Ballon d'Or 2023 | Messi wins for 8th time

[SilentStrike]

Again a conspiracy theory. No one actually knows why the voting was reopened. FIFA officially said: It was due to lack of votes. The conspiracy theory started because Platini joked that FIFA did it to please Cristiano. So it was also a baseless myth based on Platini's joke. Just like FIFA rigged the 202w World Cup for Messi, because Van Gaal said so.

They reopened the votes after they were in and knew the results. How can you not see how messed up that is? The fact that you’re defending it and saying that because we don’t know the actual reason, so everything is fine is beyond stupid.

Do you really think they would officially declare they reopened the votes to change the outcome? Of course not, but you have a brain right? So you can tell that these actions can be done with only one purpose.

 

[Swoobs]

Messi winning is not scandalous or an injustice or a conspiracy. It's just voters caught being lazy, which they've always been.

The voters were probably not told about the timeframe. I am sure many who voted Messi voted him primarily because of the world cup win

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

The voters were probably not told about the timeframe. I am sure many who voted Messi voted him primarily because of the world cup win

It would be easy to see in the small print that the starting point was December and presume that included the World Cup and vote based on that, rather than based on the day after the World Cup. If you'd asked me off hand and I saw December 19th, I would have thought World Cup final and I watch a lot of football (was December 18th). Some people underestimate just how big the World Cup is.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Footballers, captains and coaches at the highest level dont watch football? The one sport they are passionate about. And they do have time. Being pro is probably more time consuming now, but they dont train all day long.

They don't watch enough football to make any kind of assessment of "who was the best player of the year" that depends entirely on their own judgment.

 

[Gehrman]

They don't watch enough football to make any kind of assessment of "who was the best player of the year" that depends entirely on their own judgment.

I don't think football journalists watch every match of every team who has a gem of a player. But anyway how much football pro footballers and coaches watch much vary a lot. I understand the ones who want to focus on something else but its also their passion.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

A lot of them watch the "main" stuff (big CL matches, international tournaments) which is why performance there always has a large influence on these type of awards.

 

[Krakenzero]

Good for Messi and the final nail in the coffin for the argument that FWP/Ballon d'Or actually matters.

Maybe now we can focus our attention in important things like wins, goals, trophies and... Oh, dribbles completed? Passes leading to a goal chance? Expected goals? Well, OK...

 

[Gehrman]

A lot of them watch the "main" stuff (big CL matches, international tournaments) which is why performance there always has a large influence on these type of awards.

I would admit have no idea how much football the players and coaches who had a vote watch matches on average, but bar the players without any real football iq, but people who watch football and actually played the game and understand the importance of the job every player has beyond Hollywood moments, i find it a bit hard to believe that we as fans can make judgement call but the pros at the highest lvl cant. But i still completely disagree with their votes on this one so there is that i suppose.

 

[heraklion]

Good for Messi and the final nail in the coffin for the argument that FWP/Ballon d'Or actually matters.

Maybe now we can focus our attention in important things like wins, goals, trophies and... Oh, dribbles completed? Passes leading to a goal chance? Expected goals? Well, OK...

Most football fans prefer to watch players like Maradona, Messi, Pele, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Cruyff and their mesmerizing magical plays regardless of whether they score or not rather than a tap-in merchant scoring nth useless tap-in. or regardless of whether they win or lose..

Gerd Muller would be a top-3 player if we ignored all these things that you highlighted like passes, dribbles etc. as he also completed football dominating every single tournament as a striker. Thanks God, as a football fan, I don't belong to that minority scoreboard group that have emerged with social media.

As the great Thomas Muller once said:

"Raw statistics, such as goals or titles, are undoubtedly an important factor. But in the end football is more than that. The magic also lies in aesthetics and elegance." "I once read that I have more goal contributions in goals than Zinedine Zidane, but I wasn't fooled. Because of the magic of the game and the aesthetics of football, magicians like Messi or Zidane are a completely different category to me."

www.twitter.com/BarcaUniversal/status/1747360061511389505

 

[Gehrman]

Most football fans prefer to watch players like Maradona, Messi, Pele, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Cruyff and their mesmerizing magical plays regardless of whether they score or not rather than a tap-in merchant scoring nth useless tap-in. or regardless of whether they win or lose..

Gerd Muller would be a top-3 player if we ignored all these things that you highlighted like passes, dribbles etc. as he also completed football dominating every single tournament as a striker. Thanks God, as a football fan, I don't belong to that minority scoreboard group that have emerged with social media.

As the great Thomas Muller once said:

"Raw statistics, such as goals or titles, are undoubtedly an important factor. But in the end football is more than that. The magic also lies in aesthetics and elegance." "I once read that I have more goal contributions in goals than Zinedine Zidane, but I wasn't fooled. Because of the magic of the game and the aesthetics of football, magicians like Messi or Zidane are a completely different category to me."

www.twitter.com/BarcaUniversal/status/1747360061511389505

Well he's right about Messi. Id still take Müller over Zidane though.

