Auction Draft: Round 1 - GSTQ vs. Arbitrium

[Deleted member 101472]

He was also in the team of the tournament for a World Cup winning side being remembered for scoring 4 goals instead of being remembered for this

I said in the summer that Neymar's woeful antics at WC18 were going to cost him in draft ratings for me

Thanks for the contribution of completely discrediting one of my players. Remember we consider them at their peak and with their ability to adapt to the players around them, so given the amount of sensational performances he's been able to put in with some of my other team members present on the pitch, I think ill back him to be doing this instead;

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Of course I rate zico higher FFS

Knowing you, I couldn't be so sure.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

@GodShaveTheQueen

Re your point on messi v Italian defences. He doesn't need to get near your centre backs to influence the game



Everyone should have seen enough of him by now to know that at the top of his game, he simply has too many ways to hurt you. Him against Ferri, Branco or Tigana is pretty much a pointless discussion, and even if all three come after him the guy is capable of this against anyone

Edit: "Oh, hey Branco...BYE. Oh thats nice you brought Jean and Ricardo to help...Adios. I think ill go round Franco for the fun of it, feckin prick that he is"

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Knowing you, I couldn't be so sure.

I do think David Silva is a magician. For me he's in the top 5 premiership players of all time. A joy to watch, but i just enjoy his style of play. His ability to dictate a game is up with the best.

 

[Synco]

Mbappe has never played in a 2 up top so it’s difficult to review him here

Quite obviously you dont watch him at all apart from the odd big UCL game here and there. After Neymar got injured, he and Cavani have been playing upfront as a strike pair.

In Mbappe's breakthrough season 16/17 at Monaco he mainly played in a 4-4-2 upfront with Falcao. But I can't really say if that has implications on the setup here.

-----
In general, I don't think similarities between Ronaldo and Mbappe prevent good chemistry in the counter-attacking setup GSTQ envisions. On the contrary, their pace, mobility and knack for movement should make a great combination. I can see Mbappe using space extensively, like drifting to the right on the break to create space/feed balls for Ronaldo and eventually Zico pushing up centrally. (Or Bonhof, who could make these runs too.)

Arbitrium's possession-based setup theoretically offers the required space behind the formation when losing the ball. The answers to two questions would influence GSTQ's chances imo, but I don't know the players enough to judge:

1. How good is that team playing around aggressive counterpressing (which I'd expect from Arbitrium's team)? If they manage to get behind the initial pressing to release the attackers, the result could be devastating. (Although tbf, Ramos on a good day is an excellent player for defending situations like that. Not so sure about Godin.) If the opponent can routinely prevent that, they could be choked.

2. Are there other expert long passers than Zico (and deeper than him) with the ability to immediately release the forwards into space after dodging the counterpressing? Baresi, Kaltz perhaps? That would be a massive threat in transition. (Thinking of Pogba -> Mbappe in the WC final before the 3-1, or Sneijder -> Robben against Spain 2014.)

 

[Deleted member 101472]

@Fortitude

Don’t need to vote but get involved in the discussion if you wish

 

[Deleted member 101472]

In Mbappe's breakthrough season 16/17 at Monaco he mainly played in a 4-4-2 upfront with Falcao. But I can't really say if that has implications on the setup here.

-----
In general, I don't think similarities between Ronaldo and Mbappe prevent good chemistry in the counter-attacking setup GSTQ envisions. On the contrary, their pace, mobility and knack for movement should make a great combination. I can see Mbappe using space extensively, like drifting to the right on the break to create space/feed balls for Ronaldo and eventually Zico pushing up centrally. (Or Bonhof, who could make these runs too.)

Arbitrium's possession-based setup theoretically offers the required space behind the formation when losing the ball. The answers to two questions would influence GSTQ's chances imo, but I don't know the players enough to judge:

1. How good is that team playing around aggressive counterpressing (which I'd expect from Arbitrium's team)? If they manage to get behind the initial pressing to release the attackers, the result could be devastating. (Although tbf, Ramos on a good day is an excellent player for defending situations like that. Not so sure about Godin.) If the opponent can routinely prevent that, they could be choked.

