Auction-Trade Madness Draft - R1: Pat vs idmanager

[Pat_Mustard]

They are not misguided at all.
I didn't question his ability to be creative, but if you expect him to defensively support Pavoni down that left flank, you are asking him to do something which was not a part of his game.
Sure, he could kick a player or two like he did back in that Leeds team, but nothing more than that.

I don't see anything in your above post as well to suggest he could help defensively consistently or otherwise.

He was a proper two-way central midfielder mate, as was Bremner. Both were box to box players who chipped in at both ends of the pitch, as evidenced by their near-identical goalscoring records for Leeds.

Yet another quote, this time from Match of the Day's Barry Davies:

"I think the 'Dirty Leeds' tag started in order to get them up into the First Division in the first place", Davies suggests. "There is no doubt that Leeds strong-armed or strong-footed their way out of the Second Division. They had probably the hardest player - in terms of his mental view - in Giles. There was a cruel, calculating side to a brilliant player. Most successful teams need a ball-winner, but there aren't too many teams who've had ball-winners who could be as creative as Giles, Bremner and Collins. These were three small, hard-nut players who could really play."

It's a bit of a red herring anyway, given that in addition to Giles we have two other first-rate ball midfield ball-winners in Voronin and Bonhof, compared to Varela and Tigana in your team. Varela/Tigana/Rivera is a gorgeous midfield, but they're not outgrafting Voronin/Bonhof/Giles/Stojkovic.

 

[idmanager]

He was a proper two-way central midfielder mate, as was Bremner. Both were box to box players who chipped in at both ends of the pitch, as evidenced by their near-identical goalscoring records for Leeds.

Near identical goal scoring records only prove they were both good going forward. Proves nothing defensively.

@BeforeKeanetherewasRobson , probably could throw some light on Giles' midfield role.

 

[P-Nut]

Sorry for the late response mate.

Bessonov was part of the excellent USSR generation of the 1980s, Very athletic and well-rounded. Here's some good posts on him from another forum:





Ricardo Pavoni was one of the leaders of a highly successful Independiente team and won 5 Copa Libertadores. Owner of one of the great footballing moustaches:

And a good post by Anto about him:



Zmuda was an excellent defensive organiser - the main man in Poland's defensive line across their golden generation. This thread is a fun read, with Edgar inexpicably deciding to shit on Zmuda early on and Anto riding to his defence:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/lv-monopoly-d-r1-jayvin-vs-crappy.423021/

Cheers for the response mate

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I'll try to make it easier for you.
Do you think Hansen and Chumpitaz are in same class as Ronaldo and Romario and have the right attributes and quality to handle them? And do you think Tigana and Varela are capable enough of stopping anything created from the centre?

Coming to the other end, do you think Bessonov and Pavoni are of the same class and capable of handling Rivaldo/Camacho and Meazza/Zambrotta? Especially Pavoni who would hardly have any help from Giles. Do you think Zmuda is of the level to organize a defense against a team with as much fluidity and quality as mine?

Who do you think apart from Ronaldo or Romario from his team can enter my squad?
Leaving Ronaldo and Romario, don't you think almost every player in my squad will upgrade his team?

To be fair, Ro-Ro is a great pairing but it runs into its match defensively with Hansen/Chumpitaz/Tigana/Varela. And when you look beyond those 2, the game gets way too one sided in every other department.

Damn I wish I'd got motivated for this match earlier as this is a hyperbole masterclass that's probably cost me alot of votes by not addressing it sharply enough.

It's hard to even know where to start here, but KH Forster is the obvious one who would walk into your team and create a miles more balanced CB pairing. In fact, not only is he arguably the best CB on the pitch, but he'd also be the best partner for any of Zmuda/Hansen/Chumpitaz. The idea that Hansen/Chumpitaz is some sort of impenetrable shield against Ronaldo and Romario, yet Zmuda/KH Forster are going to be completely incapable of dealing with an inferior forward line is just madness. I rate Weah fairly highly, and he's a good foil for Rivaldo and Meazza, but he's simply light years nehind both Ronaldo and Romario as a goal threat, and Forster's suffocating, muscular brand of defending is a good match for the qualities he possesses anyway.

