forward who can score from anywhere and also set up a few for others.
 
Tuppet said:
From what I've seen there is not that much between the two versions to be honest. Just the natural progression of a player getting more mature and losing some physicality. In both versions he was an elite creative forward who can score from anywhere and also set up a few for others.
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I watched the '58 final some day ago and he was a different beast there compared to the '70 one. He had none of the smooth playmaking tendencies at that age and relied on just being way too naturally gifted. The Swedes had just put on a masterclass performance defensively against Soviet and beat them with 2-0 so their defense was strong. But his combination of strength, balance and a world class first touch saw him penetrate the Swedish defense almost at will through out the game.

He'd receive a ball faced towards his own goal, get hit by a monster tackle but he kept the balance just enough to stay in control of the ball, whether it was bouncing around or not and then he would try to get past them or set up a teammate. Wasn't none of that smooth playmaking qualities of his latter years shining through. Was sort of a one man attack.
 
Theon said:
In particular I think the contribution of Ruud Gullit would be significant yet its had very little mention - in my opinion he's comfortably one of the most underrated players throughout these Caf drafts. I've never picked him myself and he's the type of player I'd like Joga to pick one time and put some real effort into selling properly (a la Schuster, Suarez) as he really was a fantastic player. When I first watched that Holland side it was Gullit who stood out ahead of both Rijkaard and Van Basten - part of that was obviously his appearance and sheer physicality and size, but he was also the most consistently involved in the game out of all three (i.e. in both phases) and at the time seemed to me to be their most important player. Even in the 3-1 against England when Van Basten bagged a hatrick it was Gullit who stood out to me with his two assists and overall contribution to the game.
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Joga Bonito said:
Given the sheer ability of Pele, Ronaldo and Gullit (who not surprisingly has gone under the radar yet again),
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Mentioned the same thing in this very match-thread before.

Heh, and funnily enough was just about to do that and went for him in the ballon d'or round but he was already picked by RT/Peyroteo in the first round.

Peyroteo said:
hanks @RedTiger for introducing me to these draft things and of course to @antohan and @The Stain, I had a lot of fun, learnt a lot and I'll be participating often in these. Good job guys :D
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Cheers and great game @Peyroteo @RedTiger . Hope to see more of you in the future drafts @Peyroteo , esp with regards to some of the Portugese players whom I'd love to know more about (esp the ones from the 1960s Benfica vintage) and always had a soft spot for the likes of Germano and Coluna for instance.

Chesterlestreet said:
Hiden played a blinder against England, iirc. Which was why Chapman wanted him: Saved everything the likes of Dixie Dean threw (or kicked, or headed) at him.

He was known as a quick and physically imposing player who got the better of big, strong forwards (he was considered excellent in the area). Which further explains Chapman's interest. He would have been a good fit for the fast paced and physical English game.
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Cheers for that info Chester, any other interesting material on him in English? The ones I've been able to find are in online 'books' which can't be translated without typing out every single word individually.



antohan said:
Matthäus won that for @Joga Bonito. As dominant as Keane, but with a greater goal threat. Lucho on steroids, basically @Moby
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:lol:

Tuppet said:
@Joga Bonito is Pele Kryptonite. I remember in the 40s draft when even Pele-Muller partnership couldn't win the game against him. Actually come to think of it, I don't remember Pele winning a crunch draft game ever, which is bonkers.

Well played both mangers, it was really interesting to follow.
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That partnership won mate, albeit the match itself being a close one.
 
Missed this one but the scoreline reflects how tight this was. For Joga I thought the Baggio/Kocsis duo were well set to have a good game given the relative softness of the Charles/Costacurta duo. Didn't really buy the concerns over a Vieira and Keane partnership: if those two consummate all-rounders cannot carve out a functioning partnership, then nobody can. For RedTiger/Peyroteo I thought Gullit's size and athleticism would have caused problems for Schweinsteiger and that Ronaldo would probably overpower Carlos Alberto at some point to net.
 
Joga Bonito said:
That partnership won mate, albeit the match itself being a close one.
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Ohh penalties !! and a misleading score line.

Annahnomoss said:
I watched the '58 final some day ago and he was a different beast there compared to the '70 one. He had none of the smooth playmaking tendencies at that age and relied on just being way too naturally gifted. The Swedes had just put on a masterclass performance defensively against Soviet and beat them with 2-0 so their defense was strong. But his combination of strength, balance and a world class first touch saw him penetrate the Swedish defense almost at will through out the game.

