Penarol or Nacional?
Biggest clubs per league
- Thread starter TheReligion
- Start date
Wrong, UEFA cup already existed at the time, Sporting has almost 0 pedigree in Europe, their biggest success in 50 years was loosing Uefa Cup final at home against a russian team.
Why is it on par? They are smaller in terms of finances, smaller in terms of following, Dortmund has won the most leagues out of the three, finished runner up the most out of the three, Dortmund has won the most domestic cups out of the three, Dortmund and Hamburg are tied for European cups, Dortmund is second in the all-time table, Gladbach and Hamburg are 5th and 6th and as you've alluded to yourself, Dortmund have had (many) more years of being a top team than the other two. Gladbach and Hamburg both have a rich history that deserves to be respected, but I struggle to come up with a set of metrics that wouldn't put Dortmund ahead of them.
The membership number is one of the few things Schalke has left to mark them as a big club. So it probably doesn't surprise you that they sell it at a heavy discount for €30 p.a., when Bayern take €60 p.a. and Dortmund even €120 p.a. .
True, I give you that Dortmund had a longer spell of being a top club, so should be ahead of those two. My "metric" was simply that all these clubs were dominant at times in Germany (and successful in Europe), usually in a duopoly with Bayern München.
The cup winners cup was the second most prestigious European trophy at the time. Try again. In fact the Europa league, Uefa Cup, and cup winners cup are all in the same family and are mergers.
Their is no Portugal soccer history without Sporting.
4/5 best Portuguese players of all time are from Sporting. If you go down the list we also make up a huge number of the 6-15 slot.
Even Eusébio was discovered by Sporting and played for their affiliate club in Mozambique.
Euro 2016 the starting team of our only major European trophy was compiled of a starting 11 that only featured two players who were not from Sporting.
Some of the best players in Benfica and Porto history are even from Sporting. QUaresma and Simao. Benfica’s best player from this season Joao Mario is a Sporting boy.
So let’s have a little more respect here thank you.
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Are you just picking what bits suit? You’re confusing me
Amended......rest is ok
Also Chelsea don’t have a bigger stadium than Liverpool. They have the smallest stadium out of all the rest of the top 6. It’s also smaller than Villa Park and St James’ Park.
They have won the European Cup twice which is on par with Nottingham Forest.
City are a bigger team than United? Even the most hardcore City fan sat in his sky blue room with his Paul Dickov posters on his wall, wearing his Kappa tracksuit with Oasis playing softly in the background wouldn't make this claim because it's absolutely laughable.
What that has to do with European pedigree? Clubs like Steua Bucharest, Feynord, Red Star Belgrade, Celtiv have much better european pedigree
Your point is null and void.
We have won a European trophy.
You have 2 we have 1 what’s your point?
Benfica and Sporting both have not won a European trophy in the same amount of years.
Cry more.
Glentoran are shite and haven't won the league in around 20 years. Lingfield are state funded.
Crusaders & Cliftonville the real big two in NI.
Wrong, we have 7
I thought you were a Benfica fan.
Regardless of the matter trying to say Sporting does not belong on this list is borderline special Ed to say the least.
I'm fairly certain there are many more Liverpool fans here in Australia. I definitely know more Liverpool fans and see more of their jerseys.
Germany simply has no 2nd club. Nuremburg, schalke, hamburg, gladbach, dortmund, Bremen, Stuttgart all have a claim making it impossible to have a 2nd big club.
France doesn’t even have one giant club that dominated for decades.
Belgium has Anderlecht and Bruges. Though in Belgium many people say The classic match is Anderlecht - Standard. Then there is also the peculiarity of Union who have won 11 championships before ww2 then pretty much disappeared for decades until returning in the last 2 seasons and miraculously play top 4 twice.
France doesn’t even have one giant club that dominated for decades.