Weah:

Ronaldo:

Romario:

 

[idmanager]

yet Zmuda/KH Forster are going to be completely incapable of dealing with an inferior forward line is just madness

Read that and realized 2 things.

1. You don't have any clue about the likes of Meazza and Rivera. Inferior FFS
2. As long as you have a couple of GOAT strikers at the top, you think that is good enough and tactics can go down the bin.

Its a good thing for you that most of the scan voters agree with you on point 2.
Anyone with a basic sense and understanding of tactics would agree that I am way more equipped to deal with whatever you have to offer, while you are bound to struggle with the transitions my team has to offer.

Even if you read the arguments from neutrals till now, they are of 2 types

1. I have the way more better setup
2. You have Ro-Ro and hence its tough to vote against you.

That sums up the game for me.
Win the game or not, be motivated or not, you have lost the tactical battle by miles.

I'll rest my case here since I dont see anything worthwhile being added to the argument. Makes the game demotivating to argue for me as well. Cheers and good luck for the last few hours mate

 

[Indnyc]

@Pat_Mustard could you talk a bit more about Stojkovic? All I know about him is that he was constantly injured

I know he had a great 1990 World Cup but didn’t really shine as much in Europe? Trying to understand how well he would cope against someone like Varela

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Read that and realized 2 things.

1. You don't have any clue about the likes of Meazza and Rivera. Inferior FFS
2. As long as you have a couple of GOAT strikers at the top, you think that is good enough and tactics can go down the bin.

Its a good thing for you that most of the scan voters agree with you on point 2.
Anyone with a basic sense and understanding of tactics would agree that I am way more equipped to deal with whatever you have to offer, while you are bound to struggle with the transitions my team has to offer.

Even if you read the arguments from neutrals till now, they are of 2 types

1. I have the way more better setup
2. You have Ro-Ro and hence its tough to vote against you.

That sums up the game for me.
Win the game or not, be motivated or not, you have lost the tactical battle by miles.

I'll rest my case here since I dont see anything worthwhile being added to the argument. Makes the game demotivating to argue for me as well. Cheers and good luck for the last few hours mate

fecking hell. I would have forfeited this game completely if I'd known I was facing off against Rinus Michels. A tactical masterclass indeed, that an ignoramus like myself still doesn't quite understand. As far I can tell, it's consisted mostly of shitting on my lesser known players, asking people to ignore Ronaldo and Romario, boasting about a 'way more better setup', rinse and repeat.

 

[2mufc0]

Really like id's midfield. Pat have you got more information on Bonhof?

 

[idmanager]

asking people to ignore Ronaldo and Romario

Cleary it has not worked as the vote pattern would suggest scanning folks not looking beyond Ro-Ro is the only reason you are still in the game mate

 

[Pat_Mustard]

@Pat_Mustard could you talk a bit more about Stojkovic? All I know about him is that he was constantly injured

I know he had a great 1990 World Cup but didn’t really shine as much in Europe? Trying to understand how well he would cope against someone like Varela

Sure mate. Injuries really did ruin him right as he should have been entering a brilliant peak. He's one of the most aesthetically-pleasing playmakers I've seen - superb balance and a gorgeous weight of pass. I'm going to attach some individual match compilations to give you a flavour of his playing style:

Spoiler: Versus Milan

Spoiler: Versus Spain

Spoiler: Versus Netherlands

There's more knocking around that I can post if you fancy? Strongly encourage you to give those a watch as he was such an elegant player who could impose his will against top-class opposition. You'd have to give Varela an edge based on historical standing, as Stojkovic's peak was cut short, but looking after him is a full-time job without question and will at least limit Varela's ability to shield the CBs against Ro-Ro.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Cleary it has not worked as the vote pattern would suggest scanning folks not looking beyond Ro-Ro is the only reason you are still in the game mate

And yet beyond stating that none of my other players would make your team, you still haven't actually said where exactly you hold such a huge superiority over my team.

