Billy No Mates Draft: R1 - Balu/crappy vs Sjor/Viva

What will the result be?

  • Total voters
    25
  • Poll closed .
Balu's midfield is reminiscent of the Zito/Didi midfield of Brazil (4-4-2 i/o 4-2-4 irrespective). It certainly will work well, but not one I think will get the best out of Masopust. Though he was a excellent contributor to the defensive phase, what sets Masopust apart was his slalom runs joining in the attack. I had him in Euros draft and imo his club partnership with Pluskal slightly better than his NT performances. Czech mainly played a risk free game and in a mostly defensive game style that despite being excellent he was still behind his club peak.

On the other hand, I rate Charlton in that role. Did a lot of research before and before he moved centrally, he was excellent in the United side from that left midfield position. Very influential throughout the match and drifting about constantly, making runs, finding gaps etc.

Leaning towards Sjor/Viva for now.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Balu's midfield is reminiscent of the Zito/Didi midfield of Brazil (4-4-2 i/o 4-2-4 irrespective). It certainly will work well, but not one I think will get the best out of Masopust. Though he was a excellent contributor to the defensive phase, what sets Masopust apart was his slalom runs joining in the attack. I had him in Euros draft and imo his club partnership with Pluskal slightly better than his NT performances. Czech mainly played a risk free game and in a mostly defensive game style that despite being excellent he was still behind his club peak.

On the other hand, I rate Charlton in that role. Did a lot of research before and before he moved centrally, he was excellent in the United side from that left midfield position. Very influential throughout the match and drifting about constantly, making runs, finding gaps etc.

Leaning towards Sjor/Viva for now.
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Why wouldn't Masopust be able to contribue in the attacking phase? The example you listed of Didi-Zito .. well Didi played more of an attacking role than a defensive one. After Lothar, Masopust is pretty much the best B2B you can ask for. The midfield 2 is as perfect for 442 as it can be with both midfielder being complete footballers and with one being slightly titled towards more of a defensive role (Edwards).

I also don't agree with your take on Charlton in the opposition team. With Messi trying to run the game cutting in, I think his influence will be diminished. I don't see any of their CMs linking up that well with Messi. Even in current Barca team, while it is not the Pep tiki-taka clone, Messi's link up with the midfield 2 plays a huge role in their build up. Messi essentially only starts on the right in current Barca team, in actuality it is more of a free role. Not sure you are getting the best of him as a traditional winger in any set up.
 
crappycraperson said:
I also don't agree with your take on Charlton in the opposition team. With Messi trying to run the game cutting in, I think his influence will be diminished. I don't see any of their CMs linking up that well with Messi. Even in current Barca team, while it is not the Pep tiki-taka clone, Messi's link up with the midfield 2 plays a huge role in their build up. Messi essentially only starts on the right in current Barca team, in actuality it is more of a free role. Not sure you are getting the best of him as a traditional winger in any set up.
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How is he deployed as a traditional winger? I said it few times now that the plan is to have a fluid mobile front 3 that will interchange during the game. He can link up with Djalma(while he isnt a dribbling fb, his all-around offensive play is very good and can combine very well.), Keane(few class above Rakitic in every segment of the game and he is next to Messi in that Barca setup) and mainly with the front 2 of which both are great in link up play and combining in tight spaces.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
no, he would have the arrows towards the midfield if that was the case :)
He plays his natural game, which is basically that he will be everywhere.....can drop back, will make appearance on both sides of the field and will make constant runs behind the defence and there is no better to pick him out then Messi.
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yeah imagined that would be it, but just to be sure :)

Anyhow I like how you've set it up. Looks to me both sides would have a bit deeper defensive lines.

I'm not sure how Makelele/Keane combo works together to be fair. Not in terms of position sense, Makelele in DM and Keane as b2b is great on paper, just not sure how they would gel, considering their best ability.

On the flip side Beckham without overlapping full back is also interesting, but I also like Balu/crappy's setup.

the 2 defences are also solid for me and balanced well.

At the moment it's dead even for me :)
 
crappycraperson said:
Why wouldn't Masopust be able to contribue in the attacking phase? The example you listed of Didi-Zito .. well Didi played more of an attacking role than a defensive one. After Lothar, Masopust is pretty much the best B2B you can ask for. The midfield 2 is as perfect for 442 as it can be with both midfielder being complete footballers and with one being slightly titled towards more of a defensive role (Edwards).