2. Are there other expert long passers than Zico (and deeper than him) with the ability to immediately release the forwards into space after dodging the counterpressing? Baresi, Kaltz perhaps? That would be a massive threat in transition. (Thinking of Pogba -> Mbappe in the WC final before the 3-1, or Sneijder -> Robben against Spain 2014.)

Nice post. I don’t think mbappe and Ronaldo has any chance of not working, if you’re going to limit it your defenders have to be smart/quick or both and my full backs have engines enough to recover and help put, Godin is smart enough not to get too tight and burnt for pace and Ramos on his day is just an excellent defender who players struggle to get by.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I do think David Silva is a magician. For me he's in the top 5 premiership players of all time. A joy to watch, but i just enjoy his style of play. His ability to dictate a game is up with the best.

I understand. For me the only 3 players in PL that I've watched and wished they we're in our team are Silva, Aguero and Xabi Alonso. I'm close to adding Neves as the fourth. I rate him quite highly.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Thanks for the contribution of completely discrediting one of my players. Remember we consider them at their peak and with their ability to adapt to the players around them, so given the amount of sensational performances he's been able to put in with some of my other team members present on the pitch, I think ill back him to be doing this instead;

If this was a real match, he runs a risk of cards for simulation. If you or others don't think so thats fair too but its part of how I imagine the match. I also think Zico has a great match up against Ocwirk along with a solid platform in Tigana and Bonhof. Combined with the back 3, I think this entire set-up is built to absorb the types of attacks you favor while Zico along with Ronaldo have very favorable match-ups.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

If this was a real match, he runs a risk of cards for simulation. If you or others don't think so thats fair too but its part of how I imagine the match. I also think Zico has a great match up against Ocwirk along with a solid platform in Tigana and Bonhof. Combined with the back 3, I think this entire set-up is built to absorb the types of attacks you favor while Zico along with Ronaldo have very favorable match-ups.

It’s really difficult to tell with Ocwirk. I think if he’s on the ball you’d want your team to press him high and tight and that’s not going to come from RMZ. There’s so many different patterns to see developing in this game, I can easily see the following being man of the match here

Ronaldo
Zico
Baresi
Ocwirk
Messi
Eusebio
Dani Alves
Victor Valdes

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

It’s really difficult to tell with Ocwirk. I think if he’s on the ball you’d want your team to press him high and tight and that’s not going to come from RMZ. There’s so many different patterns to see developing in this game, I can easily see the following being man of the match here

Ronaldo
Zico
Baresi
Ocwirk
Messi
Eusebio
Dani Alves
Victor Valdes

I'd tip Ravelli to have the better than Valdes myself. He is known for big game saves.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

I'd tip Ravelli to have the better than Valdes myself. He is known for big game saves.

Both underwhelming and belong nowhere near the draft. Valdés is excellent with his feet though and fit the theme as good as any. His ability to sweeper keep could come in handy too against Ronaldo mbappe

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Nice article on valdes

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/inews.c...nchester-united-middlesbrough-goalkeeper/amp/

Easy to forget he was a key element of the best club Team of all time.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

With regards Mbappe, he seems to be getting a bit too much of a free ride here. Had he not won the world cup with France, i doubt he'd have been considered for this draft let alone a starting spot, but at the 2018 world cup he came up against the perennial powerhouse defences of Australia, Peru and Denmark. Then Marcos Rojo et al in the last 16, before resorting to this because he didn't have as good a game v uruguay (just happened to contain one half of my cb duo)



He was poor against Belgium (umtiti won man of the match) and his final performance which was undoubtedly excellent came against a defence including vida and Dejan Lovren. Here, he's up against the best stopper of his generation, the man who is as responsible as any for the temporary break up of the la liga duopoly, and sergio ramos, one of the most decorated defenders in the history of the sport, who will ultimately grow in legend and stature from the moment he retires. in fact, I don't really remember mbappe coming up against many fantastic cb duo's and making them look stupid. Case in point;



To think he can just automatically have a good game against a backline that between them has won everything the game has to offer is ludicrous.