 

[idmanager]

And yet beyond stating that none of my other players would make your team, you still haven't actually said where exactly you hold such a huge superiority over my team.

Tough to explain when you rate Forster miles ahead of Chumpitaz. And play down a complimentary Hansen and Chumpitaz pairing like they were Smalling and Jones.

No clue why you feel those two with Varela and Tigana is not good to handle Ro-Ro.

Probably the loss in motivation

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Really like id's midfield. Pat have you got more information on Bonhof?

Sure mate. He was just a brilliant midfield all-rounder who also played in both full back positions, which makes him an outstanding fit for the diamond formation. He was most notable for his defensive contribution but he was dangerous in the offensive phase too:

and Bonhof - who was, actually, man-marked by Neeskens in 1974 because of his dangerous balls to Muller. Well, Bonhof ended up with the winning assist and assisted 4 more in the 1976 Euro's semi-final and final.

And had a famously brutal shot from long range:

 

[Indnyc]

Sure mate. Injuries really did ruin him right as he should have been entering a brilliant peak. He's one of the most aesthetically-pleasing playmakers I've seen - superb balance and a gorgeous weight of pass. I'm going to attach some individual match compilations to give you a flavour of his playing style:

Spoiler: Versus Milan

Spoiler: Versus Spain

Spoiler: Versus Netherlands

There's more knocking around that I can post if you fancy? Strongly encourage you to give those a watch as he was such an elegant player who could impose his will against top-class opposition. You'd have to give Varela an edge based on historical standing, as Stojkovic's peak was cut short, but looking after him is a full-time job without question and will at least limit Varela's ability to shield the CBs against Ro-Ro.

Cheers for that. With him and Bonhof supplying Ro-Ro, the decision to vote is trickier. Originally voted for @idmanager but following the arguments is making me think again. Will read some more before the final vote

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Tough to explain when you rate Forster miles ahead of Chumpitaz. And play down a complimentary Hansen and Chumpitaz pairing like they were Smalling and Jones.

No clue why you feel those two with Varela and Tigana is not good to handle Ro-Ro.

Probably the loss in motivation

Probably the same book of tactics that makes you feel that Zmuda and Forster are out of their depth against Weah. And, lest you forget, it's you that started banging on about none of my players being fit to make your Galacticos XI . I rate Chumpitaz very highly, Hansen not so much. A good defender, but he was hardly faultless, as evidenced by his lacklustre international career and Brian Glanville describing him as 'an elegant giver of second chances' , and here he's going to neuter two of the greatest strikers ever? Hardly.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Cheers for that. With him and Bonhof supplying Ro-Ro, the decision to vote is trickier. Originally voted for @idmanager but following the arguments is making me think again. Will read some more before the final vote

No problem mate. If it might sway you, I'm going to post a masterpiece on another of my lesser-known players from Joga:

It's very rare to see a player play a deep playmaking role, using his tactical nous and positioning and covering ability to great effect in one match, and then go on to deliver an immense man-marking display completely nullifying one of the tournament's in-form players in Florian Albert, (well it was the other way around but I made that semi-final performance video first, so let's stick with that narrative) but that was precisely what Valery Voronin was capable of - a two way player with potent creative faculties and a formidable destructive streak.

Just finished man-marking one of the players of the tournaments in Florian Albert and playing against the likes of Beckenbauer-Overath-Seeler-Haller? Well up you go against freaking Eusebio, in his 1966 WC form, next then.




(Video quality at the start is poor but I just used those excerpts for the English commentary by Wolstenholme, iirc.



The actual compilation quality is much better, so stick with it.)

