Black Sheep Draft QF - Joga vs. RedTiger/Peyroteo

With players at peak, who wins?


  • Total voters
    35
  • Poll closed .
Pelé might have said that but when he faced Figueroa he still found joy.

It's very easy to imagine Cristiano making those diagonal runs to the middle with Pelé dropping a bit.

Videos aren't to be posted directly in the thread mate, please hyperlink them.

And I don't see how Figueroa is at fault for that goal in any manner, if anything it's Matosas (if I'm not mistaken) losing him which leads to the goal.


If you want to go down that route, how about this goal for instance, where Baggio makes Bergomi, your best defender, look like an amateur treading in treacle?

Baggio vs Bergomi 1



Or this one for that matter

Baggio vs Bergomi 2

0.45 seconds, fouls Baggio in the box comically before Baggio converts the penalty

Or the 9 goals (without counting assists) that he's had against Bergomi when Baggio's played against him?

But no, that doesn't make sense at all and Bergomi is a top notch defender who is evenly matched against Baggio. However, in the light of Kocsis's advantage over your centre back duo and of course the support of Brehme, I'd back Baggio to gain the edge over Bergomi and your defense here.

And I don't see how it's hard to see Pele and Ronaldo having better games than Baggio and Kocsis?

So yes, I can see the reasoning behind harms, anto's and several other posters view that Kocsis-Baggio can have a better game here than Pele-Ronaldo.
 
Videos aren't to be posted directly in the thread mate, please hyperlink them.

Didn't know that. How do I do it?

But no, that doesn't make sense at all and Bergomi is a top notch defender who is evenly matched against Baggio. However, in the light of Kocsis's advantage over your centre back duo and of course the support of Brehme, I'd back Baggio to gain the edge over Bergomi and your defense here.

So yes, I can see the reasoning behind harms, anto's and several other posters view that Kocsis-Baggio can have a better game here than Pele-Ronaldo.

We agree that your defense is superior and that our attack is superior. So it comes down to how people interpret relatively the match ups. That's fine.

You'd back Baggio against our defense but I'd back Pelé and Cristiano against anybody. As for Brehme, José Augusto was very fast and would help out Bergomi down our right.
 
@Peyroteo brehme would cut inside. They would completely dominate your midfield.


Still, Pelé doesn't lose as long as he's got a great team around him
 
@Peyroteo brehme would cut inside. They would completely dominate your midfield.


Still, Pelé doesn't lose as long as he's got a great team around him

I don't see them dominating the midfield at all. José Augusto on Brehme, and Vieira-Keane-Gullit are too physical and competitive to get dominated. Keane and Vieira could dominate midfields on their own, them playing together plus Gullit and we have 3 monsters in midfield.
 
I don't see them dominating the midfield at all. José Augusto on Brehme, and Vieira-Keane-Gullit are too physical and competitive to get dominated. Keane and Vieira could dominate midfields on their own, them playing together plus Gullit and we have 3 monsters in midfield.
Matthaus and brehme dominated the midfield against a dutch team with rijkaard and gullit in it. Neeskens and Matthaus are better, far better players than keane and vieira. Throw in the numerical superiority.

They'd control the game
 
Matthaus and brehme dominated the midfield against a dutch team with rijkaard and gullit in it. Neeskens and Matthaus are better, far better players than keane and vieira. Throw in the numerical superiority.

They'd control the game

In his team Joga has Brehme's arrow pointing down the line. If he comes to the middle either Baggio has to give some width in the left and stay too far from goal or they will play very narrow football
 
Just to summarise why I believe I'd have the edge here

Firstly, as good as RT/Peyroteo's attack is, it's rather centrally oriented with two wing-forwards - Ronaldo who is the greatest wing-forward ever, and J.Augusto who loved cutting in and was a one in two goalscorer for Benfica with Simoes being the more winger-ish player on the other flank providing service - and two great all round forwards in Gullit-Pele. C.Alberto is arguably the greatest RB of all time after Djalma Santos and there isn't a more tactically aware and defensively sound technical FB than him imo, and his physicality, pace and deceptive burst over the first few yards squares up well against Ronaldo with Neeskens providing ample cover against R.Carlos. I'd back Brehme-Schnellinger to do a good job of containing the right sided threat of Augusto-Gullit too for that matter.

Likewise, the indomitable Figueroa is the perfect panacea for the aerial threats of the opposition, he was absolutely imperious in the air. Also another factor would be that only R.Carlos is the primary source of wide-play in the opposition's side, so to what extent are they utilizing their aerial ability? They could do with a fairly wide-ish creative player in attack imo.

