[Adam-Utd]

It was confusing, it was almost like bastian was told to press high and hard as soon as cazorla got the ball, but nobody else in the team followed suit.

The problems came from that really, carrick sat very deep and bastian sprinted off which left a massive hole in midfield for ozil and then Ramsey who was floating more into midfield.

 

[Balu]

One of the things I noticed about Bayern recently is how much they work in pressing their opponents to recover possession - it's relentless. I think Schweini still sees the way Bayern played perhaps as THE way, and does so instinctively. I'd like to see him paired with Schneiderlin and being both given instructions to press.

I only watched the first 25 minutes, but it really looked as if Basti was playing Guardiola tactics and the rest of the midfield van Gaal tactics. Which obviously sucks and shouldn't happen. It's a bit odd though, because he's normally a very disciplined player. There had to be a colossal misunderstanding somewhere, it didn't make sense at all. Whatever it was, he should have realised that he's causing way more problems than he's solving and should have stopped, acted calmly from a deeper position until the game lost its pace a bit.

What was in my opinion even more worrying, no one reacted. There's a midfield with 3 experienced players in Carrick, Schweinsteiger and Rooney and there was no communication, no together, no problem solving. And van Gaal didn't look as if he gave instructions either. For almost half an hour, no one did anything to change what was going wrong. It was surreal to watch. It happens, that players have a bad day and that the manager gets the tactics wrong and it's never guaranteed that changes ingame help. But the indifference from the whole United team and coaching staff to it all was so so weird to see.

 

[Dans]

What was in my opinion even more worrying, no one reacted. There's a midfield with 3 experienced players in Carrick, Schweinsteiger and Rooney and there was no communication, no together, no problem solving. And van Gaal didn't look as if he gave instructions either. For almost half an hour, no one did anything to change what was going wrong. It was surreal to watch. It happens, that players have a bad day and that the manager gets the tactics wrong and it's never guaranteed that changes ingame help. But the indifference from the whole United team and coaching staff to it all was so so weird to see.

I think this comes of Rooney being captain. Like so many English players, he has no game intelligence (see also English national team where our players struggle with the lack of foreigners in the team). Agree that nothing coming from the coach is worrying though.

Schweini should be our captain for the next 2 - 3 years and hopefully some of the game intelligence he has will rub off on whoever becomes our next captain.

 

[Balu]

Schweini should be our captain for the next 2 - 3 years and hopefully some of the game intelligence he has will rub off on whoever becomes our next captain.

He didn't show much intelligence in the game against Arsenal though . Maybe he's a bit overmotivated, too excited and wants to do too much in that box to box role. It really looked as if he wanted to do everything and forgot to do the basics first and that's not really like him.

I've defended Rooney a bit in the past because I like him a lot as a player, but yeah, he's clearly an awful captain and he's just an odd fit for the role van Gaal forces him into. I don't think Schweinsteiger needs to be captain, he never was at Bayern and only after the World Cup win became captain for Germany. It doesn't mean anything for his influence on his teammates. He's new in the team, let someone else be captain. But his role needs to be a lot clearer, a lot more defined and that's on van Gaal to do. He's better in a deeper role when the game is played in front of him anyway.

 

[JPRouve]

I only watched the first 25 minutes, but it really looked as if Basti was playing Guardiola tactics and the rest of the midfield van Gaal tactics. Which obviously sucks and shouldn't happen. It's a bit odd though, because he's normally a very disciplined player. There had to be a colossal misunderstanding somewhere, it didn't make sense at all. Whatever it was, he should have realised that he's causing way more problems than he's solving and should have stopped, acted calmly from a deeper position until the game lost its pace a bit.

What was in my opinion even more worrying, no one reacted. There's a midfield with 3 experienced players in Carrick, Schweinsteiger and Rooney and there was no communication, no together, no problem solving. And van Gaal didn't look as if he gave instructions either. For almost half an hour, no one did anything to change what was going wrong. It was surreal to watch. It happens, that players have a bad day and that the manager gets the tactics wrong and it's never guaranteed that changes ingame help. But the indifference from the whole United team and coaching staff to it all was so so weird to see.

It's not uncommon with United under LVG, when things are bad, they are really bad and the players are visibly lost on the field and in their minds.
They are totally unable to even slightly adapt to the circumstances in order to stay within Van gaal's tactics.