I also don't agree with your take on Charlton in the opposition team. With Messi trying to run the game cutting in, I think his influence will be diminished. I don't see any of their CMs linking up that well with Messi. Even in current Barca team, while it is not the Pep tiki-taka clone, Messi's link up with the midfield 2 plays a huge role in their build up. Messi essentially only starts on the right in current Barca team, in actuality it is more of a free role. Not sure you are getting the best of him as a traditional winger in any set up.
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Relax. I never said he'll not contribute. He is a great in defence but it is his contribution to attack that sets him apart from other B2Bs and that is best achieved by paying him ahead of another defensive minded player. He is a natural attacking player who was forced to play a defensive style for his country. And no I don't consider him to be the 2nd best after Matthaus. I'd rate Big Dunc, Pirri, Neeskens, Netto to be in the same class below Matthaus. And putting Edwards in a defensive role to Masopust is an abomination in itself imo. I'm that big a fan of Edwards :D.

Don't get you point on Messi/Charlton. Messi has played wide roles and Charlton is playing an older left midfield role (not a #10) here. See no reason they will clash with each other here. The later years United #10 Charlton will not be suitable, but what he's played here will be perfect for both of them, imo.

But yeah, Charlton CM will not have a great defensive output and Eusebio will have more freedom to pick up balls from the deep there. How effective will Makelele be will be the key point which determines the match.
 
Aldo said:
Not sure why you went for a 4-4-2, Balu? A few players in your team have never played in that formation. I'm looking at Burgnich and his role as compared to Neville's is pretty contrasting.
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It looks like a logical fit for his players. Sure it'd be nice to have a full-back support and overlap Beckham, but as a Scirea fan you'd find it more important to get the best out of the Italian. And that is playing a defensively-minded full-back. It's not zona mista because Lizarazu has to have the handbrake on while Conti and various others aren't on the park. But it all fits together quite tastily IMO.
 
As for Messi not allowing Charlton to shine.....for me, Messi is in that Pele category. Great player that also "allows" other greats to shine so i cant see him preventing someone to shine, not in this system nor in any other for that matter.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
How is he deployed as a traditional winger? I said it few times now that the plan is to have a fluid mobile front 3 that will interchange during the game. He can link up with Djalma(while he isnt a dribbling fb, his all-around offensive play is very good and can combine very well.), Keane(few class above Rakitic in every segment of the game and he is next to Messi in that Barca setup) and mainly with the front 2 of which both are great in link up play and combining in tight spaces.
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Like Balu touched in his write up, it is only Messi who can provide any kind of width in the team. I think you are trying to sell your front 3 as some kind of replica of current Barca front 3. Not sure I buy that.

Keane is of course better than Rakitic, NQAT. But not sure if he is the man to play the latter plays in Barca team. Keane's passing was always underrated but still he was not your tiki-taka midfielder who would pass and move umpteen times with someone like Messi.
 
Gio said:
It looks like a logical fit for his players. Sure it'd be nice to have a full-back support and overlap Beckham, but as a Scirea fan you'd find it more important to get the best out of the Italian. And that is playing a defensively-minded full-back. It's not zona mista because Lizarazu has to have the handbrake on while Conti and various others aren't on the park. But it all fits together quite tastily IMO.
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Yeap. Balu made it quite clear that that primary motive was to get the best out of Eusebio and Scirea.
 
I don't think the references to Barcelona help Sjor/Viva. All it does is focus the discussion on how certain players aren't like their Barcelona equivalent and gets into the boring territory that Messi/Xaviesta can only do tiki-taka.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
As for Messi not allowing Charlton to shine.....for me, Messi is in that Pele category. Great player that also "allows" other greats to shine so i cant see him preventing someone to shine, not in this system nor in any other for that matter.
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Fair point, I'd say. I don't see him as likely to get in anyone's way even though he is - as Pelé always was - the de facto main man on the park.

In that regard both Pelé and Messi are somewhat different to someone like, say, Maradona - who you'll want to take charge of matters in a different way. Xavi, to use an obvious example, was just as much a general as Messi was (if not more so), even though the latter was always - again - the actual main man.
 
