Aurelien Tchouameni / Signs for Madrid

[Bebestation]

This just isn't true. None of those groups you mentioned defend badly.

Barcelona were probably the best defensive team of the 10's because they suffocated teams with pressing. Xavi and Iniesta were key to that pressing.

Modrid and Kroos do plenty of hard work defensively, same with Silva and De bruyne.

Yes the CDM's position themselves well and sweep up when required, but that's mainly due to the hard work from their team mates ahead making it easier for them to sweep up.

How many times have we seen Fernandinho forced into taking a foul to stop a counter attack? is that because he can't hold a midfield by himself?

Not even prime Kante can cover an entire midfield by himself, but a good team scructure can certainly enhance those attributes.

Tchouameni certainly ticks every box we should be looking at for a new CM.

The thing is again you are talking about pressing.

Pressing does not make you a defensive midfielder. Anyone can press be that your goalkeeper or a striker.

It's why Tchouameni is most likely won't work in a midfield 3 that contains 2 other players that press (as you highlighted, kroos and modric, xavi and iniesta, de bryune and silva) - because if you have 2 players already pressing then the last thing you want your CDM to do is also press.

Tchouameni is a presser and is one of his best assets.

It's why he isn't a centre defensive midfielder but more a centre midfielder with some defensive abilities like Mctominay or Fred.

He doesnt sit and control his zone like CDM's can do.

Ultimately if you think Tchouameni, Xavi and Iniesta would work then I just don't see it. Tchouameni is a CM and that's how he utelises his defensive abilities not through playing as a CDM.

 

[sincher]

I think what you are saying is that the system wouldn't work if you play him with Tchouameni other players in the same midfield?

 

[Deery]

Real Madrid want him to replace Casemiro, after watching him the other night I’d much rather have him than Declan Rice he looks like a proper midfielder.

 

[RUCK4444]

Real Madrid want him to replace Casemiro, after watching him the other night I’d much rather have him than Declan Rice he looks like a proper midfielder.

Sounds about right. Whilst we overspend on rice

 

[Bebestation]

I think what you are saying is that the system wouldn't work if you play him with Tchouameni other players in the same midfield?

Some want a CDM so we can play Pogba and Bruno. The people who think that doesn't work say there has never been a CDM that controlled a defensive game - pretending like Pogba and Bruno will do nothing. This is primarily a replacement for Matic our oldest player and a change of our formation.

On the other side they are wanting Tchouameni as they don't see Ole stop using the 4231. Aka they are going to try for an improvement of Fred and Mctominay rather than a replacement for Matic - a player that should arguably enables us to play all our best players.

What people are saying is this replacement for matic - a proper CDM that can control his zone and do majority of the defensive work when the play enters his area can be found and has been utelised before in many teams. That is all.

 

[Bebestation]

Real Madrid want him to replace Casemiro, after watching him the other night I’d much rather have him than Declan Rice he looks like a proper midfielder.

Where is camavinga going to be played?

 

[Deery]

Where is camavinga going to be played?

Don’t know maybe they intend to play both of them not unusual for Spanish sides to do that or maybe Camavinga is still a bit green yet.

 

[Adam-Utd]

The thing is again you are talking about pressing.

Pressing does not make you a defensive midfielder. Anyone can press be that your goalkeeper or a striker.

It's why Tchouameni is most likely won't work in a midfield 3 that contains 2 other players that press (as you highlighted, kroos and modric, xavi and iniesta, de bryune and silva) - because if you have 2 players already pressing then the last thing you want your CDM to do is also press.

Tchouameni is a presser and is one of his best assets.

It's why he isn't a centre defensive midfielder but more a centre midfielder with some defensive abilities like Mctominay or Fred.

He doesnt sit and control his zone like CDM's can do.

Ultimately if you think Tchouameni, Xavi and Iniesta would work then I just don't see it. Tchouameni is a CM and that's how he utelises his defensive abilities not through playing as a CDM.

Why are we even mentioning a CDM? who says if we sign him he plays in this position?

As far as I see it we play 4-2-3-1 under Ole and have never looked to play any other sort of 3 man midfield, even with Matic or Mctominay.

I said we should look at him for midfield as a replacement for Fred.