 

[Adisa]

The times today claimed Van Gaal wanted to press Arsenal from the off which could suggest Bastian running around like a mad man but the senior players like Carrick and Rooney wanted to sit back. We were set to press, our back four was very high up the pitch but Carrick, Rooney weren't putting any pressure on the ball and our wingers were very advanced. Was a disaster really.

 

[clarkydaz]

It was utterly suicidal play from Schweinsteiger but it totally exposes the Carrick deep down we all know. I don't get the high praise/he's under appreciated bs. He does a decent job most of the time and is very good at best but he is a passenger and his style of play is completely playing to the status quo and 'tacitical positioning' i.e being content with sitting deep.



I think Schweini does what Schweini wants i.e he might get told tactics etc but his natural instincts will dictate where is on the pitch and most managers will allow that because of his ability and leadership. I think the LVG post match interview sort of confirms it for me. The interviewer basically asked 'why was he pressing so high and was it your instructions?' and LVG's quizzical response was to dodge any direct criticism of Schwein's movements and his own tactics (because they didn't matched i.e he didn't want to admit who was 'wrong').

You sir, are an idiot. i dont know where to start with this. The game plan was to press high, Neville even said seconds before kick off look how high united's line is from kick off, set up to press. WATCH IT AGAIN. What LVG said afterwards was he didnt want Arsenal having time on the ball letting them decide their passes. While the tactics were questionable he was doing exactly what was asked, wheras people like Rooney/Carrick went hiding, likely with years of beating Arsenal on the counter firmly etched in their heads

 

[clarkydaz]

The times today claimed Van Gaal wanted to press Arsenal from the off which could suggest Bastian running around like a mad man but the senior players like Carrick and Rooney wanted to sit back. We were set to press, our back four was very high up the pitch but Carrick, Rooney weren't putting any pressure on the ball and our wingers were very advanced. Was a disaster really.

exactly, as i replied to the above. But Neville singled out BS who was following instruction, while he gave the white Pele a free pass. Why was he so far ahead of the number 10? because he was doing his job for him

 

[bosnian_red]

But you can't really do the pressing alone when the rest of the team isn't because that's pointless and leaves us vulnerable as it did. Agree with people saying that he was naive with his pressing in the first half an hour or so because it was annoying to see him play #10 at times. But yea, shit he gets is just funny but that's to be expected as nobody would touch Rooney despite him being 10000 times worse and being shit this season, the criticism has to fall somewhere.

And obviously agree that him and Carrick can't play together because it's too slow, especially with useless captain in front of them.

I think the instructions were to press as we press every single game pretty much we never sit back and defend. Our team was like split in two minds, half of them pressing, while half of them with experience against arsenal deciding to sit back and defend against them to try and soak up pressure. Definitely think the instructions were to press though so that split of opinions made it a bit of a disaster.

 

[criticalanalysis]

You sir, are an idiot. i dont know where to start with this. The game plan was to press high, Neville even said seconds before kick off look how high united's line is from kick off, set up to press. WATCH IT AGAIN. What LVG said afterwards was he didnt want Arsenal having time on the ball letting them decide their passes. While the tactics were questionable he was doing exactly what was asked, wheras people like Rooney/Carrick went hiding, likely with years of beating Arsenal on the counter firmly etched in their heads

You need to read my post again, although I can see how you misread it. My criticism there was for Carrick (who I have a problem in general tbh i.e during a lot of his career here). However, it doesn't negate that Schweini's pressing was too gung-ho; not the first phase that possibly was by instruction but after going 1, 2 or 3-0 down. It's not his 'responsibility' to manage the team and give instructions but he should have shown a bit of composure even in that chaos.

 

[17 Van der Gouw]

I'm not sure how this happened, but he's my lowest rated player at 5.5 - not that far behind the Caf average.

I'm underwhelmed by what I've seen from him so far - other than the a few phases of some games where he seems to come alive and pull the strings. Hasn't been consistent enough for me.

 

[fcbforever]

I'm not sure how this happened, but he's my lowest rated player at 5.5 - not that far behind the Caf average.

I'm underwhelmed by what I've seen from him so far - other than the a few phases of some games where he seems to come alive and pull the strings. Hasn't been consistent enough for me.

