Can't see past Zico feeding Ronaldo and Mbappe.
So names defeating tactics and proven chemistry? What else is new in drafts?
Auction Draft: Round 1 - GSTQ vs. Arbitrium
- Thread starter Indnyc
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So names defeating tactics and proven chemistry? What else is new in drafts?
An interesting and relevant fact here about Messi and Italian defenses.
Lionel Messi has scored just two goals in his nine Champions League away games versus Italian sides, with both of them coming against Milan (November 2011 and October 2013).
Lionel Messi has scored just two goals in his nine Champions League away games versus Italian sides, with both of them coming against Milan (November 2011 and October 2013).
Some more info on Ferri would be good, it's also an issue of quality to be honest, Messi is probably a top 5 goat I don't think Ferri is in that company. Its the same way I feel about Ramos vs R9. Would be good to hear your plans vs his right side it's the one thing which is preventing me voting for you.
I am specifically talking about the combos and synergy. I see a lot more synergy and greater than the sum of the parts effect in Zico-R9-Mbappe than I do in your front three.
I don't really see Eusebio being an ideal no.9 for Messi and Neymar. Just not feeling your front 3 as a greater than the sum of the parts combination. That is compounded by his defense being better constructed IMO. You can certainly disagree but it has everything to do with synergy and combinations and which side I perceive as being more likely to score more often not "names"
disagree that arbitrium midfield is lightweight, Ocwirk is supposedly great defensive wise, Coluna was a beast and Silva is one of the best number 10s in history when it comes to defensive segment. Whole team is fantastic(ideally you would want a different type of striker or if it has to be Eusebio then a different type of left forward) until you get to defence, personally i dont rate Ramos and can easily see Fenomeno tearing him a new one and as "little" as i rate Ramos, Valdes i rate even less.
Saying that, his right side will just as well have the same situation as Fenomeno against Ramos. In the end i would probably opt for Arbi but that Baresi leading the line is probably going to make me not to vote.
Saying that, his right side will just as well have the same situation as Fenomeno against Ramos. In the end i would probably opt for Arbi but that Baresi leading the line is probably going to make me not to vote.
Messi Suárez Neymar is literally the most successful front 3 of all time in terms of single season output, and you think swapping Suárez for eusebio weakens that?
Well, Baresi/Ferri as a real world partnership took them to the world cup semis conceding just 1 goal till they got knocked out. I am not calling him Maldini/Krol, but I think he is really getting a rough deal here.
Coming to how it will work. There are really just 2 situations really.
1. Messi cuts in alone from the front - In that case, I have both Branco and Ferri behind him. Barcelona has struggled against narrow Italian style defenses. Messi scored twice in 9 games away to Italy
2. Messi and Alves double up : In this case, as mentioned in OP, the wing back takes the overlapper while the wide CB waits for the inverted forward. Messi at the end of the day has to run into the 3 man defense. There is never a case of Messi and Alves ganging up on one player.
The 3-5-2 is the best formation IMO against a 4-3-3 with inverted wingers.
The above explanation was for you as well Bepo.
Also wanted to hear about Fenomeno and Mbappe running behind the attacking fullbacks on counter and stretching the CB's leaving spaces all over for Zico to score. Surely Fenomeno/Ramos is not the only flaw there.
Would like to hear neutral views on Godin in this setup. Below is what I think and tactically, its a big weakness IMO. Him being the opposition's best defender just makes it even worse.
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I already said I rate the combination of Mbappe-Ronaldo-Zico as more likely to score against your defense than I see your front three scoring against his. You built a strong side, its not like I thinks its awful but its just not good enough against what I see as one of the best 3 balanced sides of the first round.
There is good reason for that. Eusebio was more of a second striker rather than a pure number 9.
Also, in the MSN, Messi didn't really feature as someone cutting in most of the time from the wing even with Suarez playing quite centrally.
Messi's primary position still remained central.
Edit: I didnt bring this is up because I rate Eusebio quite highly. I think he is functional here for sure, but not ideal.
Its not the only flaw but its the biggest one, just like arbi does have other routes to goal other then through Messi down the right wing.
IMO its weaker with Eusebio even though he is comfortably better player then Suarez.
Well at least there’s a precedent being set for just turned 20 year olds having an impact on drafts. I guess he is a special talent so I don’t have an issue with it.
@GodShaveTheQueen no need to go on about the defence, I conceded the point in my OP.
My whole sell here is the proven chemistry and little amount of imagination it takes to see my team being effective. You win the defensive battle, I think it’s even for our midfields and I think my front line is far more likely to work.
