Television Black Mirror | Season 6 out June 15th

I think that was kind of the point. Stressing how we don't really know anything, yet we make up our minds anyway. She said she was "under his spell" but the mug shots & news reporting painted her as calculating, and the flashbacks didn't show us enough, so we weren't given anything but the basic facts and had to decide black or white, like the tabloids, and the audience, who'd obviously fallen on the judgemental side.

I don't agree at all that it could've been cut in half and retained the same punch. You would've lost either the half the sympathy for her, half the impact of her being a Hindley/Carr type or half the things that were included in the charade, which were all very neatly and purposefully put on screen for a reason (the taser, why she wasn't allowed to see the phones, the projectile throwing, why she was taken to the woods, why she met someone who betrayed her trust, why she seemed slightly clairvoyant at times etc)

As it is it was the bare minimum of an "experience" they could've gone with for a days worth of "torture" and the more you show of the actual park comparatively, the more it becomes a show about that, or two shows, and less a story about this woman's ordeal in it.

Probably could've done without the silly rabbit woman and her meat carver though, but that's about it. I'm watching it back now, I've decided it's brilliant. I'm not sure I've had my opinion turned around by a twist quite so thoroughly for a long time, if ever.
 
Mockney said:
I was all but ready to call that the worst one of the whole run at the half way point, but the twist saved it and then some. Brilliantly wicked idea.
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Came in to post pretty much this. Except I didn't see the twist coming, then again I tend to be oblivious to these things.

I thought until this twist the acting was shoddy and the storyline was shit. Oh look, we've all turned into this generation where we record everything no matter how gruesome and take pleasure in watching it. We get it, you're a technophobe.

Then it all turned quite brilliantly. Cold ending with the torture, too. But if you're going to say 'look how wrong torture is', don't let the audience build up empathy for this character first, that's bollocks.

One thing I wanted clearing up was the white bear place. We're we to assume this was a court mandated punishment, or was it a case of letting us come up with our own ideas?
 
I don't think we we're meant to empathise with the alleged child killer nor does it matter whether she was a child killer, rapist, fraudster or what not. The point was how us as a society responds to this type of stuff, most of the time it's media led but the public gets what it craves for... which is righteous indignation, a real life drama/voyeurism and someone to hang. The tabloids love these types of stories... the likes of the Express and Mail are perhaps the worst for it. But yeah it was brilliant, there was also a nod to the witch trials, especially when the crowd were baying for blood...as they stood behind the presenter(?) and hooting Big Brother style. We had the burning lanterns, I suspect the pitchforks were just out of shot.
 
Spoony Kobayashi said:
Ithere was also a nod to the witch trials, especially when the crowd were baying for blood...as they stood behind the presenter(?) and hooting Big Brother style. We had the burning lanterns, I suspect the pitchforks were just out of shot.
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And the Pope-mobile as a modern stocks, complete with rotten tomatoes.

Liam147 said:
But if you're going to say 'look how wrong torture is', don't let the audience build up empathy for this character first, that's bollocks.
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How else do you do it? The whole point was we don't know nor care what these people are like. We make up our minds on our perceptions of what they're like and then demand retribution. Just look in the Pistorious thread. If we'd been given no reason to empathise, we wouldn't have felt as uncomfortable about the morality of Daily Mail Park. And the Daily Mailers would've just thought "yeah, exactly, she deserved it, we should definitely do this!"

It was also the best way to tell the story. There was far more too it than a simple "torture is wrong" parable.
 
Mockney said:
How else do you do it? The whole point was we don't know nor care what these people are like. We make up our minds on our perceptions of what they're like and then demand retribution. Just look in the Pistorious thread. If we'd been given no reason to empathise, we wouldn't have felt as uncomfortable about the morality of Daily Mail Park. And the Daily Mailers would've just thought "yeah, exactly, she deserved it, we should definitely do this!"

