Will try to respond to all without missing anything as late at my place, will contribute more tomorrow
B2B Draft SF: Jim Beam vs Enigma/Theon
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
I need one too, but will wait for tomorrow, working day unfortunately coming up fast
Fair play.
I said most things on my mind anyway.
I would admittedly favour Beam’s team to win a tournament, but in a one-off game, with every player hitting their peak ability, I favour Team En/Theon.
Moreover, as you said, the Magic Square/(or any narrow box/diamond midfield) is very dependant on the fullbacks attacking/contributing higher (whether it was Amoros, Battiston, Bossis...etc), providing support and width. How much will Facchetti/Carlos Alberto be allowed this licence to overlap /leave their defensive line against the greatest wingforward and the most creative winger on the flanks?
We’ve seen Romario perform sensationally alongside Ronaldo, Stoichkov, Edmundo, Bebeto and Laudrup... so I have no problem with him playing with Messi (the best goalscoring/creative player I’ve ever seen) or Cristiano Ronaldo.
Moreover, as you said, the Magic Square/(or any narrow box/diamond midfield) is very dependant on the fullbacks attacking/contributing higher (whether it was Amoros, Battiston, Bossis...etc), providing support and width. How much will Facchetti/Carlos Alberto be allowed this licence to overlap /leave their defensive line against the greatest wingforward and the most creative winger on the flanks?
Yes, undoubtedly Best and Fenomeno bring a lot of quality and if you ask me a side with Best and Fenomeno would definitely better your attack, considering we're into real fine margins and they are playing against the very best defenders in history. We're not recreating a historical side or voting who has a better stage Platini or Messi rather than who will win the encounter of those fantasy sides.
Vogts played 270 minutes against Blokhin shutting him down. Would Vogts have had a tougher time against Best - I'd definitely say yes, despite not being a better fit in your side.
I'm not sure how you would come to this conclusion. He's rated pretty well to be in a SF in an all time draft and in this company.
Again we don't need Romario and Ronaldo to run like mad men to close players down. We're not playing tiki - taka Barca. I've provided a long, long post on Messi's creative side and it is not only about him in this game. There is no clash of characters, no overlapping in zones, but rather creative players and deadly finishers in our side.
You talked about pushing us wide as some kind of a master plan being to negate GOAT forwards, but let's break up the diamond you are sporting as some kind of Kryptonite:
Weaknesses
- Lack of Width: The Diamond is a very narrow formation due to the lack of advanced wide players. This means that the flanks can only be used during attacks by either a drifting center forward or midfielder, or a fullback. The first option reduces the potency of the attack by a great margin, so fullbacks are the only viable option.
- Exposure to Counterattacks: When the fullbacks go on the overlap to compensate for a lack of wide attacking players, the backline is left exposed to a potential counterattack. This is slightly mitigated by the defensive midfielder who sits back, but even a 3-v-3 counterattacking situation can easily go bad for the defending team.
- Physical Strain: The Diamond requires extremely fit central midfielders to cover ground, and fullbacks who can bomb up and down the pitch with ease. This may put a strain on the players, resulting in a possible decrease in efficiency over the course of the game or season.
To reiterate on above points:
There are a couple of main weaknesses to the diamond formation. Firstly, if the two central midfielders are narrow, it lacks a lot of width and concedes dangerous overlap opportunities on the flanks(something you would happily do). However, should one of the central midfielders pull wide to cover the full-back, large spaces can appear in the middle of the pitch. This means that the formation can be extremely vulnerable defensively. Using Liverpool as an example (as harms did), it could be argued that a less cavalier formation might well have been the key to winning the title; using the diamond, the team were counter-attacked ruthlessly at both Chelsea and Crystal Palace, both games proving extremely costly.
The diamond formation also demands a huge workload. On the full-backs, who are given the sole responsibility for an entire wing of the pitch; on the box-to-box players, who have to make a huge effort in both defence and attack; and finally, on the deep-lying playmaker. In this system, the deepest midfielder is the start point of the attacks, but often also has to act as the last line of defence – an auxiliary third centre-back. Once more, we can look at Liverpool (for the last time, I promise) and Steven Gerrard’s infamous slip to see how costly a mistake in this position can be.
Attacking fullbacks or wingbacks you use give you the width of your team. This, however, leaves gaps in the four-man defense, placing greater pressure on the central defenders and the lone defensive midfielder.
In essence you have much less margin for error:
- One mistake leaves huge opportunity for Romario, Messi, Ronaldo, Figo to exploit.
- Your side midfielders will be overworked and can't be at two places at the same time. The midfield domination you base your whole strategy on will need your midfielders to put a huge workload and again covering an absolute elite attackers.
