Auction-Trade Madness Draft - R1: Arbitrium vs Sjor/TRoss

[Deleted member 101472]

@Šjor Bepo

The graphic clearly shows the amount of space I can have on my right hand side. Leaving "The world champion of precision" with that much space is suicidal, especially when hes afforded the luxury of knowing he has 4 guys behind him who can look after your 3 attackers.

Now Lets be generous and say my left side does a good job against your right side. Bale or Facchetti have advanced up the pitch, and can keep attacking the byline or look inside for a pass. Now, in this instance you have (As you instructed) Dalglish dropping back to disrupt the play, but At all times i will have 2 out of Petit, Sammer and Janes free. At no point in this game are you able to create a period of possession where I become tactically outnumbered, yet I can do it to you at will here.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Same here. The only modern player I'm likely to pick in all time sense(who is not on his way to 30) is Neymar.. I too feel I'm underrating Kane, but it's hard to assess his level at the top even today. I rate Godin very high - probably the only modern day defender still playing who I won't hesitate picking in all time sense.

Even Neymar to me is still a bit of a question mark in the historic sense. For me I really need to see another year in the CL with him at PSG and this summer's WC to really try to rate Neymar in an all-time sense.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Same here. The only modern player I'm likely to pick in all time sense(who is not on his way to 30) is Neymar.. I too feel I'm underrating Kane, but it's hard to assess his level at the top even today. I rate Godin very high - probably the only modern day defender still playing who I won't hesitate picking in all time sense.

It's not difficult to hypothesize based on what he's done the last 3 seasons. He's on his way to becoming one of the all time great premier league forwards, so for the purposes of the draft just think of him as such. Sjor made a comparison with Higuain earlier which was a bit out of order IMO, there are so many examples of higuain choking at various points of his career. Kane is one of the top 3 players in the world most likely to get you a goal when you need one, thats why he is being talked about as a $200m player.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@Šjor Bepo

The graphic clearly shows the amount of space I can have on my right hand side. Leaving "The world champion of precision" with that much space is suicidal, especially when hes afforded the luxury of knowing he has 4 guys behind him who can look after your 3 attackers.

Now Lets be generous and say my left side does a good job against your right side. Bale or Facchetti have advanced up the pitch, and can keep attacking the byline or look inside for a pass. Now, in this instance you have (As you instructed) Dalglish dropping back to disrupt the play, but At all times i will have 2 out of Petit, Sammer and Janes free. At no point in this game are you able to create a period of possession where I become tactically outnumbered, yet I can do it to you at will here.

Assuming the ball is with Facchetti or Bale, im perfectly fine with Janes being free on the other side....the one that should be concerned is yourself as Best on the counter will murder you with Janes being so high there even though he has no use there. Will ignore the poor positioning of my players as thats not important now....

 

[Deleted member 101472]

I have to disagree with the bold. We can't just assume how Kane (or anyone) will perform at some level in the future. A lot of players looked like they would be consistent Ballon winners/top 3 for years to come but it didn't work out that way (Ronaldinho, Kaka, etc). Until Kane actually performs at an international tournament and/or consistent CL knockout performances he simply doesn't have the body of work to rate All-Time for me.
Godin and Bonucci have enough of their careers that we can judge them on what they did not what they might do. Kane is too much unrealized potential for me in all-time sense at this point and he comes against the weakest crop of PL defender generations in my lifetime. Anyway I won't post more as I personally hate Kane very much as a player so probably shouldn't continue.

So you knew about Bonucci 3 years ago? His stock rose massively in the last 2 years, but before that he really wasn't doing anything to merit the hype he had this summer.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Criminal misunderstanding of how a well drilled 5-4-1 beats a well-Drilled 4-4-2.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

So you knew about Bonucci 3 years ago? His stock rose massively in the last 2 years, but before that he really wasn't doing anything to merit the hype he had this summer.

