Auction Draft SF : GSTQ vs. Enigma/Don Alfredo

[Enigma_87]

@GodShaveTheQueen I think you need to cool off a bit mate. You get too defensive to lead some sort of meaningful discussion

Again, did you read the post? Where do you see me comparing Blokhin to Best?

Boy, you are good at pulling stuff out of thin air to make your opposition sound stupid at all costs. Good job with that.

Why bring up Blokhin then when he's facing Best then?

 

[Zlatan 7]

@Enigma_87 fair enough, dysfunctional was a bit much and I did ponder over that word before posting but couldn’t think of a better one. I meant that I could see that they had different styles that would have to work together and it’s not a given it would.


I don’t know what you mean here?..

You tend to fall with what has been recently in terms of some of the best players not being able to work in drafts, which IMO is a nonsense.

If I get it right, if anything I just argued exactly against that point in the other SF match. That big names work regardless of tactics.

Re The players apadpting to roles, I actually agree with you and it’s how I initially tried to build teams but it was highlighted to me that is not where certain players played at their best. since then I’ve gone with and assumed that players should be judged within their teams to what they actually did at their best.
You’re asking Best to adapt to your system but that’s not necessarily Best at his best. I agree with you that he would adapt to it but also in 2 minds as to whether you should just pick a player that would not need to adapt his style to fit.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Have you read my post? The CB pair makes a world of difference to any CM unit or opposition. Just watch our games from last season to see our cowardly approach because Jose couldn't trust his CB's..

If you think they don't matter in possession based unit I have really nothing to say..

We were talking about my midfield and not yours.

Anyways, gone wayward, II will leave this point.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

@GodShaveTheQueen I think you need to cool off a bit mate. You get too defensive to lead some sort of meaningful discussion

Am cool as a cucumber and shall type the similar way for the next 24 hours since I see nothing wrong it

Of course, you might find me aggressive with my arguments if I see lots of nonsensical posts. Cant help it.

 

[harms]

Question 1, how on earth does George Best suite such a setup?

I'm in two minds about that. He looks like an obvious misfit with Cruyff and Xaviniesta around, but then Pep, who made that midfield what it is, in his juego de posicion puts a lot of focus on isolating the opposition's fullbacks against his wingers 1 on 1. You can see how important the likes of Sterling/Sane/Mahrez/B. Silva are for his set up. Best would absolutely thrive in that situations and I can see him sacrificing a bit of his freedom to maximise his influence.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Why bring up Blokhin then when he's facing Best then?

Because Blokhin is a great player from the left?

Because a good defender should be able to defend against the likes of Blokhin to be called a good defender?

Because the post was more about how Brailian fullbacks get judged and not specific to this game?

Because the big post was to talk about Leandro in general and not his battle against Best?

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87 fair enough, dysfunctional was a bit much and I did ponder over that word before posting but couldn’t think of a better one. I meant that I could see that they had different styles that would have to work together and it’s not a given it would.


I don’t know what you mean here?..


If I get it right, if anything I just argued exactly against that point in the other SF match. That big names work regardless of tactics.

Re The players apadpting to roles, I actually agree with you and it’s how I initially tried to build teams but it was highlighted to me that is not where certain players played at their best. since then I’ve gone with and assumed that players should be judged within their teams to what they actually did at their best.
You’re asking Best to adapt to your system but that’s not necessarily Best at his best. I agree with you that he would adapt to it but also in 2 minds as to whether you should just pick a player that would not need to adapt his style to fit.

Big names usually work as we've seen big games decided by big names. This is the reason why they did become big in the first place

You have to take into account the opposition, whether that name would fit in the set up - I can see Best functioning at his best here obviously for the very reason that the midfield and forwards next to him can be selfless and can find open spaces for him - it was what our midfield did best.

What you get in dysfunctional unit is throwing Best in a zona mista or some cattenaccio set up and expect him to dribble through 7 players to win a draft game, which would make it more or less hyperbolic.

Best is great with ball in his feet, but his movement is often underrated. How many times we have seen him exploit the space after a long ball and deciding the game?

 

[Enigma_87]

I'm in two minds about that. He looks like an obvious misfit with Cruyff and Xaviniesta around, but then Pep, who made that midfield what it is, in his juego de posicion puts a lot of focus on isolating the opposition's fullbacks against his wingers 1 on 1. You can see how important the likes of Sterling/Sane/Mahrez/B. Silva are for his set up. Best would absolutely thrive in that situations and I can see him sacrificing a bit of his freedom to maximise his influence.

