Ballon d'Or 2023 | Messi wins for 8th time

adexkola said:
Draft forum kings: unite and disprove:D
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Eddy is one of us now. :smirk:

Eddy_JukeZ said:
I don't think it's that outlandish to suggest it.

You could argue it. If not top 3, I think top 5 is fairly appropriate. Hard to think of 5 WC campaigns that were clearly better.
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I thought it was the one World Cup of his five where, more than just his brilliance on the ball, his leadership and ability to handle pressure truly shone through. Stepping up when Argentina needed him, especially at the business end of the tournament, and having the cojones to score 5 penalties demonstrated that. In his general play he had a good World Cup, but it wasn't peak Messi in his ball-carrying, playmaking or his ability to influence games for the bulk of the 90 minutes. Ronaldo in 2002 was quite similar as a redemptive story where an all-timer - still ruthless but not quite the force of old - was decisive in the semi-final and final to get his country over the line and clinch the trophy his career deserved. Some shades too of Pele in 1970, although I think he was closer to his peak and impacted more games in open play.

These three are miles ahead for me in a top tier, each at the peak of their powers dominating game after game.
  • Maradona in 1986
  • Garrincha in 1962
  • Cruyff in 1974
I would place these 5 in a second higher tier as well:
  • Pele in 1958 - 6 goals in the knockout stages with loads of individual brilliance that nobody could live with.

  • Eusebio in 1966 - one-man attack who regularly got the ball in the middle of the park yet still posed a frequent goal threat through his power and ball-carrying, scoring 9 altogether.

  • Pele in 1970 - similar in his orchestrating of the attack, assuming a more creative role with 5 assists.

  • Matthaus in 1990 - the gold standard box-to-box midfield performance - 4 goals in total, 2 wonder-strikes against Yugoslavia, dominant against the Dutch, and did all the necessary defensive work to quell Gascoigne and Maradona in the semi-final and final.

  • Baggio in 1994 - as clutch as it gets. Scored 5 out of Italy's 6 goals in the knockout stages - the last-minute equaliser when about to crash out against Nigeria in the second round, a last-minute winner against Spain in the quarter-finals, and two solo efforts to squeeze through the semi-final.

  • Ronaldo in 1998 - no trophy in the end, but a superstar at the peak of his powers and just electric every time he got the ball.
It's hard to compare with defenders, so feel free to discount them, but these 8 were colossal: Moore in 1966 and 1970, Beckenbauer and Figueroa in 1974, Passarella in 1978, Scirea in 1982, Baresi in 1990, Thuram in 1998, and Cannavaro in 2006.

I'd put Messi's tournament somewhere in the next tier from the TV era, including but not limited to:

[spoiler-Third Tier]
Kocsis 1954, Kopa / Didi 1958, Charlton 1966, Muller 1970 / 74, Kempes 1978, Zico / Falcao / Conti 1982, Maradona / Gazza / Brehme 1990, Romario / Hagi / Stoichkov 1994, Davids 1998, Ronaldo / Rivaldo / Ballack 2002, Pirlo / Zidane 2006, Xavi / Villa / Forlan 2010, Robben / Messi / Rodriguez 2014, Mbappe 2022.[/spoiler]

Anyone can weight those rankings by filtering out the non-winners, by focusing more on the one-man bands, or whatever. But they only way he gets near the top of my list is by placing extra value on the wider narrative - in what it means for his legacy - in securing his spot at the summit of the sport.
 
What on earth did Mo Salah do to get in the Ballon d'or nominees? His team was poor last season and achieved absolutley nothing accept the prestigous 7-Up cup.
 
It'll be Messi. Legendary world cup, immediate impact in the US, won the title with PSG after having a great personal season.

Haaland will come second, De Bruyne third.
 
Rashford’s a pretty ludicrous omission, but the bar has always been far higher for PL players. Some ridiculous names on here ahead of him.
 
How on earth a great season in a good league, and a top 5 individual World Cup of all time, isn’t enough to win it… mad.

Haaland wasn’t even City’s best player.

Mbappe as runner up would be my bet.
 
Di Maria's angel said:
Ultimately, it doesn't matter but why isn't Rashford there?
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Subjective individual awards and inconsistency, name a more iconic duo.

