B2B Draft SF: Jim Beam vs Enigma/Theon

Who will win the match?

  • Total voters
    24
  • Poll closed .
Jim Beam said:
And if I cut Messi oxygen from your team which is the plan you will lose. To inferior side by your opinion.

My team is absolutely better, you have better individuals.
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It's not only Messi as an individual. We have plenty of creativity in the side. Redondo as you said can dominate the midfield, he has shown it in the past. Figo is one of the most creative wingers in the game. Cristiano obviously is someone who also can create chances for his team mates. In any case this is exactly the opposite of what you imply - we don't depend on a single goalscorer or creator in our team. Anyone from our forwards can decide the game.

On other hand you depend on Platini having a huge game in the most stacked zone on the pitch, which is the big difference.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Is this some new argument strategy that you are on mate? :lol:

If you are going to act like a cnut in order just to win the game I won't really be in the way so won't really go 6-7 pages as you reckon. ;)
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Am a cnut and you are talking about being 3 votes behind? Remarkable.
 
Jim Beam said:
Am a cnut and you are talking about being 3 votes behind? Remarkable.
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You started the vote liners from the off mate and who voted for who. Anyhow will leave some time for neutrals to have their say.
 
Enigma_87 said:
On other hand you depend on Platini having a huge game in the most stacked zone on the pitch, which is the big difference.
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Eh? Am having 2 brilliant strikers that are nightmare to mark roaming all over the pitch.

There is stacked zone in this game, but Messi is in it.
 
Enigma_87 said:
You started the vote liners from the off mate and who voted for who. Anyhow will leave some time for neutrals to have their say.
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Wut? it was an argument against your opinion that you understand the team. You implied the score.

Ok, we will put the breaks on this one. As long as you not moaning about being behind. Deal?
 
Jim Beam said:
Eh? Am having 2 brilliant strikers that are nightmare to mark roaming all over the pitch.

There is stacked zone in this game, but Messi is in it.
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Pound for pound all of our attackers are better than what you are fielding here. And all of them could decide the game. You said we are depending on Messi, which is of course not true. Platini is your best player and plays in a very congested space against our 2 CB's as last resort. Love Kalle obviously but he comes against a stacked left side of ours. Vogts has perfect record against Blokhin and is the right type of full back to have in order to stop him.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Pound for pound all of our attackers are better than what you are fielding here. And all of them could decide the game. You said we are depending on Messi, which is of course not true. Platini is your best player and plays in a very congested space against our 2 CB's as last resort. Love Kalle obviously but he comes against a stacked left side of ours. Vogts has perfect record against Blokhin and is the right type of full back to have in order to stop him.
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As I said, the plan is to shut the midfield. And the team can do that. If I didn't get Rijkaard this draft would be over for me, but I did.

Will you go through the middle or attack the flanks btw?
 
Enigma_87 said:
If you are going to act like a cnut in order just to win the game I won't really be in the way so won't really go 6-7 pages as you reckon. ;)
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Deja Vu! I remember this happening to me the last time I went 3-4 votes up very early in a semifinal.

Welcome to the club @Jim Beam :lol:
 
Jim Beam said:
As I said, the plan is to shut the midfield. And the team can do that. If I didn't get Rijkaard this draft would be over for me, but I did.

Will you go through the middle or attack the flanks btw?
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I think you lost an edge with leaving Cristiano to us. Blokhin as good as he was is in pretty tough company here. If you plan to contain us, considering how many goalscoring options we have on the pitch I can see this going one way.

Romario, Cristiano and Messi doesn't need lot of chances to decide the game.

We don't depend on a formation or attack constantly on one side, makes no sense for us to do so considering the amount of variety and options we have in attack. Obviously as yours attackers will roam, so will ours looking for space.

You can't leave your full backs isolated or one on one with our forwards so that midfield domination will have to be offset of the fact that your midfielders will have to help wide a lot.
 