 

[P-Nut]

Surprised with the hate Ocwirk is getting to be honest. I've always had him down as being an excellent defensive midfielder with good on the ball ability to dictate the play.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Surprised with the hate Ocwirk is getting to be honest. I've always had him down as being an excellent defensive midfielder with good on the ball ability to dictate the play.

Don’t know if it’s hate he’s getting as opposed to lack of respect. He’s fine where he is and will get plenty time to dictate and do what he does best.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

How do we rate David Silva compared to Zico? I’d argue Silva has been more successful internationally and at club level but it doesn’t need to be an argument, he has been. For me he’s one of those players that is highly thought of, but still underrated. He can pull the strings against any opposition and whilst he’s not a conventional number 10 here (he doesn’t have to be) he offers more as a total midfielder than Zico ever could.

With regards Mbappe, he seems to be getting a bit too much of a free ride here. Had he not won the world cup with France, i doubt he'd have been considered for this draft let alone a starting spot

Haven't read the whole thread yet as just woke up but these put a smile on my face in the morning. Thanks Arbitrium

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

One player I don't understand here is Mbappe. He offers nothing that Ronaldo doesn't

Do they have to be very different?

Both of them share a few common obvious traits in pace, trickery, scoring etc.

But some other less obvious traits they share are -

1. Being unselfish - Ronaldo created a hell lot of chances for players around. Mbappe too is on a similar path.
2. Played around a lot of great players without too much discomfort

Also, Mbappe has a lot more of a presence in wider areas.

For me, Mbappe at his peak (not right now of course) along with a peak Ronaldo will look quite similar to Ronaldo-Romario.
Of course, I can't use that argument in this game to seek votes as we are not voting based on potential, but the point I am trying to make is, stylistically at least Ronaldo-Mbappe shares a lot of traits of the Ronaldo-Romario combination.

Especially with Kaltz as RWB, you want someone to win headers in the middle

That is a good point but it does limit Kaltz to a cross pinging player. He had amazing long passing range for a wing back which would be tremendous on counters considering the pace I have up front. In fact, he played as a libero/sweeper for a good amount of time in his career.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I don’t know enough of those 2 defenders either side of baresi other than what’s been posted in this thread, to know how they would truly cope with messi and neymar running either side at them. I’ll look those up those now.

I plan to make a more detailed post on that defense if I do go through this round. Didn't have the time to make it for this game.
Obviously, my plan is to not replace them going ahead anytime soon because of their proven track record.
Just as an example -

To the folks questioning Ferri here:

Here's his record with Baresi for Italy -

They played 42 games together and conceded just 19 goals. How is that for a stat?

@2mufc0 @Šjor Bepo

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fra...ium=2&wettbewerb=&liga=&verein=&pos=&status=0

You can’t be punished for not having chemistry because your front two played 4 decades apart

Of course you can't. But proven chemistry does deserve extra points IMO.

For example, it will be difficult to dispute the Ferri-Baresi-Ferrara chemistry or the Messi-Alves chemistry.

You can always doubt and discuss the Ronaldo-Mbappe chemistry for example, but proven partnerships are aces in drafts IMO.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Surprised with the hate Ocwirk is getting to be honest. I've always had him down as being an excellent defensive midfielder with good on the ball ability to dictate the play.

Surprised by this comment mate.
Actually, Ocwirk has not gotten any hate (at least not from me even though he faces Zico).
Arbit's midfield is well built to complement his front 3.
I rate Ocwirk well enough and while I don't think there is a problem with the midfield, its the defense behind him that needs to be more ruthless and reliable.

Ocwirk was someone who pushed his team forward and was the free man always available to pass to (extra man in attack).
His defensive reading of the game helped a lot with counters. He was not your everyday ruthless DM.

But you would want a more ruthless CB pairing behind him to cover up for his mistakes.

Obviously with Ocwirk playing the role he is, it has to be a high line (if its not, it breaks the whole idea up), and Godin just doesn't fit there for me.
Ramos, I dont rate enough at all. Always has mistakes up his sleeve.

A more stronger defense behind Ocwirk capable of functioning both in the setup and being more ruthless would have earned more respect for Ocwirk IMO.