I'm sure you can make a case to either include or not include him in a list of the presumably 30 better players of the season. Salah is and the difference between them in raw production numbers is "only" 5 assists.

But 30 slots fly by fast when you need to keep into consideration several leagues, several major competitions, all positions.
 
TMDaines said:
Rashford’s a pretty ludicrous omission, but the bar has always been far higher for PL players. Some ridiculous names on here ahead of him.
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Rashford scored 17 in 35 games, played EL and was a substitute at the WC.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
How on earth a great season in a good league, and a top 5 individual World Cup of all time, isn’t enough to win it… mad.

Haaland wasn’t even City’s best player.

Mbappe as runner up would be my bet.
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Yes he was over the entire season.

City only got going in the second half of last season, and Rodri/De Bruyne were underperformers early on.
 
Acrobat7 said:
Rashford scored 17 in 35 games, played EL and was a substitute at the WC.
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Makes total sense that Julian Alvarez or Muani is in instead of him then. Rashford may have been a substitute at the World Cup but he still scored 3 goals despite starting only one game, not his fault the manager failed to use him more often.

He also went on a run after the World Cup where he scored 17 in 17 including goals against Man City, Barca, Arsenal, Spurs and Chelsea. Joke of an omission, but these list are always terrible because they try to shoehorn players in from all the major leagues for some balance.

Gvardiol, for example, has great potential, but Messi made him look silly in his biggest test and he was also part of a defence that conceded 7 goals in a CL knockouts game. Bono is the worst selection of all, he was terrible most of the season for Seville and basically got chosen because he saved a couple of penalties in the EL final.
 
Care_de_Bobo said:
Gvardiol, for example, has great potential, but Messi made him look silly in his biggest test and he was also part of a defence that conceded 7 goals in a CL knockouts game. Bono is the worst selection of all, he was terrible most of the season for Seville and basically got chosen because he saved a couple of penalties in the EL final.
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You need to stop reducing Ballon D'Or eligibility to single moments/matches.
 
Care_de_Bobo said:
Makes total sense that Julian Alvarez or Muani is in instead of him then. Rashford may have been a substitute at the World Cup but he still scored 3 goals despite starting only one game, not his fault the manager failed to use him more often.

He also went on a run after the World Cup where he scored 17 in 17 including goals against Man City, Barca, Arsenal, Spurs and Chelsea. Joke of an omission, but these list are always terrible because they try to shoehorn players in from all the major leagues for some balance.

Gvardiol, for example, has great potential, but Messi made him look silly in his biggest test and he was also part of a defence that conceded 7 goals in a CL knockouts game. Bono is the worst selection of all, he was terrible most of the season for Seville and basically got chosen because he saved a couple of penalties in the EL final.
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Bono won the Europa League and Morocco got to the semi-finals of the World Cup where he was one of the best in the tournament. Add the two together and voila. Voters like when you combine international and club continental success, hence why Jorginho wasn’t even in the top 10 midfielders in the world at the time but somehow was top 5 in Ballon d’Or.
 
adexkola said:
You need to stop reducing Ballon D'Or eligibility to single moments/matches.
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I'm really not, his Croatia team at the World Cup kept two clean sheets, one against Morocco and the other against Belgium which we all know had more to do with Lukaku than any amazing defending.

Leipzig won the German cup last season, but Gvardiol didn't even play the final because he got sent off in the semi for a stupid challenge when his team was 4-0 up. The 3 biggest games of the year were complete failures, so what is he getting nominated for exactly? Leipzig having the 3rd best defence in the Bundesliga?

Why don't you tell me exactly what he did to deserve being nominated.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
Bono won the Europa League and Morocco got to the semi-finals of the World Cup where he was one of the best in the tournament. Add the two together and voila. Voters like when you combine international and club continental success, hence why Jorginho wasn’t even in the top 10 midfielders in the world at the time but somehow was top 5 in Ballon d’Or.
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Are you sure about that? Did you even watch the World Cup? He made 6 saves in the whole tournament(excluding 3rd play off), conceded a goal against Canada when they didn't have a single shot on target and 2 goals from 2 shots on target against France. If that's one of the best goalkeeping performances in the World Cup it's an extremely low bar. Morocco were solid defensively as a unit, but if anything Bono was the weakest link in that backline. He really didn't have much to do.