We've seen man-marking displays from the likes of Bergomi, Gentile, Stiles and other more 'rugged' players but it's hard to think of more pure and 'clean' man-marking displays than those displayed by Voronin against Albert and Eusebio. Quite something, being the most creative talisman of your side and also simultaneously being the most formidable man-marking presence. If one really wants to appreciate those displays, it'd be better if they watch those matches in full as there were a lot of positional plays (putting pressure in the right areas, preventing Albert/Eusebio from turning and forcing them into simple back passes etc) that I couldn't put inside the video. Far too often we've had the debate about who'd be the ideal holding midfielder (not named Rijkaard) who would be ideally suited to upgrade Busquets in the tiki-taka system or any other system which demands a ball-playing yet defensive resolute and positionally disciplined DM, Voronin has to be amongst the top of the pile imo


Naturally, Voronin would end up being voted into the Best XI of the 1966 WC by the Associated Press (strangely not in the official TOTM, although he made it in the 1962 WC)

Banks; D. Santos, Schulz, Moore, Marzolini; Beckenbauer, Charlton, Voronin; Bene, Eusebio, Simoes

whilst the British pundit team with Don Revie and Billy Wright had this as all star team for this WC:

Banks; Sanchis, Schulz, Moore, Marzolini; Beckenbauer, Charlton; Voronin, Bene, Pelé, Eusebio

A referendum organized by L'Equipe and France Football regarding the best player of the tournament gave the following result:

1- Bobby Charlton ----- 17 votes
2- Franz Beckenbauer - 8 votes
3- Eusébio -------------- 7 votes
4- Valery Voronin ----- 4 votes

It's very rare to see a player play a deep playmaking role, using his tactical nous and positioning and covering ability to great effect in one match, and then go on to deliver an immense man-marking display completely nullifying one of the tournament's in-form players in Florian Albert, (well it was the other way around but I made that semi-final performance video first, so let's stick with that narrative) but that was precisely what Valery Voronin was capable of - a two way player with potent creative faculties and a formidable destructive streak.

It's very rare to see a player play a deep playmaking role, using his tactical nous and positioning and covering ability to great effect in one match, and then go on to deliver an immense man-marking display completely nullifying one of the tournament's in-form players in Florian Albert, (well it was the other way around but I made that semi-final performance video first, so let's stick with that narrative) but that was precisely what Valery Voronin was capable of - a two way player with potent creative faculties and a formidable destructive streak.

He's pretty much tailor-made for mitigating against the playmaking influence of a genius like Rivera, and one of several reasons why I feel idmanager's narrative of battering me all over the pitch is so wide of the mark.

 

[2mufc0]

Sure mate. He was just a brilliant midfield all-rounder who also played in both full back positions, which makes him an outstanding fit for the diamond formation. He was most notable for his defensive contribution but he was dangerous in the offensive phase too:



And had a famously brutal shot from long range:

Thanks mate , out at the moment but will take a look later.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

A reminder of just what Hansen/Chumpitaz are up against here:



And this was a Romario who was in flux at club level, bouncing around between Flamengo and Valencia. Now imagine him at his absolute peak . Actually maybe we shouldn't, as we're supposed to pretend that they're not even on the pitch to keep idmanager happy

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Still trying to wrap my head around this tactical masterclass that Idmanager has supposedly blitzed me with, as I can find sweet bugger all in his posts bar a few vague references to a fluid attack and this, where he effectively says nothing at all:

Thanks mate.

We are going to be a very balanced outfit in both attack and defence.
As in while we shall be able to hit hard on the counters, we will also try and build up chances on our own as well with the geniuses in the team.

Edgar actually makes a tactical observation:

It seems to be a very dynamic team. With Rivera able to operate deeper than usual #10s, it gives lot of flexibility for Meazza and Rivaldo to drift wide or cut in to middle making for a very flexible team with smooth transitions. Lovely!

I'd question how much of a width advantage he really has. Rivaldo, granted, was a threat on both the outside left and inside left channels, but he certainly isn't one to hug the touchline. Camacho will motor forward in support, but he was hardly a specialist attacking FB either. On the other side, I have no idea whether Meazza would hit the wider areas or not, but as he seemed to pretty much always play with a proper outside right in the team it's hard to imagine it being a major feature of his game.