Of course, if any one happens to break through, no easy task given the defense, they'd have to face none other than arguably the greatest defender of all time in Baresi (discounting Beckenbauer of course). So it's just about as solid as it gets, even without taking the midfield into account.


Secondly, in midfield we have the 3 top notch all round B2B midfielders and the opposition too has a great pair of quality midfielders, with support from Gullit. However, given the top heavy set-up, I'd very much question the compatibility of Vieira-Keane given how they were both classic B2B players are not necessarily holding midfielders, yet they are playing together in a midfield pivot. Keane's metronomic passing ability is an absolute must in the opposition's side given the lack of a distinct playmaker (just as in mine too). So it makes more sense to build the midfield around him as opposed to pairing him with another B2B in a midfield pivot, which isn't bound to work imo. Gullit's industry would definitely come in handy but I'd much rather see that midfield pair in a 4-4-2 in free roles as opposed to being a midfield pivot of sorts in a 4-2-3-1, with a top heavy set-up. Defensively his midfield pairing looks a wee bit off with Vieira there imo. That could prove costly with the sheer dynamism of Lothar and Neeskens who are very much a significant threat with their lung-bursting forays forward. On the other hand, I'd back my midfield trio to keep a better handle on Keane-Vieira-Gullit, given it's more balanced set-up.


Finally, I've made my point on how Charles isn't necessarily a specialist centre-back, let alone one equipped to handle the multi-faceted threat of Kocsis. I'm not making him out to be a heading giant who would be ill at ease against Kocsis, mind. Charles just doesn't have the portfolio or the credentials at centre-back to take on such a mammoth task. Excellent centre-forward though and his record in the Serie A is stellar. Costacurta was a fine supporting act but in tandem with Charles, could find it tough to keep a tab on Kocsis and the free roaming Baggio or the attacking B2Bs joining in. The centre of the defense lacks of 'leader' figure with organisational skills (ala Baresi) and that could lead to it being less solid than it could potentially could be. Baggio has a sterling record against Bergomi but both are evenly matched imo but Brehme's attacking forays and Kocsis's link-up play (with the CB duo being unable to keep up with his elusive movement) could very well tip the balance in Baggio's favour. And the last thing you'd want to do is give a match-winner like Baggio the slightest of openings.


Given the sheer ability of Pele, Ronaldo and Gullit (who not surprisingly has gone under the radar yet again), chances are they could nab a goal here but relatively speaking, I'd back the chances of my attack outscoring his defense, relative to both defenses and set-ups on show here. I just can't see Charles-Costacurta keeping a clean sheet here or Vieira excelling defensively in a midfield B2B duo pairing in a pivot, whereas I can see my defense keeping a clean sheet against him in the best of scenarios.
 
Last edited:
Alright, one last summary of why I think our team would win:

- Pelé and Cristiano guarantee goals

- Big set piece advantage and counterattacks - on what should be a cagey game, this is how those games are decided

- Schweinsteiger - Gullit is a very bad match up for him, he won't enjoy having to chase our midfielders and he's not good enough at covering the space in front of the defense which should be taken advantage of by Pelé.

- Physical advantage

- Good match ups in defense. Charles is perfectly equiped to deal with Kocsis big aereal threat, whilst being athletic enough to contain him with the ball on the floor. Costacurta is the leader of our defense and his positioning along with Bergomi should be enough to give Baggio a terrible time.

- We have a better goalkeeper. Goalkeppers have been going under the radar in this draft but as Manchester United fans should know a great goalkeeper is worth a lot of goals
 
This has been a great match.. whoever goes out, you've done a cracking job either way.
 
This has been a great match.. whoever goes out, you've done a cracking job either way.
Indeed. It's very, very close. I rate Joga's side a lot(one of the best in the draft) and that defence is probably the best I've seen around here.

Could go either way and really was a hard choice, but ultimately the decider for me was the keeper. Hiden just sticks out as the worst player on the pitch.

I feel a back four(with either two of Schnellinger/Figueroa/Baresi) with world class keeper is better than Hiden and the three of them. Ronaldo and Pele are both capable of pulling some great long range shots from distance(as is R.Carlos) which ultimately can decide such a tight game.

I've went through Joga's gameplan but for me a quality right winger would've been better to break the deadlock instead of third CB.
 