He's been nominated because of a couple of penalty shootouts, but another poster is telling me not to reduce things to individual moments and matches. He was also bang average for Seville all season in La Liga.
 
adexkola said:
You need to stop reducing Ballon D'Or eligibility to single moments/matches.
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Moments in specific single matches are what essentially win this award... and has done, for a lot of our lifetimes, especially in a World Cup dictated one. The Argentina was generally built on Messi producing them moments too, that was basically his sole role, which he did, consistently. No Messi, no go. No Haaland, and City have still been competing on every front for every year.... sure they won CL at long last, but he didn't produce the moments that actually put them over the line for the CL really. It'd possibly be a tighter thing if he scored in the latter stages, but I doubt it.... split votes and Norway not being at the World Cup, just an uphill battle.
 
Care_de_Bobo said:
Makes total sense that Julian Alvarez or Muani is in instead of him then. Rashford may have been a substitute at the World Cup but he still scored 3 goals despite starting only one game, not his fault the manager failed to use him more often.

He also went on a run after the World Cup where he scored 17 in 17 including goals against Man City, Barca, Arsenal, Spurs and Chelsea. Joke of an omission, but these list are always terrible because they try to shoehorn players in from all the major leagues for some balance.

Gvardiol, for example, has great potential, but Messi made him look silly in his biggest test and he was also part of a defence that conceded 7 goals in a CL knockouts game. Bono is the worst selection of all, he was terrible most of the season for Seville and basically got chosen because he saved a couple of penalties in the EL final.
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I agree that there are players on the list that probably shouldn’t be there. Was just pointing out that Rashford‘s season was nothing special. I am just glad that Ronaldo didn’t make it.
 
GinobiliTheGOAT said:
Haaland failing to show up in the later stages of knockouts is going to hurt him here despite a brilliant domestic campaign for the league. It’ll be Messi who takes it.
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Messi will take it because the award is a joke voted for by reporters. Messi absolutely has not been the best player in the past 12 months. Treble winning 50+ goal machine Haaland, arguably has!

Messi defence league, assemble!
 
Amazing to see Luka Modric in the Ballon d'Or list at the age of 38. He must not be too far away from being the oldest outfield player to be nominated.

Rashford, Leao or Rodrygo could easily be there instead of Julian Alvarez, Kolo Muani or Bounou.
 
Widow said:
Messi will take it because the award is a joke voted for by reporters. Messi absolutely has not been the best player in the past 12 months. Treble winning 50+ goal machine Haaland, arguably has!

Messi defence league, assemble!
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I would generally agree that decisive performances in a one month tournament should not count more than contribution over the whole season. In this case however, there really isn't any standout performer. Haaland is a freak of a goal machine but no one watching City can say he was the difference maker for them when it mattered most. He just doesn't yet have that ability to win a big game for his team the wat Messi, Ronaldo or nowadays Mbappe do. When the competition is average, the decisive player in the biggest competition around should win it by default.
 
adexkola said:
https://www.mancity.com/news/mens/etihad-player-of-the-season-winner-announced-63822162#:~:text=Erling Haaland has been voted,took part in our poll.

https://www.si.com/fannation/soccer...ins-premier-league-player-of-the-season-award

https://www.thepfa.com/news/2023/8/29/pfa-premier-league-team-of-the-year-2023

https://www.espn.com.au/football/st...-award-record-margin-kerr-claims-womens-prize

Now, to be fair to you,

https://www.mancity.com/news/mens/rodrigo-uefa-champions-league-player-of-the-year-63822101

What were you saying about reddit again being more knowledgeable than journalists and footballers in the sport? Are they obsessed with tap ins too?



I thought that was De Bruyne. Even the matchwinner had a poor game (he said so himself).

The best player on the pitch was John "Beckenbauer" Stones but I don't see his name being mentioned anywhere.
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journalists? Are you aware that Messi is the no.1 when it comes to the most favorite player to win Ballon D'or by journalists? Then, why are you on this thread when journalists by far think Messi will win it if you rely on their opinion that much? I suggest you come here next time when journalists cannot agree on whom to pick unlike this time where Messi is the no.1 favorite by far.

