I'll leave this pointless exercise now, we'll just have to see at the end of the season if he makes a serious mark on the PL or CL or continues to put in 1 very good performance every 5 or 6 games. I know what my money would be on.
Bad Berba's Back
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Stop being a joyless sod and just enjoy a brilliant weekend.
I think lack of sleep from the cricket is making me arguementative. I did enjoy the match despite evidence to the contrary.
Aye, the cricket was good fun though - well worth staying up for.
Re Berbatov - I suspect that we're going to see his usual one good game, one bad game routine. We'll never escape that. But, if he puts in this sort of performance say 20 times a season, then he'll win us some very important games...
aye, pisser I'm in work tomorrow and can't stay up, gonna record it and try to avoid the score tomorrow, doubt I'll manage it.
nothing would make me happier, I just see it as 4-5 times a season at the minute. If he could just put in performances pretty consistently against the average teams in the prem I'd be relatively happy with him
That's what he excelled at last season - he had a run between around Crimbo and March where he put the also rans to the sword with real regularity. No reason to see why he can't do that again.
We shall see.
As a slight aside, I don't think I've ever seen a United player fluctuate between sublime and awful in such a short timespan. He's prone to sudden and dramatic loss of confidence - which is why I thought it was a terrible move to rotate him so much after the Liverpool game...
perhaps, maybe the energy and movement of Anderson, Rooney, Nani and Valencia when he gets back will make him into this teams Cantona, but somehow a £15m move to Italy in January or the Summer seems far more likely.
TBH I don't remember watching any football in Feb and March apart from the CL (lost my father in Jan so didn't really give a shit) so you could well be right about that.
He'll not go in January. Even if he wasn't in SAF's long term plans, he's not going to rock the boat half way through the season. And the fact is, despite him being hit and miss, he's still produced enough class this season for us to say he's been a success (this season).
He had a really good run up until around March and then things went a bit wrong for him.
Like I said, it's all about confidence with the bloke. Ferguson said that he was happy with the strike pair, so don't feck about with it for the Blackpool game, I say. They're the worst backline in the league and they give the opposition space and time - Berbatov and Rooney could really go to town on them...
Hmmm, if a team was to come in with, say, a £20m bid in Jan I can see him cashing in, I remember SAF defending Veron vociferously right up until chelsea made a decent offer and he was off. SAF may try his best with players when they're here but he's not the sentimental type, if Hernandez continues to impress, Macheda continues to progress and Welbeck does well on loan he may see it as in the best interests of the club.
I honestly think the 'success' of this season is down to lower expectations, we've come to expect lethargy and blind alleys so when he doesn't do that it's a success. We needed his 3 goals against Liverpool but objectively they were in appauling form and completely devoid of confidence.
I agree that he'll start against blackpool, anything else would be the end of him here, but his mentality/confidence is a major part of the problem. Even if it is possible to build his confidence up enough we play 3 in midfield against the best teams, rooney has to play and he'll never good enough to sacrifice rooney out wide. I don't know if he'd be able to take the pressure of those games anyway but he's never going to get the chance whether or not.
p_ps_sock, I thought that you were measuring Berbatov's performances with the amount of goals he scored, and you thought that giving two more natural goalscorers a chance instead of him would be better for the team. I simply said that Berbatov offers more than just goals, and that you would obviously be disappointed with him unless he turns into RvN for a season and scores a phenomenal amount. If you can't see that he offers quite a bit for the team in our build up play then we'll agree to disagree.
Either way we obviously hope he has a great season
Either way we obviously hope he has a great season
Berbatov's biggest misfortune is that he is only really effective in a 442, a dated formation that the top teams are slowly but surely moving away from unless you're playing minnows at home.
On the flip side of that, a player like Anderson, who tends to generally show his best in a 3 man midfield is fortunate, as that is undoubtedly the shape of the future.
Berbatov would've been considered the best player in the world if he'd been born 15 years earlier.
On the flip side of that, a player like Anderson, who tends to generally show his best in a 3 man midfield is fortunate, as that is undoubtedly the shape of the future.
Berbatov would've been considered the best player in the world if he'd been born 15 years earlier.
The irony is that we didn't play 442 vs Blackburn. Rooney didn't play as a striker. He was our playmaker and completed more passes than any other player on the pitch. No player in the world who plays as a striker can complete 108 passes during a game, that's humanly impossible.
Attempted 108, 87 were successful (Ando completed 95 out of 99). Point still stands though.
United sure had a feck load of possession v Blackburn to accumulate that many passes
True, my bad. Still, 108 attempted passes is beyond what a striker can do during a single game. For instance, Drogba's average per game is about 15, max 20 attempted passes. You expect from the likes of Scholes and Xabi Alonso over 100 passes in a game.