Odd question but I knew about Bonucci 6 years ago. He's not some new hyped up player. I followed Serie A 2010-2012 when he was first being noticed. And I really don't want to harp on a single issue but I feel you are highly overrating Kane, even despite my dislike for the Spurs player (really trying to hold my tongue to not ruin this match thread by attacking Kane haha, I'm going to log out a while)

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Odd question but I knew about Bonucci 6 years ago. He's not some new hyped up player. I followed Serie A 2010-2012 when he was first being noticed. And I really don't want to harp on a single issue but I feel you are highly overrating Kane, even despite my dislike for the Spurs player (really trying to hold my tongue to not ruin this match thread by attacking Kane haha, I'm going to log out a while)

The guy outscored Messi and Ronaldo in a calendar year, has 2 PL golden boots and is on course for a 3rd, maybe your dislking for him is causing you to underrate him? Id be overrating him if he were up against GOAT defenders but hes not. they are modern, currently active and both would struggle against Kane.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

It's not difficult to hypothesize based on what he's done the last 3 seasons. He's on his way to becoming one of the all time great premier league forwards, so for the purposes of the draft just think of him as such. Sjor made a comparison with Higuain earlier which was a bit out of order IMO, there are so many examples of higuain choking at various points of his career. Kane is one of the top 3 players in the world most likely to get you a goal when you need one, thats why he is being talked about as a $200m player.

Again you with your magic ball....we just dont know how will Kane react to football at highest level and when pressure gets real, its one thing to lead the Spurs bunch towards top 4 spot but totally different actually winning something meaningful and perform under real pressure.
Higuain flopped, Ibra flopped, what guarantees you have that Kane wont as a give you an example of better player not performing in given circumstances. Maybe he will, maybe he wont, we dont know and until he does he will be questioned and rightly so!
Bonucci proved himself at the highest stage both with Juve and Italy, Park proved himself at United at the biggest stage where he was the first name of the teamsheet for Fergie for the big games.
And its a big difference being the main goal threat like Kane is and being an support player with limited tasks like Park is with us.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Again you with your magic ball....we just dont know how will Kane react to football at highest level and when pressure gets real, its one thing to lead the Spurs bunch towards top 4 spot but totally different actually winning something meaningful and perform under real pressure.
Higuain flopped, Ibra flopped, what guarantees you have that Kane wont as a give you an example of better player not performing in given circumstances. Maybe he will, maybe he wont, we dont know and until he does he will be questioned and rightly so! Bonucci proved himself at the highest stage both with Juve and Italy, Park proved himself at United at the biggest stage where he was the first name of the teamsheet for Fergie for the big games.
And its a big difference being the main goal threat like Kane is and being an support player with limited tasks like Park is with us.

Im not using a magic ball, its extrapolation. Yes it favours my argument because his body of work is consistently very good, but nonetheless, he'd score in this game.

The fact we are talking about him just lends to the fact that tactical considerations are secondary here.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Since Harry Kane has taken a walloping, let’s discuss Park Ji Sung.

1. Not a right midfielder
2. Couple of good games against PLAYMAKERS, he was NEVER deployed to look after powerful direct players. The reason he was so effective was because he could disrupt a team who relied on a passing game) but he’s so out of his depth here. Facchetti against him is up there with the biggest mismatches possible in this draft.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Since Harry Kane has taken a walloping, let’s discuss Park Ji Sung.

1. Not a right midfielder
2. Couple of good games against PLAYMAKERS, he was NEVER deployed to look after powerful direct players. The reason he was so effective was because he could disrupt a team who relied on a passing game) but he’s so out of his depth here. Facchetti against him is up there with the biggest mismatches possible in this draft.

1. What?
2. Small, fast, agile workhorse with great tackling whose main job is to defend.....yeah, i can see Facchetti being over the moon during the game.

Will he stop Facchetti entirely? Of course not but he is a good fit for the job and i can see Facc not having a great game which is enough for us as i see him as your biggest threat going forwards which says a lot about other players. Moreno is great from what i read but i reckon he is a bad fit to this team. Not one player next to him that would stretch my team or cause damage with intelligent movement(not saying they are crap at it but they are hardly upper tier when you consider players with high IQ movement)

 

[Deleted member 101472]

1. What?
2. Small, fast, agile workhorse with great tackling whose main job is to defend.....yeah, i can see Facchetti being over the moon during the game.

