Well, I still don't buy into Djalma the great attacking presence. I'd argue that both Czibor and Djalma cancel each other out both ways in terms of impact and don't think that's exaggerated.
Billy No Mates Draft: R1 - Balu/crappy vs Sjor/Viva
- Thread starter Physiocrat
- Start date
Okay, kinda have to change the tune now a bit. Enough about Messi and surely our attack deserves some attention as well?
It's a fecking magnificent strike partnership in attack, both complement each other perfectly and face strong but in an alltime context not necessary outstanding central defenders. Let's not forget what a force of nature Eusebio was and how much he'd enjoy to play off Uwe Seeler. I shamelessly steal my own Eusebio write-up from the manager draft, because I think it was fantastic
:
Eusébio
In 1962, it was difficult to escape the feeling that the nascent European Cup was at a crossroads. In the previous season, Benfica had become the first team to win the trophy other than Real Madrid. But, now that the Spanish champions were back in the final after no more than a one-year absence, they had the opportunity to prove that was simply an aberration and that the trophy was their rightful property.
Certainly, that was the way it looked in the first half. With Alfredo Di Stefano dominating and Ferenc Puskas finishing, Real roared into a 2-0 and then 3-2 lead.
But it was at that point Eusebio stepped up to show that there had been a continental shift. First he created the space for Mario Coluna’s equaliser. Then, playing in his first European Cup final, the striker picked the ball up in his own half and rampaged into the Real box. There was no other option but to bring him down. And there was no other outcome than Eusebio finishing the penalty. Three minutes later, then, came the coup de grace. Illustrating his renowned shooting ability, Eusebio lashed a free-kick home.
And, in a metaphorical passing of the torch after the game, Di Stefano passed his shirt to the young Portuguese. By winning a second successive trophy, Benfica had definitively taken Real Madrid’s mantle. And that Eusebio had definitively taken Di Stefano’s. Ferenc Puskas, meanwhile, became the only player to score a hat-trick in the final and lose.
Again thanks to football pantheon for this description of one of the greatest moments in the history of the game.
It's a fecking magnificent strike partnership in attack, both complement each other perfectly and face strong but in an alltime context not necessary outstanding central defenders. Let's not forget what a force of nature Eusebio was and how much he'd enjoy to play off Uwe Seeler. I shamelessly steal my own Eusebio write-up from the manager draft, because I think it was fantastic
:Eusébio
In 1962, it was difficult to escape the feeling that the nascent European Cup was at a crossroads. In the previous season, Benfica had become the first team to win the trophy other than Real Madrid. But, now that the Spanish champions were back in the final after no more than a one-year absence, they had the opportunity to prove that was simply an aberration and that the trophy was their rightful property.
Certainly, that was the way it looked in the first half. With Alfredo Di Stefano dominating and Ferenc Puskas finishing, Real roared into a 2-0 and then 3-2 lead.
But it was at that point Eusebio stepped up to show that there had been a continental shift. First he created the space for Mario Coluna’s equaliser. Then, playing in his first European Cup final, the striker picked the ball up in his own half and rampaged into the Real box. There was no other option but to bring him down. And there was no other outcome than Eusebio finishing the penalty. Three minutes later, then, came the coup de grace. Illustrating his renowned shooting ability, Eusebio lashed a free-kick home.
And, in a metaphorical passing of the torch after the game, Di Stefano passed his shirt to the young Portuguese. By winning a second successive trophy, Benfica had definitively taken Real Madrid’s mantle. And that Eusebio had definitively taken Di Stefano’s. Ferenc Puskas, meanwhile, became the only player to score a hat-trick in the final and lose.
Again thanks to football pantheon for this description of one of the greatest moments in the history of the game.
If so, than it does mean Lizarazu will face Messi all by himself.
Yeah, if you want Messi to hug the touchline, that's certainly true. It's of course not the slightest bit true if you want Messi to play in a free role as the main playmaker, who cuts inside a lot. That's all from me now about Messi though, I really think everything about him and his role has been said and we go in circles. The voters need to make up their own mind.
Messi gets the ball in very wide areas sometimes, and uses his quickness to to beat his markers and cuts inside. He doesn't need to "hug the touchline" in order to create width, we don't need to exaggerate so much, the fact that Czibor will supposedly cancel Djalma going forward doesn't mean the player won't be there and the defence won't be stretched at all, and Messi can play as the free role main playmaker at inside right and also create width from time to time, it's not something that is not being done as it is and you're making it sound like he can either be a complete winger and create width or he can be a free role inside forward and than he will create no width whatsoever without an attacking RB and it's not true in football.