He's like an old, not particularly good looking Italian sportscar with a rather fragile, ever worsening engine. It was great once and you love to own it, but you know it won't win you races anymore, even if it shows occasional glimpses of brilliance.

 

[Bastian]

The team hasn't really performed well this season so I'm not surprised that his rating isn't high. We've also struggled with the #10 role, and prior to acquiring Martial, with the #9 role. We are playing an AMC on the right wing, which has meant newboy Darmian has had to cover that whole side by himself. The team lacks balance.

Only a handful of players have had a decent season so far: de Gea beause he's world class and shows it time and again, Smalling as he's stepped up and is playing like a man possessed and Martial, who is the business. Everyone else has been mediocre (even Mata who's still got good stats).

I think Schweinsteiger has shown that he is far from being over the hill, he's got class Carrick can only dream of, and he's got experience no one else in the team has - a proven winner. Once Louis finally gets the balance of the team right, his class will show consistently.

 

[.Rossi]

 

[unchanged_lineup]

What a man http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...eets-with-family-of-berkeley-victim-1.2382940

 

[Joga Bonito]

He's like an old, not particularly good looking Italian sportscar with a rather fragile, ever worsening engine. It was great once and you love to own it, but you know it won't win you races anymore, even if it shows occasional glimpses of brilliance.

Yeah god knows what happened to German football that they have a "not particularly good looking Italian sportscar with a rather fragile, ever worsening engine" as their captain and their first team player. Sack Low, retire Schweinsteiger. Amirite?

 

[Blackwidow]

Yeah god knows what happened to German football that they have a "not particularly good looking Italian sportscar with a rather fragile, ever worsening engine" as their captain and their first team player. Sack Low, retire Schweinsteiger. Amirite?

It is stupid to blame a player when the whole system (or the match plan) has not been working. Schweinsteiger, when fit (and that he is right now), has a lot of abilities but weaknesses, too - like about every other player does. He never was the fastest and most dynamic player - that is why he was not very successful on the wing and his big career really started with the move in the center. Too me he does not look worse than he has two or three years ago - but the match plan, the working system, the performances of others are important, too.

That Bayern was not really working on keeping him (or that he was reluctant to stay) had a lot more to do with the system of Bayern and other players being more compatible to each other and his special role in Bayern as being undroppable (somewhat a similar role Rooney has at United). I am not sure if he would have wanted to leave if he would have still played the key role he has played in the team during the Heynckes period - but then Bayern would have been a lot more keen to keep him.

 

[criticalanalysis]

He's like an old, not particularly good looking Italian sportscar with a rather fragile, ever worsening engine. It was great once and you love to own it, but you know it won't win you races anymore, even if it shows occasional glimpses of brilliance.

I'm going to give you benefit of the doubt as you're a Bayern fan (and thus you've probably seen more games/minutes of his career than me) but he is undoubtedly Utd's most talented midfielder at this point of time (along with Herrera, who brings different qualities).

Bastian's got it right below

I think Schweinsteiger has shown that he is far from being over the hill, he's got class Carrick can only dream of, and he's got experience no one else in the team has - a proven winner. Once Louis finally gets the balance of the team right, his class will show consistently.

I hope not but it could be like an ADM thing. Crazy talented player that doesn't work for LVG (not Utd) but I don't think that's going to happen. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Carrick is a passenger and it doesn't matter who is playing (of a two) but we can't have a long term plan without a 3 man midfield (Rooney absolutely does not count).

 

[RedFish]

He seems like such a class act on and off the field. Couldn't be happier that we signed him.

 

[acnumber9]

exactly, as i replied to the above. But Neville singled out BS who was following instruction, while he gave the white Pele a free pass. Why was he so far ahead of the number 10? because he was doing his job for him

No he didn't. He specifically said that it should be Rooney who should be pressuring Cazorla and said that he should be doing better.

 

[Joga Bonito]

It is stupid to blame a player when the whole system (or the match plan) has not been working. Schweinsteiger, when fit (and that he is right now), has a lot of abilities but weaknesses, too - like about every other player does. He never was the fastest and most dynamic player - that is why he was not very successful on the wing and his big career really started with the move in the center. Too me he does not look worse than he has two or three years ago - but the match plan, the working system, the performances of others are important, too.