 

[Devil may care]

Some want a CDM so we can play Pogba and Bruno. The people who think that doesn't work say there has never been a CDM that controlled a defensive game - pretending like Pogba and Bruno will do nothing. This is primarily a replacement for Matic our oldest player and a change of our formation.

On the other side they are wanting Tchouameni as they don't see Ole stop using the 4231. Aka they are going to try for an improvement of Fred and Mctominay rather than a replacement for Matic - a player that should arguably enables us to play all our best players.

What people are saying is this replacement for matic - a proper CDM that can control his zone and do majority of the defensive work when the play enters his area can be found and has been utelised before in many teams. That is all.

Nobody said Pogba and Bruno will do nothing, Bruno tracks back a lot, but Pogba is very poor at tracking runs and getting his big frame back when we are counter attacked, it's useless comparing them to the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Kroos, Modric and Silva, who are all positonally much better players and all of them keep the ball for fun so they aren't constantly turning it over and having to chase back, you aren't comparing like for like players, Pogba and Bruno both take lots of risks meaning we face the counter a lot which exposes us, De Bruyne turns it over a lot as well but you can get away with 1 of the midfield 3 doing that if the other is a Silva or a proper box to box like Gundogan, not to mention the much higher level of coaching. If you think adding Rice means Pogba and Bruno can play ahead of him I think you're in for a rude awakening, especially if the amateur hour coaching is still at the helm.

 

[youmeletsfly]

The only way we get him is by playing a CDM+Pogba+Touchameni, which means going to a 4-3-3 or a 4-1-2-1-2. Both of these require brilliant coaching and would imply a few of our attackers being benched.

 

[Bebestation]

Nobody said Pogba and Bruno will do nothing, Bruno tracks back a lot, but Pogba is very poor at tracking runs and getting his big frame back when we are counter attacked, it's useless comparing them to the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Kroos, Modric and Silva, who are all positonally much better players and all of them keep the ball for fun so they aren't constantly turning it over and having to chase back, you aren't comparing like for like players, Pogba and Bruno both take lots of risks meaning we face the counter a lot which exposes us, De Bruyne turns it over a lot as well but you can get away with 1 of the midfield 3 doing that if the other is a Silva or a proper box to box like Gundogan, not to mention the much higher level of coaching. If you think adding Rice means Pogba and Bruno can play ahead of him I think you're in for a rude awakening, especially if the amateur hour coaching is still at the helm.

Let's see. Again, some CDM just sit and control their space.

All these players that play next to Pogba for the French National team and have people drooling due to Pogba being free and playing world class are hardly central defensive midfielders; the players playing next to pogba are not CDM- so if a CM could do it then I don't really see why a proper CDM couldn't.

Again, is it like we haven't seen a 40 year old matic play with Pogba or something? It has worked and its not extra ordinary, all we need is the younger version of Matic.

Tchouameni is the alternative to Fred or Mctominay. This is a tactic I do not mind but ultimately we will probably need 2 players of that same style, leading us to play one of those two for a while anyway.

 

[Kostov]

40 mil maybe?

I'd consider selling VDB and buy him in Jan

I think he would cost more, considering his France national team raising presence. 50m + imo.

 

[Devil may care]

Let's see. Again, some CDM just sit and control their space.

All these players that play next to Pogba for the French National team and have people drooling due to Pogba being free and playing world class are hardly central defensive midfielders; the players playing next to pogba are not CDM- so if a CM could do it then I don't really see why a proper CDM couldn't.

Again, is it like we haven't seen a 40 year old matic play with Pogba or something? It has worked and its not extra ordinary, all we need is the younger version of Matic.

Tchouameni is the alternative to Fred or Mctominay. This is a tactic I do not mind but ultimately we will probably need 2 players of that same style, leading us to play one of those two for a while anyway.

The French side give up their LW for Matuidi or Rabiot so there's an extra midfielder to tuck in and cover Pogba or they play a back 3 like the other night, somewhere in the line-up there needs to be an extra defensive player as he offers very little in this regard, he's a #10 in a midfielders body.

He's had the odd game here and there in the double pivot with Matic or Fred and it's worked, if the opposition is poor and he's switched on that day but more times than not he's a liability deeper no matter who partners him, lets not pretend he's ever had a long run of good performances for us playing that role.