I didn't exaggerate anything. I just said that Liza won't be left alone to deal with Messi when he cuts inside. That's it. I think that makes a lot of sense. I never commented on how often he'd cut inside or something like that. And that's really the last time I comment on Messi. There are much more interesting players on the pitch who deserve attention.
I consider Balu's arguments and general rhetoric in this thread to be on a different level to anyone arguing against him. No contest, actually.
But I still reckon he'll lose this one by a goal.
But I still reckon he'll lose this one by a goal.
I think that's fair. He's doing a great job here but I truly believe we have the better team.
Hah! You don't, actually - but you've got the ace up your sleeve in an otherwise very close affair.
Changed my vote from 1 goal to 2 goal lead because of that. Not that it helps
Probably quite similar - Sivori and Elkjaer are no mugs either.
Neymar is a much better tactical fit than Sivori, imo
To some extent yes as Neymar provides more natural width. But they're both individualists who largely have got by on their sheer quality and it's the presence of the free-roaming and physical Elkjaer and Saurez who really make the respective front lines work.
Changed my vote from 1 goal to 2 goal lead because of that. Not that it helps
It does. We are tied on votes and losing on GD
I feel @Skizzo 's pain now regarding rando +3 goal votes.It does. We are tied on votes and losing on GD
It's a gut punch, I'm tellin' ya!
Come on folks. More votes in this one.
Give the panther his due
Don't forget Scirea is the by far best defender on the pitch.
Give the panther his due
Don't forget Scirea is the by far best defender on the pitch.
You can lose on GD because we have a 3 goal vote? I don't think it makes much sense. If the goals are tied its supposed to be penaltiesIt does. We are tied on votes and losing on GD
Nah GD comes into effect if the votes are tied.
and they say he cant play tiki taka......
Couple of points.
- Can see Beckham working pretty well in this set-up myself. Don't quite think he is the type who needs a overlapping full-back to function and whilst Neville did help create space for him with his overlapping runs, United's high tempo passing and quick transitions etc were more key to him enjoying the space he had, to deliver his great crosses etc. The only thing he lacked was pace and directness but I can see his cultured approach on the ball meshing well with the directness of all his fellow midfielders and forwards.
- For all the talk of Messi vs Lizarazu, not much has been made about Eusebio vs Makelele for me, esp with Seeler playing a fantastic supporting role, although he was a fantastic individual in his own right. Now Makelele is a bit of a strange topic really. He was a mighty fine player and one of the best, if not the best DM, of his generation. However, I wouldn't exactly call him a great, nor rate him amongst the likes of Desailly/Rijkaard etc. Reckon Eusebio-Seeler would have a good game with the support that they have from that great midfield duo and of course the service they would get from Beckham-Czibor.
-Do think it's a valid point that sjor/viva's team could have had more adventurous FBs to complement Messi and Sivori better, although Schnellinger and Djalma Santos were pretty damn classy on the ball and were really good passers. Also, I remember discussing this in one of the older drafts, that whilst Djalma Santos played as a reserved RB for Brazil, which made perfect sense with Garrincha ahead of him, he was supposedly a more attacking full-back for his club sides. More research is needed to shed light on this matter.
-That front trio of sjor/viva's pretty tasty as well and I consider both Elkjaer and Sivori to be significant upgrades over Neymar and Suarez. Esp Elkjaer who was Suarez on steroids for me and Sivori who had all the directness of Neymar with the added touch of class as well.
-Charlton has a great set-up to work in and with the steel provided by Keane and Makelele behind him, that midfield has great balance between graft, spunk and quality. Also Keane might not be able to play fancy tiki-taka stuff but he was one of the best in the business at providing those quick passes between the lines to forwards, which that forward trio would absolutely lap up.
Ultimately though, it was the Eusebio-Seeler duo and the tactical set-up of Balu/crappy which tipped this for me. Messi would probably have a good game here but I can see Burgnich and a Scirea marshalled defense doing well against Sivori and Elkjaer. Also the presence of an attacking LWB might have perhaps made me reconsider my vote. As it stands Beckham would have more freedom to tuck in and help the midfield battle off the ball, which would have been harder if he had a marauding LWB to deal with. Schnellinger was more of a classy LB who was more likely to tuck in and rarely if ever went on the overlap. That midfield duo of Balu has a heck of a task on their hands but if anyone could do it, it's those two complete buggers, with the supplementary aid of Beckham of course.