Gio said:
I don't think the references to Barcelona help Sjor/Viva. All it does is focus the discussion on how certain players aren't like their Barcelona equivalent and gets into the boring territory that Messi/Xaviesta can only do tiki-taka.
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yeah, thats probably my fault even though i mentioned a fair share of times that the setup is different to this Barca side even though there are some similarities. But all the similarities are tactical nature as i think Enrique really did a good job of creating a stage for Messi to shine and it was much easier to me explain to others what would i want and why is someone picked using a comparing method.
Playing wise there arent many similarities, as i said. This team would stay much deeper then the Barca squad, the transition would be much faster and more direct(setup where Charlton would excel) with no tiki taka staff until the final third where the front three would have the freedom to do what they want.
 
crappycraperson said:
I also don't agree with your take on Charlton in the opposition team. With Messi trying to run the game cutting in, I think his influence will be diminished. I don't see any of their CMs linking up that well with Messi. Even in current Barca team, while it is not the Pep tiki-taka clone, Messi's link up with the midfield 2 plays a huge role in their build up. Messi essentially only starts on the right in current Barca team, in actuality it is more of a free role. Not sure you are getting the best of him as a traditional winger in any set up
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How is Messi being played as a traditional winger? That's like ignoring everything we said about his role mate. We said time and time again, Messi plays a free role as a right inside forward like he plays for Barca nowadays. Keane's passing game was good enough to link up with Messi, and Sir Bobby's speed and passing abilities will be exactly the one two's he does with Iniesta so great. Elkjaer, like Suarez, runs relentlessly and all over to front, roaming very often to the right wing, will draw Costacurta and Scirea out of their positions while Messi cuts inside and plays the pass in. Messi does it time and time again when played with forwards so good on the ball who do great movement off it too. He's favourite move of cutting inside and lobbing it to Neymar? Sivori will be there every single time. I doubt Burgnich can beat him on the run every single battle, and Messi can pick his passes. How about passing back to a long shot from Sir Bobby Charlton like so many shots from outside the box he had? That guy was deadly from long rangers. I'd say our attack is as fluid as it comes and perfect setup for Messi to thrive in. Sir Bobby is as good in vision and technique as Iniesta and there's no reason it won't work.
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
How is Messi being played as a traditional winger? That's like ignoring everything we said about his role mate. We said time and time again, Messi plays a free role as a right inside forward like he plays for Barca nowadays. Keane's passing game was good enough to link up with Messi, and Sir Bobby's speed and passing abilities will be exactly the one two's he does with Iniesta so great. Elkjaer, like Suarez, runs relentlessly and all over to front, roaming very often to the right wing, will draw Costacurta and Scirea out of their positions while Messi cuts inside and plays the pass in. Messi does it time and time again when played with forwards so good on the ball who do great movement off it too. He's favourite move of cutting inside and lobbing it to Neymar? Sivori will be there every single time. I doubt Burgnich can beat him on the run every single battle, and Messi can pick his passes. How about passing back to a long shot from Sir Bobby Charlton like so many shots from outside the box he had? That guy was deadly from long rangers. I'd say our attack is as fluid as it comes and perfect setup for Messi to thrive in. Sir Bobby is as good in vision and technique as Iniesta and there's no reason it won't work.
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Agree with all this. It's nicely assembled and works for me.
 
FWIW, Charlton in a more CM-ish (which is what he plays here) role would likely seek out the wider areas as part of his natural game (he usually did that). So, in terms of the width debate, that should be part of the equation.

He loved to move wide in order to influence play from there - had it in his bones, I suppose, from his younger days and it remained a part of his game.
 
Is Lizarazu being asked for too much?
Remember who we're talking about, It's Messi, he doesn't need much to score. Messi will undeniably beat him on several occasions, and from that right side of the box you know that's all he needs:
6cs5h9e99RDvq.gif
 