In the links above, KDB is the best playmaker in Premier League (2nd in the world) and Rodri the best defensive midfielder in the world now & the best CL player. How do these refute what I am saying? Haaland is a striker spoonfed by some of the best players in the world, ghosting every single time in the semis and finals, cannot even create for himself, no dribbling-link-up skills. Even Gundogan was more influential than him in big games. Haaland is not a big game changer YET unlike Mbappe or Messi..

You do not win Ballon D'or with only tap-ins with zero playmaking, dribbling, passing skills, creativity and not showing up in a single big final or semi final at a team like City... especially when the other guy singlehandedly took his above-average team to the WC glory as the best player of the WC, the single most prestigious award in the world of football breaking all types of WC records... Especially when the other guy is chosen as the best playmaker in the world, leading Ligue 1 & Europe in assists, matching the real young star Mbappe in goals + assists, matching the new dribbling king Vinicius in terms of dribbles in top 5-leagues at 35..

This is not the best striker award..

KDB and Rodri are seen as the best players at City for most football fans, there's no question, they are irreplacable.. I would even say Kane did better than Haaland last season as a striker. Send Kane to this City and Haaland to Spurs and see what happens.. Kane scored 30 in a poor Spurs while offering way more than Haaland as a striker. Haaland is more like a poor man’s Gerd Muller at the moment with his inability to shine in big games at a dominant City..
 
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UnrelatedPsuedo said:
How on earth a great season in a good league, and a top 5 individual World Cup of all time, isn’t enough to win it… mad.

Haaland wasn’t even City’s best player.

Mbappe as runner up would be my bet.
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Exactly, most people think KDB, Rodri were easily more influential than Haaland at City last year... The guy ghosted in every single semis & finals, 7 games.. When he does not score, he is useless, no dribbling-creativity-passing, not even world class link-up plays.. Mbappe is way more versatile than Haaland, a big time game-changer.. Luckily, we have tons of football fans that are not obsessed with tap-in numbers..

www.reddit.com/r/PremierLeague/comments/13wv4m6/who_would_you_say_is_man_citys_best_player_how/
 
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Theonas said:
I would generally agree that decisive performances in a one month tournament should not count more than contribution over the whole season. In this case however, there really isn't any standout performer. Haaland is a freak of a goal machine but no one watching City can say he was the difference maker for them when it mattered most. He just doesn't yet have that ability to win a big game for his team the wat Messi, Ronaldo or nowadays Mbappe do. When the competition is average, the decisive player in the biggest competition around should win it by default.
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Great points.. Haaland is simply not a game changer unlike Messi or Mbappe..

Also,
Messi had more MOTM performances than Mbappe in Ligue 1 (14 vs 7) who was picked as the best player in Ligue 1.
He had 40 G+A in 39 games in "Ligue 1+CL" for PSG whereas Mbaape had 45 G+A in 42 games, so very similar stats..
He was no.1 in assist numbers in Ligue 1, no.1 in assists in top 5 leagues along with KDB.
He was right behind Vinicius in terms of dribbles in top 5 leagues

So, he was up there with the best even at 35 during the regular season.. It is not just his WC campaign that makes him a favorite..
 
Haaland's style of play is extremely un-aesthetic and generally not fun to watch for the average football fan. Effective, yes, but ugly. If your game is based around just being a finisher in a team that dominates the ball and has some of the best passers around, you're going to be at a disadvantage when it comes to individual awards, regardless of what your team is winning. Mbappe will always get the nod over him (disregarding that I view Mbappe as a better player) because Mbappe is far more fun to watch.
 
Messi will probably get it.

I’m shocked so many are tipping Haaland. Tap in merchant who went off the boil at the business end of the season and ghosted his sides biggest games, vs Messi who just had one of the best individual World Cup’s ever (despite what others claim, he clearly did) and had a good season for his club on an individual level. I thought De Bruyne had a better season than Haaland and came up trumps in bigger moments.
 
Baggio and Ronaldo didn't have better world cups than Messi. Maradona aside, it's hard to pick out wc performances clearly better.
 
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