Ballon d'Or 2023 | Messi wins for 8th time

[Gehrman]

I see Ronaldo’s sister has kept it classy too by commenting in a post suggesting his awards were earned and not given. She’s 46 years old

What is it about that family and having the mental age of a 12 year old as well as reeking of insecurity. To be honest the level of insecurity is pretty crazy considering his huge success.

Actually i think this spread to the whole Portugal squad. The Portuguese FA was desperate to claim Bruno's goal to Ronaldo which Ronaldo claimed. And then after they lost to Morocco who were down to 10 men before half time. Bruno blamed it on the ref who was Argentine who actually had a good performance but Bruno went with the rigged for Argentina explanation, despite Portugal literally played against 10 men. I think there was feeling that if Argentina won it and Messi had a good WC he would be crowned as the best ever. Which he was.

 

[heraklion]

Nah other than the year when Xavi/Iniesta winning WC in 2010 (when Messi is clearly the best individual player), where you may argue there not much controversy. However the one in 2021 (when a lot saying Lewandowski fully deserve it while Messi has been struggling bad in Ligue 1), and 2023 (not even Pep could decide who is winner as Haaland fully deserve winning it too) does create a lot of debate around the media and neutral fans.

But of course if you are paranoid and can’t handle any controversy there, you may just blame everything on the so called Ronaldo fanboys, works easier for your peace of mind.

Imagine thinking you can win Ballon D'or by statpadding in 1-team league inferior Bundesliga with superior Bayern vs La Liga top scorer, Copa MVP, IFFHS World's best playmaker (2nd) in a much weaker Barca

2021 is one of the most clear wins for Messi. Lewa got a lot of sympathy votes because of not being given the award he deserved in 2020. Lewa could not even play any CL game after the 2nd round due to injury.

La Liga top goal scorer + La Liga most assists + Copa America MVP + Copa top goal scorer + IFFHS World's Best Playmaker (2nd) >>>>> Whatever Lewa did in Bundesliga with Bayern

Messi also had 27 MOTM vs Lewa with 13.

 

[heraklion]

Well even so I’d argue should France win penalty shootout the eventual winner could be Mbappe. IMO there is not really one single stand out player in 2023 so any of the final 3 (Messi, Haaland, Mbappe) could have won the award by just a very small margin, as small as one decisive penalty kick from their teammates going in.

The argument for Haaland, is that, apart from his insane goal return which broken England all time record, he also won the treble with City. Of course winning the treble required a lot of collective effort, but Haaland club season has been as perfect as any individual could get, it’s almost like reaching the ceiling.

No one comes close to Messi in the WC 2022, acting like Mbappe is equivalent to Messi in the WC, doesn't even know Griezmann until the final was widely seen as the best player in the WC after Mesi and even he was nowhere near Messi in terms of performance & impact.

Talking about small margins as if Ronaldo would win Ballon D'ors had he not been bailed out by Sergio Ramos equalizer against Atletico in the CL final, Griezmann missing a penalty in another final, Terry slipping and missing the penalty in another final, Eder bringing him EC in final where he was cheerleading outside the pitch and so on and on.. What would happen if Haaland's teammates did not bail him out in every single semis & finals including CL, FA Cup, Super Cup etc.? Poor guys, they probably must have got frustrated and tired of having to score on behalf of Haaland the ghost in every single key game.

I have never seen any striker that ghosted that frequently in a treble-winning team, his season is probably the worst for a lead-striker in a treble winning team when it comes to big games performance. 8 semis & finals, 0 goals & assists when his scored 12 with the worst ratings. Rodri and KDB for most were way more instrumental for the team. Rodri was even chosen as the MVP of the CL and MOTM of the final of UEFA.

I'd say Kane had a much better season than Haaland scoring 32 goals, only 6 less, playing for Spurs while getting much less service and offering way more as a striker.

 

[heraklion]

That euro sport link is for what CR7 said to Modric for him receiving the UEFA men's player of the year award. It's awarded in August and the article is dated September 2018. Plus if you actually read the article it's talking about the UEFA men's award. People care less about this award, especially Ronaldo. The Ballon D'or is what everyone cares about. That's handed out later in the year.

It's not known if Ronaldo thanked Modric and Benzema for their Ballon D'or wins. What is known publicly is Modric had a go at him for not attending the ceremony and Benzema said he never sent him a congratulations text. Retry your research again, you'll find the quotes.

CR7 fanboys with the misinformation again or maybe they're just that deluded.

Also I've seen your responses to @Gehrman just above. You've embarrassed yourself.

"Cristiano Ronaldo says he was disappointed not to win the Ballon d'Or and claimed the "numbers do not lie" after being beaten to the award by Luka Modric."

"Do you think I'm going home and crying?"
www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11577265/cristiano-ronaldo-claims-numbers-do-not-lie-after-luka-modric-wins-ballon-dor

Yes, that's exactly what we are thinking seeing his childish digs on social media year in year out.