Belgium has Anderlecht and Bruges. Though in Belgium many people say The classic match is Anderlecht - Standard. Then there is also the peculiarity of Union who have won 11 championships before ww2 then pretty much disappeared for decades until returning in the last 2 seasons and miraculously play top 4 twice.
Aye dead on mate. How many league titles do they have between them?
These kinds of affirmations start out as truths but then become a bit of myth once a clubs hits a certain size. Plenty of working class types support River Plate and lots of establishment people in Argentina support Boca.
I've heard the same applies to the Milan clubs (Milan started out more working class and Inter was the cosmopolitan bourgeois club) but I'll let an Italian explain if its true or not.
Short answer, yes... that was definitely a thing around the middle of last century but really not anymore since long
Stuttgart up there?
Stuttgart won some titles, but it never had a dominant spell like the others, so for me they are a tier below those I mentioned, more on par with Bremen or Schalke
Flamengo are a level above everyone else in Brazil in terms of size, fans etc. Corinthians are very popular because of their success in the late 90s/early 00s, when they had a brilliant team. Palmeiras & São Paulo are both historically big teams, and Palmeiras have been very good in recent years. In terms of sporting success, Palmeiras is closing up to Flamengo. Also winning the league this year.
In terms of sporting performances, the CBF have a ranking both for clubs and states used for cup and Série D qualifications.
Points are based on performances in the past 5 years.
2022 CBF Club Ranking [link]
17 054 -- Flamengo
14 584 -- Palmeiras
14 572 -- Atlético Mineiro
14 336 -- Grêmio (Série B)
13 512 -- Athletico Paranaense
2022 IPEC Survey of fandom [link]
21.8% -- Flamengo
15.5% -- Corinthians
8.2% -- São Paulo
7.4% -- Palmeiras
4.2% - Vasco da Gama
2022 Average home attendance [link]
Top 20 - MAIORES MÉDIAS DE PÚBLICO EM 2022
43.400 -- Flamengo (based on 33 games)
37.558 -- Corinthians (based on 33 games)
33.845 -- São Paulo (based on 35 games)
33.229 -- Palmeiras (based on 33 games)
30.663 -- Cruzeiro (based on 26 games)
30.000 -- Fortaleza (based on 32 games)
Flamengo would top lists for number of fans globally, and club value as well, most likely.
League Titles
10 - Palmeiras (will be 11 in a few weeks)
8 -- Santos
8 -- Flamengo
7 -- Corinthians
6 -- São Paulo
Copa Libertadores titles
3 -- São Paulo, Palmeiras, Santos, Grêmio, Flamengo
2 -- Cruzeiro, Internacional
1 -- Vasco, Corinthians, Atlético Mineiro
LOL! alot more than Glentoran do this century. And alot more European and Cup success this century too.
Now you're following your state funded brothers Linfield by becoming foreign funded and try to buy your way to the top.
North Belfast is the home to Irish league football. Proper working class clubs that earn their success on the pitch. Don't buy it.
The term biggest is open to interpretation, but if you are combining all factors such as trophies won, global fan base and stadium size then there is no argument that United, and Liverpool are the biggest two in England.
United and Liverpool have won almost double the number of trophies that Chelsea has.
United and Liverpool have won almost double the number of trophies that Chelsea has.
If you are including U.S. fan base, which is a lot of fans, Chelsea is huge in the U.S. The EPL viewership blew up in the U.S. in the 90s and 2000s.
I include everything. I fully understand that outside UK Chelsea and City got huge number of fans in last decade or two. But despite that Liverpool and United are still two biggest clubs with biggest fanbase.
Those stats are based on social media which is ridiculous. First of all many fans don't follow clubs on social media.
Also one example; one United fan follows his club only on lets say FB. One Chelsea fan follows his club on 4 social media. It counts Chelsea 4 fans: United 1 fan.
