Black Sheep Draft QF - Joga vs. RedTiger/Peyroteo

With players at peak, who wins?

  • Total voters
    35
  • Poll closed .

antohan

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-------------------------------Team Joga Bonito---------------------vs.-------------Team RedTiger/Peyroteo----------

JOGA'S TACTICS

DEF

Brehme - LWB - License to venture forward; Bremhe-Kocsis :drool:
Schnellinger - LCB - Perfect at manning the left hand channels and covering Brehme if need be
Baresi - SWP - Organizing the rear-guard and impeccable reading of the game
Figueroa - RCB - Complete defender, with expertise and proven experience in the channels too
C.Alberto - SRWB - Supporting Wing-back, given license to venture forward but his composure, technique and passing would make for tasty combinations with Neeskens/Baggio in the opposition's half

MID

Schweinsteiger - CDM - Not necessarily a holding midfielder but a relatively reserved one, his prime remit here would be to maintain control on the ball with his excellent short range passing, link-up play and occasionally switch it out to the flanks
Neeskens - RB2B - Classic all-rounder, with freedom to roam around the pitch, primarily towards the right flank
Matthäus - Att B2B - Der Panzer, the pinnacle of B2B play, with his indomitable presence in the engine room, ability to score goals, influence proceedings, long-range missiles and mazy and powerful runs forward.

ATT

Baggio - Free Roaming Fwd - Given freedom to roam around the attacking third. Sheer incisiveness, productivity and magical dribbling ability and technique.
Kocsis - CF - Goals, goals and more goals. Excellent link-up, hold-up play and technique too.


Strategy - Keep it tight at the back, let the midfield impose itself on both phases; let Baggio weave his magic and Kocsis do what he does best


RT/PEYROTEO TACTICS

- Pelé drops a bit to create, while Gullit, Augusto and Cristiano try to explore the back of the opposing defense
- Carlos overlaps Cristiano, Vieira protects that left side
- Augusto would try to replicate what he did at Benfica first with José Águas and later with Eusébio. He can attract defenders with his dribbling ability and play it in space to the runs of Pelé, Cristiano, Gullit or the overlapping Carlos. His crossing ability will be a nightmare to opponents since he can put quality balls in the box with both feet and there would be Cristiano, Pelé and Gullit waiting to score
- Vieira and Keane would win plenty of balls in midfield and with the quality and athleticism upfront we would create a lot of quality counterattacks

A few points we'd like to point out about our team:
- Physicality - This team isn't going to get bullied by anyone, the spine of the team is tall, agressive and very strong.
- Set pieces - Most of these players scored often enough from set pieces. Our entire backline would be tough to stop by themselves, but we also have 6 ft 4 Patrick Vieira, 6 ft 3 Ruud Gullit, Pelé, Roy Keane and Cristiano Ronaldo as threats. The importance of set pieces should not be underestimated.
- Balance in midfield - It's agressive, combative and very physical whilst having the magic and creativity to support the attack. It can transform into whatever the game asks, can play sitting back without the ball breaking away with fast counters or controlling the match with the ball and suffocating opponents
- Personality - It's a team full of leaders and winners
- CBs that complement each other
 
Was looking into John Charles, was always aware of him but looking at his career in more detail now, what a fantastic player.
 
I assumed Giggs would play as well.

Edit - I also thought Koeman would play, looks nice and complimentary next to Charles and Bergomi.
 
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Two fantastic team with no obvious weakness. This will come down to personal preference imo.

Given he's facing CR and Pele, I can see why Joga went with a back 5. Don't really like the 2 sweeper backlines and personally think it's sub-optimal to one or both of them. But then this has been hashed out before in depth. But overall I think his team is placed well to deal with the stellar opposition. Also I feel the team lack a bit of creative genius in the middle.

As to RT/Pey, astounding they managed to grab both Pele and CR. Not a fan of Charles as a CB. I think his personal best was up front. Bergomi is perfect to deal with Baggio and you can't ask for a better foil than Keane/Vieira to deal with Matthaus/Neeskens.

Carlos > CR > Pele is just way too good to be kept out the whole game. I expect them to nick a goal or two here.
For Joga, Neeskens drifting wide will be perfect to catch opponent on a quick counter and with this many playmakers behind him, good chance to score too.