 

[Trezeguet17]

No one comes close to Messi in the WC 2022, acting like Mbappe is equivalent to Messi in the WC, doesn't even know Griezmann until the final was widely seen as the best player in the WC after Mesi and even he was nowhere near Messi in terms of performance & impact.

Talking about small margins as if Ronaldo would win Ballon D'ors had he not been bailed out by Sergio Ramos equalizer against Atletico in the CL final, Griezmann missing a penalty in another final, Terry slipping and missing the penalty in another final, Eder bringing him EC in final where he was cheerleading outside the pitch and so on and on.. What would happen if Haaland's teammates did not bail him out in every single semis & finals including CL, FA Cup, Super Cup etc.? Poor guys, they probably must have got frustrated and tired of having to score on behalf of Haaland the ghost in every single key game.

I have never seen any striker that ghosted that frequently in a treble-winning team, his season is probably the worst for a lead-striker in a treble winning team when it comes to big games performance. 8 semis & finals, 0 goals & assists when his scored 12 with the worst ratings. Rodri and KDB for most were way more instrumental for the team. Rodri was even chosen as the MVP of the CL and MOTM of the final of UEFA.

I'd say Kane had a much better season than Haaland scoring 32 goals, only 6 less, playing for Spurs while getting much less service and offering way more as a striker.

Agree. City won the treble DESPITE Haaland, not BECAUSE of him.
He had a shocker of a season. I wonder how long City will be able to drag him along.

You think City would consider a cheeky 15 million offer from us to get rid of him?

 

[mu4c_20le]

"Cristiano Ronaldo says he was disappointed not to win the Ballon d'Or and claimed the "numbers do not lie" after being beaten to the award by Luka Modric."

"Do you think I'm going home and crying?"
www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11577265/cristiano-ronaldo-claims-numbers-do-not-lie-after-luka-modric-wins-ballon-dor

Yes, that's exactly what we are thinking seeing his childish digs on social media year in year out.

So he congratulated him twice in one year. It's almost as if @JogaBonitoRooney doesn't know people can just use google.

 

[heraklion]

So he congratulated him twice in one year. It's almost as if @JogaBonitoRooney doesn't think people can just use google.

It sounds more like the guy was forced to congratulate in pain. Not hard to see his agony reading the link implying "it's rigged" as usual talking about how disappointed he was, that he had the numbers and so on rather than saying a couple of good things about Modric like saying he deserved it etc.

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

Well even so I’d argue should France win penalty shootout the eventual winner could be Mbappe. IMO there is not really one single stand out player in 2023 so any of the final 3 (Messi, Haaland, Mbappe) could have won the award by just a very small margin, as small as one decisive penalty kick from their teammates going in.

The argument for Haaland, is that, apart from his insane goal return which broken England all time record, he also won the treble with City. Of course winning the treble required a lot of collective effort, but Haaland club season has been as perfect as any individual could get, it’s almost like reaching the ceiling.

Haaland Had zero goals in Fa cup & CL semi finals and finals. City scored 12 in total during those matches with zero involvement from him. None of his goals in CL were decisive like Rodri's in the final, but of course he did score a lot in CL this season and should be commended for it. But like Lewa at Bayern in CL, he gets a lot of goals when City as a team score a lot of goals but neither player do you recall in CL in recent years having that defining tie deciding goal. Lewa 100% deserved in 2020 if they had one, and I do think Messi's most "controversial" Ballon d'or was 2021, like Ronaldo's 2013 one.

Remove Messi's goals from the WC and Argentina crash spectacularly in the group stage.

Haaland is amazing, but that Messi World Cup will be talked about much more.

As for Pep:

Always I said the Ballon d'Or should be in two sections; one for Messi, then after another one so Haaland should win, yes," Guardiola told a news conference on Friday. "We won the treble, he scored a million goals. The worst season for Messi is the best for the rest of the players. Both deserve it.

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

It sounds more like the guy was forced to congratulate in pain. Not hard to see his agony reading the link implying "it's rigged" as usual talking about how disappointed he was, that he had the numbers and so on rather than saying a couple of good things about Modric like saying he deserved it etc.

He didn't congratulate benzema either

 

[JogaBonitoRooney]

So he congratulated him twice in one year. It's almost as if @JogaBonitoRooney doesn't know people can just use google.

Looks like you're also the one that doesn't know how to use Google. Someone else had to find a stronger article to support your case.

He's barely congratulating Modric here too. Looks like he was asked about it in a press conference and he responded 1 week after the ceremony, it doesn't sound genuine at all, very forced.

- "numbers don't lie" (as if it's a golden boot award, if it were Modric would have no chance to be in the conversation, but football is more than just about goal stats),
- "on the pitch I've done everything" (except show up for another WC)
- still feeling the need to add a "but" right after his congratulations to Modric.
Who talks like that about their own teammate who's helped them so much.

Still no proof of a personal congratulations. So original point still stands.