By all means spend your time discussing Baggio, it will even that I wont be home until Sunday night and probably be hungover :angel:

:lol: Don't worry mate. I shamed myself as an Irish man by not drinking at all on St Patrick's Day yesterday, so I'll almost certainly drink myself senseless for the rest of the weekend.

If the match went to pens, we have a specialist in goal and I have a feeling having Baresi and Baggio take high pressure penalties wouldn't end well :angel:

Well played man :lol:. Got to admit I forgot about Joga's keeper when I decided on my vote, and it does undermine his otherwise impeccable defence to a degree.

This has been a great match thread by the way and its nicely set up for a tense finish.
 
Indeed. It's very, very close. I rate Joga's side a lot(one of the best in the draft) and that defence is probably the best I've seen around here.

Could go either way and really was a hard choice, but ultimately the decider for me was the keeper. Hiden just sticks out as the worst player on the pitch.

I feel a back four(with either two of Schnellinger/Figueroa/Baresi) with world class keeper is better than Hiden and the three of them. Ronaldo and Pele are both capable of pulling some great long range shots from distance(as is R.Carlos) which ultimately can decide such a tight game.

I've went through Joga's gameplan but for me a quality right winger would've been better to break the deadlock instead of third CB.

True totally overlooked the keeper point hmm.
 
Didn't know that. How do I do it?

Highlight the segment that you'd like to hyper link and click the hyperlink icon in the row of icons, it's the 7th icon from the left.

ould go either way and really was a hard choice, but ultimately the decider for me was the keeper. Hiden just sticks out

He was regarded as one of the best goalies of his era, the greatest Austrian goalkeeper of all time alongside W.Zeman and was the Austrian Wunderteam's goalie whilst winning the Central International European Cup (pre-cursor to the Euros). So much so Herbert Chapman went to great lengths to try and sign him for Arsenal, the best team in England at that point of time but was rejected by the stupid English FA of course. He then later moved to France and won 3 Coupe de France there and was regarded highly enough to even gain a cap for the French side. Unfortunately, most of the material on him isn't in English so it's hard to dig up stuff on him.

I've been meaning to respond to your post calling him a liability but I forgot to address it. Any reason why you consider him as such or is it do with a lack of familiarity?

Ronaldo and Pele are both capable of pulling some great long range shots from distance(as is R.Carlos) which ultimately can decide such a tight game.

Likewise, Casillas's pronounced aerial weakness could be disastrous with Brehme/C.Alberto/Neeskens and their inviting deliveries with none other than the Golden Head lurking about in the box. Excellent shot-stopper though.
 
Last edited:
^^

@Pat_Mustard
@Raees

Now I'm not claiming him to be a top tier goalie nor a match-winner, but given the choice between a great defense and a solid goalie; and a less than solid defense with players in unfamiliar/not-so-optimal roles (Costacurta tasked with being the leader of the defense - something which isn't really the best role for him and Charles as a specialist centre-back) and an excellent shot-stopping but aerially flawed goalie, I'd rather take the former tbh.

Costacurta is the leader of our defense and his positioning along with Bergomi should be enough to give Baggio a terrible time.
 
Brehme/C.Alberto/Neeskens and their inviting deliveries
This is actually something that I noticed instantly as soon as I looked at the team sheet but I didn't want to focus too much on Kocsis' aerial game as the other aspects of his game get overlooked.

There isn't much of a crossing presence in your team, if at all, that would be ideal for a striker like Kocsis, who while being an excellent all around player still was primarily known for his aerial game. A right-footed Brehme on the left is more likely to cut inside and add to the midfield as giorno said than delivering crosses for Kocsis, similarly CAT's attacking prowess lied in his passing, vision and playmaking than similar to someone like Cafu for example. With those two being your primary sources of width the aerial service is a bit underwhelming.
 
Schweinsteiger - Gullit is a very bad match up for him, he won't enjoy having to chase our midfielders and he's not good enough at covering the space in front of the defense which should be taken advantage of by Pelé.

I beg to disagree. Schweinsteiger doesn't have to 'chase' anyone and he provides the right blend of solidity and control on the ball. He was arguably the best midfielder in the WC 2010 alongside Xavi, and was the driving force behind Germany's 2014 WC win and one of the key influences in Bayern's treble. I don't buy that he isn't good enough at covering space in front of the defense with the support of Neeskens-Lothar and he isn't being utilised as a holding midfielder here either.

There isn't much of a crossing presence in your team, if at all, that would be ideal for a striker like Kocsis, who while being an excellent all around player still was primarily known for his aerial game.