He'd receive a ball faced towards his own goal, get hit by a monster tackle but he kept the balance just enough to stay in control of the ball, whether it was bouncing around or not and then he would try to get past them or set up a teammate. Wasn't none of that smooth playmaking qualities of his latter years shining through. Was sort of a one man attack.
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I think he was still all those things in 70s world cup, to lesser extent ofcourse. He had to take a more important role in the team and be more of a playmaker, and his physical stats naturally declined, but he was hardly a different player or a static playmaker though. I watched a lot of Pele games when I thought I scored him :( , and I honestly didn't see a difference which is markedly different than what other players go through. Here is for example a small highlight from 70 WC -

 
Wow. It looked like the most interesting game of this draft.

I will read it with great interest.
 
Joga Bonito said:
Cheers for that info Chester, any other interesting material on him in English?
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Doesn't seem to be, I'm afraid. Most sites just quote the same passage (which mentions the Chapman thing without elaborating).

German sites have considerably more information about him. He was - in short - considered as one of the best keepers around 1930. What that tells us about him is another matter.

Clearly first rate at the time and described as strong, fast and tough (he was known for bullying opposition strikers). The only directly «modern» trait of his I can find is his height - he was fairly tall, listed as 1.84/1.85.

Doesn't seem to have that «progressive» reputation which often makes pre-Yashin keepers stand out when they're lauded as greats.

He is generally very highly rated, though.

PS The match referred to above was a 0-0 affair with England in 1930, apparently an absolute phantom performance by your man which no doubt would have boosted his reputation significantly.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Doesn't seem to be, I'm afraid. Most sites just quote the same passage (which mentions the Chapman thing without elaborating).

German sites have considerably more information about him. He was - in short - considered as one of the best keepers around 1930. What that tells us about him is another matter.

Clearly first rate at the time and described as strong, fast and tough (he was known for bullying opposition strikers). The only directly «modern» trait of his I can find is his height - he was fairly tall, listed as 1.84/1.85.

Doesn't seem to have that «progressive» reputation which often makes pre-Yashin keepers stand out when they're lauded as greats.

He is generally very highly rated, though.

PS The match referred to above was a 0-0 affair with England in 1930, apparently an absolute phantom performance by your man which no doubt would have boosted his reputation significantly.
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Cheers, good to know.
 
Good game @Joga Bonito you really know how to sell players:)

I can't believe our team containing the multifaceted attack of Pele, Ronaldo, Gullit and Augusto lost this game.:( When it comes to players natural roles, our team was so balanced you could have used it as a spirit level.

Well done on your first draft @Peyroteo , you held your own in this game in my absence today and the team we drafted is definitely one of my favourites in the last couple of years.

I hope you carry on playing the drafts in future but I'm sure you will as your an addict now who needs a fix:D
 
Tuppet said:
Ohh penalties !! and a misleading score line.


I think he was still all those things in 70s world cup, to lesser extent ofcourse. He had to take a more important role in the team and be more of a playmaker, and his physical stats naturally declined, but he was hardly a different player or a static playmaker though. I watched a lot of Pele games when I thought I scored him :( , and I honestly didn't see a difference which is markedly different than what other players go through. Here is for example a small highlight from 70 WC -

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That's sort of the difference, most(if not everybody) would agree he improved. He went from being a leading striker and a one man army at times to later on being sort of a second striker, facilitator/playmaker type of player. He was still exeptional individually and beat men with ease and all that though of course.

What set him apart was that mix of natural talent of balance, strength and technique. Which was sort of kryptonite to the defenses at the time. Who defended aggressively and if you couldn't tank the first challenge it wouldn't matter how skilled you were as you'd still lose the ball. The Swedish defense had resisted the likes of John Charles, Ivanov, Rahn/Seeler/Schäfer/Walter/Szymaniak and just conceded one goal against these. There were well rounded GOAT quality dribblers like Hamrin, Skoglund and Garrincha in that game alone yet Pele had such a strong impact.

Of course not just down to him as Brazil had a great team with strong performances from others players as well.



 
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Good to have a lot of voters and see new participants in the draft discussions like @giorno and @Peyroteo.

Strange not to see here the Sporting Clube de Portugal without Hilario, Travacos, Figo and... Peyroteo :wenger:
 
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