Enigma_87 said:
You can't leave your full backs isolated or one on one with our forwards so that midfield domination will have to be offset of the fact that your midfielders will have to help wide a lot.
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Why would I help Facchetti and Alberto one on one? The plan is to force you wide and I think that my midfield is superior to yours, so I can do that.

So, basically your plan is to give the ball to your pound for pound better players and they will break it. Cool.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Romario has also excellent movement mate. Not sure what Sheva will bring here more than Romario will.
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I don't think that Romario will move out of Ronaldo's way or go and spend significant amount of time on the wings. Romario's off the ball movement is dedicated to one thing and one thing only — getting Romario to goalscoring positions (and he was incredible at it). Ronaldo spent his entire career playing with less egoistical strikers like Saha, Rooney, Tevez, Benzema & lately Mandzukic. It's not a coincidence that the likes of Ruud and Higuain (twice) were shipped off and Madrid never went for, say, Agüero, when Ronaldo was playing there.
 
Went for Jim Beam in the end. This side just feels like Galacticos 2.0.

By the way, the reason why Messi still nominally starts on the right is because in the defensive phase it’s better to have a non-existence presence out wide rather than centrally — here Scirea, Rijkaard and Tigana can move through the center with little to no pressure. Davids is the only cog in that unit that is well (perfectly) suited to a more aggressive pressing, but he shouldn’t do it — Redondo won’t support him and the opposition will welcome additional space.

  • 3 players that won’t participate in the defensive side of the game (while on the other side literally everyone puts in a shift)
  • Wrong type (in my opinion) of a striker next to 2 best players on the pitch
  • I don’t like the use of Figo, he’s shoehorned there like Beckham was at Madrid, with huge responsibility of covering for the incoherent front unit
  • Buffon-Baresi-Figueroa is probably the toughest central unit of all-time, but it’s not miles ahead of Dasayev-Scirea-Desailly with Rijkaard ahead - both are so close to an absolute ideal

So many points of criticism are, in a weird way, a compliment — because I’ve had to think of all of them simply to justify me not voting for E.T.

I think their team would win almost every encounter but for this one. JB’s side is a thing of beauty and it’s probably my favorite non-harms side that I’ve seen on here.
 
@harms I can understand the reasoning behind it but this is in fact an all time draft.

At the end of the day we vote for who we would think will make a difference here and I’m pretty surprised by the vote outcome to be honest. Not riled up about losing the game as mentioned but if this game is played 10 times who do you honestly see end up winning? You mention galacticos 2. Yet we have seen many stacked teams dominating the game even with many individuals that don’t put a shift in. In fact we see football nowadays being dominated by super teams and the scenario of underdog winning is a bit less favourable, or at least my take on it.

Caree magique is far from a perfect system from historical perspective. It’s hardly a system that dominated the game, yet we see here dominating GOAT forwards and defenders. Makes little sense if you ask me.

Just going from the caf vote so far there is a clear distinction between a back line of Buffon, Figueroa and Baresi and what the opposition is. You say the margin is not that big but it’s still a margin. The margin between the attackers is even bigger and yet its hardly taken into consideration.

It’s probably a new draft trend to value lesser players as they are most likely to not create ‘issues’ on the pitch compared to those who have more of a character or that’s how I understand it, but in reality Messi’s Barca and Ronaldo’s real are far from perfect sides in historical point of view.

You mention Messi, but again he’s not the only one making a difference here. Cristina k in the air has big advantage over Scirea and Figo is one of the best crossers of the ball(same with Brehme on the other side). Romario is still one of the greatest box strikers and Desailly as a stopper (older Desailly) is hardly the best fit to contain him.

I see more focus in finding issues in our side than looking at the actual match up if I’m really blunt here.
 