Will he stop Facchetti entirely? Of course not but he is a good fit for the job and i can see Facc not having a great game which is enough for us as i see Facchetti as your biggest threat going forwards which says a lot about other players. Moreno is great from what i read but i reckon he is a bad fit to this team. Not one player next to him that would stretch my team or cause damage with intelligent movement(not saying they are crap at it but they are hardly upper tier when you consider players with high IQ movement)

You must have missed Yaya Toure a few seasons ago, petits World Cup final goal and bales performances that turned him into the worlds most expensive player.

Parks best work under Ferguson came when he was deployed centrally to mark playmakers, whether they were from deep or number 10s. Did you ever see him man marking a player anywhere close to the stature and frame of Facchetti? It’s gettinh glossed over, when not one person could honestly say there’s anything other than one outcome and that’s Facchetti on top literally every time.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

I mean you literally have people struggling to see kane up against fecking Godin and bonucci but not one person comments on Park vs Facchetti

I’d say it’s what you expect from a united forum but you have Rush and Dalglish up front

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Park up against TRULY world class opposition. The guy gets Romanticised like a lot players of the fergie years but in an all time context, he can feck off. A squad player and nothing more.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

1. What?
2. Small, fast, agile workhorse with great tackling whose main job is to defend.....yeah, i can see Facchetti being over the moon during the game.

Will he stop Facchetti entirely? Of course not but he is a good fit for the job and i can see Facc not having a great game which is enough for us as i see him as your biggest threat going forwards which says a lot about other players. Moreno is great from what i read but i reckon he is a bad fit to this team. Not one player next to him that would stretch my team or cause damage with intelligent movement(not saying they are crap at it but they are hardly upper tier when you consider players with high IQ movement)

You’re just taking the piss now

 

[Šjor Bepo]

You must have missed Yaya Toure a few seasons ago, petits World Cup final goal and bales performances that turned him into the worlds most expensive player.

Parks best work under Ferguson came when he was deployed centrally to mark playmakers, whether they were from deep or number 10s. Did you ever see him man marking a player anywhere close to the stature and frame of Facchetti? It’s gettinh glossed over, when not one person could honestly say there’s anything other than one outcome and that’s Facchetti on top literally every time.

Petit was a defensive mid, Bale and Yaya were good players but they didnt rely much on movement of the ball(thats why they probably struggled a bit at highest level(Yaya as AM)).

I mean you literally have people struggling to see kane up against fecking Godin and bonucci but not one person comments on Park vs Facchetti

I’d say it’s what you expect from a united forum but you have Rush and Dalglish up front

maybe because Kane is your main threat up front and one of the most important links in your team while Park for us play a supporting role and a very limited one. Not to mention Park proved his class at both WC and CL, as well as winning the leagues while all ever Kane did so far was managing to move his Spurs side above Arsenal. And no, i dont think Park is good enough to play at this level usually but in a special tactical roles he can find his spot.

Yeah, lets shit on players just because they played for Liverpool.

Park up against TRULY world class opposition. The guy gets Romanticised like a lot players of the fergie years but in an all time context, he can feck off. A squad player and nothing more.

He is shit, Messi went past him few times.

You’re just taking the piss now

Not having a great game doesnt mean he wont get better of Park. I expect him to have a decent to good game but that wont be enough, thats the whole point of Park.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

 

[crappycraperson]

Sjor's backline is pretty bad IMO but think it is just about covered by the front 6. Park looks out of place in an all time draft but was a smart pick for this set up. Not sure he will cut it going forward though.

 

[crappycraperson]

I can see Kane getting criticism against some defenders in this draft but against Godin/Bonucci there is no scope for such arguments. He is absolutely fine there.

 

[Theon]

I can see Kane getting criticism against some defenders in this draft but against Godin/Bonucci there is no scope for such arguments. He is absolutely fine there.

I can see the logic of this. Kinda agree as in reality if Kane went up against Atletico or AC tomorrow you wouldn’t bet against him scoring.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

I can see Kane getting criticism against some defenders in this draft but against Godin/Bonucci there is no scope for such arguments. He is absolutely fine there.