Your goalkeeper also won the square root of feck all. His pedigree in the game stems from a 3rd place finish in 1994. Nothing else.
To the folks questioning Ferri here:
Here's his record with Baresi for Italy -
They played 42 games together and conceded just 19 goals. How is that for a stat?
@2mufc0 @Šjor Bepo
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fra...ium=2&wettbewerb=&liga=&verein=&pos=&status=0
Here's his record with Baresi for Italy -
They played 42 games together and conceded just 19 goals. How is that for a stat?
@2mufc0 @Šjor Bepo
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fra...ium=2&wettbewerb=&liga=&verein=&pos=&status=0
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Eusebio, with more goals than games during his spell at Benfica, is used as a striker mostly here, occasionally dropping in to effect play from deep. The interchange between the front 3 is fairly obviouw and will test even Baresi to the limits.
Its not about which defense is good. Its about how bad the holes are in each.
Godin is someone that doesn't fit your team's philosophy at all. Feel free to dispute that.
Godin is rated quite highly around here (I think he's good but not as good as others do) I've always made the argument he's never really tested himself outside a defensive setup, even had our Uruguayan drafter agree with this too.
Did Iniesta test himself outside possession system?
Compared to Pep's Barca they were not, compared to every other team they were. They always want/ed to dominate possession and even in MSN era they did it most of the times but they warent always successful as midfield wasnt good enough to dominate at highest level, for that one season trio up front "bailed" them out but every season after you can see a clear pattern. Messi dominates the league while in CL where he needs help against top teams they do feck all, same will happen this season even though this time they have different issues.
Personally i dont see an issue with Godin playing in Enrique or Valverde Barca and this looks a bit like that.
The difference was still humongous. I would call it closer to Pep's City than Barca.
Which is fair enough. Opposite opinions are better than no opinions
Lovely team from both. Amazing attacking units.
Maybe a controvorsial opinion, but I like Baresi more in a back 4 than a 5. Good defence from GSTQ nevertheless. Zico/Ronaldo/Mbappe in a couterattack would be lethal.
Arbitrium's attack resonates with me more. He should probably swap Eusebio and Messi. His midfield as a unit is also perfect. Byt unfortuantely, don't rate his defence at all. Very underwhelming and not one that can keep his opponent out.
Great team of Arby's but I think GSTQ takes this game.
Maybe a controvorsial opinion, but I like Baresi more in a back 4 than a 5. Good defence from GSTQ nevertheless. Zico/Ronaldo/Mbappe in a couterattack would be lethal.
Arbitrium's attack resonates with me more. He should probably swap Eusebio and Messi. His midfield as a unit is also perfect. Byt unfortuantely, don't rate his defence at all. Very underwhelming and not one that can keep his opponent out.
Great team of Arby's but I think GSTQ takes this game.
He was also in the team of the tournament for a World Cup winning side being remembered for scoring 4 goals instead of being remembered for this
I said in the summer that Neymar's woeful antics at WC18 were going to cost him in draft ratings for me
Agree
Will read the whole discussion tommorow
How do we rate David Silva compared to Zico? I’d argue Silva has been more successful internationally and at club level but it doesn’t need to be an argument, he has been. For me he’s one of those players that is highly thought of, but still underrated. He can pull the strings against any opposition and whilst he’s not a conventional number 10 here (he doesn’t have to be) he offers more as a total midfielder than Zico ever could.
@Arbitrium Genius video
Suicidal post.
Silvas trophy cabinet is far more impressive. He'll be remembered as the better player in 20 years.
I was glad when he got nominated and feel like he is one of the modern players who should feature much more in drafts. He was part of a brilliant Spanish generation and his legacy gets overshadowed by some Barca players, but his performances in the PL alone are simply sensational, both if we are talking peak and longevity.
Obviously he's not as good as Zico, but he's the right fit for your formation. You need someone like him, a selfless and highly mobile AM to connect several GOAT attackers and he also gives you additional creativity to have Messi go unnoticed in some moments.
Your team looks like a team with a clear vision and one of the few formations where I can see Messi and another GOAT attacker working well together. There are some parts of it where I feel the composition is not 100% on spot (Alba and Neymar are both good with Messi but Alba-Neymar is not a very complimentary flank - still it's not a bad one either). The general idea of combining Messi's Barca with Eusebio-Coluna is beautiful and some of your choices are bang on the money. At first I had issues with Ocwirk as the deepest DM, but now I think he's fantastic there for a possession side which clearly wants to score loads of goals. Ramos is also a nice fit, I personally think he's much better than Pique but I'm also someone who rates him higher than most.