In Bosnia it is really interesting. Sarajevo and Željezničar are the only two that have been both successful in Yugoslavia and since the state is independent. Most of historical clubs are struggling today and will probably never come even close to what their large fanbases are expecting based on their historical importance.
Interesting part is Mostar, with Zrinjski/Velez rivalry. Velez was huge club, producing ridiculous amount of talent in Yugoslavia and being capable of beating pretty much anyone. Zrinjski was forbidden in ex-Yugoslavia due to associations with fascist NDH state, so Velez was supported by everyone in Herzegovina.
When Bosnia gained independence, Zrinjski was once more established, while Velez nearly ceased to exist on multiple occasions. Zrinjski is supported by Croats, Velez mostly by Bosniaks, altough their fanbase is larger and consists of many casual fans even from other countries, mostly those who are stil yugonostalgic.
Velez is once again back close to top, but Zrinjski is now most successful Bosnian club, having won seven out of twenty titles since inception of the Bosnian Premier league on the territory of whole Bosnia and Herzegovina (2002/2003 season).
Looking at the whole history, Sarajevo have won Yugoslav league twice and Bosnian championship five times, Željezničar have won Yugoslav league once, winning Bosnian league six times, while Zrinjski have won Bosnian league seven times and are on course to add eighth title.
European and historic pedigree puts Željezničar, Sarajevo and Velež above all the rest, but Zrinjski have really put themselves into every conversation about most successful, if not biggest Bosnian clubs.
Bosnian league is definitely the one I wouldn't recommend following without understanding the broader context. It is certainly weaker than most of the European leagues, but in terms of how evenly matched teams are, I'd compare it to Premiership.
There are no games like Barcelona or Real Madrid vs Eibar, where you can rest half of your team and win comfortably.
There is a lot of rivalry between different regional centres that have clubs with rich history, which contributes to having multiple derby games every round, which are very intense.
For example, my club got knocked out of Bosnian Cup this season in the round of 32 by Čelik Zenica who are right now playing in third league. The stadium was packed, close to ten thousand Čelik fans gathered, making it a very difficult tie for us. There are many such games throughout the season and you have to be mentally very well prepared.
Sorry for the long post.
Interesting part is Mostar, with Zrinjski/Velez rivalry. Velez was huge club, producing ridiculous amount of talent in Yugoslavia and being capable of beating pretty much anyone. Zrinjski was forbidden in ex-Yugoslavia due to associations with fascist NDH state, so Velez was supported by everyone in Herzegovina.
When Bosnia gained independence, Zrinjski was once more established, while Velez nearly ceased to exist on multiple occasions. Zrinjski is supported by Croats, Velez mostly by Bosniaks, altough their fanbase is larger and consists of many casual fans even from other countries, mostly those who are stil yugonostalgic.
Velez is once again back close to top, but Zrinjski is now most successful Bosnian club, having won seven out of twenty titles since inception of the Bosnian Premier league on the territory of whole Bosnia and Herzegovina (2002/2003 season).
Looking at the whole history, Sarajevo have won Yugoslav league twice and Bosnian championship five times, Željezničar have won Yugoslav league once, winning Bosnian league six times, while Zrinjski have won Bosnian league seven times and are on course to add eighth title.
European and historic pedigree puts Željezničar, Sarajevo and Velež above all the rest, but Zrinjski have really put themselves into every conversation about most successful, if not biggest Bosnian clubs.
Bosnian league is definitely the one I wouldn't recommend following without understanding the broader context. It is certainly weaker than most of the European leagues, but in terms of how evenly matched teams are, I'd compare it to Premiership.
There are no games like Barcelona or Real Madrid vs Eibar, where you can rest half of your team and win comfortably.
There is a lot of rivalry between different regional centres that have clubs with rich history, which contributes to having multiple derby games every round, which are very intense.
For example, my club got knocked out of Bosnian Cup this season in the round of 32 by Čelik Zenica who are right now playing in third league. The stadium was packed, close to ten thousand Čelik fans gathered, making it a very difficult tie for us. There are many such games throughout the season and you have to be mentally very well prepared.