It's getting incredibly hard to think about Messi doing anything but ripping the opposition apart more so in such elite company. He's showed he can combine seamlessly with world class players like xavi iniesta suarez and neymar and get even better with them. Close game this but Messi will end up with a big impact. It has reached a point when it doesn't matter who he's up against.
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
How is Messi being played as a traditional winger? That's like ignoring everything we said about his role mate. We said time and time again, Messi plays a free role as a right inside forward like he plays for Barca nowadays. Keane's passing game was good enough to link up with Messi, and Sir Bobby's speed and passing abilities will be exactly the one two's he does with Iniesta so great. Elkjaer, like Suarez, runs relentlessly and all over to front, roaming very often to the right wing, will draw Costacurta and Scirea out of their positions while Messi cuts inside and plays the pass in. Messi does it time and time again when played with forwards so good on the ball who do great movement off it too. He's favourite move of cutting inside and lobbing it to Neymar? Sivori will be there every single time. I doubt Burgnich can beat him on the run every single battle, and Messi can pick his passes. How about passing back to a long shot from Sir Bobby Charlton like so many shots from outside the box he had? That guy was deadly from long rangers. I'd say our attack is as fluid as it comes and perfect setup for Messi to thrive in. Sir Bobby is as good in vision and technique as Iniesta and there's no reason it won't work.
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You are convoluting the issue here.

Like Balu said, both Alba and Alves are huge part of Barca's set up. You simply don't have the right kind of full backs who would stretch the play and allow the wide forwards to cut in. The point was that Messi is the only player on the pitch who can provide any kind of natural width. Like I said before I simply don't buy the trio you have set up as analogous to current Barca trio.
 
Gio said:
I don't think the references to Barcelona help Sjor/Viva. All it does is focus the discussion on how certain players aren't like their Barcelona equivalent and gets into the boring territory that Messi/Xaviesta can only do tiki-taka.
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You can't avoid it when they are trying to claim that Messi will get to play his current free role from the right. It is not as simple as just putting him on the right. I am not suggesting that he won't have an impact on the game but the points raised about lack of any proper attacking full backs in the team or questions about Messi's link up with the midfielders deployed are valid. As it is, all 3 forwards in the team will gravitate towards the middle, who will stretch the play in that case? Burgnich will simply tuck in, giving Scirea the free role to shut out any opening.
 
@crappycraperson i already answered the question you persistently put up. Its okay if you guys dont agree with the answer but whats the point of asking the same question over and over? Specially if you got the answer first time the question was asked.
 
Who will stop Messi? Even if we assume we fecked it up and Messi is in the worst system he could possibly be, its still Messi. Best player that ever played the game and he is against Lizarazu. There is no way Lizarazu can stop him 1v1, Czibor wont help much, Masopust isnt really a defensive specialist and there is Scirea. Yes he is one of the best ever but he cant mop up after Lizarazu and shielding space behind the defence where Elkjaer and Sivori will make their runs.





Lets not take him for granted......
 
crappycraperson said:
You are convoluting the issue here.

Like Balu said, both Alba and Alves are huge part of Barca's set up. You simply don't have the right kind of full backs who would stretch the play and allow the wide forwards to cut in. The point was that Messi is the only player on the pitch who can provide any kind of natural width. Like I said before I simply don't buy the trio you have set up as analogous to current Barca trio.
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crappycraperson said:
You can't avoid it when they are trying to claim that Messi will get to play his current free role from the right. It is not as simple as just putting him on the right. I am not suggesting that he won't have an impact on the game but the points raised about lack of any proper attacking full backs in the team or questions about Messi's link up with the midfielders deployed are valid. As it is, all 3 forwards in the team will gravitate towards the middle, who will stretch the play in that case? Burgnich will simply tuck in, giving Scirea the free role to shut out any opening.
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I couldn't agree more about the first part. We don't have the right kind of full backs to play the Barca setup. Which is why, we repeatedly said we won't be playing the Barca setup.
But, and this is important, the front three is in fact similar to the MSN trio in style of play, plus it has better individuals around Messi. To get the best out of Messi in the MSN system you need a very fluid front three who moves constantly into channels. I said it a lot and I'll say it again, Elkjaer is a very similar man to Suarez in that way of working hard and creating chances for himself and the forwards around him with his work rate movement and finishing abilities. On the left wing, we've got an inside forward who would come and receive these Messi killer balls when cutting inside. Burgnich can follow Sivori all day and I bet he'll win some of those balls, but with a lethal passer like Messi and a quick runner like Sivori, it's bound to find the net at some point.
Add to that the attacking flair of roaming Bobby Charlton and his passes and/or long shots. That's defence crushing.

So no, again, this is not the Barcelona playing style nor the Barca setup, and that is why we don't need exactly full backs like Alba and Alves, just like we don't need exactly Rakitic or Iniesta, because we have superior footballers, who are perfect to support Messi and the front three is as similar as it gets to MSN in playing style, but hey! It's even better!