I've never understood why we never followed the Juve blueprint given we paid so much for him, we saw it briefly with him, Carrick and Herrera but never followed up on it, since then we've bought Bruno and he's best suited to the 4-2-3-1, there is no DM that can facilitate 2 mavericks and there's zero evidence Rice can given he plays with another grafting midfielder for West Ham and England.

I'm wanting us to buy Tchouameni as part of a fully revamped double pivot, not as this Unicorn DM that will let Pogba and Bruno both play as pseudo #8's. To me Pogba and Matic off on a free and Van de Beek sold with 2 midfielders coming in is the way to go.

 

[Bebestation]

The French side give up their LW for Matuidi or Rabiot so there's an extra midfielder to tuck in and cover Pogba or they play a back 3 like the other night, somewhere in the line-up there needs to be an extra defensive player as he offers very little in this regard, he's a #10 in a midfielders body.

He's had the odd game here and there in the double pivot with Matic or Fred and it's worked, if the opposition is poor and he's switched on that day but more times than not he's a liability deeper no matter who partners him, lets not pretend he's ever had a long run of good performances for us playing that role.

I've never understood why we never followed the Juve blueprint given we paid so much for him, we saw it briefly with him, Carrick and Herrera but never followed up on it, since then we've bought Bruno and he's best suited to the 4-2-3-1, there is no DM that can facilitate 2 mavericks and there's zero evidence Rice can given he plays with another grafting midfielder for West Ham and England.

I'm wanting us to buy Tchouameni as part of a fully revamped double pivot, not as this Unicorn DM that will let Pogba and Bruno both play as pseudo #8's. To me Pogba and Matic off on a free and Van de Beek sold with 2 midfielders coming in is the way to go.

We have Wan Bissaka at RB though giving up an attacking RB role.

Anyway, I don't mind Tchouameni. I'm just not sure I want to improve on what we already have rather than try to actually fill gaps in midfield that we don't have - like a deep lying midfielder or anchorman type shielding player.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

Sign him up! But I suspect he’ll be another one we miss out on while we chase the overpriced, overhyped options.

 

[Borys]

The French side give up their LW for Matuidi or Rabiot so there's an extra midfielder to tuck in and cover Pogba or they play a back 3 like the other night, somewhere in the line-up there needs to be an extra defensive player as he offers very little in this regard, he's a #10 in a midfielders body.

He's had the odd game here and there in the double pivot with Matic or Fred and it's worked, if the opposition is poor and he's switched on that day but more times than not he's a liability deeper no matter who partners him, lets not pretend he's ever had a long run of good performances for us playing that role.

I've never understood why we never followed the Juve blueprint given we paid so much for him, we saw it briefly with him, Carrick and Herrera but never followed up on it, since then we've bought Bruno and he's best suited to the 4-2-3-1, there is no DM that can facilitate 2 mavericks and there's zero evidence Rice can given he plays with another grafting midfielder for West Ham and England.

I'm wanting us to buy Tchouameni as part of a fully revamped double pivot, not as this Unicorn DM that will let Pogba and Bruno both play as pseudo #8's. To me Pogba and Matic off on a free and Van de Beek sold with 2 midfielders coming in is the way to go.

What a great post. Couldn't agree more.

We have Wan Bissaka at RB though giving up an attacking RB role.

Anyway, I don't mind Tchouameni. I'm just not sure I want to improve on what we already have rather than try to actually fill gaps in midfield that we don't have - like a deep lying midfielder or anchorman type shielding player.

I'm not so sure that's the case. He isn't good at attacking but takes positions high up the pitch very often.

 

[seegoblu]

Any way Bruno can shift to play the 8 (which I believe he did at Sporting) and move Pogba up? I think Bruno could work (and follow instructions) a bit deeper and be a bit more responsible in tracking back while Pogba moves up the field? I think a strong defensive CM (not necessarily a CDM) with Bruno could work rather than trying to squeeze the round peg (Pogba) into the square hole (CM)

 

[JPRouve]

France didn't use Matuidi to cover for Pogba but to allow the midfield to cover for Mbappé not tracking back and in 2016 it was for Payet. And the back 3 has nothing to do with Pogba either, it's to accomodate Griezmann, Mbappé and Benzema, the two options have been a 3412 or 4312.