I'm hardly teeming with width either, but Pavoni was a renowned overlapper with good goalscoring pedigree (57 goals for Independiente), Bessonov is quite an attacking full back, and both my side midfielders have played extensively in wide positions too. Not to mention the small matter of Ronaldo being so ridiculously capable of picking up the ball deep in either of the channels and just burning past an entire defence:

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Edgar actually makes a tactical observation:

Eff Off

 

[idmanager]

Wait till the thread reaches out of the first page, bump it up, post more about Ronaldo and Romario and hope to rake in more of those scan votes if possible.

Your current tactic seems to be better than the one your team is operating under.

Time for me to hit the bed either ways.
It would be a really special victory for you incase those two full backs triumph over Rivaldo/Camacho and Meazza/Zambrotta.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Come on lads, play nice.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Eff Off

I'm never averse to insulting you but that wasn't actually a dig at you, more an observation that the one post with a legitimate tactical observation wasn't even made by Idmanager.

 

[idmanager]

I'm never averse to insulting you but that wasn't actually a dig at you, more an observation that the one post with a legitimate tactical observation wasn't even made by Idmanager.

That EAP observation you talk about was from my OP. Lost games before but this is seriously idiotic.

 

[Skizzo]

Wait till the thread reaches out of the first page, bump it up, post more about Ronaldo and Romario and hope to rake in more of those scan votes if possible.

Your current tactic seems to be better than the one your team is operating under.

Time for me to hit the bed either ways.
It would be a really special victory for you incase those two full backs triumph over Rivaldo/Camacho and Meazza/Zambrotta.

Why are you assuming that the only reason anyone voted for Pat was because we’re scan voting? To reduce my, or anyone else’s, observation of thinking pat’s team may win to just looking at his strikers just reeks of a smug and condescending attitude, and a POV which has been discussed plenty of times before. People bitched at Edgar for trying to have a 5 member panel of the draft junkie elite, and people complained saying it should be available for everyone because it wasn’t fair to limit the votes...and now you’re complaining that votes are going for the opposition. I also don’t see what tactical masterclass you’ve put on besides a 433 formation? You hardly mentioned any special tactics or plans to stop his team?

I see Pat’s team in a set up that’s there to get the best out of his front two. A basic diamond, with supporting players. Are they as flashy as yours in all positions? Not at all. I’d personally probably take your whole midfield on a player by player basis, but that’s not to say that Pat’s don’t do exactly what they need to do.

You have Rivaldo, who famously hated playing wide left. Rivera who would drop deep then move forward to the AM spot. Meazza who you said would constantly be cutting inside. That’s your three best players all wanting to move centrally. Personally I think with such a poor opinion of Pat’s full backs, you’d have wanted those players to exploit their weaknesses, rather than relying on overlaps from Zambrotta. Just my observation at least.

 

[idmanager]

Camacho will motor forward in support, but he was hardly a specialist attacking FB either.

Jesus. Why am I even pursuing arguing anymore. Fecks sake.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Wait till the thread reaches out of the first page, bump it up, post more about Ronaldo and Romario and hope to rake in more of those scan votes if possible.

Your current tactic seems to be better than the one your team is operating under.

Time for me to hit the bed either ways.
It would be a really special victory for you incase those two full backs triumph over Rivaldo/Camacho and Meazza/Zambrotta.

So you expect Meazza to regularly be operating out wide and attacking Pavoni? It doesn't seem to fit in with what I've read about his playing style or the formations he operated in, but no doubt you'll be able to set me straight.

 

[idmanager]

Why are you assuming that the only reason anyone voted for Pat was because we’re scan voting?

I didnt say that about every vote but you would be blind to not see the number of scan votes he has had.