Pretty much any teammate or close enough ex-teammate these days will post something on social media congratulating their teammate if they achieve something big. It's normal. Ronaldo has that narcissistic behaviour. I couldn't see him doing that.

If Portugal were to win the world cup without him in the squad, I could see him struggle to put on a face to celebrate with the rest of the country. He's that type of guy.

 

[mu4c_20le]

It sounds more like the guy was forced to congratulate in pain. Not hard to see his agony reading the link implying "it's rigged" as usual talking about how disappointed he was, that he had the numbers and so on rather than saying a couple of good things about Modric like saying he deserved it etc.

He's obviously disappointed, and has never been one to shy away from his feelings. I do think the grats was real though, but thats all your getting out of him

 

[Fobal]

It's not about 'not having flaws', it's about so lacking in class that you can't even publicly congratulate a teammate who fought alongside you, and also being publicly obsessed with the achievements of another player. That is the behaviour of a child, who can't understand that not everything is about them..

I get that, I know that he can manage better his declarations, even maybe his feelings, in fact it might be better for him as a person too. Yet mainly I was refferring that still people can be a fan of him as a footballer, or at least apreciate him, no matter how he manages himself or also really dislike him as a fella but still think greatly of him as a footballer. I love Romario as a player, yet lately everytime he opens his mouth I might chop his head off but I still will put him in the best ever forwards/goalscorers group. So it doesn't take to be a man child to appreciate him.

What I do feel is annoying as fvck, it's how many fans of any extraordinary footballers can be that annoying when "defending" their chosen one. You can see it right here in this thread too with fans of other players and how suddenly Erling is almost a nobody that deserves nothing.

This is especially true for a team like Argentina who actually are not that good of a team

We are quite a lot better than maybe some mix of snobism and lack of exposure (as usual) thinks we are. This is a great TEAM, with emphasis in that concept, this doesn't take in the slightest credit out of Messi of how great he played on every sense, even leaving pure stats aside.

 

[adexkola]

It sounds more like the guy was forced to congratulate in pain. Not hard to see his agony reading the link implying "it's rigged" as usual talking about how disappointed he was, that he had the numbers and so on rather than saying a couple of good things about Modric like saying he deserved it etc.

What did Ronaldo do to you? This is a lot of armchair psychoanalysis you're doing here

 

[brunoag4]

He didn't congratulate benzema either

not surprising to be frank, a classic example of a narcissistic person, can't mature.
He might be sad to see Real's CL glory with Benzema and Modric as the stars.

 

[adexkola]

Haaland Had zero goals in Fa cup & CL semi finals and finals. City scored 12 in total during those matches with zero involvement from him. None of his goals in CL were decisive like Rodri's in the final, but of course he did score a lot in CL this season and should be commended for it. But like Lewa at Bayern in CL, he gets a lot of goals when City as a team score a lot of goals but neither player do you recall in CL in recent years having that defining tie deciding goal.

Here is the breakdown of goals scored in these commonly mentioned FA Cup semifinals/finals:

Mahrez: 3 (against Sheffield United)
Gundogan: 2
Rodri: 1
De Bruyne: 1
Alvarez: 1
Bernardo Silva: 2
Own Goal: 1

Doesn't look like there was any "decisive player" for City across these 5 games from a goal scoring perspective, looks like it was a team effort. The idea of this being some sort of black mark against Haaland seems artificial, considering he was the decisive player against Bayern, and against Arsenal in the league.

Let's say he had scored all 12 goals above. Honestly, do you think he'd have the Ballon D'Or in hand rather than Messi? It would (rightly) be the same result. World Cups year, give to Messi. Simple. No need to make Haaland out to be some scrub in an attempt to justify the award.

 

[Taribo's Gap]

Here is the breakdown of goals scored in these commonly mentioned FA Cup semifinals/finals:

Mahrez: 3 (against Sheffield United)
Gundogan: 2
Rodri: 1
De Bruyne: 1
Alvarez: 1
Bernardo Silva: 2
Own Goal: 1

Doesn't look like there was any "decisive player" for City across these 5 games from a goal scoring perspective, looks like it was a team effort. The idea of this being some sort of black mark against Haaland seems artificial, considering he was the decisive player against Bayern, and against Arsenal in the league.

Let's say he had scored all 12 goals above. Honestly, do you think he'd have the Ballon D'Or in hand rather than Messi? It would (rightly) be the same result. World Cups year, give to Messi. Simple. No need to make Haaland out to be some scrub in an attempt to justify the award.

This would be a scenario we have not seen before: a clear decisive player in a treble-winning side pitted against a clear decisive player in a World Cup winning side. The only other time there has been a treble winner in the running for BdO in a World Cup year was in 2010 and while Sneijder was clearly an important player, I wouldn't call him a clear protagonist or decisive (a la Benzema 2022).