- Very vulnerable on counter. One pass from deep overlaps your high up full backs leaving 3 vs 3 scenarios that could be easily exploited by our forwards.
And last but not least:
For all the comparison to Messi/Barca and other stuff Iniesta didn't play as a side midfielder in a diamond did he? He is not perfect in defensive sense - yes he will press he will contribute but he will not chase up and down players like a mad man, Davids style, to compensate for a player wide.
On top of that you criticized our CB pair due to being ball playing defenders, yet now you give it as a huge advantage having forwards that will press high. Having forwards that will press high against CB's that are very comfortable on the ball (the very best probably) will again leave huge gaps behind and if they are beaten you will easily be hit on a counter.
We aren't building this side around Messi and there lies the difference. Messi is integral part - of course but that doesn't mean he's our only source that would win us the game - far from it! It was never our intention. In terms of who is winning the game I'd say it's one way street and I just can't see you outscoring us.
You talk about Platini, but he comes in a zone where we have one of the best DM's in the game in Redondo, one of the best defensive box to box in Davids who will close him down in no time, and on top of that he's facing Figueroa and Baresi next and Buffon as the last line of defence.
Compare it on the other side where you have 2 full backs high up, Scirea combating Cristiano in the air:
and older Desailly fending off peak Romario:
You are doing a fantastic job defending your team and to me overselling your team, kudos for that, but proper encounter between the sides I just can't see it as well as not taking the likes of Messi, Romario, Baresi, Figueroa, Romario, Davids and Redondo in your side. I find that pretty hard to believe.
Yeah, case closed really.
Yeah I don't have that.
Don't have that too.
That also.
In essence, you have no system.
Cheers, mate. I've put a more descriptive post above. In essence the opposition will gladly push us outside - giving space on the wings creating those overlapping scenarios and 1 on 1's. If the side midfielder goes to close down our attacker that will leave space in the middle. It's just how it is really, despite work rate or ground covered.
Hand on heart I find it hard to believe you would take Iniesta ahead of Davids of all people as left sided midfielder in a diamond mate.
Anyhow I've made my points above and will catch up tomorrow. Good night and good luck!
Why my fullbacks wouldn't attack if another team doesn't press them?
We are not judging which star player has the better platform to perform?
Ok, can't post much tomorrow, so good luck.
I don’t understand your question, sorry - Pressing isn’t the only way to concern a fullback.
Because am not sending Ashley Young to go forward. Lack of pressing will make it easier for him, not more difficult. This narrative that you can't go forward because there is Ronaldo behind you is strange to me. They were GOAT fullbacks for a reason. They were brilliant in timing, passing, not losing the ball. Lack of defensive work from winger will make it easier for them.
And btw. Blokhin tendency to stretch the defence going left will fit Facchetti offensive side. Every feckin piece in this team fits to bring the best of other player. I can't even believe that someone dumb (and often drunk) as I could put such a team. I don't know where to upgrade it even. Maybe Kohler for Desailly?
Enigma wouldn't have such problems. Would put Best and problem solved. More fitting? Who gives a feck, it's Best.
Last edited:
you are not dumb, you are special.
Unfeckinbeliveble. For the 3rd or 4th time.
One thing is sure, if the game was played 10 times you would be moaning and pointing at the score in every single one of them.
Wtf? There was a big fecking warning sign when I played it in 1st and 2nd round while building around Platini. This is "throw it and see what will stick tactics" or as I called it Arbiritrium circle of nonsense.
I don't care about your GOAT's, fanfares or entering in Jerusalem with that team. As I said it, please put your best creative player/Messi against Rijkaard. But my formation is wrong? Because it is veeeery narow.
I’m not sure what you are on about but being narrow is one of the very known deficiencies of the diamond. It’s not some revolutionary system that no one knows nothing about and has been for ages.
Both your full backs will have a lot to do and you are vulnerable on counter it’s just what it is.
Also to quote @harms on Facchetti he wasn’t as good as Maldini defensively despite being one of the GOAT full backs.
So yes your system has flaws and running up and down the wing for the whole game is very taxing on the body especially when you have so many explosive players on the other side capable of punishing every mistake - Messi peeling wide in that arena and one of the best wingers in the game in Figo.
Every system has it's flaws, but it is about getting most of it and fitting the right players.
And there are pros and cons to every system. Am willing to take the pressure on the flanks if that means I will shut down the middle of the park. I can't see you winning this if you don't own the midfield and Messi being in his element. He can peel wide all game long.
I wanted Facchetti because of Blokhin tendency to stretch your defence and be a huge goalthreat when he comes in. Could have picked Brehme, both brilliant, but that decided for me.
Am not sure what are you about when my system is well known in advance. Like, hey am not sure, but you are playing Platini here!?