Enigma_87 said:
At the end of the day we vote for who we would think will make a difference here and I’m pretty surprised by the vote outcome to be honest. Not riled up about losing the game as mentioned but if this game is played 10 times who do you honestly see end up winning?
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It is impossible to say
 
harms said:
I don't think that Romario will move out of Ronaldo's way or go and spend significant amount of time on the wings. Romario's off the ball movement is dedicated to one thing and one thing only — getting Romario to goalscoring positions (and he was incredible at it). Ronaldo spent his entire career playing with less egoistical strikers like Saha, Rooney, Tevez, Benzema & lately Mandzukic. It's not a coincidence that the likes of Ruud and Higuain (twice) were shipped off and Madrid never went for, say, Agüero, when Ronaldo was playing there.
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I don’t agree with that at all mate. Romario changed more clubs than Tiger Woods and didn’t look out of place in any. He played with a plethora of strikers, number 10’s, SS, target men and saying he won’t adapt seems very very off to put it mildly.
 
Jim Beam said:
It is impossible to say
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Well even if it sounds too cocky I don’t see it as close mate. Obviously you will disagree but Romario, Cristiano and Messi are far more reliable to out score the opposition, especially not facing Baresi and Figueroa on the other end. :)

Yes we can nitpick here and there but you can deny the obvious difference in quality in both attacks.
 
Jim Beam said:
The last charge...

Going down swinging, I admire that
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Well it would be good just to see the reasoning behind the votes mate, as I said don’t mind losing but would appreciate at least some feedback. :)
 
Enigma_87 said:
Well even if it sounds too cocky I don’t see it as close mate. Obviously you will disagree but Romario, Cristiano and Messi are far more reliable to out score the opposition, especially not facing Baresi and Figueroa on the other end. :)

Yes we can nitpick here and there but you can deny the obvious difference in quality in both attacks.
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Nah, it isn't cocky. I mean I would defend that team if it is mine.

I just see mine working better as a unit, that's all.
 
harms said:
By the way, the reason why Messi still nominally starts on the right is because in the defensive phase it’s better to have a non-existence presence out wide rather than centrally — here Scirea, Rijkaard and Tigana can move through the center with little to no pressure. Davids is the only cog in that unit that is well (perfectly) suited to a more aggressive pressing, but he shouldn’t do it — Redondo won’t support him and the opposition will welcome additional space.

  • 3 players that won’t participate in the defensive side of the game (while on the other side literally everyone puts in a shift)
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Good points.

harms said:
I don’t like the use of Figo, he’s shoehorned there like Beckham was at Madrid, with huge responsibility of covering for the incoherent front unit
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Think Figo is more flexible than Beckham. I liked his fit a lot there.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Well it would be good just to see the reasoning behind the votes mate, as I said don’t mind losing but would appreciate at least some feedback. :)
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defensive wise as a team the difference between two is astonishing....i thought you were weak in our game as well and then you added Madrid Cristiano as well. Beam wins 8 out of 10 times IMO
 
@Enigma_87 did you guys consider playing messi as a false 9 striker or right winger?

Romario, laudrup, stoichkov worked. I dont see why romario, messi and ronaldo won't work. It's a suuped up version of that trio.

Although figo is a bit redundant.
 
Jim Beam said:
How will you break a diamond?

Third time I ask.
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Diamond has many disadvantages. First you are dependent a lot on Facchetti and Carlos Alberto providing width which will lace gaps behind. You need Tigana and Iniesta to cover wide and that will leave spaces in the middle. Generally if I create an all time side rarely I’d use a diamond because defensively against GOAT attackers it will require a lot going in your way to cover all those gaps left on the flanks. We have Cristiano, Brehme, Messi, Figo operating in those areas and peeling wide . One of the best wide players in history. You say you are forcing us wide but that’s really not a solution for you. All those that I mention can beat a man or two with ease, that creates a numerical advantage that would require you to have a spare man running to cover.

You say crossing is not an issue for you. Cristiano vs Scirea is a big advantage for us.