 

[andersj]

France didn't use Matuidi to cover for Pogba but to allow the midfield to cover for Mbappé not tracking back and in 2016 it was for Payet. And the back 3 has nothing to do with Pogba either, it's to accomodate Griezmann, Mbappé and Benzema, the two options have been a 3412 or 4312.

But it helps. You want Pogba to feel safe/free to take risk and be creative. That is not easy if you know that if you lose the ball they will be able to run directly at two CBs. Not to forget that this is a huge part of the tactic of many teams today; create «break downs» by winning the ball high up the pitch.

Also surprising it is such a big deal in England. Two of the best central midfielders from England had the exact same issue; Lampard and Gerrard. In fact, I would argue Pogba is a significant better CM in a pivot than Lampard ever was.

 

[JPRouve]

But it helps. You want Pogba to feel safe/free to take risk and be creative. That is not easy if you know that if you lose the ball they will be able to run directly at two CBs. Not to forget that this is a huge part of the tactic of many teams today; create «break downs» by winning the ball high up the pitch.

Also surprising it is such a big deal in England. Two of the best central midfielders from England had the exact same issue; Lampard and Gerrard. In fact, I would argue Pogba is a significant better CM in a pivot than Lampard ever was.

Of course it helps but it has nothing to do with wanting to have Pogba feeling safe(not that it would be a bad thing), in fact both systems were introduced without Pogba, it was when he was injured.

 

[Devil may care]

We have Wan Bissaka at RB though giving up an attacking RB role.

Anyway, I don't mind Tchouameni. I'm just not sure I want to improve on what we already have rather than try to actually fill gaps in midfield that we don't have - like a deep lying midfielder or anchorman type shielding player.

Just because he doesn't excel in the attack doesn't mean he isn't taking up the attacking positions.

Even if we bought an anchor man type midfielder we'd still need another proper #8, it seems more like you want to change the system, the system isn't broken, it's that quality of the players in the double pivot that hurts us.

France didn't use Matuidi to cover for Pogba but to allow the midfield to cover for Mbappé not tracking back and in 2016 it was for Payet. And the back 3 has nothing to do with Pogba either, it's to accomodate Griezmann, Mbappé and Benzema, the two options have been a 3412 or 4312.

So you think you can stick Pogba in a double pivot with Rashford and Sancho wide, Bruno as the #10 and Ronaldo up top?

 

[izak]

Are there any outlet linking us with this guy?

 

[JPRouve]

So you think you can stick Pogba in a double pivot with Rashford and Sancho wide, Bruno as the #10 and Ronaldo up top?

What makes you think that It is my thinking? I adressed the point about France, United is a different story and I don't think that Pogba is a good fit, I didn't think it was the case in 2016 and it's even worse now. The 4 players that you mentioned will lead to your midfield being exposed more often than not since your CMs will have to cover a lot of ground. I don't think that a 4231 is ideal for this squad if you don't have something like Xabi Alonso-Mascherano/Marcos Senna.

 

[MadDogg]

France didn't use Matuidi to cover for Pogba but to allow the midfield to cover for Mbappé not tracking back and in 2016 it was for Payet. And the back 3 has nothing to do with Pogba either, it's to accomodate Griezmann, Mbappé and Benzema, the two options have been a 3412 or 4312.

A couple of months ago I went through all the games France had played over the last few years and it was noticeable that they were more likely to only use two midfielders when Pogba wasn't playing. They didn't attempt to play that way against any even half-decent opponents when Pogba was in there. Whereas when he wasn't playing they played a decent amount of matches with only two midfielders. Certainly not all the time (in fact I'm pretty sure it was still under 50% of the time), but it was more likely and against better opposition.

That's not to say that Mbappe doesn't have some influence on that as well though.

 

[Bebestation]

I have a very poor memory but wasn't our midfield like Scholes, Carrick and Giggs at one point?

@Devil may care

I'm not saying that this our level or something but, do we really need to be that defensive?

For me we have 2 main problems in midfield:

1. Counter attacks going directly through our midfield and attacking on to our CB's. For me a CDM that shields that position and sits there will stop most of the counter attacks by simply being there compared to our current double pivot who they split right through and there is no one there. Aka they always face the CDM before the CB'S.

Another goal I think that can be stopped by that type of shielding CDM is the deflected goal vs West Ham off Varane that was scored by Benrahama. It's like we have no one in front of the defenders.