Really tough to vote against some of my favourites like D.Santos/Keane/Charlton/Elkjaer though
- Can see Beckham working pretty well in this set-up myself. Don't quite think he is the type who needs a overlapping full-back to function and whilst Neville did help create space for him with his overlapping runs, United's high tempo passing and quick transitions etc were more key to him enjoying the space he had, to deliver his great crosses etc. The only thing he lacked was pace and directness but I can see his cultured approach on the ball meshing well with the directness of all his fellow midfielders and forwards.
- For all the talk of Messi vs Lizarazu, not much has been made about Eusebio vs Makelele for me, esp with Seeler playing a fantastic supporting role, although he was a fantastic individual in his own right. Now Makelele is a bit of a strange topic really. He was a mighty fine player and one of the best, if not the best DM, of his generation. However, I wouldn't exactly call him a great, nor rate him amongst the likes of Desailly/Rijkaard etc. Reckon Eusebio-Seeler would have a good game with the support that they have from that great midfield duo and of course the service they would get from Beckham-Czibor.
-Do think it's a valid point that sjor/viva's team could have had more adventurous FBs to complement Messi and Sivori better, although Schnellinger and Djalma Santos were pretty damn classy on the ball and were really good passers. Also, I remember discussing this in one of the older drafts, that whilst Djalma Santos played as a reserved RB for Brazil, which made perfect sense with Garrincha ahead of him, he was supposedly a more attacking full-back for his club sides. More research is needed to shed light on this matter.
-That front trio of sjor/viva's pretty tasty as well and I consider both Elkjaer and Sivori to be significant upgrades over Neymar and Suarez. Esp Elkjaer who was Suarez on steroids for me and Sivori who had all the directness of Neymar with the added touch of class as well.
-Charlton has a great set-up to work in and with the steel provided by Keane and Makelele behind him, that midfield has great balance between graft, spunk and quality. Also Keane might not be able to play fancy tiki-taka stuff but he was one of the best in the business at providing those quick passes between the lines to forwards, which that forward trio would absolutely lap up.
Ultimately though, it was the Eusebio-Seeler duo and the tactical set-up of Balu/crappy which tipped this for me. Messi would probably have a good game here but I can see Burgnich and a Scirea marshalled defense doing well against Sivori and Elkjaer. Also the presence of an attacking LWB might have perhaps made me reconsider my vote. As it stands Beckham would have more freedom to tuck in and help the midfield battle off the ball, which would have been harder if he had a marauding LWB to deal with. Schnellinger was more of a classy LB who was more likely to tuck in and rarely if ever went on the overlap. That midfield duo of Balu has a heck of a task on their hands but if anyone could do it, it's those two complete buggers, with the supplementary aid of Beckham of course.
Really tough to vote against some of my favourites like D.Santos/Keane/Charlton/Elkjaer though
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last final push even though the game is pretty much over.....
where will the goals come from for Balu and crappy? Balu himself said that Djalma and Czibor will cancel each other out.
Beckham with Burgnich behind him and against Schnellinger wont do much. Schnellinger can afford to be very tight on him the whole game as he doesnt have to worry about 2v1 as neither Burgnich or Edwards will help with overlapping. At least for the sake of Balu team i hope Edwards wont help as i see him watching on Charlton in the holding role. If he doesnt, Bobby would have a field day and even if he stays and covers him for the entire game i can still see Charlton win that duel.
So service from the wings will be very limited, my team will sit deep, we have a numerical advantage in midfield and a DM who was born for this kind of situations. Are Masopust, Eusebio and Seeler really going to get much against Makelele, Keane, Hansen and Schwarzenbeck?
where will the goals come from for Balu and crappy? Balu himself said that Djalma and Czibor will cancel each other out.
Beckham with Burgnich behind him and against Schnellinger wont do much. Schnellinger can afford to be very tight on him the whole game as he doesnt have to worry about 2v1 as neither Burgnich or Edwards will help with overlapping. At least for the sake of Balu team i hope Edwards wont help as i see him watching on Charlton in the holding role. If he doesnt, Bobby would have a field day and even if he stays and covers him for the entire game i can still see Charlton win that duel.
So service from the wings will be very limited, my team will sit deep, we have a numerical advantage in midfield and a DM who was born for this kind of situations. Are Masopust, Eusebio and Seeler really going to get much against Makelele, Keane, Hansen and Schwarzenbeck?