 

[idmanager]

So you expect Meazza to regularly be operating out wide and attacking Pavoni? It doesn't seem to fit in with what I've read about his playing style or the formations he operated in, but no doubt you'll be able to set me straight.

You know shit about Meazza mate. Based on whatever I have read from you sofar.read my older posts in the threadabout Meazza. Or dont.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Jesus. Why am I even pursuing arguing anymore. Fecks sake.

Christ. After some of the utter shite you've posted about the likes of Pavoni and Giles you're getting indignant about that comment?! Fantastic player, brilliant defender who will also support the attack, but he's hardly Roberto Carlos stylistically is he?

 

[Skizzo]

I didnt say that about every vote but you would be blind to not see the number of scan votes he has had.

A lot of the votes are still by people who regularly follow the drafts. They aren’t randoms who just popped in. Trust me, worrying about scan votes in drafts has been discussed a lot, and you’ll only alienate yourself by complaining about their impact. You have a good team with good players, obvious by the fact it’s a close game. On the flip side, pat has a good side with the front two being the highlight, and the rest more of a base to get the best out of them. You won’t always get people to give you reasons for votes, so I can be maddening at times when you see a game going a certain way and no one else does...I’ve been there but it doesn’t mean any one person’s opinion is any more correct than another’s.

 

[idmanager]

I am sorry, am not a fan of this condesending cnutish sarcastic way of playing a game. Probably my worst experience in a draft game here. Am done with this game. To hell about winning or losing when its not fun.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

You know shit about Meazza mate. Based on whatever I have read from you sofar.read my older posts in the threadabout Meazza. Or dont.

Yeah, and you're a fountain of knowledge about the likes of Voronin and Giles. I almost hope you win one of these drafts soon just so you calm down a bit with the constant crying about everything.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I am sorry, am not a fan of this condesending cnutish sarcastic way of playing a game. Probably my worst experience in a draft game here. Am done with this game. To hell about winning or losing when its not fun.

You've got brass balls after the way you've approached this match and the draft in general.

 

[idmanager]

Yeah, and you're a fountain of knowledge about the likes of Voronin and Giles. I almost hope you win one of these drafts soon just so you calm down a bit with the constant crying about everything.

You've got brass balls after the way you've approached this match and the draft in general.

Okay mate, my apologies. Congrats on the win. (EAP, you could stop the scoring here). Cheers.

 

[Moby]

idmanager stop being a constant drama queen.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Pat_Mustard could you talk a bit more about Stojkovic? All I know about him is that he was constantly injured

I know he had a great 1990 World Cup but didn’t really shine as much in Europe? Trying to understand how well he would cope against someone like Varela

Think of a more talented Savicevic with his dribbling probably of the same quality.

Top class player in all European campaigns Red star had at the time. He ran rings around players like Rijkaard and Baresi and led the team that almost knocked out prime Sacchi team if not for the Belgrade fog.

Excellent playmaker capable of operating wide. Top class dribbler with incredible vision and high work rate to boot. Could have reached the very top heights of the game if it weren’t for his injuries.

Even past his prime you can see him playing at top level against Germany in 98 WC.

 

[P-Nut]

Yeah, and you're a fountain of knowledge about the likes of Voronin and Giles. I almost hope you win one of these drafts soon just so you calm down a bit with the constant crying about everything.

It's crazy how much your approach changes once you've won and realise nothing happens

 

[Indnyc]

Think of a more talented Savicevic with his dribbling probably of the same quality.

Top class player in all European campaigns Red star had at the time. He ran rings around players like Rijkaard and Baresi and led the team that almost knocked out prime Sacchi team if not for the Belgrade fog.

Excellent playmaker capable of operating wide. Top class dribbler with incredible vision and high work rate to boot. Could have reached the very top heights of the game if it weren’t for his injuries.

Even past his prime you can see him playing at top level against Germany in 98 WC.

Thanks! I switched my votes after reading more about Giles and Stojkovic

 

[Moby]

It's crazy how much your approach changes once you've won and realise nothing happens