And please enlighten me as to who the crossing presences are in the oppositions side? R.Carlos and?

A right-footed Brehme on the left is more likely to cut inside and add to the midfield as giorno said than delivering crosses for Kocsis,

:lol:

1/10

With those two being your primary sources of width the aerial service is a bit underwhelming.

Mind you, I do agree that C.Alberto is not a typical wing-back and it won't be ideal but Neeskens presence (as a free roaming midfielder in an extremely hard-working midfield trio) there is critical and makes it better imo. However, Brehme being an underwhelming source of aerial service is nothing short of a piss-take
 
Last edited:
He was regarded as one of the best goalies of his era, the greatest Austrian goalkeeper of all time alongside W.Zeman and was the Austrian Wunderteam's goalie whilst winning the Central International European Cup. So much so Herbert Chapman went to great lengths to try and sign him for Arsenal, the best team in England at that point of time but was rejected by the stupid English FA of course. He then later moved to France and won 3 Coupe de France there and was regarded highly enough to even gain a cap for the French side. Unfortunately, most of the material on him isn't in English so it's hard to dig up stuff on him.

I've been meaning to respond to your post calling him a liability but I forgot to address it. Any reason why you consider him as such or is it do with a lack of familiarity?

A bit of both actually. Keepers of that time are really hard to evaluate due to the lack of proper materials(let alone videos). One of the reasons why for example I don't rate a central defender like Da Guia as one of the best ever (although many sources put him in the very elite tier of defenders) and then at the same time going through some gifs @Raees posted in previous draft with his bodycheck defending gets you thinking.

Hiden is relatively unknown to me and I think the keeper of the Wunderteam at the time when they were favorites for the WC in 1934 was Platzer so I really am not sure of either level at the time. Casillas is not the best of his era, but is a dependable keeper who was part of some very successful teams and knowing his game is the factor for me.

I'd of course appreciate some more info on him and generally at least what was his style and what he excelled - reflexes, 1on1, positioning, in the air etc...
 
How is that relevant when discussing the aerial service for Kocsis?

Well given that my side doesn't boast much crossing presences and doesn't take advantage of Kocsis's aerial presence, it's very much relevant that the opposition doesn't boast too many crossing presences with the likes of Gullit, Pele and CR7 lying about. So just R.Carlos being the primary source of width the aerial service is a bit underwhelming isn't it, according to your logic.

Also come on, you can do better wumming than the Brehme cuts into the midfield part.
 
I beg to disagree. Schweinsteiger doesn't have to 'chase' anyone and there are very few whom I'd take over him in this role, providing the right blend of solidity and control on the ball. He was arguably the best midfielder in the WC 2010 alongside Xavi, and was the driving force behind Germany's 2014 WC win and one of the key influences in Bayern's treble.


And please enlighten me as to who the crossing presences are in the oppositions side? R.Carlos and?

With Bayern he had Javi Martinez behind him and with Germany Khedira. In your team he's the more defensive player in the midfield and I don't think he'll be enough to stop Pelé from getting the ball in that space in front of defense.

As for the second question, Cristiano Ronaldo and José Augusto. Benfica fans used to have a banner saying 'Augusto cruza. Águas marca' meaning 'Augusto crosses, Águas scores'. He was a fntastic crosser and he managed to get often to the byline. Cristiano Ronaldo's crossing is very underrated because he doesn't do it often enough, but he's also very good at it.
 
it's very much relevant that the opposition doesn't boast too many crossing presences with the likes of Gullit, Pele and CR7 lying about.
It isn't to the point in contention, while being an obvious weakness in itself. I don't see the opp. manager claiming that those players will be enjoying a lot of aerial service either.

Also come on, you can do better wumming than the Brehme cuts into the midfield part.
No, that's the best wumming I can do, sorry.
 
As for the second question, Cristiano Ronaldo and José Augusto. Benfica fans used to have a banner saying 'Augusto cruza. Águas marca' meaning 'Augusto crosses, Águas scores'. He was a fntastic crosser and he managed to get often to the byline. Cristiano Ronaldo's crossing is very underrated because he doesn't do it often enough, but he's also very good at it.

Ignore my replies to Aldo mate, we are just having a bit of fun, doubt he is serious.
 
Hiden is relatively unknown to me and I think the keeper of the Wunderteam at the time when they were favorites for the WC in 1934 was Platzer so I really am not sure of either level at the time.