I'm thinking RT/Pey 2 - 1 Joga.

antohan said:
@RedTiger @Peyroteo why not Giggs left and CR7 right? I don't get it. They would work better with their respective fullbacks as well.
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Good call. Forgot they had Giggs. Yeah, that would have been better.
 
Giggs should be playing. Joga has set up very defensively didn't expect that.
 
Right now swaying Joga but Giggs would make me rethink
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Don't really like the 2 sweeper backlines and personally think it's sub-optimal to one or both of them
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I agree if we're talking about full-blown libero types but I don't see much issue in the case of Baresi and Figueroa. Bringing the ball out of defence seemed to be a relatively less important part of Figueroa's game compared to Baresi's, and he has the physicality of a traditional stopper as well.
 
Never was a fan of Charles as a center back at the highest level, even though he is a good fit for Kocsis here.

The midfield battle is going to be brutal, and while quality-wise there's hardly any difference, I see Joga's trio functioning tad better (not a fan of pairing Keane with Vieira). No one's going to have a decisive advantage there though.
 
harms said:
Never was a fan of Charles as a center back at the highest level, even though he is a good fit for Kocsis here.

The midfield battle is going to be brutal, and while quality-wise there's hardly any difference, I see Joga's trio functioning tad better (not a fan of pairing Keane with Vieira). No one's going to have a decisive advantage there though.
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Was going to post the same thing. What did he achieve as a centre back to be put in the same level as the very best in history.
 
Rationale behind the back 5 being that, firstly I can see the likes of Matthäus, Brehme, Baggio and Neeskens thrive in it, with the added responsibility and freedom. Not that they can't thrive in a more conventional back 4 set-up but it had always been my intention to go with a back 5 and get Matthäus unleashed in a back 5 similar to Germany 1990 and Inter.

Secondly, the opposition features Pele, Gullit (two forwards with impeccable credentials in the box) and of course CR7 and Jose Augusto, two wing forwards who loved cutting in. Not that a back 5 is a must in defending against such an attack but fortifying the back, esp the channels, was on my mind. That being said, I do believe Giggs for Augusto brings more balance in RedTiger's side but it does entail Ronaldo moving onto the right flank and I'm unsure as to whether the Real version would be fully at ease there whilst, Giggs would have to square up against C.Alberto here, with none other than the impeccable Figueroa in the box to clear any dangerous crosses.

I do acknowledge that there is a lot of onus on the likes of Matthäus, Baggio, Kocsis, esp the latter duo in particular but they can be relied on to make the difference with the freedom and service afforded to them. Kocsis is a top tier center forward who averaged more than a goal a game at his peak and is proven on several levels (arguably the best player of the 1954 WC, 16 goals in 24 games in the European Cup and of course several golden boots to boot).

Likewise Baggio was a great goalscoring fantastista with brilliant and unpredictable movement off the ball in the final third. He is the 7th highest goalscorer of all time in arguably the most defensively demanding league of all time and was a clutch goalscorer - 6 goals in WC knockout games and in the 452 Serie A matches he played, he scored 205 goals and 118 assists which is frankly ridiculous for a Second Striker/Playmaker. Of the 205 goals 96 were decisive, meaning that they were either equalisers or match winners.

Matthäus averaged a near one in two record for Bayern (69 goals in 153 games) and to a lesser extent for Inter in the Serie A (finishing second in the Capocannoniere with 16 goals) whilst being the driving force behind both Inter and Germany triumphs in the Serie A and the WC (scoring 4 goals in the process). Likewise, Neeskens given a free role here can definitely be relied on to be a force in the opposition's half - being the heart of the Ajax and Dutch sides with his lung-bursting forays forward being a potent arsenal in complementing Cruyff's playmaking and tendency to drop deep.

(Have interlinked videos for those interested)

So whilst I do believe it's a defensively solid side, there is more than enough attacking impetus and goalscoring threat flowing throughout the team (Brehme-C.Alberto shouldn't go under the radar here too, with their sheer creativity and multi-faceted game-play on the flanks).
 
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How do you score against Joga? Team? By having Pelé and Cristiano Ronaldo, that's how

But man, this is tough
 
We prefered Costacurta to Koeman. Koeman is better on the ball but the italian is a better defender. John Charles was already great with the ball in his feet so we don't really need another CB that can play it from defense. Especially since we should have no problem playing long balls given the height of our team.