For the rest of the World Cup years there hasn't been a treble winner to offset the World Cup boost, but we also haven't had such a clear protagonist in a World Cup victory probably since Maradonna himself. Zidane (1998) or Ronaldo (2002) could be argued, but it's not the same level, IMO (Thuram versus Croatia, French Defense, Rivaldo etc.). While the Argentina 2022 defense was strong, they also made some boneheaded errors from fatigue that threw games back into question after Argentina had been in the lead. Ironically, for both Zidane and Ronaldo their performances in the finals greatly boosted the esteem with which their tournaments and reputations are held. This sort of thing is that extra bit that people would like to see from Haaland. A lot of the recent World Cup winners have been more team efforts with no clearly decisive players, so superlative individual seasons could trump the typical World Cup boost.

If Haaland did all of that and scored all of those goals, then you are starting to get into rarified air. His season would be considered even more historically great. You're talking arguably the best individual season since Messi when he won the treble in 2015, all things considered. In that scenario, I could see him winning the BdO, even with Messi's effort in the World Cup. It would depend on how voters would weigh sentimentality versus Messi voter fatigue and desire for a new era.

 

[PaudieG91]

Messi has deserved every Ballon d'Or he has won and probably should have more.

The greatest to ever to do it by a country mile and hopefully he continues playing football for as long as possible because it will be the saddest day in football when he retires.

 

[Rojow]

Although in close ties like those, player’s reputation could have played a decisive role

Yes. Many people wanted to have other winner instead of the same guy, in this case, Messi.

 

[Andrade]

"Cristiano Ronaldo says he was disappointed not to win the Ballon d'Or and claimed the "numbers do not lie" after being beaten to the award by Luka Modric."

"Do you think I'm going home and crying?"
www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11577265/cristiano-ronaldo-claims-numbers-do-not-lie-after-luka-modric-wins-ballon-dor

Yes, that's exactly what we are thinking seeing his childish digs on social media year in year out.

The fact people are in here trying to defend this idiocy just makes you lose faith in humanity. What flipping numbers?!?! He's a midfielder! And your teammate who goes to war with you every game. And he played much better than you at the World Cup (a tournament you have been uniformly shit at BTW), that's why he won. Grow up, FFS......

 

[heraklion]

The fact people are in here trying to defend this idiocy just makes you lose faith in humanity. What flipping numbers?!?! He's a midfielder! And your teammate who goes to war with you every game. And he played much better than you at the World Cup (a tournament you have been uniformly shit at BTW), that's why he won. Grow up, FFS......

Even the Real players gave up on him..

"Former Real Madrid team-mates Cristiano Ronaldo and Sergio Ramos 'haven't spoken in TWO YEARS since falling out over Luka Modric winning the Ballon d'Or'

"According to Marca, Ramos and the rest of the Real dressing room, with the exception of Marcelo, have apparently distanced themselves from the forward after his reaction to Croatian beating him to the prize. "

www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-8815097/Cristiano-Ronaldo-Sergio-Ramos-havent-spoken-TWO-YEARS-fall-out.html

 

[Joel Miller]

Actually i think this spread to the whole Portugal squad. The Portuguese FA was desperate to claim Bruno's goal to Ronaldo which Ronaldo claimed. And then after they lost to Morocco who were down to 10 men before half time. Bruno blamed it on the ref who was Argentine who actually had a good performance but Bruno went with the rigged for Argentina explanation, despite Portugal literally played against 10 men. I think there was feeling that if Argentina won it and Messi had a good WC he would be crowned as the best ever. Which he was.

Yeah Fernandes and Pepe’s remakes were a bit of a giveaway to the influence he’s had on that side. To be honest it’s crazy that he’s still in there padding out his stats for Portugal after his toxic influence in their World Cup campaign. Have to say I also can’t recall Messi ever desperately trying to claim a team mates goal!

I remember Guti mentioned that Ronaldo would get agitated whenever he’d seen Messi had scored for Barca so I suppose it’s not really a surprise he was bitter about Modric winning, about Benzema and obviously about Messi doing it.

Objectively speaking, the only close ones in terms of votes are:

1996 - Sammer won by 1 vote (could have been L.Ronaldo)
2010 - Messi won by 5% (could have been Iniesta or Xavi)
2013 - Ronaldo won by 3% (could have been Messi or Ribery)
2019 - Messi won by 7 votes (could have been VVD)
2021 - Messi won by 33 votes (could have been Lewandowski)

You may argue those years could be ended up either way. Although in close ties like those, player’s reputation could have played a decisive role.

In terms of controversy you may argue those years we have the most divided views/opinions:

2010 - Messi individual club season/stats vs Xavi/Iniesta WC/club success
2013 - Ronaldo individual stats vs Ribery club success
2018 - Modric WC performance vs Ronaldo club season stats/success
2021 - Messi first Copa success vs Lewandowski club season stats
2023 - Messi WC success vs Haaland club success/individual stats

I wouldn’t say objectivity is your strong suit on this topic, objectively speaking!