 

[Zehner]

Most football fans prefer to watch players like Maradona, Messi, Pele, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Cruyff and their mesmerizing magical plays regardless of whether they score or not rather than a tap-in merchant scoring nth useless tap-in. or regardless of whether they win or lose..

Gerd Muller would be a top-3 player if we ignored all these things that you highlighted like passes, dribbles etc. as he also completed football dominating every single tournament as a striker. Thanks God, as a football fan, I don't belong to that minority scoreboard group that have emerged with social media.

As the great Thomas Muller once said:

"Raw statistics, such as goals or titles, are undoubtedly an important factor. But in the end football is more than that. The magic also lies in aesthetics and elegance." "I once read that I have more goal contributions in goals than Zinedine Zidane, but I wasn't fooled. Because of the magic of the game and the aesthetics of football, magicians like Messi or Zidane are a completely different category to me."

www.twitter.com/BarcaUniversal/status/1747360061511389505

I think Müller is selling himself a bit short here. He's the prime example for how important game reading ability is. That's IMO the most underrated criterion. You'll find lots of players who are technically able to do what Messi or Zidane do/did, most of them not even professionals, but as Cruyff said, you play football with your head more than your legs Zidane said something similar as well about Messi. And Müller himself exceeded in that area.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I would admit have no idea how much football the players and coaches who had a vote watch matches on average, but bar the players without any real football iq, but people who watch football and actually played the game and understand the importance of the job every player has beyond Hollywood moments, i find it a bit hard to believe that we as fans can make judgement call but the pros at the highest lvl cant. But i still completely disagree with their votes on this one so there is that i suppose.

I'm sure they can make the judgment, they just didn't b/c they're lazy (or busy or whatever other reason).

Messi is such a great player, playing for such great teams, that you could have voted him as #1 every year since 2008 without even watching a game of football and nobody would have noticed. You could always retroactively justify it, with individual or team awards, sometimes more credibly than others.

But the justifications started to narrow when he moved to a weaker league, then showed signs of age. People were already taking these post-hoc justifications to the limit by mentioning the Finalissima. The death blow this year has been the very short window of elegibility.

Of course, people are watching more that zero games, but the point stil stands.

 

[Zehner]

I'm sure they can make the judgment, they just didn't b/c they're lazy (or busy or whatever other reason).

Messi is such a great player, playing for such great teams, that you could have voted him as #1 every year since 2008 without even watching a game of football and nobody would have noticed. You could always retroactively justify it, with individual or team awards, sometimes more credibly than others.

But the justifications started to narrow when he moved to a weaker league, then showed signs of age. People were already taking these post-hoc justifications to the limit by mentioning the Finalissima. The death blow this year has been the very short window of elegibility.

Of course, people are watching more that zero games, but the point stil stands.

I think the underlying issue is that the product isn't really what is printed on the label. It is described to be the prize for the best individual but one of if not the most important factor is team performances. That puts you between a rock and a hard place because at times you can't be consequent. When Messi scores 90 goals in a calendar year, you'd make a fool of yourself to deny him the prize even if he didn't win a major international title. And those issues predate the Messi/Ronaldo era, IMO. I mean, there's no way that Cannavaro was a better individual footballer than Ronaldinho in 2006 who placed fourth despite playing his arguably most iconic season. Nobody would in hindsight have Cannavaro higher in an all time list than Ronaldinho either. And I'm sure the farther you go back, the more cases like these you'll find.

But in the end, these awards are there to generate attention and for that they don't need to be consequent. As you said, if it was about the best footballer, you probably could have given all awards since 2009 to Messi but nobody wants that. People root for underdogs and journalists want rivalries to write stories about not boring storylines without twists and turns.

 

[giorno]

Footballers, captains and coaches at the highest level dont watch football? The one sport they are passionate about. And they do have time. Being pro is probably more time consuming now, but they dont train all day long.

Coaches do. Most players when asked tend to admit they don't. The rationale is they have enough of football what with their own training and games, they prefer to spend their free time doing something else/spend it with their families

 

[Gehrman]

Coaches do. Most players when asked tend to admit they don't. The rationale is they have enough of football what with their own training and games, they prefer to spend their free time doing something else/spend it with their families

There is a lot of pro footballers. I hardly know a source for the norm.

 

[giorno]

There is a lot of pro footballers. I hardly know a source for the norm.

I mean yeah, but if we're making assumptions I find it safer to extrapolate based on what the majority of those who were asked about it said.

 

[Gehrman]

 

[Fobal]

I think the underlying issue is that the product isn't really what is printed on the label. It is described to be the prize for the best individual but one of if not the most important factor is team performances. That puts you between a rock and a hard place because at times you can't be consequent. When Messi scores 90 goals in a calendar year, you'd make a fool of yourself to deny him the prize even if he didn't win a major international title. And those issues predate the Messi/Ronaldo era, IMO. I mean, there's no way that Cannavaro was a better individual footballer than Ronaldinho in 2006 who placed fourth despite playing his arguably most iconic season. Nobody would in hindsight have Cannavaro higher in an all time list than Ronaldinho either. And I'm sure the farther you go back, the more cases like these you'll find.