Again it's not about just the system along but how you get pat the opposition who will score most. We aren't a remake draft here and it's not only Messi that you need stopping we also have Cristiano, Figo and Romario perfectly capable of deciding any game.
And as soon as this match is over if you go through the finals you'll pick a GOAT and change your tune, I'm pretty sure about that, despite Blokhin being "perfect for the role"
In this system
Rijkaard > Redondo (apologies to my favorite player)
Tigana > Davids (proven in the system, chemistry with Platini)
Can't fit Messi with Platini
Rate both strikers in this system higher then Romario. Had a chance to pick Best, Il Fenomeno, Van Basten
Baresi, hell yeah, but I love Scirea with Platini.
And as soon as this match is over if you go through the finals you'll pick a GOAT and change your tune, I'm pretty sure about that, despite Blokhin being "perfect for the role"
You would lose that bet.
Tigana is not playing as a left sided box to box midfielder - Iniesta is. A DLP in a diamond is better than DM. Your side midfielders have do be defensively great and cover an awful amount of ground - Davids can, Iniesta is not that type.
In a high taxing system Iniesta is actually not that good of a fit for that LCM role there against a GOAT side as you might think.
Iniesta is perfect to take some steem from Platini. His playmaking, passing and being a goalthreat on his own brings more to the table then with Davids. He had imensse work-rate also playing in a pressing system.
And it is more of a 4-2-2-2. Davids can't be an upgrade.
I think you would remove Platini in the end the way you're going.
Messi was playing in a high pressing system that doesn't make him the best pick of all players in history in terms of work rate and defensive nous. Iniesta is not some kind of defensive monster to mind that left flank of yours. If Facchetti goes up your left flank is exposed, simple as. You have either Rijkaard or Iniesta to cover him. If you have Davids is much better considering his defensive acumen and that of Iniesta.
If you have Rijkaard covering for him, Messi is left alone in the hole which is the purpose of us putting him there and him finding space.
I can't argue with you objectively trying to convince voters that Iniesta is better than Davids of all people as a side midfielder in a diamond. It's really a non sense.
I didn't even try to convince anyone, you brought it up. It seems most people like him in that role.
Facchetti will go up if your right side is open. Simple as.
Basically, you would change around 5 or 6 of my players here?
Err, it's not a proper diamond though, it's an assymetric one with one advanced B2B and one defensive B2B. A proper diamond has two balanced B2B's which Davids was.
Davids can never be the better advanced B2B in that system. He can be the defensive one.
Iniesta is probably the best player all time to play in that position in this system.
No, actually you did - saying you won't take any of our players in our side, which is frankly laughable comment.
Our right side will never be open as we have a defensive full back a right orthodox winger and a player that will also attack the inside/outside right channel in Messi.
Does that mean Facchetti will never attack then?
I would say iniesta is as good a shout as any for a giresse upgrade.
In this system no. But after all, you do get the love for JB team, so no need to explain it.
I mean Davids instead of Iniesta? Laugh all you want.
Stop banging about the diamond, it is really not a classical diamond. Will buy you one after we finish this.
Erm, no.
Why do people delve on this? Is it the remake draft?
Is Iniesta the right type to cover for uber attacking full back on the side?
It's like the opposition isn't even a factor in this game.
Then who is covering for him on the side? Isn't it Iniesta or Rijkaard? Or you don't cover him and hope he travels faster than the ball?
Facchetti is an uber attacking full back now? 
Why do people delve on this? Is it the remake draft?
Is Iniesta the right type to cover for uber attacking full back on the side?
It's like the opposition isn't even a factor in this game.
Fachetti is an all time GOAT and use to man a flank alone. He knows how to time his runs, he is also up against figo as vogts won't add much offensively.
I would say between the pair they can handle it defensively as fachetti will only be going up when beam has the ball.
A Ronaldo, di Maria and Marcelo flank won the cl. All of beam players are an upgrade defensively
The ball is in his feet?
Figo and Messi can double on Facchetti as mentioned. No one is disputing Facchetti manning his flank, but he would need support. In this case Iniesta is the one to support him which is not the best of fits.
Cristiano, Brehme, Davids are fantastic upgrade on what you mentioned but gets zero love here.
Facchetti needs to constantly support the attack it's what it is in a narrow formation(diamond or carree magique), which leaves gaps behind, can't have it both ways.
And when your team loses it and is on the back foot? Or you will have 100% possession in your plan?
Lads just to confirm, I was assuming my vote doesn't count as I was in the other semi.
But given that I got knocked out what's the rule here?
But given that I got knocked out what's the rule here?
So, no one is helping him then, ok sound plan!
You can vote mate as you aren't part of it anymore I think it's the same like any other draft we played when one of the teams gets eliminated.