 

[RedRonaldo]

Haaland Had zero goals in Fa cup & CL semi finals and finals. City scored 12 in total during those matches with zero involvement from him. None of his goals in CL were decisive like Rodri's in the final, but of course he did score a lot in CL this season and should be commended for it. But like Lewa at Bayern in CL, he gets a lot of goals when City as a team score a lot of goals but neither player do you recall in CL in recent years having that defining tie deciding goal. Lewa 100% deserved in 2020 if they had one, and I do think Messi's most "controversial" Ballon d'or was 2021, like Ronaldo's 2013 one.

Remove Messi's goals from the WC and Argentina crash spectacularly in the group stage.

Haaland is amazing, but that Messi World Cup will be talked about much more.

As for Pep:

Always I said the Ballon d'Or should be in two sections; one for Messi, then after another one so Haaland should win, yes," Guardiola told a news conference on Friday. "We won the treble, he scored a million goals. The worst season for Messi is the best for the rest of the players. Both deserve it.

The part regarding Haaland is true too, but I think you can single out any player and argue for or against them winning it in 2023 for different reasons, hence I’ve said it’s very close ties among those 3. It’s all about which one of them has the best narrative (public opinion) of winning it.

Haaland

Reasons for:
- Broke PL all time record
- by far best goalscorer in 22/23, with 52 goals 9 assists in 53 games
- best player in PL
- won treble

Reasons against:
- lack of technical ability and game involvement
- failed to score decisive goals during cup finals & semi finals

Messi

Reasons for:
- won WC
- best player in WC (most motm), scoring decisive goals
- 20 goals 20 assist in 39 games for PSG

Reasons against:
- failed to impress/progress in CL, booing off the pitch in many games for PSG
- rely mostly on penalties or penalty shootouts to win WC games

Mbappe

Reasons for:
- probably best ever individual performance in WC final (scoring decisive hat trick)
- top goalscorer in WC
- 41 goals 10 assists in 43 games for PSG, best player in Ligue 1

Reasons against:
- failed to win any major trophy
- lack of consistency periodically

 

[Joel Miller]

Messi
Reasons for:
- won WC
- best player in WC (most motm)

Reasons against:
- failed to impress in CL
- rely mostly on penalties or penalty shootouts to win WC games

This is why I don’t think you can be taken too seriously on this subject. Why would any of that be a reason against? Even if you take away penalties he was excellent in nearly every game he played in the tournament, created a large number of chances for his team, controlled games and produced two assists that are going to go down in World Cup folklore. Even that goal against Mexico was huge given they were over an hour into the game, looking nervous and at risk of going out in the group stage. A big player who produced big moments throughout.

He also showed admirable leadership and stepped up first and converted his penalties in those shootouts as opposed to hanging back hoping to be the winning kick with all the glory. So I’m not sure why having two penalty shootouts against two top sides should be seen as a negative against him.

 

[heraklion]

The part regarding Haaland is true too, but I think you can single out any player and argue for or against them winning it in 2023 for different reasons, hence I’ve said it’s very close ties among those 3. It’s all about which one of them has the best narrative (public opinion) of winning it.

Haaland

Reasons for:
- Broke PL all time record
- by far best goalscorer in 22/23 (PL+CL)
- won treble

Reasons against:
- lack of technical ability and game involvement
- failed to score decisive goals during cup finals & semi finals

Messi
Reasons for:
- won WC
- best player in WC (most motm)

Reasons against:
- failed to impress in CL
- rely mostly on penalties or penalty shootouts to win WC games

Mbappe

Reasons for:
- probably best ever individual performance in WC final (scoring a hat trick)
- top goalscorer in WC
- 41 goals 10 assists in 43 games for PSG

Reasons against:
- failed to win any major trophy
- lack of consistency periodically

ignores Mbappe had 45 g&a in 42 games while Messi had 40 g&a in 39 games in Ligue 1 + CL
says Mbappe had the best ever performance in the WC final with a hat-trick that includes 2 penalties, and then puts penalty goals as a cons for Messi
ignores Messi had most goals + assists in the WC
ignores Messi had most MOTM in European leagues
ignores Messi had 68 goals & assists vs Haaland with 66 g&a
ignores Messi had more MOTM than Mbappe at PSG (14 vs 7)
ignores Messi had the highest average per game rating in Europe (8.28 vs Mbappe with 7.80)

conveniently ignores Messi's GOAT level playmaking status by not including Messi's IFFHS World's Best Playmaker Award win

ignores that Messi led Europe along with KDB in most assists in the league + CL
ignores that Messi led Europe in big chance creation & dribbling stats along with Bruno and Vinicius
ignores Messi led Ligue 1 in most assists

 

[RedRonaldo]

This is why I don’t think you can be taken too seriously on this subject. Why would any of that be a reason against? Even if you take away penalties he was excellent in nearly every game he played in the tournament, created a large number of chances for his team, controlled games and produced two assists that are going to go down in World Cup folklore. Even that goal against Mexico was huge given they were over an hour into the game, looking nervous and at risk of going out in the group stage. A big player who produced big moments throughout.