But in the end, these awards are there to generate attention and for that they don't need to be consequent. As you said, if it was about the best footballer, you probably could have given all awards since 2009 to Messi but nobody wants that. People root for underdogs and journalists want rivalries to write stories about not boring storylines without twists and turns.

Exactly, specially the last sentence.
Also the people in charge of giant clubs are extremely powerful and they (or at least try to) use the press for their own benefit or agenda

 

[Marvin look out]

Footballers, captains and coaches at the highest level dont watch football? The one sport they are passionate about. And they do have time. Being pro is probably more time consuming now, but they dont train all day long.

They watch far less games than sports journalists whose job is to watch a lot of football games and then write articles and/or talk about these games. I have more confidence in journalists than in footballers when it comes to these awards. I mean there are no serious arguments to give it to Messi for 2023. It should have gone to one of the three best performing City players from january to august.

 

[RedRonaldo]

People need to get over with the fancy dribbles or flicks and tricks as being main criteria to assess/define what a great player is. A lot of freestyle footballers who couldn’t cut it in professional level are ridiculously good at those. I have seen them making top professional players like Neymar and De Bruyne looking totally clueless when they are having skills matchup with them.

I understand fans tend to romanticize beautiful football which has traditionally been displayed by art of attacking play with sublime skills.

But bottom line is, like any other main sports out there, football has always been competitive sports, where great player should always be defined by the ones who has been the most competitive in the game, rather than just better at dribbling.

 

[Rojow]

What?

 

[JogaBonitoRooney]

People need to get over with the fancy dribbles or flicks and tricks as being main criteria to assess/define what a great player is. A lot of freestyle footballers who couldn’t cut it in professional level are ridiculously good at those. I have seen them making top professional players like Neymar and De Bruyne looking totally clueless when they are having skills matchup with them.

I understand fans tend to romanticize beautiful football which has traditionally been displayed by art of attacking play with sublime skills.

But bottom line is, like any other main sports out there, football has always been competitive sports, where great player should always be defined by the ones who has been the most competitive in the game, rather than just better at dribbling.

"Most competitive in the game game"... all that and you leave with that ambiguity. What does that mean?

Which players are you even talking about? Jay jay Okocha, Taarabt, Ben Arfa for example weren't ever considered among the best even though they had awesome freestyle skills.

Neymar, Ronaldhino, Messi, De Bruyne (who isn't that "tricky"), Maradona have strong numbers as well as fancy skills.

Are you mad Iniesta, Zidane, Modric are rated high because their stats aren't the best for offensive midfielders? Most people who have seen them play see the world class creativity they provide even if it isn't direct goals or assists.

Not sure which fancy skillful player is somehow rated high for being very fancy but isn't actually that good player with good G/A stats.

 

[RedRonaldo]

"Most competitive in the game game"... all that and you leave with that ambiguity. What does that mean?

Which players are you even talking about? Jay jay Okocha, Taarabt, Ben Arfa for example weren't ever considered among the best even though they had awesome freestyle skills.

Neymar, Ronaldhino, Messi, De Bruyne (who isn't that "tricky"), Maradona have strong numbers as well as fancy skills.

Are you mad Iniesta, Zidane, Modric are rated high because their stats aren't the best for offensive midfielders? Most people who have seen them play see the world class creativity they provide even if it isn't direct goals or assists.

Not sure which fancy skillful player is somehow rated high for being very fancy but isn't actually that good player with good G/A stats.

You have been assuming too much here. I am just saying what I’ve said. Being the best in game requires the player to be the most competitive in the game, instead of just stood out in 1 or 2 aspect which leads to nothing significant in helping his team playing better football and achieving better results.

Which also means, having the most impact in deciding the outcomes of the games. This doesn’t only applies to forward player scoring goals and making assists and winning trophies. When Zidane lead his team to winning major trophies by orchestrating midfield play which allows his team playing better football to beat opponents, and winning WC or CL, those also counts.

If you take a look at other sports, the best in their respective sports are always the ones who are the most competitive in their game - winning most trophies, most majors, most MVPs, highest score, highest assists etc. So on football terms, if a midfielder who has most trophies, majors and MVPs etc, regardless of goals or assists or dibbling stats, of course he should be considered best in the game too.

Examples:

Basketball:
Michael Jordan
Lebron James
- most champion, most MVP, best stats

Tennis:
Big 3
- most grand slams, most titles

Golf:
Tiger Woods
Jack Nicholas
- most majors, most tour wins

People just don’t go with best swing in golf or best dunk in basketball to decide what a great player is about.

But somehow in football there is strange notion that you can’t be best player in the game unless you are also best in dribbling or playmaking.

 

[JogaBonitoRooney]

You have been assuming too much here. I am just saying what I’ve said. Being the best in game requires the player to be the most competitive in the game, instead of just stood out in 1 or 2 aspect which leads to nothing significant in helping his team playing better football and achieving better results.

Which also means, having the most impact in deciding the outcomes of the games. This doesn’t only applies to forward player scoring goals and making assists and winning trophies. When Zidane lead his team to winning major trophies by orchestrating midfield play which allows his team playing better football to beat opponents, and winning WC or CL, those also counts.