Either you or Viva did that before and now again, you confused the sides our players are on in midfield. Edwards is on Keane's side, Masopust + Beckham on Charlton's. No wonder that you don't understand my tactics and your players fail to execute the gameplan
.That proved to be the comeback goal I guess.Couple of points.
- Can see Beckham working pretty well in this set-up myself. Don't quite think he is the type who needs a overlapping full-back to function and whilst Neville did help create space for him with his overlapping runs, United's high tempo passing and quick transitions etc were more key to him enjoying the space he had, to deliver his great crosses etc. The only thing he lacked was pace and directness but I can see his cultured approach on the ball meshing well with the directness of all his fellow midfielders and forwards.
- For all the talk of Messi vs Lizarazu, not much has been made about Eusebio vs Makelele for me, esp with Seeler playing a fantastic supporting role, although he was a fantastic individual in his own right. Now Makelele is a bit of a strange topic really. He was a mighty fine player and one of the best, if not the best DM, of his generation. However, I wouldn't exactly call him a great, nor rate him amongst the likes of Desailly/Rijkaard etc. Reckon Eusebio-Seeler would have a good game with the support that they have from that great midfield duo and of course the service they would get from Beckham-Czibor.
-Do think it's a valid point that sjor/viva's team could have had more adventurous FBs to complement Messi and Sivori better, although Schnellinger and Djalma Santos were pretty damn classy on the ball and were really good passers. Also, I remember discussing this in one of the older drafts, that whilst Djalma Santos played as a reserved RB for Brazil, which made perfect sense with Garrincha ahead of him, he was supposedly a more attacking full-back for his club sides. More research is needed to shed light on this matter.
-That front trio of sjor/viva's pretty tasty as well and I consider both Elkjaer and Sivori to be significant upgrades over Neymar and Suarez. Esp Elkjaer who was Suarez on steroids for me and Sivori who had all the directness of Neymar with the added touch of class as well.
-Charlton has a great set-up to work in and with the steel provided by Keane and Makelele behind him, that midfield has great balance between graft, spunk and quality. Also Keane might not be able to play fancy tiki-taka stuff but he was one of the best in the business at providing those quick passes between the lines to forwards, which that forward trio would absolutely lap up.
Ultimately though, it was the Eusebio-Seeler duo and the tactical set-up of Balu/crappy which tipped this for me. Messi would probably have a good game here but I can see Burgnich and a Scirea marshalled defense doing well against Sivori and Elkjaer. Also the presence of an attacking LWB might have perhaps made me reconsider my vote. As it stands Beckham would have more freedom to tuck in and help the midfield battle off the ball, which would have been harder if he had a marauding LWB to deal with. Schnellinger was more of a classy LB who was more likely to tuck in and rarely if ever went on the overlap. That midfield duo of Balu has a heck of a task on their hands but if anyone could do it, it's those two complete buggers, with the supplementary aid of Beckham of course.
Really tough to vote against some of my favourites like D.Santos/Keane/Charlton/Elkjaer though
I don't have much to say really, I think your points regarding are strengths are spot on, but I think the question in the whole Messi vs Lizarazu and Eusebio vs Makalele is who will have the better supporting cast. Yes Eusebio & Seeler are great combination I won't deny it, but you have to take into account the fact that their facing off a trio of Makalele - probably the best water carrier in the world, Schwarzenbeck - who was a stopper designed to stop especially the type of Eusebio's and make sure the ball won't even reach them, and Hansen who is probably Liverpool's best CB of all time and was good in passing his way out of trouble. Add that to Schnellinger who pushing that much forward you've got a very very solid backline against the threat of counter attacks from 2 men basically, maybe 3 if Masopust or Czibor are quick enough to join. These long balls that will be sent to them are exactly what Makalele and Schwarzenbeck excelled defending against and it plays directly to our strengths. We'll have more men behind to effectively fight that front two.
On the other hand, the minute Messi gets a foot over Lizarazu with his quick breaks to the middle, there's so many options! He can find a pass to Sivori in his classic to Neymar/Alba style of pass, he can pass it between the Costacurta(who needs to come out to him) and Scirea(who has Charlton roaming as well) for the relentless movement of Elkjaer, he can pass it back for one of those deadly long shots from Charlton who is bound to find space, or he can even take his shot or try to beat Costacurta as well!