Which has been mentioned numerous times, but other than yourself not one comment about Park v Facchetti.

I picked sjor as my preferred opponent so I could justify Kane.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

I can see the logic of this. Kinda agree as in reality if Kane went up against Atletico or AC tomorrow you wouldn’t bet against him scoring.

That’s why current active players can’t be overlooked. You don’t even need to stretch the imagination to imagine kane having a good game here. He can compete physically with those two CBS and will be left one on one often. Bonucci is going to be doing a lot of covering on that right side of sjors defence.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I can see the logic of this. Kinda agree as in reality if Kane went up against Atletico or AC tomorrow you wouldn’t bet against him scoring.

Of course, Godin is slowly getting to the point where you can say he is past his prime and AC is utter garbage....
I can sort of understand the criticism of Bonucci even though in general he is class above Kane in their positions(at this time, Kane will most likely get there) as he proved himself at highest level, 2 CL finals, numerous titles in italy, Euro finalists etc.

But what i dont get is the criticism and underrating of Godin. The guy is comfortably the best defender in the world for the last 5, 6 years if not more. In the era where every dog and their bone can score 20+ goals, where there are goal scoring records being broken almost every week this guy built a fortress and lead his team to the league title next to Ronaldo's Madrid and Messi's Barcelona, not only that he lead his team towards 2 CL finals and his team pretty much always has the best defence in the league(pure guess, cant be bothered to check) and i wouldnt be surprised if they were among top 3 in top 5 leagues even though LaLiga clubs play the best football offensive wise.

 

[2mufc0]

Of course, Godin is slowly getting to the point where you can say he is past his prime and AC is utter garbage....
I can sort of understand the criticism of Bonucci even though in general he is class above Kane in their positions(at this time, Kane will most likely get there) as he proved himself at highest level, 2 CL finals, numerous titles in italy, Euro finalists etc.

But what i dont get is the criticism and underrating of Godin. The guy is comfortably the best defender in the world for the last 5, 6 years if not more. In the era where every dog and their bone can score 20+ goals, where there are goal scoring records being broken almost every week this guy built a fortress and lead his team to the league title next to Ronaldo's Madrid and Messi's Barcelona, not only that he lead his team towards 2 CL finals and his team pretty much always has the best defence in the league(pure guess, cant be bothered to check) and i wouldnt be surprised if they were among top 3 in top 5 leagues even though LaLiga clubs play the best football offensive wise.

I’ve had this discussion before in a previous draft game reagarding Godin and he’s a siege defender where defensive tactive suit him best. He’s not an all round defender. Some good posts from @antohan About Godin on this page from a previous game:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-fifth-redcafe-sheep-draft-qf-enigma_87-vs-2mufc0.434922/page-2

 

[crappycraperson]

Of course, Godin is slowly getting to the point where you can say he is past his prime and AC is utter garbage....
I can sort of understand the criticism of Bonucci even though in general he is class above Kane in their positions(at this time, Kane will most likely get there) as he proved himself at highest level, 2 CL finals, numerous titles in italy, Euro finalists etc.

But what i dont get is the criticism and underrating of Godin. The guy is comfortably the best defender in the world for the last 5, 6 years if not more. In the era where every dog and their bone can score 20+ goals, where there are goal scoring records being broken almost every week this guy built a fortress and lead his team to the league title next to Ronaldo's Madrid and Messi's Barcelona, not only that he lead his team towards 2 CL finals and his team pretty much always has the best defence in the league(pure guess, cant be bothered to check) and i wouldnt be surprised if they were among top 3 in top 5 leagues even though LaLiga clubs play the best football offensive wise.