Yes, exactly this is the point of Best. He will stretch the opposition defence and our midfield could easily isolate him 1 on 1 where he's in his zone to create danger.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I'm in two minds about that. He looks like an obvious misfit with Cruyff and Xaviniesta around, but then Pep, who made that midfield what it is, in his juego de posicion puts a lot of focus on isolating the opposition's fullbacks against his wingers 1 on 1. You can see how important the likes of Sterling/Sane/Mahrez/B. Silva are for his set up. Best would absolutely thrive in that situations and I can see him sacrificing a bit of his freedom to maximise his influence.

Heyy, I would be an idiot of the highest order if I said Best won't have any impact on the game.

Ibra hated playing for that Barca and still scored 20 goals in all competitions that season.

The quality shall always be there and you will see it in some form at some times.

But is it a setup that he would love to play in or get the maximum or even close to that out of him?
Is Cruyff the player that could function with him with both being anywhere near their best? I dont think so.

 

[Enigma_87]

Because Blokhin is a great player from the left?

Because a good defender should be able to defend against the likes of Blokhin to be called a good defender?

Because the post was more about how Brailian fullbacks get judged and not specific to this game?

Because the big post was to talk about Leandro in general and not his battle against Best?

That literally makes no sense mate. Evra was struggling with Lennon, does that mean that he'll be struggling with every half decent RW? Blokhin and Best are nothing alike, @harms would agree with me. Not sure why you keep banging on that in order to draw similarity with Best...

 

[Enigma_87]

Am cool as a cucumber and shall type the similar way for the next 24 hours since I see nothing wrong it

Of course, you might find me aggressive with my arguments if I see lots of nonsensical posts. Cant help it.

I'll let the neutrals join the discussion for the next couple of hours. I find it way too aggressive mate and I can say the same in regards to your arguments.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

That literally makes no sense mate. Evra was struggling with Lennon, does that mean that he'll be struggling with every half decent RW?

Okay, thanks

Blokhin and Best are nothing alike, @harms would agree with me. Not sure why you keep banging on that in order to draw similarity with Best...

Did I anywhere compare them? Did I say because Leandro stopped Blokhin, he will stop Best? Did I even say Leandro fully stopped Blokhin to no ends? Did I anywhere actually from the start say Leandro will stop Best all ends?

This is the only thing I said

I know he is perfectly suitable for my team and a very good fit with Ferrara's support against the opponent in question (George Best).

Suitable for my team. Even that offends you. I might as well hand it over to you and say Best will tear his shorts no end and will score a hattrick in the first 15 mins.

And then you ask me to cool down with this non sense

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I'll let the neutrals join the discussion for the next couple of hours. I find it way too aggressive mate and I can say the same in regards to your arguments.

Yea, lets wait for that. I find your arguments way too nonsensical to see the discussion going somewhere proper.

Putting words at will in my mouth has been the best part though. Gotta learn some of these tricks

 

[Enigma_87]

Okay, thanks


Did I anywhere compare them? Did I say because Leandro stoppped Blokhin, he will stop Best? Did I anyhwere actually from the start say Leandro will stop Best all ends?

This is the only thing I said



Suitable for my team. Even that offends you. I might as well hand it over to you and say Best will tear his shorts no end and will score a hattrick in the first 15 mins.

And then you ask me to cool down with this non sense

Then why bring up Blokhin in the first place?

Yea, lets wait for that. I find your arguments way too nonsensical to see the discussion going somewhere proper.

Putting words at will in my mouth has been the best part though. Gotta learn some of these tricks

Can really say the same, so let's leave it for the neutrals.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Then why bring up Blokhin in the first place?

Because I was trying to establish and correct Leandro's legacy as a player here and no talking about the match up with Best?

Jesus, is it that difficult to understand?

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

@harms

Best would absolutely thrive in that situations and I can see him sacrificing a bit of his freedom to maximise his influence.

Disagree with this.

Just to add to your earlier post, this is from the "All time team around Cruyff" thread.

While I already agreed with you that someone like Best will always have an impact on the game, hope you still agree with that below post of yours

Gento - Cruyff - Best
Gullit - Neeskens
Rijkaard
Krol - Baresi - Figueroa - Cafu
Neuer

Not sure that he'd like Best tbh, I can see the clashes in personality and playing style. Best will never accept Cruyff being the top dog and Cruyff won't like if Best is going to demand the ball all of the time instead of keeping the shape.
@Enigma_87

 

[Enigma_87]

Because I was trying to establish and correct Leandro's legacy as a player here and no talking about the match up?