Aldo said:
It's getting incredibly hard to think about Messi doing anything but ripping the opposition apart more so in such elite company. He's showed he can combine seamlessly with world class players like xavi iniesta suarez and neymar and get even better with them. Close game this but Messi will end up with a big impact. It has reached a point when it doesn't matter who he's up against.
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It does matter, but this time his against a very good full back in Lizarazu who I adore, but who isn't sufficient for this role all by himself.
 
And with all well earned respect to Scirea, he's pretty far from Messi and will have Charlton to deal with as well. After Messi repeatedly beat Lizarazu he'll be facing Costacurta and not Scirea.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
FWIW, Charlton in a more CM-ish (which is what he plays here) role would likely seek out the wider areas as part of his natural game (he usually did that). So, in terms of the width debate, that should be part of the equation.

He loved to move wide in order to influence play from there - had it in his bones, I suppose, from his younger days and it remained a part of his game.
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Yeah, that's fair enough. I did think about him when I wrote about one of the central players acting as a wide midfielder. I don't think it really helps stretching our defense though and that's certainly a problem. It won't prevent Burgnich from tucking it to cover Sivori and Masopust with the help of Beckham can certainly do a job on that version of Charlton.

VivaJanuzaj said:
Is Lizarazu being asked for too much?
Remember who we're talking about, It's Messi, he doesn't need much to score. Messi will undeniably beat him on several occasions, and from that right side of the box you know that's all he needs:
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He's not asked too much, because he's not left alone to deal with Messi. He's surrounded by brilliant teammates. The same way Makelele surely isn't asked to deal with Eusebio on his own, because he would be totally lost? In fact, we have a terrific set of players covering Messi's runs if he dribbles past Liza. If he cuts inside, he runs into an area marshalled by Duncan Edwards, if he goes towards the box, he faces Costacurta and Scirea.

It's just silly to nitpick on Lizarazu the way you do now and even more the way @Šjor Bepo did on the previous page with his laughable and plain stupid comment where he put Makelele as a GOAT next to Messi and Eusebio and tried to portray Lizarazu as a weak link. You guys are either desperate to win or have absolutely no clue how brilliant a player Lizarazu actually was. His influence in the Bayern side around the millenium shits on anything Makelele ever did. He was the best defender in a CL winning side without losing his influence going forward. It was also reflected well in the Ballon d'Or that year, when he finished 11th, the best defender on the list and the 2nd best Bayern player. We missed him as much in the CL final in '99 as United missed Keane or Scholes. He was sensational for that four year period, easily up there with Kahn and Effenberg as our best player. Obviously he won't shut Messi out on his own, no one would. He's not the slightest bit a liability here though.
 
Regarding Messi. There is no point in having draft games, if the argument is that he alone is going to win you games. He will have to beat Lizrazu and then Costacurta (on occasions even free Scirea given Burgnich will tuck in) and finally get it past Gordon Banks of all keepers. If someone feels that he will score more than enough goals to win the game for his team, then fair enough you can vote for the opposition, no complaints from us.
 
Balu said:
He's not asked too much, because he's not left alone to deal with Messi. He's surrounded by brilliant teammates. The same way Makelele surely isn't asked to deal with Eusebio on his own, because he would be totally lost? In fact, we have a terrific set of players covering Messi's runs if he dribbles past Liza. If he cuts inside, he runs into an area marshalled by Duncan Edwards, if he goes towards the box, he faces Costacurta and Scirea.