He also showed admirable leadership and stepped up first and converted his penalties in those shootouts as opposed to hanging back hoping to be the winning kick with all the glory. So I’m not sure why having two penalty shootouts against two top sides should be seen as a negative against him.

Of course scoring penalties are fine, but when about 2/3 of his goals scored are from penalties, it’s not something leading to be very strong case for Ballon D’or win. And when “others” has been criticised heavily for scoring too many penalties over the years, of course we can’t apply different double standard there for Messi.

As for penalty shootouts, winning both quarter and final by penalties required lots of luck and help from his teammates, which could lead to either. I just don’t see it as strong positive for Ballon D’or.

And I mean, there are also many negatives listed for the other 2 too. It’s not really aim at Messi or anyone in particular.

 

[heraklion]

This is why I don’t think you can be taken too seriously on this subject. Why would any of that be a reason against? Even if you take away penalties he was excellent in nearly every game he played in the tournament, created a large number of chances for his team, controlled games and produced two assists that are going to go down in World Cup folklore. Even that goal against Mexico was huge given they were over an hour into the game, looking nervous and at risk of going out in the group stage. A big player who produced big moments throughout.

He also showed admirable leadership and stepped up first and converted his penalties in those shootouts as opposed to hanging back hoping to be the winning kick with all the glory. So I’m not sure why having two penalty shootouts against two top sides should be seen as a negative against him.

He is obsessed with tap-in numbers, this is the guy writing novels when Ronaldo scores a hat-trick against Luxembourg, Andorra and has trouble understanding why people make fun of his posts.

Looking at his post, you can see he thinks Messi plays as a tap-in merchant, not a single word about his creativity, playmaking, passing, dribbling skills, the complete set of skills that put Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Platini, Zidane, Ronaldinho etc. among the greatest players ever..

Criticizes Messi for penalties, then goes on to call Mbappe's final performance with 2 penalties as the best individual WC final performance ever so that he can make Mbappe as a part of the conversation when he was never a serious candidate.

 

[RedRonaldo]

ignores Mbappe had 45 g&a in 42 games while Messi had 40 g&a in 39 games in Ligue 1 + CL
says Mbappe had the best ever performance in the WC final with a hat-trick that includes 2 penalties, and then puts penalty goals as a cons for Messi
ignores Messi had most goals + assists in the WC
ignores Messi had most MOTM in European leagues
ignores Messi had 68 goals & assists vs Haaland with 66 g&a
ignores Messi had more MOTM than Mbappe at PSG (14 vs 7)
ignores Messi had the highest average per game rating in Europe (8.28 vs Mbappe with 7.80)

conveniently ignores Messi's GOAT level playmaking status by not including Messi's IFFHS World's Best Playmaker Award win

ignores that Messi led Europe along with KDB in most assists in the league + CL
ignores that Messi led Europe in big chance creation & dribbling stats along with Bruno and Vinicius
ignores Messi led Ligue 1 in most assists

Wouldn’t count Messi goals and assists in MLS, not for its lack of quality and recognition. But simply the fact that this Ballon D’or officially only counts for the period from 1 Aug 2022 to 31 July 2023.

Messi MLS seasons stats around 26 Aug, which is outside of the counted period. As for league cup with Inter Miami, you may count his 3 goals 1 assists during group stages, which were played before end of July. But that’s about it.

 

[heraklion]

Wouldn’t count Messi goals and assists in MLS, not for its lack of quality and recognition. But simply the fact that this Ballon D’or officially only counts for the period from 1 Aug 2022 to 31 July 2023.

Messi MLS seasons stats around 26 Aug, which is outside of the counted period. As for league cup with Inter Miami, you may count his 3 goals 1 assists during group stages, which were played before end of July. But that’s about it.

68 is the number of goals & assists Messi had in that period between 1 Aug 2022 and 31 July 2023.
If I include the period beyond 31 July 2023, that number becomes 81.

41 g&a at PSG
23 g&a at NT
4 g&a in MLS

 

[Joel Miller]

Of course scoring penalties are fine, but when about 2/3 of his goals scored are from penalties, it’s not something leading to be very strong case for Ballon D’or win. And when “others” has been criticised heavily for scoring too many penalties over the years, of course we can’t apply different double standard there for Messi.

As for penalty shootouts, winning both quarter and final by penalties required lots of luck and help from his teammates, which could lead to either. I just don’t see it as strong positive for Ballon D’or.

And I mean, there are also many negatives listed for the other 2 too. It’s not really aim at Messi or anyone in particular.

You haven’t even addressed my point though. Who cares about Messi’s goal tally at that World Cup in respect of the Ballon D’or? It’s not a top scorer award and even if you take away the majority of his goals he was still sensational. He wasn’t awarded the ballon D’or because he scored 7 goals, he was given it because he was fantastic for his team throughout, he produced in the biggest moments in respect of both open play goals and assists/chance creation and he did it all showing great leadership while shouldering more pressure than any player there.