If you take a look at other sports, the best in their respective sports are always the ones who are the most competitive in their game - winning most trophies, most majors, most MVPs, highest score, highest assists etc. So on football terms, if a midfielder who has most trophies, majors and MVPs etc, regardless of goals or assists or dibbling stats, of course he should be considered best in the game too.

Examples:

Basketball:
Michael Jordan
Lebron James
- most champion, most MVP, best stats

Tennis:
Big 3
- most grand slams, most titles

Golf:
Tiger Woods
Jack Nicholas
- most majors, most tour wins

People just don’t go with best swing in golf or best dunk in basketball to decide what a great player is about.

But somehow in football there is strange notion that you can’t be best player in the game unless you are also best in dribbling or playmaking.

You said people need to get over emphasising tricks, skills, dribbles to rate great players. I'm saying there's really no player out there, current or past, that gets rated great purely off their ball skills.

 

[heraklion]

But somehow in football there is strange notion that you can’t be best player in the game unless you are also best in dribbling or playmaking.

It's your strange notion to downplay playmaking, dribbling and associated creativity since your idol is useless in these areas. I know, you know, everybody knows had your useless idol been a GOAT level player in these areas like Pele, Messi, Maradona, Platini, Zidane, Cruyff etc., you will be the one posting regularly about the importance of playmaking, dribbling. As if those skills are also separated from trophies, all those above players won almost everything at every level by "dominating" games. "Dominating" games doesn't mean scoring the nth tap-in after ghosting for 80 minutes. And those names above dominated games regularly thanks partly to those extraordinary playmaking, dribbling skills. These skills are what defines those players.

Your strange criteria would make Gerd Muller an undisputed GOAT who isn't even a top-10 player because he won more than anybody else, almost on the same level as Messi and Pele. Gerd Muller also completed football and in the most impressive fashion as a striker, Ronaldo doesn't even come close to him, yet Muller is ranked outside top-10. Also, with your criteria, there's no way Beckenbauer and Cruyff would win more Ballon D'ors than him.

Even your basketball examples make zero sense because Jordan and Lebron are also among the most talented ever in their sports dominating unlike any other player, they also play in a mesmerizing manner particularly Jordan. Lebron only won the top-scorer award once in NBA, most assists only once, nobody cares, he is still a top-2 player because of his extraordinary playmaking skills and all-around game. Jordan, Lebron etc. "dominate" games with their skills.

Never forget the word "domination" in football or any sports.. see how Cruyff, Messi, Pele, Maradona, Xavi, Modric, Zidane, Ronaldinho, KDB etc. dominate games as the most dominant players ever, how they use their dribbling, passing, playmaking skills as their tools to "dominate" the game.

You'll never understand domination by watching Haaland type players and their nth tap-in. For domination in City games, follow KDB. That's the one who dominates things there "surprisingly" with his amazing playmaking skills.

 

[RedRonaldo]

You said people need to get over emphasising tricks, skills, dribbles to rate great players. I'm saying there's really no player out there, current or past, that gets rated great purely off their ball skills.

Sure, but that’s not my point. I just felt some people has been underestimating players like Haaland for being rated as best player currently or worthiness of winning these awards. If it’s on any other sports he would be regarded as the best no doubts, as he has proven to be most competitive player in football during the most recent year.

 

[heraklion]

Sure, but that’s not my point. I just felt some people has been underestimating players like Haaland for being rated as best player currently or worthiness of winning these awards. If it’s on any other sports he would be regarded as the best no doubts, as he has proven to be most competitive player in most recent year.

All wrong.
Care to explain how Lebron is widely regarded as a top-2 player winning top-scorer award only once.
Based on your logic, in basketball, whoever scores most would be regarded as the best. There were other players who won more than Jordan, who scored more, who assisted more etc. yet Jordan is no.1. similar for Lebron.

Your competitive definition in football = most tap-ins. Haaland "the most competitive player"?
How can you be the most competitive player scoring 0 goals in 8 semi-final & finals when your team scored 15 goals? and you're the striker of this team yet scored 0 in the most important games with the lowest ratings by far. Is this competitive for you?

Jordan is Jordan because of his elevated performance when it comes to the biggest stage. These guys overperform when the pressure goes up not ghost, that's part of the reason why they're the GOATs. same for any other legend in other sports, like Djokovic, Nadal in tennis.

I have never seen a player in any sports being called the most competitive or the best by ghosting that regularly in the biggest games especially with those one-dimensional limited skills.

 

[YikesSchmeics]

So juvenile, and a perfect summary of why the whole debate is so tiresome.

 

[RedRonaldo]

It's your strange notion to downplay playmaking, dribbling and associated creativity since your idol is useless in these areas. I know, you know, everybody knows had your useless idol been a GOAT level player in these areas like Pele, Messi, Maradona, Platini, Zidane, Cruyff etc., you will be the one posting regularly about the importance of playmaking, dribbling. As if those skills are also separated from trophies, all those above players won almost everything at every level by "dominating" games. "Dominating" games doesn't mean scoring the nth tap-in after ghosting for 80 minutes. And those names above dominated games regularly thanks partly to those extraordinary playmaking, dribbling skills. These skills are what defines those players.