Both Giggs and Cristiano play better on the left and with Roberto Carlos overlapping Cristiano is perfect there cutting inside. Cristiano has never been as good playing on the right and we feel we need to play him at his best. I feel like José Augusto is getting underrated here, so I'll talk a bit more about him.

He played 11 years for Benfica, won 8 league titles, 3 cups and 2 European Cups. Scored 174 goals in 369 games for Benfica (their 8th greatest scorer of all time) and 51 in 101 for Barreirense. He was called the 'portuguese Garrincha', because he was a fantastic dribbler. At his best in 1960/61 he scored 31 goals in 35 games and scored in 5 of the 9 games Benfica played in the European Cup. There was no Eusébio then. José Augusto along with the clinical striker José Águas were the the stars of that attack, they won 7 of the 9 games and dominated Europe that season. He would go to 4 more European Cup finals after that, only winning one of them. He was one of the stars of the WC 1966 portuguese team. Portugal hasn't done better than that since.

As for his style of play, besides being a fantastic dribbler and crosser he was elite at heading the ball.

“That [putting fear into opponents] was the idea of an elite player that has in technique his biggest weapon - I was quick, versatile and I especially had a lot of intelligence” - José Augusto




1:05


0:56 and 2:33
(bullshit pen ofcourse :lol:)


European Cup semi in 1962. He's the number 7, scored the second and third Benfica goals

I know I'm in a Manchester United forum but I'd much prefer CR7 on the left and José Augusto on the right than Giggs on the left and Ronaldo on the right.
 
Joga defence is really GOATish one and very hard to break down. The keeper tho is a bit of liability.

In those setups RT/P attack looks more likely to score although facing great defence.

I take it it's Giggs now on the left and C.Ron on the right?
 
I'm convinced this way it would work out better but given the response here maybe we should change it. Can we still change it btw?
 
Joga Bonito said:
Likewise Baggio was a great goalscoring fantastista with brilliant and unpredictable movement off the ball in the final third
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It looks like a great set up for Baggio. He's the principal creator, he's got freedom to roam and he's got a top quality centre forward ahead of him. He's got previous against Costacurta too, and Charles doesn't seem to be a particularly good fit against him either (although Bergomi does, and Charles will be very useful in the air vs Kocsis). Edging towards Joga here, although the sheer power in RT/Peyroteo's team is stopping me from pulling the trigger for now.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Was going to post the same thing. What did he achieve as a centre back to be put in the same level as the very best in history.
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Hard to assess. He was often moved back to protect a lead, etc. But he clearly isn't a top level CB in an all-time setting as such. I don't consider him a top level striker either, for that matter. He's a special case and a great player, but his greatness rests on his versatility - and unless you actually use that versatility as part of your game plan, he's «just» a very good player you could replace with many CBs out there.

Should come in handy against the aerial threat of Kocsis, though
 
Moby said:
Slight difficult to imagine him being at home in these tactics at the first glance.
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yeah, but it still offers much flexibility for a free roaming role. He's not fixed to a defensive position and can drift out wide and interchange with both Matthaus and Schweini without compromising the integrity of the defence. Total midfield to say. I really like Neeskens moving up in a wide'ish role with Carlos Alberto behind him.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Hard to assess. He was often moved back to protect a lead, etc. But he clearly isn't a top level CB in an all-time setting as such
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Yeah, that's the point. He is quite unique in this role, and it's a great asset to have a forward who, after scoring an obligatory goal, can drop back to help you secure the victory, but it does not mean that he can start as a center back in an all-time draft!

Pretty sure that he won/got to the final of one of the earlier all-time or something similar drafts in his CB incarnation :lol:
 
Cheers for the feedback, also something that I'd like to clarify about Kocsis. He was an immense header of the ball and was aptly coined the Golden Head but he wasn't exactly a target man ala Vieri/Shearer but rather a fairly complete forward with modern-day centre forward traits. Think Gio and Theon both experienced problems in regards to this in their last draft when he was flanked by Blokhin and Stoichkov

Imo, neither Hungary nor Barcelona were anywhere near crossing sides or played 'wide'. Only Czibor was a tricky wing player who loved playing crosses but he was a free roaming type and could frequently be found in the channels or even on the right flank (had a one-in-two goalscoring record), likewise Budai on the other flank was more of a forward. Hungary had a lot of central inter-changing going on and the likes Czibor and Budai were only expected to stretch play as opposed to being instructed to frequently cross from out wide - the likes of Puskas, Bozsik etc drifted wide at times to play some lovely curling crosses though.