I don't think it is about people underrating Godin or Bonucci, it is more about you underrating Kane a bit IMO. Godin/Bonucci can shut out Kane but you can also see him scoring given he has support of Bale, Moreno. F.Luiz on the other hand is a terribly overrated/rated, I don't think he is capable of playing well in any other set up that a ultra defensive one like A.Madrid.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I’ve had this discussion before in a previous draft game reagarding Godin and he’s a siege defender where defensive tactive suit him best. He’s not an all round defender. Some good posts from @antohan About Godin on this page from a previous game:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-fifth-redcafe-sheep-draft-qf-enigma_87-vs-2mufc0.434922/page-2

he doesnt need to be an all-round defender/player to be a great player. Most players prefer certain setups, will we underrate Iniesta because he wouldnt be as good in a defensive setup as he is in possession based setup?

 

[2mufc0]

he doesnt need to be an all-round defender/player to be a great player. Most players prefer certain setups, will we underrate Iniesta because he wouldnt be as good in a defensive setup as he is in possession based setup?

All depends on your tactics really. In a defensive setup he’s fine imo. But to be an elite defender he needs to be able to play in differing setups.

 

[crappycraperson]

Which has been mentioned numerous times, but other than yourself not one comment about Park v Facchetti.

I picked sjor as my preferred opponent so I could justify Kane.

I see why you are frustrated over Park, given even Carrick got criticism in my game, Park is out of his depth in this pool. But given Sjor is playing 442, he just about fits in better than some other right wingers would have since it gives Best the freedom to play a free-ish role.

Fachetti vs him is ofcourse a complete mis-match But I don't think you needed Bale in there, Fachetti could have ran that wing on his own. Bale is better off in your set up as a right wing forward with Moreno in a more central role.

Overall I voted for sjor since I do think the Rush-Dalglish-Best-Robson-Souness set up has some legs and can cover for some other weak areas. Best being a match winner also tilts it in his favor.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I don't think it is about people underrating Godin or Bonucci, it is more about you underrating Kane a bit IMO. Godin/Bonucci can shut out Kane but you can also see him scoring given he has support of Bale, Moreno. F.Luiz on the other hand is a terribly overrated/rated, I don't think he is capable of playing well in any other set up that a ultra defensive one like A.Madrid.

My whole point about Kane is that we dont know how will he play at highest level, its not that he isnt good enough to play its the pure fact we just dont know and its unfair to just assume he will destroy it as we saw million times before there are no guarantees in football. At least thats my view of the things, me being right or wrong.
As for Luis, matters of opinion but this setup isnt that different from Atletico one. It was the plan to pick a great defensive unit as a whole, thats why i went deep into that Liverpool side, that and value for money.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

All depends on your tactics really. In a defensive setup he’s fine imo. But to be an elite defender he needs to be able to play in differing setups.

So that applies only for defenders or Iniesta isnt an elite midfielder?

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Of course, Godin is slowly getting to the point where you can say he is past his prime and AC is utter garbage....
I can sort of understand the criticism of Bonucci even though in general he is class above Kane in their positions(at this time, Kane will most likely get there) as he proved himself at highest level, 2 CL finals, numerous titles in italy, Euro finalists etc.

But what i dont get is the criticism and underrating of Godin. The guy is comfortably the best defender in the world for the last 5, 6 years if not more. In the era where every dog and their bone can score 20+ goals, where there are goal scoring records being broken almost every week this guy built a fortress and lead his team to the league title next to Ronaldo's Madrid and Messi's Barcelona, not only that he lead his team towards 2 CL finals and his team pretty much always has the best defence in the league(pure guess, cant be bothered to check) and i wouldnt be surprised if they were among top 3 in top 5 leagues even though LaLiga clubs play the best football offensive wise.

Aye, I'm surprised that Godin is getting a rough ride as he's generally well-received around here, and rightly so. Aside from his ability and credentials, there's just no room for lingering doubts about his suitability against the modern attacking patterns that you'd expect from an attacking line containing the likes of Kane/Toure/Bale, that you could feasibly question with older defenders. The Kane case is such an odd one in that he's so close to proving himself categorically at an all-time level but just not quite there yet. In 6 months time he could have turned in some huge CL knockout performances and blitzed the World Cup, but who knows what will happen.