So I think it will help the counter attacks.

2. The lack of creativity. We lack creativity and our most creative players on paper is Bruno, Pogba and the Bundesliga version of Sancho. We should look to play 2 or 3 in our team otherwise we are going to struggle to break a team down. We saw when Mctominay play as our CDM in a 433 with Pogba and Bruno Fernandes that it didn't work. The positioning was wrong. Mctominay was too high up the pitch for being our sole CDM. Both Pogba and Bruno were playing high up the pitch.

However, the thing we consistently see is (especially when we struggle to break a team down for example vs Villareal in the final) that Bruno drops deeper and gets the ball to his own feet in slightly deeper but CM like positions before initiating attacks. With Pogba and Bruno protected by shielding CDM they will be playing as attacking CM's that each move towards more CAM like positions whenever they single-handedly the ability to do so.

This is especially going to happen now more than ever because the goalscoring version of Bruno Fernandes is not getting in to those positions because he has become a creator for Ronaldo so he can score the goals.

For me Tchouameni looks good and I'd be happy here - but playing 4231 with him and Mctominay or Fred is not going to be creative enough and maybe just maybe it will be just about defensive enough. Pogba can't play next to Tchouameni in a double pivot, if he can't be shielded by a player like Rice then no chance with Tchouameni. We will probably need another partner to Tchouameni to play in a double pivot before we even signed him, when arguably that could leave us 4 types of the same type of player that plays a box to box double pivot kind of CM role.

 

[andersj]

Of course it helps but it has nothing to do with wanting to have Pogba feeling safe(not that it would be a bad thing), in fact both systems were introduced without Pogba, it was when he was injured.

You are probably right. But an issue at Man Utd is the risk associated with having Pogba infront of two CBs. Both due to him causing dangerous breaks against us and due to him being less creative in that position.

If we protected Pogba with one more CB at the back (or one more DM playing 433) we would see a better Pogba as him losing the ball with be less of an issue. Furthermore it would allow him to play with more risk, being more creative.

 

[Cassidy]

You are probably right. But an issue at Man Utd is the risk associated with having Pogba infront of two CBs. Both due to him causing dangerous breaks against us and due to him being less creative in that position.

If we protected Pogba with one more CB at the back (or one more DM playing 433) we would see a better Pogba as him losing the ball with be less of an issue. Furthermore it would allow him to play with more risk, being more creative.

A question, is he the only CM we have that loses the ball in midfield? Or is he one that does it so much more than others (Fred an example)? I'm not sure that's correct...

 

[Strats]

The prospect of a double pivot with Tchouameni and Hannibal(who seems to have dropped a bit deeper in the reserves) with Bruno in front of them looks on paper exciting. At least against teams where we should be on the front foot.

Or would that be too unbalanced?

 

[Teja]

I've never understood why we never followed the Juve blueprint given we paid so much for him, we saw it briefly with him, Carrick and Herrera but never followed up on it, since then we've bought Bruno and he's best suited to the 4-2-3-1, there is no DM that can facilitate 2 mavericks and there's zero evidence Rice can given he plays with another grafting midfielder for West Ham and England.

I'm trying to remember if we've ever consistently played Matic + Herrera + Pogba. Feels like the most balanced midfield we could've had in recent memory.

 

[JPRouve]

A couple of months ago I went through all the games France had played over the last few years and it was noticeable that they were more likely to only use two midfielders when Pogba wasn't playing. They didn't attempt to play that way against any even half-decent opponents when Pogba was in there. Whereas when he wasn't playing they played a decent amount of matches with only two midfielders. Certainly not all the time (in fact I'm pretty sure it was still under 50% of the time), but it was more likely and against better opposition.

That's not to say that Mbappe doesn't have some influence on that as well though.

Before 2019, 50% should be correct because France have generally played the starters on one game and the bench players on the other if it's a friendly. The bench players have generally included a combination of Lemar, Dembélé, Martial or Coman. Lemar and Coman in particular don't need to be covered, they do their defensive job well, in particular Coman and they have played with Pogba and Kanté in a double pivot. Deschamps change things when Mbappé is in the side.

 

[Borussia Teeth]

I'm trying to remember if we've ever consistently played Matic + Herrera + Pogba. Feels like the most balanced midfield we could've had in recent memory.