I don’t really want to open this can of worms again but you know full well Ronaldo’s penalty count is often noted because outwith scoring he simply doesn’t influence other areas of the game the way Messi does. And sorry but I’ve never seen you suggest Ronaldo’s Ballon D’or’s might be dubious, that maybe he shouldn’t have won a ballon D’or because Madrid only won the CL in a penalty shootout and therefore he was lucky, or maybe not because he needed a last minute Sergio Ramos header to win another CL final, or maybe because he needed Eder to score to win the European Championship in a tournament where his side only won one solitary game and he was a non factor in the final, therefore he was lucky. The chances that Argentina even get as far as those penalty shootouts without Messi are slim to say the least. Anyway, you have a very one sided take on all of this.

 

[Pass and Move]

Haaland certainly scored a lot and won the treble, but you could quite reasonably argue that had Lewandowski or Kane been playing for City instead of him that they would also have won the treble and put up similar numbers. Messi, however, was arguably irreplaceable in that Argentina World Cup campaign. Beyond possibly Maradona, there may not be another player in history that could have replaced Messi and lifted the trophy with Argentina.

 

[RedRonaldo]

You haven’t even addressed my point though. Who cares about Messi’s goal tally at that World Cup in respect of the Ballon D’or? It’s not a top scorer award and even if you take away the majority of his goals he was still sensational. He wasn’t awarded the ballon D’or because he scored 7 goals, he was given it because he was fantastic for his team throughout, he produced in the biggest moments in respect of both open play goals and assists/chance creation and he did it all showing great leadership while shouldering more pressure than any player there.

I don’t really want to open this can of worms again but you know full well Ronaldo’s penalty count is often noted because outwith scoring he simply doesn’t influence other areas of the game the way Messi does. And sorry but I’ve never seen you suggest Ronaldo’s Ballon D’or’s might be dubious, that maybe he shouldn’t have won a ballon D’or because Madrid only won the CL in a penalty shootout and therefore he was lucky, or maybe not because he needed a last minute Sergio Ramos header to win another CL final, or maybe because he needed Eder to score to win the European Championship in a tournament where his side only won one solitary game and he was a non factor in the final, therefore he was lucky. The chances that Argentina even get as far as those penalty shootouts without Messi are slim to say the least. Anyway, you have a very one sided take on all of this.

I don’t know why you feel the strong need to bring Ronaldo into this discussion, as he is not among candidate for 22/23 Ballon D’or. The comparison is always on Messi vs Haaland vs Mbappe. And you seems getting swayed away from the core discussion, so let me get it straight to you - I am not implying Messi isn’t worthy winner for 2023 Ballon D’or, it’s just that this year has been abit tight or controversial as there are basically 3 possible winners there. In the end, Messi has the strongest narrative (finally winning the WC and settle for the GOAT title) so it just naturally goes to him.

As for your question, I am not arguing against his WC performance, if you care to read my original statement with an open mind, you will notice I did mention him being best player in WC as his strong points of winning it, which is the whole argument you are basing on. But we also can’t ignore the fact that 2 out of 4 wins in knock out stage are decided by penalty shootout, whereas 3 out of 4 goals he scored in knockout stage are penalties, which present significance part of luck factor, which lead to him winning WC and hence Ballon D’or.

In the end, I agree he is worthy winner, but should Haaland wins it, or should Mbappe wins it if his teammates didn’t miss penalty kick in final shootout, I would also feel they are both worthy winner.

 

[RedRonaldo]

68 is the number of goals & assists Messi had in that period between 1 Aug 2022 and 31 July 2023.
If I include the period beyond 31 July 2023, that number becomes 81.

41 g&a at PSG
23 g&a at NT
4 g&a in MLS

I can give you that, but large part of those (13 from international friendlies, 4 from
MLS, 32 from Ligue 1) aren’t really against same level of opponents as Haaland was facing week in week out)

 

[Zehner]

I don’t know why you feel the strong need to bring Ronaldo into this discussion, as he is not among candidate for 22/23 Ballon D’or. The comparison is always on Messi vs Haaland vs Mbappe. And you seems getting swayed away from the core discussion, so let me get it straight to you - I am not implying Messi isn’t worthy winner for 2023 Ballon D’or, it’s just that this year has been abit tight or controversial as there are basically 3 possible winners there. In the end, Messi has the strongest narrative (finally winning the WC and settle for the GOAT title) so it just naturally goes to him.

As for your question, I am not arguing against his WC performance, if you care to read my original statement with an open mind, you will notice I did mention him being best player in WC as his strong points of winning it, which is the whole argument you are basing on. But we also can’t ignore the fact that 2 out of 4 wins in knock out stage are decided by penalty shootout, whereas 3 out of 4 goals he scored in knockout stage are penalties, which present significance part of luck factor, which lead to him winning WC and hence Ballon D’or.