That Bayern was not really working on keeping him (or that he was reluctant to stay) had a lot more to do with the system of Bayern and other players being more compatible to each other and his special role in Bayern as being undroppable (somewhat a similar role Rooney has at United). I am not sure if he would have wanted to leave if he would have still played the key role he has played in the team during the Heynckes period - but then Bayern would have been a lot more keen to keep him.

It was tongue in cheek to fcbforever's post, which was nothing short of ridiculous as Schweinsteiger was playing really well after he took a few games to settle in, and all you have to see are some the post-match reactions on this very thread. He has controlled games for us and has been amongst our best players so far this season. And there you have fcbforever making him out to be a past it Steven Gerrard on the basis of 25 mins against Arsenal .

 

[Adam-Utd]

No he didn't. He specifically said that it should be Rooney who should be pressuring Cazorla and said that he should be doing better.

Which was incorrect. Wayne should be on coquelin, bastian on cazorla and carrick on ozil.

 

[acnumber9]

Which was incorrect. Wayne should be on coquelin, bastian on cazorla and carrick on ozil.

Why? Coquelin was no threat whatsoever and Cazorla was playing deep. The initial point being that Neville did point out that Rooney wasn't doing enough.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Why? Coquelin was no threat whatsoever and Cazorla was playing deep. The initial point being that Neville did point out that Rooney wasn't doing enough.

The 10 always marks the DM or deepest midfielder, cutting off the easy out ball from defence. You wouldn't want Rooney chasing Cazorla all the way back into our half as he will always be out of position for when we counter, and plus he would be knackered.

Carrick is the least mobile so generally sits infront of the back 4 screening, trying to mark Ozil out of the game when central.

The problem is Cazorla on form is very difficult to mark, his quick passing is as good as anybody's and his low gravity/agility allows him to wiggle out of tight marking well. The fact is as a team we didn't follow the same plan, and that means you end up leaving big gaps like we did.

 

[acnumber9]

The 10 always marks the DM or deepest midfielder, cutting off the easy out ball from defence. You wouldn't want Rooney chasing Cazorla all the way back into our half as he will always be out of position for when we counter, and plus he would be knackered.

Carrick is the least mobile so generally sits infront of the back 4 screening, trying to mark Ozil out of the game when central.

The problem is Cazorla on form is very difficult to mark, his quick passing is as good as anybody's and his low gravity/agility allows him to wiggle out of tight marking well. The fact is as a team we didn't follow the same plan, and that means you end up leaving big gaps like we did.

There's no point marking a player who offers no threat. We wouldn't mark John Obi Mikel. Cazorla was playing pretty deep and was the one causing us problems. What happened was Rooney neither offered attacking threat or helped stem the flow of Arsenal attacks. Something Neville pointed out more than once.

 

[Adam-Utd]

There's no point marking a player who offers no threat. We wouldn't mark John Obi Mikel. Cazorla was playing pretty deep and was the one causing us problems. What happened was Rooney neither offered attacking threat or helped stem the flow of Arsenal attacks. Something Neville pointed out more than once.

Sorry but that's just completely wrong. Just because he won't get the ball and smash it in from 30 yards doesn't mean you don't block off his passing lane and let him receive the ball easily. He is quite capable of carrying it up the pitch and then feeding an easy pass into 1 of the more attacking players.

By limiting the options out from the defence you can then force them into either hoofing the ball forward, or intercepting the ball high up. Just because Coquelin carry's little scoring threat of his own doesn't mean you don't mark him and just let him have all the time in the world.

 

[acnumber9]

Sorry but that's just completely wrong. Just because he won't get the ball and smash it in from 30 yards doesn't mean you don't block off his passing lane and let him receive the ball easily. He is quite capable of carrying it up the pitch and then feeding an easy pass into 1 of the more attacking players.

By limiting the options out from the defence you can then force them into either hoofing the ball forward, or intercepting the ball high up. Just because Coquelin carry's little scoring threat of his own doesn't mean you don't mark him and just let him have all the time in the world.

No team in the world marks a player as limited as Coquelin. If you want to mark players you do it with people that can hurt you.

 

[Adam-Utd]

No team in the world marks a player as limited as Coquelin. If you want to mark players you do it with people that can hurt you.