Sorry for the long post.
This cannot be true. And believe me this is coming from someone who absolutely loathes Liverpool. But they are way bigger than Chelsea. I have lived in 5 different countries and visited countless others in Europe and Asia but nowhere is Chelsea considered bigger than the Scousers. Can't speak for Africa though having never been there, though I suppose Chelsea do have more African superstars play for them than Liverpool historically but even that's changed recently with Salah and Mane.
Every single research done on the subject, no matter the criteria, says Chelsea have a bigger global fanbase than Liverpool
If you don't believe research to be correct, that's your prerogative
It sounds like maybe I was over-rating Santos and they don't really belong with the 4 of Flamengo, Corinthians, Palmeiras and Sao Paulo. I think perhaps the association of Santos with Pele has gained them more international recognition than they have inside Brazil itself.[/QUOTE]
yup, people just have to realize that being still generally perceived as a more illustrious club and actually currently having a bigger fanbase are two different things
Social Media is the only way that many younger fans follow a team. Most of them do not go to internet sites like this. If you are excluding social media, then your list is subjective. I really don't know how a list could be objective?
Most of those aren't really fans.Social Media is the only way that many younger fans follow a team. Most of them do not go to internet sites like this. If you are excluding social media, then your list is subjective. I really don't know how a list could be objective?
That is a pretty big reach.
. Liverpool have miles more fans than Chelsea. They're a far bigger club. Why is this even debatable?
Because the data and analytics does not support it. If you want to go with your gut, that is on you, but if you are looking for data supported conclusions, you go with what the data supports. In either case, no data supports a statement that either club is miles more.
It's not a bad shout, they're still one of the big 12 clubs, but I'd put them outside of the top, top clubs at the moment. But outside of a selected few clubs, most clubs tend to not be able to maintain a solid team for more than a few seasons at a time. There's a bunch of big teams in the second tier this season, like Vasco, Cruzeiro and Grêmio.
Also, Santos attendance numbers are skewed a bit by being located outside of the city of São Paulo. They still bring through exciting players all the time. Santos occasionally have really good seasons, and deep runs in the Libertadores, like winning in 2011 with Neymar, and getting to the final in 2020 with an exciting front line of Marinho, Soteldo and Kaio Jorge, but their prime was that team in the 60s with Pelé.
Another thing I didn't mention in the first post is that the World Club Cup / Intercontinental Cup is kind of a big deal in Brazil, so some of the teams are helped by having won it. Palmeiras failing to get to the 2020 final was the source of a lot of banter, given they've never won it.
FWCC Winners
3 - São Paulo
2 - Santos, Corinthians
1 - Grêmio, Flamengo, Internacional
Fun fact: Both of Flamengo's final appeareances were against Liverpool. They won 3-0 v Dalglish, Souness etc. and took prime Klopp liverpool to extra time, despite it being their 77th game of that campaign.
Doesn't matter what century it is. The Big 2 are called that for a reason. I'm not a supporter of Linfield or the Glen's but to spout the BS you've just done is a joke! Ffs mate your getting on like them two are oil funded . North Belfast is a shithole and the home of plenty of things but not football
Social Media is the only way that many younger fans follow a team. Most of them do not go to internet sites like this. If you are excluding social media, then your list is subjective. I really don't know how a list could be objective?
Facebook followers = fans. Modern football everyone.
I think analytics goes well beyond following, although that surely is a data point. If they used analytics from my twitter feed the would surely know that by far the poultry 1,500 followers I have, are mostly fellow Chelsea fans. They would know that most of the football media that I follow is centered around Chelsea. They would know that most of the transfer tweets I click on are Chelsea related. They would know that most of the player's tweets I click on are Chelsea related. I imagine that the analytics behind marketing to person is enough to determine what team they are most aligned with.