Likewise for Barca, only Czibor was the only 'wide' player with the play being extremely central with the likes of Evaristo (sort of like Aguero), Suarez and Kubala. Kubala played as the outside right but was more like Kopa on the right and frequently cut in. Likewise Czibor was hardly a disciplined left winger like Giggs and frequently cut inside or was found on the right flank (check out his goal against Benfica in the European Cup final where he cuts in from the right and scores a great goal). Kocsis had to frequently function as the link-man in these centrally heavy set-ups and had to frequently play alongside extremely forward oriented players.

His link-up play was excellent as too was his hold-up play, and he is the kind of a striker who needs service, but could go an entire game without a cross and still score goals. Doesn't change the fact that he was bloody brilliant in the air and of course it's better if you have a good crosser in your side to take advantage of that (Czibor or Brehme here for that matter) but it most certainly is not a necessity like say with Vieri or a Shearer. Kocsis was brilliant in the air but also quite the player and finisher on the deck with predatory movement off the ball. Of course it's definitely nice to have a great header against Kocsis in the box (Charles) but Kocsis is more than wily enough than to go on a straight up duel with Charles (a fair few of his headed goals arose from his movement and he wasn't a battering ram of a forward per se, though he had a salmon like leap and excellent physical attributes) and would be a real nuisance to Charles-costacurta with his all round goalscoring arsenal in the box.
 
I personally think Cristiano is perfect here at left side. Giving Carlos room to romp forward and freeing Pele to drop deeper by cutting in to occupy central spot, Its a brilliant attack really.
 
harms said:
Yeah, that's the point. He is quite unique in this role, and it's a great asset to have a forward who, after scoring an obligatory goal, can drop back to help you secure the victory, but it does not mean that he can start as a center back in an all-time draft!

Pretty sure that he won/got to the final of one of the earlier all-time or something similar drafts in his CB incarnation :lol:
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Baresi-Charles-Eyzaguirre

Runner-up
 
Peyroteo said:
We prefered Costacurta to Koeman. Koeman is better on the ball but the italian is a better defender. John Charles was already great with the ball in his feet so we don't really need another CB that can play it from defense. Especially since we should have no problem playing long balls given the height of our team.

Both Giggs and Cristiano play better on the left and with Roberto Carlos overlapping Cristiano is perfect there cutting inside. Cristiano has never been as good playing on the right and we feel we need to play him at his best. I feel like José Augusto is getting underrated here, so I'll talk a bit more about him.

He played 11 years for Benfica, won 8 league titles, 3 cups and 2 European Cups. Scored 174 goals in 369 games for Benfica (their 8th greatest scorer of all time) and 51 in 101 for Barreirense. He was called the 'portuguese Garrincha', because he was a fantastic dribbler. At his best in 1960/61 he scored 31 goals in 35 games and scored in 5 of the 9 games Benfica played in the European Cup. There was no Eusébio then. José Augusto along with the clinical striker José Águas were the the stars of that attack, they won 7 of the 9 games and dominated Europe that season. He would go to 4 more European Cup finals after that, only winning one of them. He was one of the stars of the WC 1966 portuguese team. Portugal hasn't done better than that since.

As for his style of play, besides being a fantastic dribbler and crosser he was elite at heading the ball.

“That [putting fear into opponents] was the idea of an elite player that has in technique his biggest weapon - I was quick, versatile and I especially had a lot of intelligence” - José Augusto




1:05


0:56 and 2:33
(bullshit pen ofcourse :lol:)


European Cup semi in 1962. He's the number 7, scored the second and third Benfica goals

I know I'm in a Manchester United forum but I'd much prefer CR7 on the left and José Augusto on the right than Giggs on the left and Ronaldo on the right.
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Thanks for this post. I didn't know about Augusto much myself but the points you make are very sound to me regarding tactical balance. Based on your description, Im inclined to agree this was the best fit tactically.

Also agree with @Moby, a bit confused with Neeskens in this catenaccio tactic, hard to see Neeskens playing at his best in this tactic.
 
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