We did during Ole's caretaker winning run. Herrera got injured then rejected a contract in favour of joining PSG so we didn't really use it again.

Jose also got some success with that trio; win at the Etihad (with Pogba scoring a double) springs to mind.

Unfortunately both Jose and Ole bum the double pivot so we have rarely seen the best of our £90m signing.

 

[JPRouve]

The prospect of a double pivot with Tchouameni and Hannibal(who seems to have dropped a bit deeper in the reserves) with Bruno in front of them looks on paper exciting. At least against teams where we should be on the front foot.

Or would that be too unbalanced?

It depends on who they are playing with. You can't do it effectively with wide forwards and a 10 that plays like a forward more than a midfielder. But the solution is pretty simple, Bruno is an excellent midfielder and he should be asked to play like one, it's actually what he did during his first month at the club and he made a huge difference, to me he is more valuable in that role, particularly when we have goalscorers and someone like Sancho that can create chances easily.

 

[MadDogg]

I'm trying to remember if we've ever consistently played Matic + Herrera + Pogba. Feels like the most balanced midfield we could've had in recent memory.

The only time they really had a consistent run was when Ole first took over.

If I remember the stats correctly, in their time here they started 20 matches together (can't remember if that was just league or all competitions). In the first four matches they only won one, drew two and lost one, but after that they won all 16 of the following matches. I'm confident that is by far the most successful percentage of all the midfield partnerships we've tried since SAF.

In Mourinho's first season we also played Carrick-Herrera-Pogba for a while, and that was the best we looked that season. Obviously Carrick was quite a bit past his best by that stage though and he seemed to burn out in a month or two after Mourinho tried to play him too much.

Those two combinations are, on paper at least, the only times that Pogba has played in a well-balanced midfield since he's been here. Admittedly he didn't actually play that well himself in the version with Carrick, but the midfield as a whole did look good.

 

[Devil may care]

What makes you think that It is my thinking? I adressed the point about France, United is a different story and I don't think that Pogba is a good fit, I didn't think it was the case in 2016 and it's even worse now. The 4 players that you mentioned will lead to your midfield being exposed more often than not since your CMs will have to cover a lot of ground. I don't think that a 4231 is ideal for this squad if you don't have something like Xabi Alonso-Mascherano/Marcos Senna.

I wasn't sure exactly what you were thinking, that's why I asked directly, as while those systems used by the French team may not be solely designed for Pogba, they are the reason he functions better in international games than he does at United most of the time. We don't have good enough midfielders period, no matter the system, but it makes more sense to build around Bruno and the 4-2-3-1 he thrives in given the circumstances, and Pogba doesn't fit into that system.

I have a very poor memory but wasn't our midfield like Scholes, Carrick and Giggs at one point?

@Devil may care

I'm not saying that this our level or something but, do we really need to be that defensive?

For me we have 2 main problems in midfield:

1. Counter attacks going directly through our midfield and attacking on to our CB's. For me a CDM that shields that position and sits there will stop most of the counter attacks by simply being there compared to our current double pivot who they split right through and there is no one there. Aka they always face the CDM before the CB'S.

Another goal I think that can be stopped by that type of shielding CDM is the deflected goal vs West Ham off Varane that was scored by Benrahama. It's like we have no one in front of the defenders.

So I think it will help the counter attacks.

2. The lack of creativity. We lack creativity and our most creative players on paper is Bruno, Pogba and the Bundesliga version of Sancho. We should look to play 2 or 3 in our team otherwise we are going to struggle to break a team down. We saw when Mctominay play as our CDM in a 433 with Pogba and Bruno Fernandes that it didn't work. The positioning was wrong. Mctominay was too high up the pitch for being our sole CDM. Both Pogba and Bruno were playing high up the pitch.

However, the thing we consistently see is (especially when we struggle to break a team down for example vs Villareal in the final) that Bruno drops deeper and gets the ball to his own feet in slightly deeper but CM like positions before initiating attacks. With Pogba and Bruno protected by shielding CDM they will be playing as attacking CM's that each move towards more CAM like positions whenever they single-handedly the ability to do so.

This is especially going to happen now more than ever because the goalscoring version of Bruno Fernandes is not getting in to those positions because he has become a creator for Ronaldo so he can score the goals.