I am not saying Rooney is man marking him all over the pitch? but when Arsenals defence/goalkeeper has the ball he simply stands infront of Coquelin between the defence and him and blocks the pass into his feet. Can you not understand why that helps?

 

[fcbforever]

It was tongue in cheek to fcbforever's post, which was nothing short of ridiculous as Schweinsteiger was playing really well after he took a few games to settle in, and all you have to see are some the post-match reactions on this very thread. He has controlled games for us and has been amongst our best players so far this season. And there you have fcbforever making him out to be a past it Steven Gerrard on the basis of 25 mins against Arsenal .

I've never referreed to the Arsenal game. Just about his general situation.
And it's just true that while he is still capable of very good performances, he can't do it on a regular basis anymore as the center of a top team. He is, as someone pointed out, Germanys captain, yes. And he's a leader we probably need on the pitch sometimes.
But as someone else just said, I've seen a tad more minuted of him than you lot have.
I'm not saying he's past it, but that it will be difficult to reliably form a team around him.
I don't think he can offer that anymore and his first few month in Manchester seem to confirm that.
He should be an adition to a top team, not the center of one.

I love him to bits and from the very beginning of this move I feared that it would do him no good.
I can understand he wanted to experience something different, but it was maybe too late.
You know, I love the fact that everywhere outside of Germany Schweinsteiger seems to have gotten the recognition and standing he should've had in Germany from at least 2010 on. A lot of people still doubted him over here, till our Champions League win or even the World Cup win, because of his immaturity and his winger career prior to 2009.
I fear this move will shatter his legacy and reputation internationally, because that's the first time a lot of people really see him on a regular basis, expect him to do something great which he might not be able to deliever anymore. And it would really be a shame if the world at the end of his career would think: "yeah, good player, but couldn't make it at Manchester and in the Prem."
Because he could've done it, but a few years prior to his move.

 

[Bastian]

I've never referreed to the Arsenal game. Just about his general situation.
And it's just true that while he is still capable of very good performances, he can't do it on a regular basis anymore as the center of a top team. He is, as someone pointed out, Germanys captain, yes. And he's a leader we probably need on the pitch sometimes.
But as someone else just said, I've seen a tad more minuted of him than you lot have.
I'm not saying he's past it, but that it will be difficult to reliably form a team around him.
I don't think he can offer that anymore and his first few month in Manchester seem to confirm that.
He should be an adition to a top team, not the center of one.

I love him to bits and from the very beginning of this move I feared that it would do him no good.
I can understand he wanted to experience something different, but it was maybe too late.
You know, I love the fact that everywhere outside of Germany Schweinsteiger seems to have gotten the recognition and standing he should've had in Germany from at least 2010 on. A lot of people still doubted him over here, till our Champions League win or even the World Cup win, because of his immaturity and his winger career prior to 2009.
I fear this move will shatter his legacy and reputation internationally, because that's the first time a lot of people really see him on a regular basis, expect him to do something great which he might not be able to deliever anymore. And it would really be a shame if the world at the end of his career would think: "yeah, good player, but couldn't make it at Manchester and in the Prem."
Because he could've done it, but a few years prior to his move.

I actually think the move has raised his profile significantly. His problems do not stem from being past it (or like you say, no longer able to be an integral part of a team) but rather from being part of a team that is still in the making, where a manager has not found his first 11 nor even the system to get the best out of his team. Contrary to what you say, despite your confessed love for him and years of observing him, I think Schweinsteiger has already shown that he has got class United have not had in midfield since Scholes could still do the business. We are talking years, and for a top club that is kind of mad.

Isn't it better for him to be at a club that is just as big (or bigger), that has a much bigger profile (though the footie is not as good!) where he will play when fit, as oppose to be back in Munchen with a coach who doesn't really fancy him? In Manchester he is loved.

When Louis finally gets things going, Schweinsteiger will be at the heart of it.

 

[acnumber9]

I am not saying Rooney is man marking him all over the pitch? but when Arsenals defence/goalkeeper has the ball he simply stands infront of Coquelin between the defence and him and blocks the pass into his feet. Can you not understand why that helps?

Not really because they are always going to have a spare man who can do what you describe. What's stopping a defender from doing what you describe Coquelin could do?

 

[Joga Bonito]

I've never referreed to the Arsenal game. Just about his general situation.