He is kind of like a Pirlo/Bozsik with better defensive capabilities but lesser play making abilities. But like Pirlo and Bozsik, you have to create the right environment around him.
Silva and Coluna fit the bill. Godin and Ramos don't. At least for me, they don't.

 

[P-Nut]

Surprised by this comment mate.
Actually, Ocwirk has not gotten any hate (at least not from me even though he faces Zico).
Arbit's midfield is well built to complement his front 3.
I rate Ocwirk well enough and while I don't think there is a problem with the midfield, its the defense behind him that needs to be more ruthless and reliable.

Ocwirk was someone who pushed his team forward and was the free man always available to pass to (extra man in attack).
His defensive reading of the game helped a lot with counters. He was not your everyday ruthless DM.

But you would want a more ruthless CB pairing behind him to cover up for his mistakes.

Obviously with Ocwirk playing the role he is, it has to be a high line (if its not, it breaks the whole idea up), and Godin just doesn't fit there for me.
Ramos, I dont rate enough at all. Always has mistakes up his sleeve.

A more stronger defense behind Ocwirk capable of functioning both in the setup and being more ruthless would have earned more respect for Ocwirk IMO.

He is kind of like a Pirlo/Bozsik with better defensive capabilities but lesser play making abilities. But like Pirlo and Bozsik, you have to create the right environment around him.
Silva and Coluna fit the bill. Godin and Ramos don't. At least for me, they don't.

Great post and I agree with all of it to be honest. Instead of a Pirlo I'd see him as more along the lines of a better Xabi Alonso personally. It was more the first couple of pages rather than the later discussion that I saw some debate about Ocwirk, but must have missed the qualifier regards it being due to the personnel surrounding him, rather than Ocwirk himself.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

In general, I don't think similarities between Ronaldo and Mbappe prevent good chemistry in the counter-attacking setup GSTQ envisions. On the contrary, their pace, mobility and knack for movement should make a great combination. I can see Mbappe using space extensively, like drifting to the right on the break to create space/feed balls for Ronaldo and eventually Zico pushing up centrally. (Or Bonhof, who could make these runs too.)

Cheers, that is exactly how I envision it as well.

1. How good is that team playing around aggressive counterpressing (which I'd expect from Arbitrium's team)? If they manage to get behind the initial pressing to release the attackers, the result could be devastating. (Although tbf, Ramos on a good day is an excellent player for defending situations like that. Not so sure about Godin.) If the opponent can routinely prevent that, they could be choked.

The best way to deal with counter pressing IMO is to fill the team with people who are comfortable on the ball.
Now, in my lineup, the below players apart from the front 3 qualify -

1. Baresi
2. Ferrara (could play a sweeper too and did)
3. Kaltz (very good passer of the ball, especially long passes, played the sweeper role too)
4. Branco
5. Bonhof (played all over the pitch, from B2B to holding to wing back on both sides to even playing the sweeper role. Can hold and pass)
6. Tigana (B2B engine who could deliver the ball forward or pass it to the others around)

Between those 6, I think I have enough holding and passing around capability.
When 4 out of my 5 defenders are renowned for their abilities on the ball, your question becomes slightly easier to answer for me

2. Are there other expert long passers than Zico (and deeper than him) with the ability to immediately release the forwards into space after dodging the counterpressing? Baresi, Kaltz perhaps? That would be a massive threat in transition. (Thinking of Pogba -> Mbappe in the WC final before the 3-1, or Sneijder -> Robben against Spain 2014.)

I think I covered quite a bit in the last post, but to extend the idea behind the counters, here's how I envision the various paths

Strides/Bombs forward after winning the balls

1. Baresi
2. Tigana
3. Bonhof

Run down the wings with the eventual idea of pulling my forwards wide behind the opposition's attacking wing backs and stretch the opposition CB's

1. Branco
2. Kaltz
3. Bonhof (His WC final assist for Muller was from a similar run down the right wing from midfield)

Long passes from the back as soon I win the ball

1. Baresi
2. Ferrara
3. Kaltz
4. Bonhof (as I said, played sweeper too and had a very good passing range)

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Great post and I agree with all of it to be honest. Instead of a Pirlo I'd see him as more along the lines of a better Xabi Alonso personally. It was more the first couple of pages rather than the later discussion that I saw some debate about Ocwirk, but must have missed the qualifier regards it being due to the personnel surrounding him, rather than Ocwirk himself.