We won’t cross at every opportunity. You know players like Messi, Cristiano and Figo are way smarter than that. Forcing your midfield and full backs to defend wide will open gaps for you in the defensive phase, which we can punish.

Right back at you - how do you reckon breaking our defence?
 
Šjor Bepo said:
defensive wise as a team the difference between two is astonishing....i thought you were weak in our game as well and then you added Madrid Cristiano as well. Beam wins 8 out of 10 times IMO
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You had a higher quality attack though. Also from Rivaldo to Cristiano it’s hardly a difference in the work rate department. We also have a defensive right back JB has two attacking full backs in a system that is hugely dependent on full backs providing width, yet you have no problem with that?
 
MJJ said:
@Enigma_87 did you guys consider playing messi as a false 9 striker or right winger?

Romario, laudrup, stoichkov worked. I dont see why romario, messi and ronaldo won't work. It's a suuped up version of that trio.

Although figo is a bit redundant.
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Romario worked with pretty much everybody mate. The only way I can see Romario not working is being isolated on top without much creativity behind him - this is not the case here. Figo brings a lot of work rate and width on the right for Messi to exploit fully the right inside channel.

Maybe people see the big images in the formation but with two uber attacking full backs in a diamond who are expected to provide a lot of width in attack leaving spaces behind is somehow not an issue despite the opposition fielding Messi, Ronaldo, Figo and Brehme wide.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Diamond has many disadvantages. First you are dependent a lot on Facchetti and Carlos Alberto providing width which will lace gaps behind. You need Tigana and Iniesta to cover wide and that will leave spaces in the middle. Generally if I create an all time side rarely I’d use a diamond because defensively against GOAT attackers it will require a lot going in your way to cover all those gaps left on the flanks. We have Cristiano, Brehme, Messi, Figo operating in those areas and peeling wide . One of the best wide players in history. You say you are forcing us wide but that’s really not a solution for you. All those that I mention can beat a man or two with ease, that creates a numerical advantage that would require you to have a spare man running to cover.

You say crossing is not an issue for you. Cristiano vs Scirea is a big advantage for us.

We won’t cross at every opportunity. You know players like Messi, Cristiano and Figo are way smarter than that. Forcing your midfield and full backs to defend wide will open gaps for you in the defensive phase, which we can punish.

Right back at you - how do you reckon breaking our defence?
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I absolutely love the argument how my FB won't go forward because of your wingers. Like am sending Phil Jones and not 2 GOAT fullbacks.

You try to break diamond by making triangles in the midfield btw.

How will I break your defence? As explained in OP.
 
Enigma_87 said:
In fact we see football nowadays being dominated by super teams and the scenario of underdog winning is a bit less favourable, or at least my take on it.
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Liverpool has just won the CL with tons of good/decent players in a high-pressing coherent teams and Messi, unquestionably the best individual around, with many incredibly talented players, failed to achieve anything in Europe and internationally for years now. City, which plays the best football in the world, has all their attacking stars always involved in the pressing game; Agüero even lost his starting place to a youngster before he understood the need to adapt.

More so, it’s Messi’s role in defence that is often a key to defeating Barcelona. It sounds absurd, but this is not a criticism of Messi, whose strengths outweigh any of his weaknesses by a huge margin; it’s a criticism of his managers and, even more so, of the system with “star” players, and the rigid separation of defensive and offensive players. And that 4-4-2 by Valverde fails to perform because players who are supposed to cover for Messi’s weaknesses, aren’t capable of it — Suarez doesn’t run as much (and Romario won’t either), Rakitic doesn’t have the legs to cover 2 positions in a hybrid role etc.
 
Jim Beam said:
Thought so. Cheers.
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Again not sure how you came to the conclusion that diamond is somehow the perfect formation here against a GOAT filled side.
Jim Beam said:
I absolutely love the argument how my FB won't go forward because of your wingers. Like am sending Phil Jones and not 2 GOAT fullbacks.