Your strange criteria would make Gerd Muller an undisputed GOAT who isn't even a top-10 player because he won more than anybody else, almost on the same level as Messi and Pele. Gerd Muller also completed football and in the most impressive fashion as a striker, Ronaldo doesn't even come close to him, yet Muller is ranked outside top-10. Also, with your criteria, there's no way Beckenbauer and Cruyff would win more Ballon D'ors than him.

Even your basketball examples make zero sense because Jordan and Lebron are also among the most talented ever in their sports dominating unlike any other player, they also play in a mesmerizing manner particularly Jordan. Lebron only won the top-scorer award once in NBA, most assists only once, nobody cares, he is still a top-2 player because of his extraordinary playmaking skills and all-around game. Jordan, Lebron etc. "dominate" games with their skills.

Never forget the word "domination" in football or any sports.. see how Cruyff, Messi, Pele, Maradona, Xavi, Modric, Zidane, Ronaldinho, KDB etc. dominate games as the most dominant players ever, how they use their dribbling, passing, playmaking skills as their tools to "dominate" the game.

You'll never understand domination by watching Haaland type players and their nth tap-in. For domination in City games, follow KDB. That's the one who dominates things there "surprisingly" with his amazing playmaking skills.

I think you got it wrong, that’s not what I am talking about at all. For example, Muller doesn’t have 3 WC nor 8 Ballon D’or nor 5 CL, and not even most goals or assists in football history in any particular period, I don’t know what matrix leads you to think he is GOAT.

To make it simple for you, just take a look at any other competitive sports on how they regarded their best player. It’s always on the most competitive aspects first and foremost, with everything else comes second or third afterwards.

Most competitive aspects such as:

Most champions/majors(in basketball/golf/tennis)
- equivalent to most WC/CL etc in football

Most titles (in tennis/golf)
- equivalent to most league titles/cup trophies etc in football

Most MVPs (in basketball)
- equivalent to most Ballon D’ors or POTY awards or golden boots etc in football

Best stats (in basketball/baseball)
- equivalent to most goals or assists etc in football

If a player stands out in 2 or more aspects of the above, usually would be in contender of GOAT in any competitive sports out there.

 

[RedRonaldo]

All wrong.
Care to explain how Lebron is widely regarded as a top-2 player winning top-scorer award only once.
Based on your logic, in basketball, whoever scores most would be regarded as the best. There were other players who won more than Jordan, who scored more, who assisted more etc. yet Jordan is no.1. similar for Lebron.

Your competitive definition in football = most tap-ins. Haaland "the most competitive player"?
How can you be the most competitive player scoring 0 goals in 8 semi-final & finals when your team scored 15 goals? and you're the striker of this team yet scored 0 in the most important games with the lowest ratings by far. Is this competitive for you?

Jordan is Jordan because of his elevated performance when it comes to the biggest stage. These guys overperform when the pressure goes up not ghost, that's part of the reason why they're the GOATs. same for any other legend in other sports, like Djokovic, Nadal in tennis.

I have never seen a player in any sports being called the most competitive or the best by ghosting that regularly in the biggest games especially with those one-dimensional limited skills.

Just step outside from your own world and take a look at the world outside, or just goggle it or something. Any other sports has long debate of their GOAT mostly based on most major or most MVP or best stats in their respective sports.

I am no basketball fans, but for Lebron case I think it’s been well covered on media that he is NBA all time scoring leader, and has one of best ever stats in their sports. He also have won 4 MVPs (vs Jordan 5), and been featured most in all star games (19th times). These are all competitive aspects of the game which are widely regarded as GOAT worthy.

 

[Zehner]

I think you got it wrong, that’s not what I am talking about at all. For example, Muller doesn’t have 3 WC nor 8 Ballon D’or nor 5 CL, and not even most goals or assists in football history in any particular period, I don’t know what matrix leads you to think he is GOAT.

To make it simple for you, just take a look at any other competitive sports on how they regarded their best player. It’s always on the most competitive aspects first and foremost, with everything else comes second or third afterwards.

Most competitive aspects such as:

Most champions/majors(in basketball/golf/tennis)
- equivalent to most WC/CL etc in football

Most titles (in tennis/golf)
- equivalent to most league titles/cup trophies etc in football

Most MVPs (in basketball)
- equivalent to most Ballon D’ors or POTY awards or golden boots etc in football

Best stats (in basketball/baseball)
- equivalent to most goals or assists etc in football

If a player stands out in 2 or more aspects of the above, usually would be in contender of GOAT in any competitive sports out there.

In team sports? Most definitely not.There are players with more NBA rings than Michael Jordan and/or more NBA MVPs. And comparing scoring stats in basketball with goals scored in football makes no sense at all since most a much, much larger proportion of good plays in basketball are captured in points scored than good plays in football in goals scored. It is a different topic when it comes to solo sports like tennis, darts or golf ut football isn't.