Jesus, is it that difficult to understand?

Because it's making no sense as Blokhin and Best are completely different players as I've said multiple times.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

One real tale that involves the meeting of Cruyff and George Best was when the Dutch side took on Northern Ireland.

(Journalist) Elliot: What do you think of Cruyff?

Best: Outstanding.

Elliot: Better than you?

Best: [Laughing] You’re kidding aren’t you? I’ll tell you what I’ll do tonight… I’ll nutmeg Cruyff the first chance I get.





Elliot since gave his take on how Best's prophecy came true:

"Five minutes into the game Best received the ball wide on the left. Instead of heading towards goal he turned directly infield, weaved his way past at least three Dutchmen and found his way to Cruyff who was wide right.

"He took the ball to his opponent, dipped a shoulder twice and slipped it between Cruyff’s feet. As he ran round to collect it and run on he raised his right fist into the air.

"Only a few of us in the press box knew what this bravado act really meant. Johan Cruyff the best in the world? Are you kidding? Only an idiot would have thought that on this evening."

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Best seems like an odd fit for a Cruyff tactic. Also I rate Leandro as probably better defensively than Alves

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

No, Best will never accept Cruyff to be the top dog. The above real game incident is a testament to that.

George Best sacrificing himself while being asked to be second Best? No fecking ways

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Because it's making no sense as Blokhin and Best are completely different players as I've said multiple times.

Rinse, Repeat

Because I was trying to establish and correct Leandro's legacy as a player here and no talking about the match up with Best?

Jesus, is it that difficult to understand?

 

[2mufc0]

One real tale that involves the meeting of Cruyff and George Best was when the Dutch side took on Northern Ireland in 1976.

(Journalist) Elliot: What do you think of Cruyff?

Best: Outstanding.

Elliot: Better than you?

Best: [Laughing] You’re kidding aren’t you? I’ll tell you what I’ll do tonight… I’ll nutmeg Cruyff the first chance I get.





Elliot since gave his take on how Best's prophecy came true:

"Five minutes into the game Best received the ball wide on the left. Instead of heading towards goal he turned directly infield, weaved his way past at least three Dutchmen and found his way to Cruyff who was wide right.

"He took the ball to his opponent, dipped a shoulder twice and slipped it between Cruyff’s feet. As he ran round to collect it and run on he raised his right fist into the air.

"Only a few of us in the press box knew what this bravado act really meant. Johan Cruyff the best in the world? Are you kidding? Only an idiot would have thought that on this evening."

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Bonhof is one of those players that gets a free pass in drafts due to his versatility but I don't see him being a decisive figure in a midfield battle against Xaviesta and Busquets behin

I almost forgot this piece of Gold.

This is the same guy who won a WC final playing in the midfield in the same role against none other than Cruyff's greatest Dutch team of all times which had the likes of Neekens and Van Hanegem in it along with Cruyff.

Good enough against Total Voetball but not against the Cruyff inspired setup here? Wow, diss him just because he is not a shiny name even though there are actual real world examples.

Anyways, story time.

Not many people here probably know that Bonhof actually had a Dutch nationality when he was young. So he was friends with the lads from the Dutch team.

Sometime after the WC (not exactly sure when), there was a tribute party for Bonhof and Cruyff was invited as well.

This is how Bonhof tells the story

I remember that on the day of my tribute party, I invited Johan [Cruyff] and he told me. "You should have played with us." And I said: "You had Neeskens; they (Germans) needed a Bonhof. "

That is how high Cruyff rated him. Good enough to play in his team. To call him a free pass player is as ludicrous as it gets.

 

[Enigma_87]

@GodShaveTheQueen I don't really like that aggressive type of discussion on your part so I'll step down at the time being and let the neutrals decide.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

@GodShaveTheQueen I don't really like that aggressive type of discussion on your part so I'll step down at the time being and let the neutrals decide.

That is your call, you can do whatever you want. I am not a fan of your nonsensical way of discussion either putting words into your opponents mouth or dismissing opposition players just because as you say, they are not 'shiny' enough for you or are 'free pass' players in your eyes.

Go read back the thread, I have not dissed a single one of your players. Not once. That is how I play these games and I expect the same from the opposition. Criticism should be given to players where deserved, but not just because they are in the opposition like you have been doing.