It's just silly to nitpick on Lizarazu the way you do now and even more the way @Šjor Bepo did on the previous page with his laughable and plain stupid comment where he put Makelele as a GOAT next to Messi and Eusebio and tried to portray Lizarazu as a weak link. You guys are either desperate to win or have absolutely no clue how brilliant a player Lizarazu actually was. His influence in the Bayern side around the millenium shits on anything Makelele ever did. He was the best defender in a CL winning side without losing his influence going forward. It was also reflected well in the Ballon d'Or that year, when he finished 11th, the best defender on the list and the 2nd best Bayern player. We missed him as much in the CL final in '99 as United missed Keane or Scholes. He was sensational for that four year period, easily up there with Kahn and Effenberg as our best player. Obviously he won't shut Messi out on his own, no one would. He's not the slightest bit a liability here though.
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I didn't mean to portray Lizarazu as a weak link and I really do acknowledge everything he has done with Bayern. But you'd probably prefer a more defensive minded full back or even a tucked LB like Burgnich is on the other side. And it's not really like Messi is beating Lizarazu and facing the brick wall of Edwards or Costacurta and Scirea, he will face either and probably it's Costacurta as this is his side. If both go to him I reckon Sivori-Elkjaer will enjoy a lot of space for Messi to release a quick pass inside. And I'm not even trying to say Messi will crush Lizarazu, I even said he'll stop him occasionally, but Messi is a huge favourite for this battle and as I said before, he doesn't need much space in the box to send a shot to the top left corner if he beats his first man. With Lizarazu allowed some freedom going forward and Czibor who'll have a joining Djalma to worry, Messi is bound to take this battle more than a couple of times and with that fluid attacking movement from our supporting cast(Sir Bobby, Sivori & Elkjaer) goals will come.
 
crappycraperson said:
Regarding Messi. There is no point in having draft games, if the argument is that he alone is going to win you games. He will have to beat Lizrazu and then Costacurta (on occasions even free Scirea given Burgnich will tuck in) and finally get it past Gordon Banks of all keepers. If someone feels that he will score more than enough goals to win the game for his team, then fair enough you can vote for the opposition, no complaints from us.
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It's obviously not as simple as that.

The fact is, however, that Messi belongs in that category of truly exceptional players who can be the crucial difference in a given match - even a fantasy match like this one - that is otherwise fairly evenly balanced.

When you have a player like that on the park, you need to either a) field a similar player, b) field a generally (and clearly, I suppose) stronger overall team or c) take special measures to limit his influence.

If you don't do any of the above (or fail to do so sufficiently), the player will stand out as a factor to be considered with.
 
crappycraperson said:
Regarding Messi. There is no point in having draft games, if the argument is that he alone is going to win you games. He will have to beat Lizrazu and then Costacurta (on occasions even free Scirea given Burgnich will tuck in) and finally get it past Gordon Banks of all keepers. If someone feels that he will score more than enough goals to win the game for his team, then fair enough you can vote for the opposition, no complaints from us.
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There's no point ignoring the fact he can do these things either otherwise we might as well not take him. The argument isn't "he'll beat Lizarazu and than Costacurta and than Scirea sometimes", it's more like "he'll probably beat Lizarazu quite often with the freedom he's getting, and when Costacurta approaches him he might beat him or manage to find a pass to a forward running inside as they both excelled in.
Portraying our entire tactic and everything we've put time into writing here as saying "we've got Messi so we'll win" is not cool..
 
crappycraperson said:
Regarding Messi. There is no point in having draft games, if the argument is that he alone is going to win you games. He will have to beat Lizrazu and then Costacurta (on occasions even free Scirea given Burgnich will tuck in) and finally get it past Gordon Banks of all keepers. If someone feels that he will score more than enough goals to win the game for his team, then fair enough you can vote for the opposition, no complaints from us.
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You can influence a game without scoring or dribbling past three players. You very well know that.
 
@Balu i couldnt give a feck about winning in drafts, the only reason im playing this is because of the drafting, something i said before the draft when there was talk about more teams in the tournament. The comment was maybe over the top but in his specific role Makelele is for me in the GOAT category, Lizarazu isnt even though he was a brilliant player.
Aldo asked the question of who will win the duel for the game, Makelele - Eusebio or Messi - Lizarazu. What i was trying to say that is much bigger gap between Messi and Lizarazu then it is in the other pair.
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
I didn't mean to portray Lizarazu as a weak link and I really do acknowledge everything he has done with Bayern. But you'd probably prefer a more defensive minded full back or even a tucked LB like Burgnich is on the other side. And it's not really like Messi is beating Lizarazu and facing the brick wall of Edwards or Costacurta and Scirea, he will face either and probably it's Costacurta as this is his side. If both go to him I reckon Sivori-Elkjaer will enjoy a lot of space for Messi to release a quick pass inside. And I'm not even trying to say Messi will crush Lizarazu, I even said he'll stop him occasionally, but Messi is a huge favourite for this battle and as I said before, he doesn't need much space in the box to send a shot to the top left corner if he beats his first man. With Lizarazu allowed some freedom going forward and Czibor who'll have a joining Djalma to worry, Messi is bound to take this battle more than a couple of times and with that fluid attacking movement from our supporting cast(Sir Bobby, Sivori & Elkjaer) goals will come.
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I actually disagree with the type of fullback you want on Messi. A tucked in centerback often lacks the mobility to keep up with Messi's movement and someone like Lizarazu is a lot better suited to stay on his feet, recover, keep track with the quick changes in direction. Different type of attackers need different types of attention. I don't think there's a single leftback in the world today who can match Lizarazu's defensive ability. Alaba comes close and sadly was injured last year when we faced Barca and Messi ripped Bernat apart, but I'd say Alaba offers more going forward and less defensively compared to Liza at his peak.