It was also the best way to tell the story. There was far more too it than a simple "torture is wrong" parable.
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I'm not sure you do to be honest, but that's just me.

It's all well and good saying "We don't know what they were like until they tortured that child", but do we really need to? Quite possibly the most heinous of crimes, and we're supposed to suspend judgement because we don't know "what they were like"? No one gets let off a murder charge because they're actually a really nice guy. The punishment is designed for the crime.

Hey, we all watched this programme and now we're addressing societal issues, well done Brooker.
 
It mainly seemed to be a comment on people's need to expose a murderer, or whatever other serious criminal, to the suffering their victims felt and simply poses the question of whether this is simply us stooping to a lower moral level or whether it is just.
 
Just watched it, 10 minutes of brilliance that totally changed what looked like an, equally poor, hostel remake.
 
Great television but the nods to Hindley & Brady undermined the whole thing, I think (though I'm aware that allusions to such high-profile criminals and crimes were needed as a reference point...so I'm kinda arguing against my own opinion, I guess).
 
Liam147 said:
It's all well and good saying "We don't know what they were like until they tortured that child", but do we really need to? Quite possibly the most heinous of crimes, and we're supposed to suspend judgement because we don't know "what they were like"? No one gets let off a murder charge because they're actually a really nice guy. The punishment is designed for the crime.
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No, we're not supposed to suspend judgement entirely, but there's a leap between that and Justicick Park. No ones getting "let off" anything. If you're saying you only didn't like it because it made you feel sympathy for her, then aren't you sort of also saying you think that kind of thing might be a good idea, it's just a shame she was portrayed as a real, terrified human being, rather than a monster, because that would've made you feel better about it?

And isn't that the entire point? (or one of)
 
It's a real shame that the people who most need to watch a programme like this are the ones least likely to see it.
 
I don't think they're speaking to him since this.....Which, tbf, should probably be considered a prequel.

 
Mockney said:
No, we're not supposed to suspend judgement entirely, but there's a leap between that and Justicick Park. No ones getting "let off" anything. If you're saying you only didn't like it because it made you feel sympathy for her, then aren't you sort of also saying you think that kind of thing might be a good idea, it's just a shame she was portrayed as a real, terrified human being, rather than a monster, because that would've made you feel better about it?

And isn't that the entire point? (or one of)
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You could actually be right on the money there.

But I think my main point was that Brooker was trying to get us to feel sympathetic towards her, which will have worked on the most part, and makes us all think "Oh look, she's actually just a poor scared girl, this kind of punishment is wrong", but it's under a false pretence, you can't get people to change their opinions on a child killer like that. My interpretation of child killers is that they are bad people, often mentally unstable, I don't think they should be tortured, but it's as if Brooker was saying "You see, now even you're questioning torture"

I've rambled and gone off track due to watching Breaking Bad at the same time, so I'll readdress this later (I did have a point, honest).
 
I thought it was a very disturbing piece of drama, brilliantly executed. You'd built up so much sympathy for the main character by the end that you shared her sense of utter disbelief when confronted by the evidence of her part in a terrible crime which she couldn't remember.

And the unanswered questions made it worse - how long was this going to go on for? For the same length of time as she held the child captive? Until she died of stress and exhaustion?

For me, the crime was terrible, the punishment made "society" almost as bad.
 
I decided to give this series a go. I've seen the last two episodes and is it just me who has been bored by them?

I didn't struggle to understand the social commentary or satire. Obviously I'm not saying I picked everything up, but certainly the main aim of the two shows. Been watching satirical shows since the '80s (God were the '80s bathing in satire) but this series is a bit meh imho.

Are there better episodes that I should be watching before concluding?
 
Dumbstar said:
I decided to give this series a go. I've seen the last two episodes and is it just me who has been bored by them?

I didn't struggle to understand the social commentary or satire. Obviously I'm not saying I picked everything up, but certainly the main aim of the two shows. Been watching satirical shows since the '80s (God were the '80s bathing in satire) but this series is a bit meh imho.