While I thin @heraklion is totally over the top and in no position to criticize you for it but I tend to agree with him that you only value those things so highly because of Cristiano. Because the quoted post was devoid of any logic and I think you know that.

 

[heraklion]

Just step outside from your own world and take a look at the world outside, or just goggle it or something. Any other sports has long debate of their GOAT mostly based on most major or most MVP or best stats in their respective sports.

I am no basketball fans, but for Lebron case I think it’s been well covered on media that he is NBA all time scoring leader, and has one of best ever stats in their sports. He also have won 4 MVPs (vs Jordan 5), and been featured most in all star games (19th times). These are all competitive aspects of the game which are widely regarded as GOAT worthy.

You're contradicting yourself as usual in the bolded part.

As if Pele, Cruyff, Maradona, Messi, Platini, KDB, Xavi, Zidane etc. do not have insane stats, trophies, awards. You do not seem to be able to process that they won these awards due to their out of this world playmaking, dribbling, passing skills, creativity etc. The problem is , in your world, stats=tap-ins because that fits your agenda to hype up Haaland (and of course indirectly hyping up your idol) You saw the other thread "top-10 players of all time", see where people rank your Ronaldo, tier-2 player for most. He can score another 1000 tap-ins in Saudi and against Faroe along with Haaland, nobody cares when it comes to these rankings.

The statement that "Haaland is the most competitive and best player" alone kills your whole credibility which was close to zero anyway on this topic. You are calling a striker with 0 goals in 8 semis & finals in a treble winning season the most competitive and the best when all these players achieved their status with what they did in the biggest stage, carried their teams to victories unlike Haaland the ghost who was bailed out each game. Imagine Jordan ghosting in playoffs, being bailed out by his teammates on a regular basis, and people calling him"the best" "the most competitive".

You were comparing Mbappe and Ronaldo NT record on the goals in the Euro Qualifiers based on the goals your idol scored against Luxembourg, Liechtenstein etc. in Euro qualifiers when Mbappe at 24 destroys your idol's whole NT record with his single game performance in the WC final alone (even when ignoring Mbappe's impressive overall WC performances in 2018 and 2022). Not everything in football is about nth tap-in scored against Faroe, Andorra, Al Kabab etc. You don't seem to understand why people aren't impressed by the "nth tap-in" and continue posting along the same lines all the time despite many people trying to help you understand football and what's valued.


As for, Muller. Muller doesn't have 5 Ballon D'ors because there was no social media back then. Send Haaland to 1970s, he is not winning any Ballon D'or over Cruyff or Beckenbauer. That's the thing this is the perfect era for statpadders due to social media hype. There's no way Beckenbauer, or Cruyff winning those Ballon D'ors over Haaland the tap-in merchant in this era without controversy.

Gerd Muller (mind you Bundesliga was a top-2 league in Muller's era)
4-time CL top goalscorer
2 times Golden Shoe
1970 WC top goalscorer with 10 goals
1972 Euros scored 2 goals each in the Euros semi-final & finals won the Euros for Germany
1974 WC scored the winning goal in the WC final
7 times Bundesliga top goal-scorer
all-time goalscoring record in WC (between 74-2006)
most goals in Bundesliga ever
most Bundesliga goals in a sesason (between 72-2021)
most goals in a calendar year (between 72-2012)
68 goals in 62 games with NT, 1.1 per game , double of Ronaldo's

With these stats, Muller would have easily 4-5 Ballon D'ors in this era.

 

[Zehner]

You're contradicting yourself as usual in the bolded part.

As if Pele, Cruyff, Maradona, Messi, Platini, KDB, Xavi, Zidane etc. do not have insane stats, trophies, awards. You do not seem to be able to process that they won these awards due to their out of this world playmaking, dribbling, passing skills, creativity etc. The problem is , in your world, stats=tap-ins because that fits your agenda to hype up Haaland (and of course indirectly hyping up your idol) You saw the other thread "top-10 players of all time", see where people rank your Ronaldo, tier-2 player for most. He can score another 1000 tap-ins in Saudi and against Faroe along with Haaland, nobody cares when it comes to these rankings.

The statement that "Haaland is the most competitive and best player" alone kills your whole credibility which was close to zero anyway on this topic. You are calling a striker with 0 goals in 8 semis & finals in a treble winning season the most competitive and the best when all these players achieved their status with what they did in the biggest stage, carried their teams to victories unlike Haaland the ghost who was bailed out each game. Imagine Jordan ghosting in playoffs, being bailed out by his teammates on a regular basis, and people calling him"the best" "the most competitive".

You were comparing Mbappe and Ronaldo NT record on the goals in the Euro Qualifiers based on the goals your idol scored against Luxembourg, Liechtenstein etc. in Euro qualifiers when Mbappe at 24 destroys your idol's whole NT record with his single game performance in the WC final alone (even when ignoring Mbappe's impressive overall WC performances in 2018 and 2022). Not everything in football is about nth tap-in scored against Faroe, Andorra, Al Kabab etc. You don't seem to understand why people aren't impressed by the "nth tap-in" and continue posting along the same lines all the time despite many people trying to help you understand football and what's valued.