I also disagree with how you portray a defensive set-up works, especially one that isn't stretched through quick wingplay. You really run into a wall with small gaps. Like I said in the op, we defend with 2 banks of four. Czibor actually had great workrate for a winger of his type, which was necessary in Hungary's pressing system and pretty normal for the Eastern European players of that time. There's not one player after the next one showing up and waiting to be dribbled or passed by like you suggest.
 
Balu said:
Czibor actually had great workrate for a winger of his type, which was necessary in Hungary's pressing system and pretty normal for the Eastern European players of that time.
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That's true. He was more of a "defensive" factor than your average winger (outside left) would be in old school set-ups (whether it was a Hungarian model or not).
 
Incredibly close match this, but I find it interesting that sjor/viva team keep making references to MSN and how Keane is an improvement over Rakitic, while also maintaining that they are not playing Barca system. You can't really have both, I think Balu has a genuine question of where is the width come from in their side ? Because its not coming from fullbacks and its not really coming from the forwards.

I also don't think its a superior MSN either, I rate Suarez and Neymar higher or similar to what Messi have here.
 
Balu said:
I actually disagree with the type of fullback you want on Messi. A tucked in centerback often lacks the mobility to keep up with Messi's movement and someone like Lizarazu is a lot better suited to stay on his feet, recover, keep track with the quick changes in direction. Different type of attackers need different types of attention. I don't think there's a single leftback in the world today who can match Lizarazu's defensive ability. Alaba comes close and sadly was injured last year when we faced Barca and Messi ripped Bernat apart, but I'd say Alaba offers more going forward and less defensively compared to Liza at his peak.

I also disagree with how you portray a defensive set-up works, especially one that isn't stretched through quick wingplay. You really run into a wall with small gaps. Like I said in the op, we defend with 2 banks of four. Czibor actually had great workrate for a winger of his type, which was necessary in Hungary's pressing system and pretty normal for the Eastern European players of that time. There's not one player after the next one showing up and waiting to be dribbled or passed by like you suggest.
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Fair enough, maybe Messi is better off against more pacy full backs who can recover quickly, but that still doesn't mean Lizarazu can do the job required of him, no matter how great we are. And portraying our attacking tactic as "give the ball to Messi and he'll run shit riots at the opponent" like crappy suggested is really frustrating considering the time I took to bloody write all this stuff.

Czibor was great in terms of work rate, definitely, but with Djalma coming forward it's not like he's free to defend against Messi. Yes, Djalma is not as offensive as Alves I know, but he was a much much better football player and a more complete RB and he the fact that he's not Alves doesn't mean he can't create width at all or he doesn't need Czibor's attention.
 
Tuppet said:
Incredibly close match this, but I find it interesting that sjor/viva team keep making references to MSN and how Keane is an improvement over Rakitic, while also maintaining that they are not playing Barca system. You can't really have both, I think Balu has a genuine question of where is the width come from in their side ? Because its not coming from fullbacks and its not really coming from the forwards.

I also don't think its a superior MSN either, I rate Suarez and Neymar higher or similar to what Messi have here.
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here is our answer for the system
Billy No Mates Draft: R1 - Balu/crappy vs Sjor/Viva

width part was also answered on the first page...
 
Tuppet said:
I also don't think its a superior MSN either, I rate Suarez and Neymar higher or similar to what Messi have here.
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Than you seriously underrate both Elkjaer, who was almost as important as Laudrup to Denmark's NT success in a very entertaining side and that gave him the 2nd and 3rd Ballon d'Or finishes(just falling of short of Platini), and Sivori who actually won the Ballon d'Or in 1961.
 
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