I'd call what we played against Blackburn a 442. And I'd be interested to know how many passes Berbatov attempted as well, because I think it'd be high as well.
Rooney wasn't playing as a midfielder, he was playing deep 2nd striker.
Rooney wasn't playing as a midfielder, he was playing deep 2nd striker.
Berbatov attempted about 55, almost twice less than Rooney, which kind of confirms my point.
It doesn't confirm your point. You stated Drogba's passes hit around 15 per game, and Drogba plays as Chelsea's highest man up the pitch. On Saturday our highest man up the pitch attempted 55 passes, thus the deeper lying 2nd striker is obviously gonna have a much higher number of passes.
And anyway, Saturday was a total anomaly in terms of the amount of possession we enjoyed with virtually no pressure from Blackburn, those stats aren't usual, the game wasn't usual, and Rooney wasn't played as a midfielder.
It was a fluid, free flowing 422. At times it shifted to a 433 shape with Park, Carrick and Anderson making the mid 3 while Nani, Rooney and Berbatov attacked.
That's atrocious for 90 minutes on the pitch. Surely he could make more of an effort to bring people into the game. I know he's effective as it is, but that's a crap passing average
Average position has it something like this:
So yeah, basically what rwb's saying - they both played quite high up the pitch and quite close.
Worth noting that Nani was the furthest player forward, though, as it does suggest that neither were quite 'strikers', and Rooney involved himself a lot more as a playmaker.
Not that it really matters.
Code:
Carrick
Anderson
Berbatov Rooney Park
NaniSo yeah, basically what rwb's saying - they both played quite high up the pitch and quite close.
Worth noting that Nani was the furthest player forward, though, as it does suggest that neither were quite 'strikers', and Rooney involved himself a lot more as a playmaker.
Not that it really matters.
Also worth noting there Nanis consistent high up field position ahead of even the strikers is very similar to how a certain previous Portuguese star at United used to operate from the same flank.
p_ps_sock, I thought that you were measuring Berbatov's performances with the amount of goals he scored, and you thought that giving two more natural goalscorers a chance instead of him would be better for the team. I simply said that Berbatov offers more than just goals, and that you would obviously be disappointed with him unless he turns into RvN for a season and scores a phenomenal amount. If you can't see that he offers quite a bit for the team in our build up play then we'll agree to disagree.
Either way we obviously hope he has a great season
no, my posts about goals were only in response to MUFCGal's repeatedly saying "12 goals in 17 games", which I was pointing out is misleading and taking the 2 games he's scored 8 in away only reinforce the inconsistency.
Anyway, he's never going to be a 30 goals a season striker, but apart from the glaring misses he quite often comes up with when lacking confidence he slows the game down way too often, even when we're breaking fast, when the game is crying out for energy and drive he stands on the ball 35 yards from goal just long enough for the opposition to get 10 men behind the ball and mark everyone up. The moaning at players with a fifth of his experience (and in some cases half his natural talent) does my head in too.
My points about Hernandez and Macheda are not to do with them being more natural goal scorers, it's simply to do with age and the future, I feel he offers us so little on occassions that we'd be far better using those games to bring these players on.
In many ways I fail to see his purpose in the squad, a player of his type should be a game breaker against organised/big sides where space is at a premium and we need a bit of magic but those are the games he completely anonymous in (at best). The times when he is effective (or looks good anyway) are games in which pace, drive, energy and doing the basics right are at least (and sometimes more) effective. Besides which I think we have a genuine superstar in the making on our hands with Anderson and I think playing 3 from carrick/fletcher/scholes/anderson with rooney, nani and valencia suits us much better in most games. If could mentally handle being second string and come in with Ole's attitude (note attitude, not goals) then he'd be almost worth the money we paid, but so far he hasn't been able to.
Of course me making these points almost certainly will mean he'll come good this season and start ripping teams apart on a regular basis, such are my prophetic skills.
can we not just appreciate his game on saturday instead of all this negativity?
i fail to see how we can criticize him just now
i fail to see how we can criticize him just now
This whole bit about slowing our game down etc., etc., is mildly irritating. Have you ever stopped to consider that the reason he holds the ball many times is to wait for players to come up the pitch, to open themselves up for a pass?!? I am sure that he knows better than any of us if he has a chance to try and beat a defender or if there is a good pass to be made.
If you watch closely how he plays, he always looks for the good pass to teammates who are in a better position to either score or to take the attack to the next level in its development. His pass efficiency is quite good exactly for these reasons. If you take the time to closely watch the matches and the attacking moves he is involved in, you will see this.