Leaving out Barnes in favour of Park was a huge call. I see the logic behind not placing Best up against Facchetti from a voting perspective, but I'd have few worries about his aptitude for tracking back. I'm reading a Best biography now and teammates reckon he was both one of the fittest players at the club and one of the best tacklers. I do get that you'd rather him attack Janes than Facchetti, and I do applaud taking a decision purely on tactical fit rather than individual quality, but Best/Souness/Robson/Barnes is a 4-4-2 orgasm...i'm on the fence about most of the noteworthy aspects of this match tbh.

 

[crappycraperson]

My whole point about Kane is that we dont know how will he play at highest level, its not that he isnt good enough to play its the pure fact we just dont know and its unfair to just assume he will destroy it as we saw million times before there are no guarantees in football. At least thats my view of the things, me being right or wrong.
As for Luis, matters of opinion but this setup isnt that different from Atletico one. It was the plan to pick a great defensive unit as a whole, thats why i went deep into that Liverpool side, that and value for money.

Atletico's set up is not just about their back line, their whole team plays into their tactics. I voted for you because your team setup and write up geared it up to function as a classic UK 442 formation, not the Atletico's version of the same. It does not work as a version of the latter IMO and for the former you can't use Atletico as an argument to back up either Godin or Luis IMO.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Would have been interesting to see how many people would have voted for a draw.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Aye, I'm surprised that Godin is getting a rough ride as he's generally well-received around here, and rightly so. Aside from his ability and credentials, there's just no room for lingering doubts about his suitability against the modern attacking patterns that you'd expect from an attacking line containing the likes of Kane/Toure/Bale, that you could feasibly question with older defenders. The Kane case is such an odd one in that he's so close to proving himself categorically at an all-time level but just not quite there yet. In 6 months time he could have turned in some huge CL knockout performances and blitzed the World Cup, but who knows what will happen.

Leaving out Barnes in favour of Park was a huge call. I see the logic behind not placing Best up against Facchetti from a voting perspective, but I'd have few worries about his aptitude for tracking back. I'm reading a Best biography now and teammates reckon he was both one of the fittest players at the club and one of the best tacklers. I do get that you'd rather him attack Janes than Facchetti, and I do applaud taking a decision purely on tactical fit rather than individual quality, but Best/Souness/Robson/Barnes is a 4-4-2 orgasm...i'm on the fence about most of the noteworthy aspects of this match tbh.

Tactically we thought this is a better option, no point risking Best against Facchetti(battle that can go either way) as we can pretty much have a rested and fresh version on the other side against a much lesser player.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

So that applies only for defenders or Iniesta isnt an elite midfielder?

Surely would only apply to defenders, given they only have one job- defend.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Atletico's set up is not just about their back line, their whole team plays into their tactics. I voted for you because your team setup and write up geared it up to function as a classic UK 442 formation, not the Atletico's version of the same. It does not work as a version of the latter IMO and for the former you can't use Atletico as an argument to back up either Godin or Luis IMO.

Defensive wise its very similar, offensive wise its a bit different as the players i have are much better and we picked players that can execute well that transformation, at least in our opinion they can.

 

[crappycraperson]

Defensive wise its very similar, offensive wise its a bit different as the players i have are much better and we picked players that can execute well that transformation, at least in our opinion they can.

I am just gonna have to disagree there completely. So let's leave it at that.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Think Sjor has gotten an easy ride here without really having to do much. To see how my team works, it takes a little imagination but not that much.

I went with Bale in front of Facchetti to simply ensure that I have 2 players capable of covering every once of that left side for 120mins. It’s an effective combination at any level. The pattern of the game would be such that sjors team would be forced to utilize Souness and bonucci, which frees up so much space for Toure and Moreno, who will both undoubtedly find it time and time again.

What’s happening here is the tactical approach actually dictates what happens in the game. Contrast that with Sjor who is basically relying on “moments of magic”

 

[Fergus' son]

Park up against TRULY world class opposition. The guy gets Romanticised like a lot players of the fergie years but in an all time context, he can feck off. A squad player and nothing more.

Are you implying that Pirlo wasn't truly world class?

I gey your point re Fachetti and Park but showing Messi running past him a few times does little to illustrate it imo.