The Austrian side was over it's peak during the 1934 WC and it's peak came during the early 1930s when they won the Central International European Cup against Meazza's Italy and were regarded as the best side in the world, and the fact that Chapman's Arsenal tried to sign him is a fair indication of his standing and quality.

I'd of course appreciate some more info on him and generally at least what was his style and what he excelled - reflexes, 1on1, positioning, in the air etc...

Definitely, will get back to you on that, have to do some translating :lol:
 
The Austrian side was over it's peak during the 1934 WC and it's peak came during the early 1930s when they won the Central International European Cup against Meazza's Italy and were regarded as the best side in the world, and the fact that Chapman's Arsenal tried to sign him is a fair indication of his standing and quality.



Definitely, will get back to you on that, have to do some translating :lol:

So Platzer replaced him after he moved to France? Looking at Wiki and some sources Hiden should be fairly young as a keeper at that time in his early 20's when he played for the Wunderteam.

Appreciate the info(and I guess others who are unfamiliar with him).
 
Pelé might have said that but when he faced Figueroa he still found joy.


It's very easy to imagine Cristiano making those diagonal runs to the middle with Pelé dropping a bit.

You know that it isn't peak Figueroa, right?
And it's probably worth to mention that Penarol won another game and the whole tournament, although it has more to do with the team and less with individuals, of course.
 
With Bayern he had Javi Martinez behind him and with Germany Khedira. In your team he's the more defensive player in the midfield and I don't think he'll be enough to stop Pelé from getting the ball in that space in front of defense.

No, that's a bit of a common misconception with Schweinsteiger. He was the controlling midfielder at the base, precisely why I drafted him to accompany the more fiery duo of Lothar-Neeskens, to bring a calm, controlling head to the equation and he would give the ideal base for those 2 to thrive in.

Brasilien-Deutschland.png


Balu - I always thought that was plain obvious. Schweinsteiger isn't a destroyer either, even though he clearly played the role of a holding midfielder next to Khedira for Germany for the last 5 years. He just offers more than the limited version of that role, but you still need someone holding in your team in pretty much every formation/tactic in football.

Even at the worldcup in 2010, Schweinsteiger played the DM role with Khedira constantly making runs forward. The whole team was playing deeper and trying to attack on the counter, that's why it wasn't as big a problem as it is in the more possession based tactics now. Khedira usually played for Stuttgart at the tip of a 3 man midfield, he was always a poor man's Ballack and never a defensive midfielder, let alone a holding midfielder. He also had the same problems at Real.

? Schweinsteiger was always the holding midfielder next to Khedira. Same at the last World Cup, when Khedira/Kramer played the attacking box to box role and Schweinsteiger played the deepest midfield role with Kroos somewhere inbetween as the playmaking CM.

I really like the line-up today. It looks like Löw finally went back to the World Cup winning tactics.

Sorry for the tags Balu, know you hate being quoted :lol:

Some good articles to refresh the memory of Schweinsteiger at his peak

Bayern coach Lous van Gaal has moved him in from the wing to a new role as a holder-playmaker, and it's planted in that middle ground that Schweinsteiger has blossomed. He is now the player that almost all Bayern's offensive moves pass through, and is one of a rare breed of creative midfielders seems to relish the physical side of the game.

What's more, Schweinsteiger's new deeper central vantage point has showed his skill at anticipation and game vision - surprise in a player once though of as somewhat impetuous.


Even before Ballack's injury ruled him out of the World Cup, Schweinsteiger was beginning to emerge at the Germany captain's most likely successor in his midfield role.
Since making his international debut in 2004, Schweinsteiger has become a mainstay of the Germany team and has shown his international class in superior performances at Euro 2004 and the World Cup in 2006.
Schweinsteiger struggled somewhat during Germany's Euro 2008 campaign, having earned a suspension after a red card in Germany's second group stage game, a loss to Croatia. But when he returned to the line-up against Portugal in the quarter-finals, his impact was undeniable. Schweinsteiger scored the opener, and set up headed goals from Miroslav Klose and Ballack with curling free kicks in the side's eventual 3-2 victory.

In the semi-final Germany won over Turkey, it was a similar story - it was a Schweinsteiger strike that drew the team level after they'd gone a goal down.

While his primary role in South Africa will be to play deep in midfield rather than up front poaching goals, Schweinsteriger still knows how to makes dangerous runs and has a wicked shot from distance. He's a good luck charm too, it seems. Whenever Schweinsteiger scores for Germany, they win.