For me Tchouameni looks good and I'd be happy here - but playing 4231 with him and Mctominay or Fred is not going to be creative enough and maybe just maybe it will be just about defensive enough. Pogba can't play next to Tchouameni in a double pivot, if he can't be shielded by a player like Rice then no chance with Tchouameni. We will probably need another partner to Tchouameni to play in a double pivot before we even signed him, when arguably that could leave us 4 types of the same type of player that plays a box to box double pivot kind of CM role.

I've never suggested being more defensive mate, I'm saying we need 2 midfielders to fix the double pivot, I've always said one of them needs to be a creative #8, like Scholes or Giggs were when partnered with Carrick. What I am saying is Bruno is a #10 who thrives in 4-2-3-1, Pogba doesn't fit into that system unless you play him on the left of the 3 which isn't sustainable given all the wide attackers we have. Letting him go and getting a CM with defensive instincts like Tchouameni and a proper #8 creator makes the most sense.

 

[JPRouve]

I wasn't sure exactly what you were thinking, that's why I asked directly, as while those systems used by the French team may not be solely designed for Pogba, they are the reason he functions better in international games than he does at United most of the time. We don't have good enough midfielders period, no matter the system, but it makes more sense to build around Bruno and the 4-2-3-1 he thrives in given the circumstances, and Pogba doesn't fit into that system.

The reason it functions better in particular since 2016 is because every aspects of the french team is based on the strength and weaknesses of each players, no one is asked to do something that they can't. It wasn't always that obvious before 2016 and the likes of Pogba and Benzema struggled. The irony is that it's when France finally embraced the idea of not caring for individuals and star players that everything clicked, also the addition of Griezmann made a huge difference because his work rate helps the midfield and his ability to score and create means that the other attackers don't have to act like super heros. Benzema probably can't believe the difference between the team that he left in 2015 and the current one.

 

[Rolaholic]

Where is camavinga going to be played?

Probably in the Kroos role in a midfield three.

Tchouameni looked like such a promising prospect last season and he's picked up where he left off for France and Monaco this season. It's crazy that they already have someone to fill in Kante's role seamlessly when the time comes.

Would absolutely love him at United and he'd be much cheaper than Rice and has been developing a good understanding with Pogba recently

 

[Bebestation]

Probably in the Kroos role in a midfield three.

Tchouameni looked like such a promising prospect last season and he's picked up where he left off for France and Monaco this season. It's crazy that they already have someone to fill in Kante's role seamlessly when the time comes.

Would absolutely love him at United and he'd be much cheaper than Rice and has been developing a good understanding with Pogba recently

How would you line him up with Pogba at United?

 

[Kostov]

Why are we even mentioning a CDM? who says if we sign him he plays in this position?

As far as I see it we play 4-2-3-1 under Ole and have never looked to play any other sort of 3 man midfield, even with Matic or Mctominay.

I said we should look at him for midfield as a replacement for Fred.

We solve nothing if we replace Fred, but still have to play the other very very average CM in McT. What we need to do is replace Matic with a proper CDM, and find a way to play a midfield of the said player with Pogba and Bruno. Otherwise we solve shit and lack another CM, for which we don't have a budget to bring.

 

[Cloud7]

Real Madrid want him to replace Casemiro, after watching him the other night I’d much rather have him than Declan Rice he looks like a proper midfielder.

I said this before. He will go to another club for a reasonable fee and we'll spend a world record or near world record fee on Rice

 

[Bebestation]

We solve nothing if we replace Fred, but still have to play the other very very average CM in McT. What we need to do is replace Matic with a proper CDM, and find a way to play a midfield of the said play with Pogba and Bruno. Otherwise we solve shit and lack another CM, for which we don't have a budget to bring.

Thank you, this is what I see too.

If we replace Fred to improve and get a better box to box player we end up having 3 box to box players. We then need to improve Mctominay which leads us to having 4 box to box players.

We can't play Pogba with a CM or a box to box midfielder in the Premier League. We can't even do that with Hannibal if that's who people see replacing Pogba as our creative CM.

We need more specialist type of midfielders in my opinion that allows us to be flexible with our tactics. A new deep lying playmaker (stops using Pogba as our creative player in midfield), a new shielding/Anchorman midfielder to replace Matic (a player that can hold Pogba or even Hannibal in midfield).