You try to break diamond by making triangles in the midfield btw.

How will I break your defence? As explained in OP.
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It’s not that we don’t want your full backs going forward - it’s exactly what we expect and we would love you to do. No man is faster than the ball and then leaving that space is exactly what a side like ours can exploit.
 
harms said:
Liverpool has just won the CL with tons of good/decent players in a high-pressing coherent teams and Messi, unquestionably the best individual around, with many incredibly talented players, failed to achieve anything in Europe and internationally for years now. City, which plays the best football in the world, has all their attacking stars always involved in the pressing game; Agüero even lost his starting place to a youngster before he understood the need to adapt.

More so, it’s Messi’s role in defence that is often a key to defeating Barcelona. It sounds absurd, but this is not a criticism of Messi, whose strengths outweigh any of his weaknesses by a huge margin; it’s a criticism of his managers and, even more so, of the system with “star” players, and the rigid separation of defensive and offensive players. And that 4-4-2 by Valverde fails to perform because players who are supposed to cover for Messi’s weaknesses, aren’t capable of it — Suarez doesn’t run as much (and Romario won’t either), Rakitic doesn’t have the legs to cover 2 positions in a hybrid role etc.
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Messi at his peak was pretty good in a pressing system though.

Enigma_87 said:
Romario worked with pretty much everybody mate. The only way I can see Romario not working is being isolated on top without much creativity behind him - this is not the case here. Figo brings a lot of work rate and width on the right for Messi to exploit fully the right inside channel.

Maybe people see the big images in the formation but with two uber attacking full backs in a diamond who are expected to provide a lot of width in attack leaving spaces behind is somehow not an issue despite the opposition fielding Messi, Ronaldo, Figo and Brehme wide.
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Oh i agree, I just feel that Ronaldo, romario and messi are enough to break any front line. Forget messi's dribbling or scoring, he will win the match just with his passing if he has those two to aim for. That's why I find figo a bit redundant there.
 
harms said:
Liverpool has just won the CL with tons of good/decent players in a high-pressing coherent teams and Messi, unquestionably the best individual around, with many incredibly talented players, failed to achieve anything in Europe and internationally for years now. City, which plays the best football in the world, has all their attacking stars always involved in the pressing game; Agüero even lost his starting place to a youngster before he understood the need to adapt.

More so, it’s Messi’s role in defence that is often a key to defeating Barcelona. It sounds absurd, but this is not a criticism of Messi, whose strengths outweigh any of his weaknesses by a huge margin; it’s a criticism of his managers and, even more so, of the system with “star” players, and the rigid separation of defensive and offensive players. And that 4-4-2 by Valverde fails to perform because players who are supposed to cover for Messi’s weaknesses, aren’t capable of it — Suarez doesn’t run as much (and Romario won’t either), Rakitic doesn’t have the legs to cover 2 positions in a hybrid role etc.
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Liverpool didn’t play in a diamond though. They also didn’t break probably the best defensive line ever alongside with the keeper.

Hitting that diamond on a counter with two full backs high up is a huge issue defensively if you ask me.

Also Messi at his peak was far from passenger. Feel there is a bit of short memory that. He pressed a lot and chased a lot. I remember him chasing Kaka to the full width of the pitch.
 
Enigma_87 said:
You had a higher quality attack though. Also from Rivaldo to Cristiano it’s hardly a difference in the work rate department. We also have a defensive right back JB has two attacking full backs in a system that is hugely dependent on full backs providing width, yet you have no problem with that?
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you have three players that do feck all defensive wise he has none, unless he didnt have a major brainfart in team selection you dont really have to look what each other team has.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
you have three players that do feck all defensive wise he has none, unless he didnt have a major brainfart in team selection you dont really have to look what each other team has.
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So whoever has the better work rate wins? I feel individual brilliancy is more probably and proven historical wise.
 
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