As the substitutes and coaching staff tore onto the pitch he lay on the turf bloodied, battered, barely able to comprehend, utterly exhausted. But not beaten. No way. The final whistle had gone. Germany had triumphed and for all the admiring talk of this vibrant young team, for the brilliance of Mario Götze’s wonderful volleyed goal deep into extra-time, this World Cup had been won by Bastian Schweinsteiger.

On the eve of the final he had spoken in admiration of Argentina’s Javier Mascherano, “the leader of the pack of wolves” Schweinsteiger had called him, and this was a dog-eat-dog encounter which was brutally attritional from the moment Ezequiel Garay had left Christoph Kramer dazed and concussed with a fierce, unpunished shoulder barge.

Kramer was making his first competitive start for Germany – in a World Cup final – because Sami Khedira was cruelly injured in the warm-up. With Toni Kroos struggling disappointingly it meant that even more of the responsibility fell on Schweinsteiger. His performance was extraordinary.

Two Argentina players, Mascherano and Sergio Agüero, could have been sent off because of their desperate efforts to stop the 29‑year-old who got stronger and more defiant as he drove his team forward. At that whistle Schweinsteiger, when he finally was able to drag himself up, hugged Lukas Podolski and clenched his fist. Eyes squeezed tightly shut, deep in his thoughts.


This meant so much. It was not a classic final but it was enthralling all the same because no quarter was given. The outstanding performers were the defenders – there were epic displays from Garay and Pablo Zabaleta and for Germany there was Jérôme Boateng and Philipp Lahm – as they thwarted attack after attack. Above all there was Schweinsteiger.

No one won the ball more than he did, no one passed it more successfully, or more often, as he pushed Germany on in the face of growing adversity as they lost Khedira, as they lost Kramer, as Kroos almost gifted Gonzalo Higuaín a goal and as Mats Hummels cramped up so badly that he could barely walk. Schweinsteiger redoubled his efforts.

There were three amazing moments in extra-time alone. As he ran with the ball not just Mascherano but also Lucas Biglia launched at him, he was double-teamed and doubled up and Mascherano was fortunate to survive when he should have received a second caution. Then Agüero, also on a yellow card, caught him in the face and with blood streaming from his head Schweinsteiger was taken to the touchline, berating the world. He was again lying down, his legs twitching with pain as he was stitched up. Finally he desperately stopped a last Argentina attack, limped off, back turned, hands on hips, a picture of pain, unable to straighten his body as Lionel Messi’s free-kick sailed high over the crossbar.

And all this from a player who has been hampered by serious injury, who came into this World Cup struggling for fitness with damaged knees and with coach Joachim Löw doubting whether he could last 90 minutes, interchanging him with Khedira as he nursed them both back.

This triumph owed much to Löw’s assured coaching, his preparation and bold tactics as well as the innate talent of his squad. It may not have been an open final, a free-scoring game, but Löw refused to follow the route taken by Louis Van Gaal in Holland’s semi-final against Argentina when the Dutch coach tried to stop Messi by man-marking him with Nigel de Jong and stifling the space. Löw would not be so negative.
Löw oozed positivity beforehand predicting that whatever the result Germany could dominate world football for years to come and there is a body of evidence to support that claim in the impressive group of young players he has helped assemble with the likes of Manuel Neuer, Boateng, Kroos, Khedira, Götze, Thomas Müller, André Schürrle, Julian Draxler, Mesut Özil – the list goes on.

But there is also that old warrior Schweinsteiger. The ultimate midfielder in the world’s best midfield, who not only collected his 107th cap but also something far more precious, something that has eluded him and Germany throughout his career: a winner’s medal.

Adorned with his club Bayern Munich, with Bundesliga and Champions League titles, he has fallen short with Germany. Euro 2004, the World Cup in 2006, Euro 2008, the 2010 World Cup and Euro 2012 – Schweinsteiger played in them all and came so close in them all. This may not be his last World Cup but it must have felt like his best opportunity. How he took it.

Schweinsteiger was first up the steps as the medals were presented, also, a deep dark welt below his eye where Agüero had caught him and a fresh shirt on his back. Then the celebrations began. Germany were worthy champions and Schweinsteiger, who cradled that World Cup longer than anyone, the symbol of that victory and what the uncompromising lengths it had taken to earn it.


During an enjoyably acrimonious build-up to the Cape Town quarter-final Diego Maradona asked, in a mock German accent: "What's the matter, Schweinsteiger? Are you nervoushh?" The new Michael Ballack fired off his answer with the most commanding midfield performance of this World Cup.