And the biggest difference between our teams is not just how much more Messi is built to cause more damage here than Eusebio against the defenders their facing and setups they have, it's that we have more goal threat than "Messi" where they are very reliant on Eusebio magic on the counter. When Messi is being doubled with Masopust or Edwards or Costacurta, it's Charlton who will find these spaces and Sir Bobby is one of the best United players in history, and these deadly shots he had are bound to find the net at some point with so many players going Messi's way and our forward's movement.
Admittedly I was confused and I saw the talks of Edwards being on Messi's side and didn't understand how is it possible when on the lineup sheet he's on the LCM, but double checked and I was mistaken.Either you or Viva did that before and now again, you confused the sides our players are on in midfield. Edwards is on Keane's side, Masopust + Beckham on Charlton's. No wonder that you don't understand my tactics and your players fail to execute the gameplan
I actually prefer it that way, because I fancy that when Edwards helps with Messi, Sir Bobby Charlton will find much more space to do these:
Some people helped the argument but didn't vote eventually. last chance? @Aldo @Enigma_87 @Marty1968
No mate, I voted yesterday about 10 hours of so, when Balu was behind iirc. Just wanted to provide the reasons for my vote.
Oh. Fair enough. It would've been equally fair if it was the last vote
Luis Enrique on the bench for us doesn't know what else he can do, moves on to shouting at the referee
3 minutes left and its still wide open...squeaky arse time as Fergie would say
Either you or Viva did that before and now again, you confused the sides our players are on in midfield. Edwards is on Keane's side, Masopust + Beckham on Charlton's. No wonder that you don't understand my tactics and your players fail to execute the gameplan
ups
i was sure that it was the other way around.....but even better in my opinion as i can Charlton having an easier game against Masopust then he would have against Edwards but thats not important, the original point still stands even though i mixed the players.
hail marry tactic - fat bastards, stick together and vote for your guy
I remain of the opinion that Masopust at his best was truely similar to Beckenbauer's box to box role in '66. I think Charlton and Masopust could cancel each other out in the same way, especially with Beckham free to tuck in with no attacking fullback to worry about and Makelele offering more or less nothing going forward.ups
@Balu @crappycraperson
congrats on your win guys, it was never in doubt #firstroundspecialist
dont think i ever posted so much in a match thread, i blame viva for that
congrats on your win guys, it was never in doubt #firstroundspecialist
dont think i ever posted so much in a match thread, i blame viva for that
Wow, didn't expect to win it after @Chesterlestreet 's comment yesterday .
Thanks @crappycraperson for being a fantastic co-manager. Great game @VivaJanuzaj and especially @Šjor Bepo for triggering my little Lizarazu is fecking awesome rant. I liked that.
.Thanks @crappycraperson for being a fantastic co-manager. Great game @VivaJanuzaj and especially @Šjor Bepo for triggering my little Lizarazu is fecking awesome rant
. I liked that.ah, just saw the alert, I thought it has some time up.
I really liked both team guys, couldn't decide between one or the other. IMO sjor/viva side had a tad more individual quality in them but balu/crappy side had a tad better set up and with their reasoning behind the set up made it really hard to put a vote last night.
for me it was pretty even game to go into extra time like the scoreline suggested.
Congrats to Balu/crappy and condolences to Sjor/Viva, really quality teams both ends.
For what it's worth, I really didn't mean to bang the Messi can only excel in the Barca set-up drum and I hope it didn't sound like that. I don't think it was me who brought the comparison to Barca forward in the first place. I've actually defended his performances for Argentina quite a bit and think they're truely underrated.
My original criticism regarding the lack of width didn't even focus on the lack of a right wingback, because I don't believe Messi necessary needs Alves behind him to excel. It was really just a general criticism that could have been easily solved by having actual width on the other side of the pitch as well. It just looked like an incredibly narrow set-up that needed at least one wingback to work, no matter what side and with Makelele shielding the defense, there certainly was room to use one.
I truely think a narrow set-up plays in the hands of well organised defenses and is difficult to execute successfully no matter the individual quality.
Anyway, deservedly close game and could have gone either way. Lucky win for us but I take it.
My original criticism regarding the lack of width didn't even focus on the lack of a right wingback, because I don't believe Messi necessary needs Alves behind him to excel. It was really just a general criticism that could have been easily solved by having actual width on the other side of the pitch as well. It just looked like an incredibly narrow set-up that needed at least one wingback to work, no matter what side and with Makelele shielding the defense, there certainly was room to use one.
I truely think a narrow set-up plays in the hands of well organised defenses and is difficult to execute successfully no matter the individual quality.
Anyway, deservedly close game and could have gone either way. Lucky win for us but I take it
.Did you win on GD?