Are there better episodes that I should be watching before concluding?
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Have to agree with you, mate. I think Brooker is fantastic but he's in that goldilocks zone right now where everything he does is hailed as genius.

I thought it was alright. It didn't tug on my emotions the same way that it did for some posters.
 
Bloody incredible piece of TV. Nearly turned off halfway through (after they had just escaped from the shop) because I really don't like the hostel-type stuff where it's just about gore and evading the bad guy, and never watch those sorts of films. But I kept the faith in Brooker and stuck with it, and I was glad I did. The twist was superb, and it's an incredible piece of commentary.
 
Badunk said:
I hope he paid the makers of Bioshock some dosh for using their characters.
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I hope the makers of Bioshock paid Any Rand's estate some dosh for nicking her characters, her name and her entire premise from Atlas Shrugged.
 
That first half was like when you hit that age when you start questioning this god fella they taught you to love in school, I mean it was genuinely disturbing that Brooker would put his name to something so weak. But he well and truly nailed the landing (wait, what metaphor was I using again?).

The girl who helped her escape looked a bit like Kristen Schaal had been through an attractivematron 2000 if you squinted a bit.
 
Ivor Ballokov said:
That first half was like when you hit that age when you start questioning this god fella they taught you to love in school, I mean it was genuinely disturbing that Brooker would put his name to something so weak. But he well and truly nailed the landing (wait, what metaphor was I using again?).

The girl who helped her escape looked a bit like Kristen Schaal had been through an attractivematron 2000 if you squinted a bit.
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Yeah, seems like we all thought... 'nah this can't be a Running Man-lite, surely there's more to it'. When the stage was revealed it only compounded our fears, but the finale elevated it from being not worthy of Brooker to the best of the series, and with that one of the best dramas I've seen on TV in recent years. I can't wait for next week's.
 
Oh yeah, I remembered what my point was now.

Basically, it's okay for Brooker to say "There, now you all think torture is wrong, no matter what the circumstance, don't you?" and we all say, "Yes Mr Brooker."

If his point is to say torture is wrong, fine, but I wasn't keen on the way he was getting us to think that. Making us feel sympathetic towards a character, only to show that she was actually a child killer being tortured, to make us think it's wrong, was wrong.

I don't know how much sense that made, but I know what I mean.
 
He had to show her going through the ordeal without us knowing what she'd done so that our opinion of her wasn't coloured by the same twisted sense of justice shown by the other characters. Then after the reveal we have to decide whether the punishment fit the crime.

There are already enough people who watched it and thought "feckin' right, bitch got what she deserved" or even thought she got off lightly considering she wouldn't be able to remember the previous days' torture! Doing it any other way would have resulted in an awful lot more point missing.
 
Wasn't a fan of that one, another case of not enough time to fully develop the story or point.

Some interesting points above about last weeks, tbh I took it to demonstrate how humans can easily commit dark acts when encouraged, the whole milgrim story. History is full of how evil mankind is when given a reason, acts in the name of justice are probably the strongest.
 
Quite disappointed with tonight's episode. It was well made and acted but failed to say anything really interesting.

Maybe I'm expecting too much as the other five were so good but I thought this one was a bit of a mess.

Quite a few potentially interesting ideas were started but none of them were fully developed.
 
Yeah the dystopian future ending seemed tacked on, but I still felt it provided more of a full narrative than the first one. Suffered a bit because Waldo wasn't remotely likeable (and was actually pretty unlikeable) and the Barely episode genus influences were pretty obvious and of that era (Ali G meets Crazy Frog) but I still enjoyed it. It probably had the strongest full set of characters of the whole series bar the first one, but as a thing it seemed to stop just as it was really setting off.

I don't know where I'd rate it, but it wasn't in the top 3. The real question is whether as a series this one was as good as or an improvement on the first, and I think it probably was. Just. But then I seem to be in the minority of people who didn't like 15 Million Merits.