Ballack, the leader of the German pack since 2002, must have felt his own value plunge at the Green Point Stadium as Bastian Schweinsteiger combined the roles of deep midfield destroyer, smooth passer and jinking winger: the post he filled for the Nationalmannschaft and Bayern Munich before his club called him in from the flank last season to assume more central duties.

"Schweini", as they know him in the land of Joachim Löw's new entertainers, was a marvel in Germany's 4-0 demolition of Maradona's Argentina, whose incoherent midfield were juxtaposed so painfully with the slick workings of Schweinsteiger, right, and Sami Khedira. With Javier Mascherano overrun in the screening role, Schweinsteiger sensed his opportunity to punish El Diego for his pre-match provocation, which Saturday's outstanding player had invited with a succession of swipes at Argentinian culture.

"The Argentinians provoke and are always whingeing to the referee to try and change his opinion," Schweinsteiger had said. "It starts before the match. You see their body language, how they gesticulate, how they try to influence the referee. That is not part of the game. That is a lack of respect. It's their mentality and character and we'll have to adjust. That's what the Argentinians are like in general." After this verbal war on the shore Schweinsteiger turned in a masterful display that explained why Chelsea are reported to be shovelling together £25m to offer to Bayern for his services. Weeks after Ballack's Stamford Bridge contract was not renewed Carlo Ancelotti has identified a new German enforcer. But only agitation on a Bolshevik scale from the player would persuade Bayern, who signed him at 14, to sell the most influential midfielder of this tournament and break up his partnership with Holland's Mark van Bommel.


Along with the thrust and tenacity of Schweinsteiger's play we witnessed a cameo from the old days when he swerved round the entire right side of Maradona's defence to deliver a pass for Arne Friedrich to score his first international goal. This flourish showed him to be capable of impersonating Ryan Giggs and Roy Keane in a single game.

"He was fabulous, I have to say. An extremely hard worker. He ran long distances, was a leader, the head of the whole set-up," said Löw, the Germany coach. "He was the linchpin in every attack we had. The way he set up Friedrich was second to none. You couldn't do that better, going through three or four players then feigning a pass and cutting out their defenders. A magnificent performance."

While this World Cup has cast shadow across its most aristocratic names – Lionel Messi, Wayne Rooney, Cristiano Ronaldo, Fernando Torres – Schweinsteiger is foremost among a group who have used the grandest stage to elevate their own standing in mid-career. Still only 25 he already has 78 caps. His 50th came at 23. But there were undulations along the way. He was the star of Germany's third-place play-off victory over Portugal at the 2006 World Cup but lost his place on the left to Lukas Podolski at Euro 2008 before returning to flay Portugal again with a goal and assists for Ballack and Miroslav Klose.

In Löw's youthful constellation Germany have devised a system that allows Schweinsteiger's new attributes to glow. The two-man defensive midfield partnership might not seem the most enthralling spectacle but when it works this well it liberates the four most advanced players to attack. Among English club football's best examples would be Patrick Vieira and Emmanuel Petit (Arsenal) and Mascherano and Xabi Alonso (Liverpool).

To play two lumpen tacklers in those positions is anachronistic. But blessed is the coach who can employ two defensively strong ball players, as Löw can. Schweinsteiger worked on his tackling at Bayern to add the final virtue to his game and his presence is a gift to Khedira, 23, who is learning his business next to a more experienced and combative pro. This radiant German set-up was not properly tested by England but withstood a long spell of Argentinian pressure in mid-game before Klose and Friedrich scored within six minutes to close the deal. In their planning room Spain will be searching for a formula that negates the flashing German counterattack and disrupts the central defensive block of four that blanked out Carlos Tevez and Messi.

"We did extremely well tactically and scored whenever we had an opportunity," Schweinsteiger said. "Argentina are one of the great teams, so it's awesome to beat them, but now we must look to the semi-final. I'm happy with my own performance but I can only be good if the team are good. Everyone contributed. This is far from easy. We need a great deal of team spirit, but that's what we have. We all enjoy playing in this team."

Even before Paraguay had been knocked out in the day's other quarter-final Schweinsteiger said: "I'd rather have Spain, to be honest. They're also a top favourite but we lost 1-0 to them two years ago [in the final of Euro 2008] and I'd like to take on the strongest." These are not the thoughts of a nervoushh man.

:lol: @ Maradona
 
Matthaus and brehme dominated the midfield against a dutch team with rijkaard and gullit in it. Neeskens and Matthaus are better, far better players than keane and vieira. Throw in the numerical superiority.