As for, Muller. Muller doesn't have 5 Ballon D'ors because there was no social media back then. Send Haaland to 1970s, he is not winning any Ballon D'or over Cruyff or Beckenbauer. That's the thing this is the perfect era for statpadders due to social media hype. There's no way Beckenbauer, or Cruyff winning those Ballon D'ors over Haaland the tap-in merchant in this era without controversy.

Gerd Muller
4-time CL top goalscorer
2 times Golden Shoe
1970 WC top goalscorer with 10 goals
1972 scored 2 goals each in the Euros semi-final & finals won the Euros for Germany
1974 scored the winning goal in the WC final
7 times Bundesliga top goal-scorer
all-time goalscoring record in WC (between 74-2006)
most goals in Bundesliga ever
most Bundesliga goals in a sesason (between 72-2021)
most goals in a calendar year (between 72-2012)
68 goals in 62 games with NT, 1.1 per game , double of Ronaldo's

With these stats, Muller would have easily 4-5 Ballon D'ors in this era.

No offense, I even agree with your takes for the most part, but you deliber them so tribal that it rather makes me question my own views instead of feeling confirmed Passion is good but you come across as aggressive and totally subjective. As the one you are arguing with, I wouldn't think that you even consider the arguments I presented you, not even for a second.

 

[heraklion]

No offense, I even agree with your takes for the most part, but you deliber them so tribal that it rather makes me question my own views instead of feeling confirmed Passion is good but you come across as aggressive and totally subjective. As the one you are arguing with, I wouldn't think that you even consider the arguments I presented you, not even for a second.

You might be right.

It's probably the effect of hearing the same boring views nth time from the same posters. These things have been settled in football world for a long time, what's valued most and what makes fans excited most, kind of universal. There's a reason why there's a consensus on why Maradona, Messi, Pele etc. are seen as the best. And when you see a post like that, another desperate forced attempt, you feel like "Again?".

 

[RedRonaldo]

In team sports? Most definitely not.There are players with more NBA rings than Michael Jordan and/or more NBA MVPs. And comparing scoring stats in basketball with goals scored in football makes no sense at all since most a much, much larger proportion of good plays in basketball are captured in points scored than good plays in football in goals scored. It is a different topic when it comes to solo sports like tennis, darts or golf ut football isn't.

While I thin @heraklion is totally over the top and in no position to criticize you for it but I tend to agree with him that you only value those things so highly because of Cristiano. Because the quoted post was devoid of any logic and I think you know that.

That’s insane and totally over the top response from yours. Not even once did I mentioned Cristiano here, I think it’s rather a case of you overreacting here, and I am not going to speculate your reasoning because it seems there isn’t any.

Anyway I am just talking about competitive sports in general, but I guess it’s perfectly fine if you don’t follow any other sports out there.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Good for Messi and the final nail in the coffin for the argument that FWP/Ballon d'Or actually matters.

Maybe now we can focus our attention in important things like wins, goals, trophies and... Oh, dribbles completed? Passes leading to a goal chance? Expected goals? Well, OK...

Add to that, most key passes, most man of the match awards, most assists...

 

[RedRonaldo]

You're contradicting yourself as usual in the bolded part.

As if Pele, Cruyff, Maradona, Messi, Platini, KDB, Xavi, Zidane etc. do not have insane stats, trophies, awards. You do not seem to be able to process that they won these awards due to their out of this world playmaking, dribbling, passing skills, creativity etc. The problem is , in your world, stats=tap-ins because that fits your agenda to hype up Haaland (and of course indirectly hyping up your idol) You saw the other thread "top-10 players of all time", see where people rank your Ronaldo, tier-2 player for most. He can score another 1000 tap-ins in Saudi and against Faroe along with Haaland, nobody cares when it comes to these rankings.

The statement that "Haaland is the most competitive and best player" alone kills your whole credibility which was close to zero anyway on this topic. You are calling a striker with 0 goals in 8 semis & finals in a treble winning season the most competitive and the best when all these players achieved their status with what they did in the biggest stage, carried their teams to victories unlike Haaland the ghost who was bailed out each game. Imagine Jordan ghosting in playoffs, being bailed out by his teammates on a regular basis, and people calling him"the best" "the most competitive".

You were comparing Mbappe and Ronaldo NT record on the goals in the Euro Qualifiers based on the goals your idol scored against Luxembourg, Liechtenstein etc. in Euro qualifiers when Mbappe at 24 destroys your idol's whole NT record with his single game performance in the WC final alone (even when ignoring Mbappe's impressive overall WC performances in 2018 and 2022). Not everything in football is about nth tap-in scored against Faroe, Andorra, Al Kabab etc. You don't seem to understand why people aren't impressed by the "nth tap-in" and continue posting along the same lines all the time despite many people trying to help you understand football and what's valued.


As for, Muller. Muller doesn't have 5 Ballon D'ors because there was no social media back then. Send Haaland to 1970s, he is not winning any Ballon D'or over Cruyff or Beckenbauer. That's the thing this is the perfect era for statpadders due to social media hype. There's no way Beckenbauer, or Cruyff winning those Ballon D'ors over Haaland the tap-in merchant in this era without controversy.