I'll call a spade a spade and I'll call bullshit as nothing other than bullshit.

 

[Enigma_87]

That is your call, you can do whatever you want. I am not a fan of your nonsensical way of discussion either putting words into your opponents mouth or dismissing opposition players just because as you say, they are not 'shiny' enough for you or are 'free pass' players in your eyes.

Go read back the thread, I have not dissed a single one of your players. Not once. That is how I play these games and I expect the same from the opposition. Criticism should be given to players where deserved, but not just because they are in the opposition like you have been doing.

I'll call a spade a spade and I'll call bullshit as nothing other than bullshit.

I've been around these drafts for long time mate, but your approach really puts me off. If all that is just to win the game I can't really do much more.

First time I've seen such aggressive approach around here.

As I've said I'll let it cool off regardless of the score. You can keep disregarding my views to your wish.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I've been around these drafts for long time mate, but your approach really puts me off. If all that is just to win the game I can't really do much more.

First time I've seen such aggressive approach around here.

To be fair, among all my games here, first time I have seen such unethical way of discussing a draft game as well.

 

[Enigma_87]

To be fair, among all my games here, first time I have seen such unethical way of discussing a draft game as well.

I'm not sure how you found any of what I said offensive, but I guess each one to his own. You can continue with the bullshit kindergarten stuff, I'm out of it.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I'm not sure how you found any of what I said offensive

Oh, you are the only one offended here running away from questions being raised to your unethical nonsensical bullshit posts.
Call me aggressive all you want, its not going to change the fact that all you have done is talk bullshit about my players while I have not dissed a single one of yours through the whole thread.
That is the standard I set myself to. As I said, go read the thread. Where have I dissed any one of your players even once and how many times you have dissed mine.
Its my defense for my players that irks you, not the aggressiveness against your players (which I havent done even once).

You can continue with the bullshit kindergarten stuff, I'm out of it.

Sure, I'll continue defending Bonhof and Mauro Silva even though they are not 'shiny' enough.
Maybe I should have polished the picture in my OP before uploading it.

 

[harms]

Disagree with this.

Just to add to your earlier post, this is from the "All time team around Cruyff" thread.

While I already agreed with you that someone like Best will always have an impact on the game, hope you still agree with that below post of yours

As I said, I’m in two minds about this, and there’s certainly a personality clash that can backfire. Although Cruyff did play with Rensenbrink who was comparable to Best stylistically (with none of his ego though). It definitely can backfire, but it also can work...

I still wouldn’t choose Best for Cruyff if I had a free pick from an all-time pool, like we had in that thread, that’s for sure.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

As I said, I’m in two minds about this, and there’s certainly a personality clash that can backfire. Although Cruyff did play with Rensenbrink who was comparable to Best stylistically (with none of his ego though). It definitely can backfire, but it also can work...

I still wouldn’t choose Best for Cruyff if I had a free pick from an all-time pool, like we had in that thread, that’s for sure.

Yea, that analysis I can agree with.

 

[harms]

This is how Bonhof tell the story

That is how high Cruyff rated him. Good enough to play in his team. To call him a free pass player is as ludicrous as it gets

Interesting. I wonder if he was aware of the German chant from 1974, “We have Bonhof, who is Cruyff”?

 

[Enigma_87]

Interesting. I wonder if he was aware of the German chant from 1974, “We have Bonhof, who is Cruyff”?

I am, still that doesn't change my mind regarding the midfield battle on him. I know you love him so if you think him and Mauro Silva are enough to negate the impact of our midfield on the game, fair enough

 

[harms]

I am, still that doesn't change my mind regarding the midfield battle on him. I know you love him so if you think him and Mauro Silva are enough to negate the impact of our midfield on the game, fair enough

Well, he has the energy and skill to not disappear, at least — he'll buzz around for 90 minutes and will bring the ball forward when given a chance. Obviously the midfield battle, if you can even call it that, is a little one-sided here. I'm not the biggest fan of Mauro Silva as well, even though he was a quality player.

 

[Physiocrat]

Whilst Mauro Silva wouldn't be my first go to in a 3412 given the counterattacking nature of GSTQ setup I don't see the particular issue. That said a better long range passer would have been better to transition from deep. At present it is pretty much just on Baresi. Redondo would probably be the best player for such a role. Whilst Leandro could well be a better defender than I have previously given him credit for he is up against Best. Also you do have the all-time Brazilian front three. There's no other Brazilian player I would sub in, in your front three.