I don't think he can offer that anymore and his first few month in Manchester seem to confirm that.

That is extremely harsh and he hasn't been as underwhelming as you are painting him out to be. Even in the early games when his match fitness wasn't up to the mark, you could see the sheer influence he wielded on the team when he was making 30 mins cameos. After he took some time to settle in, he was more or less at the heart of our play and is arguably our top 3-4 players thus far alongside Shaw, Smalling and Mata. Most certainly our most influential in terms of how pivotal he is when it comes to running the game and leaving his mark on the way the team functions.

He had a bad game against Arsenal, but it wasn't due to him being past it or being physically unable to cope with the game either. It was due to a tactical error/misunderstanding or maybe even overzealousness on his part, although that is highly unlikely given his experience. I'd say this though, he was probably the only player who showed any fire and willingness to get back into the game whilst other experienced leaders like Carrick and Rooney went into their shells and were overly passive for my liking. Which was why it irked me to no ends, when you were painting him out to be a physically or even mentally past it player. Just look at the monstrous 90 minute master-class against Liverpool, a display which some posters claimed was Roy Keane-esque. Or how the team capitulated when he was subbed off against Wolfsburg without someone to stem the tide and bring both composure and authority to midfield.

I fear this move will shatter his legacy and reputation internationally, because that's the first time a lot of people really see him on a regular basis, expect him to do something great which he might not be able to deliever anymore. And it would really be a shame if the world at the end of his career would think: "yeah, good player, but couldn't make it at Manchester and in the Prem."

Only fools would think that. He was arguably the world's best midfielder when Bayern were winning all those trophies and was absolutely magnificent for Germany and the heart beat of the team in WC 2010. That WC 2014 final display more or less confirmed his legacy as one of the greatest midfielders of all time. Also I think most United fans are realistic and aren't expecting the 2009-2012 version of Schweinsteiger to turn up here. We appreciate the sheer class he has and sometimes go overboard in praise of him but I honestly can't see his legacy being tarnished here, if that's what you are worried about.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

Schweinsteiger only had a bad game against Arsenal because of van Gaal's foolish tactics. Why did he have Bastian pressing so much? It's quite clear he doesn't have the pace and legs to get up and down the field. Schneiderlin would've been more suited to that role. Schweinsteiger has been excellent for us so far and he's one of the best midfielders in the league. A class act.

And it's funny how these people think Schweinsteiger is past it. Was only last year where the whole world were praising him for his heroic performances for Germany. He's not past it, far from it. He's an instrumental player when playing deep.

 

[fcbforever]

I actually think the move has raised his profile significantly. His problems do not stem from being past it (or like you say, no longer able to be an integral part of a team) but rather from being part of a team that is still in the making, where a manager has not found his first 11 nor even the system to get the best out of his team. Contrary to what you say, despite your confessed love for him and years of observing him, I think Schweinsteiger has already shown that he has got class United have not had in midfield since Scholes could still do the business. We are talking years, and for a top club that is kind of mad.

Isn't it better for him to be at a club that is just as big (or bigger), that has a much bigger profile (though the footie is not as good!) where he will play when fit, as oppose to be back in Munchen with a coach who doesn't really fancy him? In Manchester he is loved.

When Louis finally gets things going, Schweinsteiger will be at the heart of it.

To be honest, if we are talking about central midfielders here, a lot of players would've pulled that trick.
I do understand that a lot of people here really want him to succeed, but doubts should be allowed. He is very, very injury prone recently and on the wrong side of 30.

 

[Blackwidow]

@fcbforever

Are you Raimund Hinko?

 

[Adam-Utd]

Not really because they are always going to have a spare man who can do what you describe. What's stopping a defender from doing what you describe Coquelin could do?

It's a lot more risky for a central defender to carry the ball forward, risking leaving a big hole in defence and a defender 1v1 with a striker. Not to mention central defenders comfortable enough with the ball are very rare - hence the best are usually highly rated. It's exactly why he uses blind as a CB.

 

[Balu]

@fcbforever

Are you Raimund Hinko?

 

[Blackwidow]

Is injured and cannot play tonight.

 

[Piratesoup]

Schweinsteiger injured for an international match during the season? Stop the press!

 

[Kasper]

Jesus wept, I can't believe the twitter account of the German NT is called Die Mannschaft.