Gerd Muller (mind you Bundesliga was a top-2 league in Muller's era)
4-time CL top goalscorer
2 times Golden Shoe
1970 WC top goalscorer with 10 goals
1972 Euros scored 2 goals each in the Euros semi-final & finals won the Euros for Germany
1974 WC scored the winning goal in the WC final
7 times Bundesliga top goal-scorer
all-time goalscoring record in WC (between 74-2006)
most goals in Bundesliga ever
most Bundesliga goals in a sesason (between 72-2021)
most goals in a calendar year (between 72-2012)
68 goals in 62 games with NT, 1.1 per game , double of Ronaldo's

With these stats, Muller would have easily 4-5 Ballon D'ors in this era.

Muller wasn’t Ballon D’or regulars because he has been overshined/out-performed by other top players in his era (ie Cruyff, Beckenbauer). It’s crazy you blamed all these on social media.

An no, what you’ve presented here for him only makes him one of great goalscorer of our time and great player from his era. Wasn’t enough to guarantee him up there with other GOAT.

 

[Zehner]

You might be right.

It's probably the effect of hearing the same boring views nth time from the same posters. These things have been settled in football world for a long time, what's valued most and what makes fans excited most, kind of universal. There's a reason why there's a consensus on why Maradona, Messi, Pele etc. are seen as the best. And when you see a post like that, another desperate forced attempt, you feel like "Again?".

I can relate to that but getting worked up doesn't help, it only makes you less convincing for third parties reading your posts if you are getting carried away so that you're actually the opposite of what you intended, IMO

That’s insane and totally over the top response from yours. Not even once did I mentioned Cristiano here, I think it’s rather a case of you overreacting here, and I am not going to speculate your reasoning because it seems there isn’t any.

Anyway I am just talking about competitive sports in general, but I guess it’s perfectly fine if you don’t follow any other sports out there.

Oh, I'm watching lots of different sports And what you say simply isn't true. LeBron for instance gets praised a lot for his game reading ability and high basketball IQ. On the conrary, LeBron currently sits at 7th in terms of career PPG, behind Embiid and Durant who played in the same era but aren't considered on the same level as he was. One way or another, in any sport a look at the stats is only part of the truth, in some sports that are easily quantifiable a bigger part and in others a lesser part.

And football is probably the one big sport that is most difficult to quantify. That the statistics you presented are pretty bad at predicting the most valuable player is by the way backed up by the fact that for the most occasions in history, the golden boot and the golden ball went to different players. And the one who is responsible for the most incidences of those two prizes going to the same person is Lionel Messi.

On a sidenote, I shouldn't have implied you are saying this only because of Ronaldo, was unnecessarily personal

 

[RedRonaldo]

Oh, I'm watching lots of different sports And what you say simply isn't true. LeBron for instance gets praised a lot for his game reading ability and high basketball IQ. On the conrary, LeBron currently sits at 7th in terms of career PPG, behind Embiid and Durant who played in the same era but aren't considered on the same level as he was. One way or another, in any sport a look at the stats is only part of the truth, in some sports that are easily quantifiable a bigger part and in others a lesser part.

And football is probably the one big sport that is most difficult to quantify. That the statistics you presented are pretty bad at predicting the most valuable player is by the way backed up by the fact that for the most occasions in history, the golden boot and the golden ball went to different players. And the one who is responsible for the most incidences of those two prizes going to the same person is Lionel Messi.

Sure Lebron was a great player regardless of all these. But he has only been in serious GOAT contention when he start reaching all those crazy milestone (ie NBA all time scoring leader, 4 times MVP). Its not something I’ve made up here as it has been widely discussed in public, I don’t know why you have to act so much in denial for those things you don’t agree with.

Google GOAT in basketball and those are the criteria most people are discussing all the time.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Muller wasn’t Ballon D’or regulars because he has been overshined/out-performed by other top players in his era (ie Cruyff, Beckenbuar). It’s crazy you blamed all these on social media.

An no, what you’ve presented here for him only makes him one of great goalscorer of our time and great player from his era. Wasn’t enough to guarantee him up there with GOAT.

Muller is one of the greatest goal scorers of all time and any era.

He has goals in the WC final and European Championship final with Germany.

He won 3 European Cup/CL trophies in a row from 1973 - 1976. He scored in 2 of the 3 finals and was the top scorer in 2 of the 3 tournaments and was joint second in the third tournament.

Between 1974 and 2006, he was the outright top scorer in World Cup history with 14 goals. Scoring in a final and scoring 2 in a semi final.

He has 568 goals and 102 assists in 611 games at club level.

He has 68 goals in 62 games for Germany.

Gerd Muller was the ultimate scoring machine, which is funny because that is what you seem to mainly judge Ronaldo on for why he is the GOAT.

But Ronaldo didn't even score in a WC knock out round.

If someone deems Gerd Muller as being at greatest of all time level and even number 1 then they actually have a pretty solid argument tbh.