In the end, I agree he is worthy winner, but should Haaland wins it, or should Mbappe wins it if his teammates didn’t miss penalty kick in final shootout, I would also feel they are both worthy winner.

How is Mbappe even in the discussion? He wasn't better for PSG and performed worse at the WC. No argument at all in his favor.

And Haaland isn't Ballon D'Or worthy either in my opinion. This isn't the Golden Boot. It is sad that he is even considered to begin with.

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

Messi

Reasons against:
- failed to impress/progress in CL, booing off the pitch in many games for PSG
- rely mostly on penalties or penalty shootouts to win WC games

RedRonaldo you're a good man, but come on now that should have zero bearing on the trophy even though yes, his CL was not good

good list otherwise though

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

How is Mbappe even in the discussion? He wasn't better for PSG and performed worse at the WC. No argument at all in his favor.

And Haaland isn't Ballon D'Or worthy either in my opinion. This isn't the Golden Boot. It is sad that he is even considered to begin with.

That's a bit harsh

 

[Gehrman]

RedRonaldo you're a good man, but come on now that should have zero bearing on the trophy even though yes, his CL was not good

good list otherwise though

Maradona was booed by a lot of Napoli fans after he scored his penalty vs Italy in the 1986 wc. Still though he was a hero. Messi had a subpar first season at PSG and a good 2nd one. He never wrote history there.

 

[Taribo's Gap]

RedRonaldo you're a good man, but come on now that should have zero bearing on the trophy even though yes, his CL was not good

good list otherwise though

It isn't. The Messi penalty point is silly as well and his decisive moments in the tournament were decidedly not penalties. These are the penalties he scored in the World Cup, not counting the shootouts:

• Saudi Arabia (Lost Anyway)
• Netherlands (Won in Shootout)
• Croatia (Won Handily)
• France (Won in Shootout)

On the basis of this, how can you say he relied mostly on penalties and penalty shootouts to win? Against Saudi they lost. Against the Netherlands he had what appeared to be a decisive assist to put his team in a comfortable winning position before a defensive meltdown. Against Croatia they won handily and he had another iconic assist to make it comfortable, so the penalty ended up being non-decisive. Against France he had a key pass to break things open for Di Maria's goal in addition to the penalty before defensive lapses allowed France back into the game. He then scored a go-ahead non-penalty goal in extra time before yet another defensive lapse allowed France back into the game again. They finally won it all in a penalty shootout. In the games where the penalties even mattered and his team won on shootouts, Messi had already done his part without penalties to put his team in a winning position and see the games out, but then defensive lapses occurred necessitating that Messi score his penalties in the shootouts to win.

How can this be held against him? This would amount to holding Messi accountable for defensive brain farts even though he had already done his part. It's a weak point. At best, you could try to argue that the penalties irreversibly changed the momentum of the games, but that is just grasping. To then, in the same list, call Mbappe's performance in the World Cup Final "probably the best ever" when was largely invisible for 80 minutes and his telling contributions included 2 penalties and a shootout penalty just shows the bias at work. How can you knock Messi for penalties while elevating Mbappe for the same thing?

And yes, the booing point is just laughable. Spoiled fans in the country you just defeated in the World Cup final booing you. Who could ever imagine? The biggest argument against Messi is that he simply is not as good a player as he used to be.

 

[Gehrman]

That's a bit harsh

Vey harsh imo. He's a striker. Scoring goals is what strikers are for. Bar some all-time greats, the 1st player you'd want in the team is the worlds best goalscorer.

 

[KirkDuyt]

I was wondering why this thread had so many pages, but now I realize it has become the, how sad was Ronaldo someone won this award in year X thread.

 

[heraklion]

Vey harsh imo. He's a striker. Scoring goals is what strikers are for.

Yes, that's what he was supposed to do in the CL, FA Cup, Super Cup semis & finals when his team scored 12 goals and him ghosting & scoring 0.

Bar some all-time greats, the 1st player you'd want in the team is the worlds best goalscorer.

That's not measured only by the total number of goals though. In which games you scored those goals, how often you carried your team when the rest of your team was performing poorly, how you performed in the most critical stages, your overall contribution in games when you don't score all matter. That's why for many, Kane and Mbappe are easily better than Haaland.

Benzema's 2021/22 season as a striker shows how you establish yourself as an undisputed GOAT level striker, that's also why nobody dares to call Benzema, Van Basten, R9, Kane, Thierry Henry etc. type of strikers tap-in merchants.

I'd say it seems it seems we have two types of strikers: the genius ones and more statpadding oriented ones, Haaland does not belong to the first group unlike R9, Van Basten, Romario, Benzema, Thierry Henry etc. Haaland represents more like the Gerd Muller group, but then again Muller would always show up in big games, finals and is one of the greatest big game changers ever.