I really don't know what to make of Engima's team. It could be brilliant or it just won't mesh. Best has already been mentioned by others but I'm ot sure how Iniesta and Busquets will fair in a more direct style than Tiki Taki. Much more than Xavi they aren't the same players outside a patient possession game. Also how good was Clemence with the ball at his feet relative to say Victor Valdes.

 

[Enigma_87]

Well, he has the energy and skill to not disappear, at least — he'll buzz around for 90 minutes and will bring the ball forward when given a chance. Obviously the midfield battle, if you can even call it that, is a little one-sided here. I'm not the biggest fan of Mauro Silva as well, even though he was a quality player.

Yeah, naturally. I've only criticized Mauro Silva in this set up which IMO is fair enough and he isn't the right type of player for it. Obviously he will not disappear but is inferior to who he's up against.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Obviously the midfield battle, if you can even call it that, is a little one-sided here

Well, I think it should be called the possession battle rather the possesion battle in your post. Mine is a reactive team, Dogma's is proactive.

Winning the midfield battle for me would be to not letting Xaviesta create chances freely, breaking up play, closing down quickly, not leaving gaps and starting quick counters.

Both Bonhof and Silva were known for their unlimited Stamina and while Bonhof can bring it forwards, Silva can lay it forward if not be a marauding runner.

While the possession battle can be one sided, the midfield battle will not be. Both teams have different goal posts when it comes to the midfield.

 

[Enigma_87]

Whilst Mauro Silva wouldn't be my first go to in a 3412 given the counterattacking nature of GSTQ setup I don't see the particular issue. That said a better long range passer would have been better to transition from deep. At present it is pretty much just on Baresi. Redondo would probably be the best player for such a role. Whilst Leandro could well be a better defender than I have previously given him credit for he is up against Best. Also you do have the all-time Brazilian front three. There's no other Brazilian player I would sub in, in your front three.

I really don't know what to make of Engima's team. It could be brilliant or it just won't mesh. Best has already been mentioned by others but I'm ot sure how Iniesta and Busquets will fair in a more direct style than Tiki Taki. Much more than Xavi they aren't the same players outside a patient possession game. Also how good was Clemence with the ball at his feet relative to say Victor Valdes.

It's still possession side and pretty much close to the tiki taka they excelled in. Clemence is one that we have confidence in taking the ball out of the defence and was very good with ball in his feet and distributing it from the back.

As already mentioned, Cruyff and Best would certainly strive with their movement from the creative spine behind and Xavi and Iniesta can find space like no other.

What is overlooked is the quality Cruyff and Best bring to the table breaking up a team that would most likely be camped at the back. They are exactly the type of players you would expect to give the opposition a torrid time.

We often talk about how each player will mesh with each other, but you do need to look the opposition defence and whether both of them have the particular qualities to excel against them and to me they do.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Whilst Mauro Silva wouldn't be my first go to in a 3412 given the counterattacking nature of GSTQ setup I don't see the particular issue. That said a better long range passer would have been better to transition from deep. At present it is pretty much just on Baresi. Redondo would probably be the best player for such a role

Leandro was an amazing long passer as well. (His passing was better than his crossing). Lets not forget Ferrara was a sweeper too with a good passing range. Zico's passing range was brilliant and considering I have Ro-Ro upfront, I wouldn't need him to constantly be in the final third. Not that he is asked to stay back but he will get those chances too in different phases.

And of course Mauro was pretty good on the ball. Not Redondo good of course, but definitely functional.

The reason to choose him of course is his stamina. You need loads of that against Xaviesta. Redondo might have fallen short a bit here I think.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

It could be brilliant or it just won't mesh. Best has already been mentioned by others but I'm ot sure how Iniesta and Busquets will fair in a more direct style than Tiki Taki. Much more than Xavi they aren't the same players outside a patient possession game.

For me, Best has bigger concerns than just his coherence with Cruyff.

Would Xaviesta love playing with a player with so many individual instincts? (Ibra and Guardiola worked out so badly after all).

The whole philosophy of tiki taka is built around short passing, being available for each other, making small triangles, making runs for others, putting the team above yourselves etc.

Sure, he could work sometimes, he was a GOAT after all, but Best is definitely not going to offer you all that mentioned above while still being asked to sacrifice w.r.t Cruyff as well.

When it comes down to 'it could maybe' with so many Ifs, it mostly doesn't.