They'd control the game

Joga has an exceptional midfield but I think you're going a touch overboard here personally - I can't imagine Keane ever being 'dominated' in midfield, lest of all when he's partnered with players like Vieira and Ruud Gullit.

I disagree that Matthaus and Neeskens are 'far better' than Keane as well. They're both certainly more well rounded, but Keane absolutely mastered his role and I don't think either of them would play that role better than he would.

I also disagree that they would control the game, if by that you mean dominate possession against RT/P. It's clearly a defensive team and I fancy the interplay between Pele/Gullit/Ronaldo et al to have them pinned back at times throughout the match. I don't think any team would dominate possession here, or control the game as you put it.
 
Joga has an exceptional midfield but I think you're going a touch overboard here personally - I can't imagine Keane ever being 'dominated' in midfield, lest of all when he's partnered with players like Vieira and Ruud Gullit.

I disagree that Matthaus and Neeskens are 'far better' than Keane as well. They're both certainly more well rounded, but Keane absolutely mastered his role and I don't think either of them would play that role better than he would.

Agreed, and I'd actually say Keane was arguably the best controlling midfielder amongst them (with Lothar and Schweinsteiger following closely behind), in terms of controlling the tempo of a match and playing those quick between the line passes, whilst Lothar and Neeskens were more 'talented' on the ball with regards to creativity and long-range passing, though Keane was no slouch in this regard either.

That being said, don't quite like the Vieira-Keane duo in a midfield pivot of sorts and have already elaborated on it in the last page.
 
I couldn't really decide in this match and I actually really like the theme that Joga has gone for, which is one of the more original approaches in these drafts. Ultimately though I think it does lack a little bit of creativity going forward (particularly when compared to the opposition) and I think his exceptional midfield is well matched by RT/P.

In particular I think the contribution of Ruud Gullit would be significant yet its had very little mention - in my opinion he's comfortably one of the most underrated players throughout these Caf drafts. I've never picked him myself and he's the type of player I'd like Joga to pick one time and put some real effort into selling properly (a la Schuster, Suarez) as he really was a fantastic player. When I first watched that Holland side it was Gullit who stood out ahead of both Rijkaard and Van Basten - part of that was obviously his appearance and sheer physicality and size, but he was also the most consistently involved in the game out of all three (i.e. in both phases) and at the time seemed to me to be their most important player. Even in the 3-1 against England when Van Basten bagged a hatrick it was Gullit who stood out to me with his two assists and overall contribution to the game.

But yeah, close margins this one - wouldn't begrudge either team the victory.
 
When I first watched that Holland side it was Gullit who stood out ahead of both Rijkaard and Van Basten - part of that was obviously his appearance and sheer physicality and size, but he was also the most consistently involved in the game out of all three (i.e. in both phases) and at the time seemed to me to be their most important player. Even in the 3-1 against England when Van Basten bagged a hatrick it was Gullit who stood out to me with his two assists and overall contribution to the game.
Yeah. And that final against USSR in 1988 will be forever remembered as van Basten's game, although Gullit was more threatening (in this game and, imo, throughout the tournament)
 
Sorry for the tags Balu, know you hate being quoted :lol:
No, it's fine. The myth of Khedira as the defensive holding midfielder next to Schweinsteiger really needs to be destroyed.
 
16 minutes to go... 18 to 17. Who's going to be the one changing team and break Joga´s heart? C'mon guys I know you want to
 
Hiden played a blinder against England, iirc. Which was why Chapman wanted him: Saved everything the likes of Dixie Dean threw (or kicked, or headed) at him.

He was known as a quick and physically imposing player who got the better of big, strong forwards (he was considered excellent in the area). Which further explains Chapman's interest. He would have been a good fit for the fast paced and physical English game.
 
Goddamnit. That's actually painful :lol: Can't believe we lost with CR7 and Pelé.

Well done @Joga Bonito! That's a great team and you did a great job. Thanks @RedTiger for introducing me to these draft things and of course to @antohan and @The Stain, I had a lot of fun, learnt a lot and I'll be participating often in these. Good job guys :D
 
Goddamnit. That's actually painful :lol: Can't believe we lost with CR7 and Pelé.

Well done @Joga Bonito! That's a great team and you did a great job. Thanks @RedTiger for introducing me to these draft things and of course to @antohan and @The Stain, I had a lot of fun, learnt a lot and I'll be participating often in these. Good job guys :D
Brilliant first try! Hopefully you'll stick with us