Yea, definitely closer to Xabi skill set wise but a completely different style of play.
Xabi, I'd prefer in a more direct attacking team while Ocwirk just wouldn't be fully utilized there.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Think I have responded to all the neutral comments. Will check back again if the discussion resumes in the last few hours.

 

[harms]

Godin is rated quite highly around here (I think he's good but not as good as others do) I've always made the argument he's never really tested himself outside a defensive setup, even had our Uruguayan drafter agree with this too.

Did Iniesta test himself outside possession system?

Iniesta directly influences the possession-based approach though, any team featuring him will have a lot of the ball, Godin doesn't influence uber-defensive approach.

 

[harms]

Silvas trophy cabinet is far more impressive. He'll be remembered as the better player in 20 years.

Jesus

Be sure to check out the post I made earlier about Ocwirk. Was former poster @idmanager very good assessment. If what he says about him is accurate, then he’s a dream in my set up.

There's some non-obvious irony in that.

 

[harms]

Btw, regarding Eusebio being an upgrade on Suarez. Suarez was the glue that made MSN click — he is the most selfless and dynamic player out of the three, despite his fantastic goalscoring rate. Eusebio definitely won't play the same role and if you're talking about chemistry, it's a step down, however you look at it. He obviously compensates for it by his sheer quality (like Silva vs Zico, there's no debate on who is a better player out of the two), and then there's the Coluna link as well.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Jus caught up again on the discussion, I keep swaying towards Arb but then can’t look past zico and Ronaldo and Mbappe against Arbs defence and goalkeeper.

My final vote looks likely to go to GSTQ. It was a really close call and I probably could have pondered over it for another few hours or days but always had that nagging feeling that GSTQ team would come out better.

Also, a good point made re the chemistry of players who played together I can go along with.

 

[Enigma_87]

I don't really rate Mbappe that high in all time sense yet. He needs to have couple of more years at least at the highest level to enter the discussion.

GSTQ has obvious advantage in Fenomeno vs Ramos - the former would rip him apart. However same goes on the other end. Messi will get plenty of joy between Ferri and Branco, especially with the help of Alves.

Really tough to separate, probably the one game I literally went back and forth with voting, but the overall chemistry in Arb's attack swung my vote and that Alves/Messi combo.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Same mate, I’ve gone back and for before voting with this one.

I’ve just put my vote in for Arb.

As much as I like Ronaldo upfront and agree he’s going to murder Ramos and Godin breaking on them I can’t just choose because of that.
I think arbs team will have sustained attack’s and messi and neymar, come on, they are going to terrorise.

Two great teams to choose from though.

 

[Himannv]

Excellent teams and it's hard to vote in these sort of games. I think Baresi is the difference maker for me though and in this setup he moves to wherever there's a potential problem and fixes it.

On the other hand, Ronaldo, Mbappe, and Zico look like they'd be quite a handful.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I don't really rate Mbappe that high in all time sense yet. He needs to have couple of more years at least at the highest level to enter the discussion.

GSTQ has obvious advantage in Fenomeno vs Ramos - the former would rip him apart. However same goes on the other end. Messi will get plenty of joy between Ferri and Branco, especially with the help of Alves.

Really tough to separate, probably the one game I literally went back and forth with voting, but the overall chemistry in Arb's attack swung my vote and that Alves/Messi combo.

Same mate, I’ve gone back and for before voting with this one.

I’ve just put my vote in for Arb.

As much as I like Ronaldo upfront and agree he’s going to murder Ramos and Godin breaking on them I can’t just choose because of that.
I think arbs team will have sustained attack’s and messi and neymar, come on, they are going to terrorise.

Two great teams to choose from though.

Excellent teams and it's hard to vote in these sort of games. I think Baresi is the difference maker for me though and in this setup he moves to wherever there's a potential problem and fixes it.

On the other hand, Ronaldo, Mbappe, and Zico look like they'd be quite a handful.