I think I'd probably go..

The National Anthem
White Bear
Be Right Back
The Entire History of You
The Waldo Moment/15 Million Merits
 
Yeah, was Ali G meets that fecking frog. Dunno, I enjoyed it but it was possibly his weakest... He was also perhaps a bit too heavy handed, and it just felt all over the place. Oddly enough the campaign was like a sinister version of Brewster's 'vote none of the above!'.
 
Same here, I've really enjoyed some of them but that was awful in comparison. I cringed at half the scenes with Waldo, the guy as himself was rubbish too.
 
I think "in comparison" is the choice word in that. I don't think it was objectively crap by any standards...Apart form other Black Mirrors. And the Wire. And, you know, stuff like that.

It's main problems were that Waldo wasn't likeable or interesting and thus the premise seemed too far fetched, and that we all knew exactly what was going to happen at every step. It was still perfectly cromulently done.
 
Mockney said:
I think "in comparison" is the choice word in that. I don't think it was objectively crap by any standards...Apart form other Black Mirrors. And the Wire. And, you know, stuff like that.

It's main problems were that Waldo wasn't likeable or interesting and thus the premise seemed too far fetched, and that we all knew exactly what was going to happen at every step. It was still perfectly cromulently done.
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Well, it was awful in comparison to the other episodes, but even outside of that, it was still pretty rubbish, I didn't really enjoy any of it and thought it all seemed a bit clumsy. I'd never put it up against stuff like The Wire though, any of the episodes for that matter, it just doesn't have near the same quality. I've found the series as a whole very enjoyable and fun interesting TV for the most part, but to be honest I'm not really seeing this as amazing.

I enjoyed the episode before this too (not as much as the pig one), but not really to the extent others did. I knew the twist was coming after the woods scene, and although it was done well, there was no surprise there and didn't really make up for many of the poor parts throughout the episode up until that point.

Is Season 3 to be expected?
 
I think everyone worked out that a twist was coming, it was a case of wondering how they'll tie up. If you sussed out the exact twist then I'm starting to think you're an Oracle or something. It wasn't.. Ahh but the butler did it type. For me...it was well done and thoroughly thought provoking. Hence the plaudits.
 
Spoony Kobayashi said:
I think everyone worked out that a twist was coming, it was a case of wondering how they'll tie up. If you sussed out the exact twist then I'm starting to think you're an Oracle or something. It wasn't.. Ahh but the butler did it type. For me...it was well done and thoroughly thought provoking. Hence the plaudits.
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No you're right it wasn't meant to be a shock type twist, but I did think she was a criminal/murderer (not the child mind although I knew she wasn't hers) and this was a weird revenge-styled thing in the future. Not in the same vain of the actual White Bear place at the end, which was admittedly very good because it was so casual and normal-looking, as were the people and type of peopel attending, but I figured it to be some kind of punishment course long before the twist. I didn't get the camera phones, tattoo bit and the little details relating to her crime stuff, of course not, but it was around when they mentioned White Bear I realized they were taking details from her crime and making her go through them again. I liked how they tied it up and how acceptable people seemed towards what is a terrible thing, but for me there was too much before it got to that which wasn't very good.
 
Mockney said:
I think "in comparison" is the choice word in that. I don't think it was objectively crap by any standards...Apart form other Black Mirrors. And the Wire. And, you know, stuff like that.
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I thought it was objectively crap. I was thoroughly bored throughout.
 
I think you're all being incredibly harsh on it. I still enjoyed it perfectly well. If it'd been the first one, I reckon it would've gotten a much better (though not glowing) reception. People are far too eager to throw around the crap mantle for things that aren't brilliant. Miranda is crap. Mrs Browns Boys is crap. The Outsiders starting little Dennis from Eastenders was crap. This just wasn't thrilling.

And Hectic thinks the twist in Shutter Island is brillant, so there.
 
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