As the most recent proof of this, watch the build-up to goals 4 and 6 in the Blackburn match.
I am predicting an EPL goal tally of between 22-25 goals for him this season, barring injuries.
Yep, and it seems that some people have targeted Berba as the outlet for their moaning.
Btw, Happy Birthday Erica! Hope you have a great one. Best wishes!
Consistency is the key with Berbatov. He needs to score in more games. He hasn't scored in what, 9 or 10, before the Blackburn game?
However, with Rooney back, he could quite easily get that consistency. The last 2 games they have started together, Berbatov has scored 8. I doubt that is a coincidence.
Their partnership looked brilliant at the weekend. Berbatov was outstanding, Rooney was pretty damn good himself. And they were playing off each other, and completely tearing through what is usually a good defence time after time.
I have never been a huge Berbatov fan and overall have been very underwhelmed by him, but I have never been more excited about his prospects then after the Blackburn game. And that's not because of his goals, it was his partnership with Rooney. If Berbatov hadn't of scored but had linked up that well with Rooney I'd be saying the same thing. Their partnership was brilliant at the weekend. His workrate against Blackburn was also easily the best he has ever had for the club in one game. If he can build on this and gain some consistency, he could be brilliant for the club.
However, with Rooney back, he could quite easily get that consistency. The last 2 games they have started together, Berbatov has scored 8. I doubt that is a coincidence.
Their partnership looked brilliant at the weekend. Berbatov was outstanding, Rooney was pretty damn good himself. And they were playing off each other, and completely tearing through what is usually a good defence time after time.
I have never been a huge Berbatov fan and overall have been very underwhelmed by him, but I have never been more excited about his prospects then after the Blackburn game. And that's not because of his goals, it was his partnership with Rooney. If Berbatov hadn't of scored but had linked up that well with Rooney I'd be saying the same thing. Their partnership was brilliant at the weekend. His workrate against Blackburn was also easily the best he has ever had for the club in one game. If he can build on this and gain some consistency, he could be brilliant for the club.
Nail on the head.
Every time they've played together this season, we've looked full of goals, even when Rooney wasn't playing particularly well. Fergie got derided by some on here for suggesting he had tinkered too much up front and it was time to give Rooney and Berbatov a run of games. His decisions has been emphatically proved correct since (which is usually the way these things work out)
Strange comments in this thread.
I reckn Berbatov's proven he can be excellent with or without Rooney this season.
He's got a better understanding of his team mates, and the play has been going through him a lot more. Basically, we've learn't how to play through him, instead of play in spite of him.
He still has the odd game too many where he seems to go off on his own little tangent, and then mopes about when it inevitably doesn't work, but that's always been the way with him. Even at Spurs.
I reckn Berbatov's proven he can be excellent with or without Rooney this season.
He's got a better understanding of his team mates, and the play has been going through him a lot more. Basically, we've learn't how to play through him, instead of play in spite of him.
He still has the odd game too many where he seems to go off on his own little tangent, and then mopes about when it inevitably doesn't work, but that's always been the way with him. Even at Spurs.
Where did you find that overview of players average position? I've been looking for something like that.
Gamecast: Manchester United v Blackburn Rovers - English Premier League - ESPN Soccernet
They have them for all the games.
tactical information > average position
Guess who's back. Back again.
I wouldn't say he was crap but I would have expected him to put away at least one of those chances.
Just one of those days I guess. Still played some silky stuff here and there.
I wouldn't say he was crap but I would have expected him to put away at least one of those chances.
Just one of those days I guess. Still played some silky stuff here and there.
Bad Berba isn't back at all. He worked his bollocks off tonight and it didn't happen for him. That sort of game happens for loads of strikers.
Ridiculous, but inevitable, bump.
Ridiculous, but inevitable, bump.
I liked that it was like... a good Bad Berba performance.
I suppose I'm saying he didn't lack for effort, and wasn't otherwise horribly shit.
I suppose I'm saying he didn't lack for effort, and wasn't otherwise horribly shit.
One of those nights, glad it was in this game.
Wouldn't say it was Bad Berba, just an unlucky Berba.
Exactly!
He looked lively and on another day could have had another 5.
This wasn't a bad berba performance - it was just an unfortunate one, i'd be concerned if the chances weren't there but they are coming along nicely and as long as he takes the fair share of them he will be a great asset to out team and play a big part in the title race and cup competitions.
It may be a "bump in jest" but it'll attract all the spastics.
Berbatov does seem to go front one extreme to another within the space of two games, more so thNan most players. That really should be his aim. To get more consistent in all aspects of his game.
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