Cheers for the inputs lads. Always good when voters post why they chose a particular team.

 

[Synco]

Final questions:

@Arbitrium
Anything to add to GSTQ's statements on dodging counterpressing and initiating counters, or do you accept it like that?

@GodShaveTheQueen
What about Zico's contributions against the ball? Can he provide a minimum, like moving with the formation, limiting Ocwirk's passing options to the center, covering some central space when Tigana/Bonhof support the flanks, etc.?

If not: I reckon that packed center could still handle that, but it would certainly give them more trouble, and Arbitrium's team more space and freedom.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

@GodShaveTheQueen
What about Zico's contributions against the ball? Can he provide a minimum, like moving with the formation, limiting Ocwirk's passing options to the center, covering some central space when Tigana/Bonhof support the flanks, etc.?

To be fair, I don't expect too much defensive output out of Zico.
I'd be more than happy to let Ocwirk push himself and his team forward and be the extra man in attack. He will have to have a near perfect game to recover every broken move leading to a counter.

When defending, I'll have everyone except the front 3 packed and make it very difficult to penetrate, especially the Italian core which is adept at defending in such scenarios.

When they lose the ball, I'd want to hit an out of position or over committed Alba/Alves/Ocwirk against the 3 in front.

And with a less than impressive CB duo for the setup, it should make any over committing suicidal.

I think any team in general should be able to afford 3 men without many defensive duties.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I think any team in general should be able to afford 3 mean without many defensive duties.

thats even more suicidal then arbi statement how Silva is better then Zico.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

thats even more suicidal then arbi statement how Silva is better then Zico.

I don't know how to respond to that without any explanation from you

 

[Ecstatic]

@GodShaveTheQueen was building a team only an accountant could dream of until:

- I sold Baresi, and
- JimBeam sold Zico and Arbitrium Ronaldo in an unexpected way

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Final questions:

@Arbitrium
Anything to add to GSTQ's statements on dodging counterpressing and initiating counters, or do you accept it like that?

@GodShaveTheQueen
What about Zico's contributions against the ball? Can he provide a minimum, like moving with the formation, limiting Ocwirk's passing options to the center, covering some central space when Tigana/Bonhof support the flanks, etc.?

If not: I reckon that packed center could still handle that, but it would certainly give them more trouble, and Arbitrium's team more space and freedom.

I made a post with the two formation graphics highlighting the advantage I’ll have on the ball (which is even further highlighted now with GSTQ pretty much admitting that 3 of his players do not have to do anything defensively) and then illustrated what it might look like when im facing a counter attack. Given one of those players on the counter is mbappe, a player who hasn’t had a great game against a defence of this quality, I think that by default GSTQ ability to counter should be taken with a pinch of salt. It’s clear enough to see how my team functions, with GSTQ it’s not a set up that absolutely compliments what we know about the players. Take his full backs for example, they are such a non entity in this game. Both their crossing ability means nothing since GSTQ wants to put together quick counters, and they’ll be too far pinned back to offer anything. Even if they do cross, I’ll win every header with Godin and Ramos. There’s so much movement and fluidity from my front three, aided by attack minded full backs who will keep making the pitch wide and demanding the full backs be defensively honest, and I have a midfield that will keep the ball for fun.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Just to highlight the problem with drafts (or maybe, my drafting)

Proven chemistry matters to me. So my team could easily have had Luis Ronaldo up front instead if Eusebio and I’d be willing to bet that at least a few people would have voted differently because of it.

I changed to eusebio because there was no actual way to evidence Ronaldo working, just theory. Instead, I ended up with Coluna and Eusebio in the same team;

“While Eusebio was the explosive goal-scorer supreme for the Lisbon Eagles and Portugal, Coluna was the playmaker who commanded the game and created many of the openings“

So now I’ve added another element of guaranteed cohesion to the team, but ultimately it’s counted for nothing. That’s wrong in my eyes.

 

[Physiocrat]

Gone Arbitrium but's close.What decided it was that I don't see GSTQ's wing-backs being good enough defensively to help much against Arby's front three. They will have more of the ball and will I think score.