GSTQ's side looks like a side with a which was build to win draft matches
One player I don't understand here is Mbappe. He offers nothing that Ronaldo doesn't, in a way he missed the chance to have more variety in your attack. Someone more creative, with more physicality or more heading ability could have added much more to the side. Especially with Kaltz as RWB, you want someone to win headers in the middle and a partnership of Ronaldo-Vieri for example is easily above Ronaldo-Mbappe for me. Mbappe also scored 0 in 1 against Godin and 0 in 3 against Ramos, which is not a huge sample size, but the sample size is also small because of Mbappe's young age.Zico and Ronaldo are poised to have some great chances here, same as Arbitrium with Messi/Alves combination on the right. It's too close to call.
I was glad when he got nominated and feel like he is one of the modern players who should feature much more in drafts. He was part of a brilliant Spanish generation and his legacy gets overshadowed by some Barca players, but his performances in the PL alone are simply sensational, both if we are talking peak and longevity.
Obviously he's not as good as Zico, but he's the right fit for your formation. You need someone like him, a selfless and highly mobile AM to connect several GOAT attackers and he also gives you additional creativity to have Messi go unnoticed in some moments.
Your team looks like a team with a clear vision and one of the few formations where I can see Messi and another GOAT attacker working well together. There are some parts of it where I feel the composition is not 100% on spot (Alba and Neymar are both good with Messi but Alba-Neymar is not a very complimentary flank - still it's not a bad one either). The general idea of combining Messi's Barca with Eusebio-Coluna is beautiful and some of your choices are bang on the money. At first I had issues with Ocwirk as the deepest DM, but now I think he's fantastic there for a possession side which clearly wants to score loads of goals. Ramos is also a nice fit, I personally think he's much better than Pique but I'm also someone who rates him higher than most.
GSTQ's side looks like a side with a which was build to win draft matches
Zico and Ronaldo are poised to have some great chances here, same as Arbitrium with Messi/Alves combination on the right. It's too close to call.
nice and honest assessment of proceedings. Thanks for the input its appreciated.
great match up and debate. Match of the round so far.
Loved the video, and the jet ski picture.
Laughed when I seen each teams attacks. And enjoyed the instant debate.
My instant thought was gstq team, the speed of Ronaldo and Mbappe with zico behind them and the Baresi led defence caught the eye.
The discussion leaned me towards Arb a little, I don’t know enough of those 2 defenders either side of baresi other than what’s been posted in this thread, to know how they would truly cope with messi and neymar running either side at them. I’ll look those up those now.
Same for Ocwirk I don’t know about him to know how he’d deal with running back chasing the front 3. I’ll look into him now before voting.
I could see the game going with Arb having the position and playing high up the field with his wingbacks with neymar and messi probing against a solid looking back 5 of GSTQ, If they break with zico feeding Mbappe and Ronald running towards a retreating Ramos and Godin I can see goals there on the counter.
Hard too choose at the moment, still leaning towards GSTQ at the moment.
One last thing regarding the chemistry element in these drafts, I find that hard to agree with. There’s decades of world class players too choose from and to try and match playing styles and out tactic.
You can’t be punished for not having chemistry because your front two played 4 decades apart. Unless we go down the fifa route and have orange lines between players because they were both french.
Loved the video, and the jet ski picture.
Laughed when I seen each teams attacks. And enjoyed the instant debate.
My instant thought was gstq team, the speed of Ronaldo and Mbappe with zico behind them and the Baresi led defence caught the eye.
The discussion leaned me towards Arb a little, I don’t know enough of those 2 defenders either side of baresi other than what’s been posted in this thread, to know how they would truly cope with messi and neymar running either side at them. I’ll look those up those now.
Same for Ocwirk I don’t know about him to know how he’d deal with running back chasing the front 3. I’ll look into him now before voting.
I could see the game going with Arb having the position and playing high up the field with his wingbacks with neymar and messi probing against a solid looking back 5 of GSTQ, If they break with zico feeding Mbappe and Ronald running towards a retreating Ramos and Godin I can see goals there on the counter.
Hard too choose at the moment, still leaning towards GSTQ at the moment.
One last thing regarding the chemistry element in these drafts, I find that hard to agree with. There’s decades of world class players too choose from and to try and match playing styles and out tactic.
You can’t be punished for not having chemistry because your front two played 4 decades apart. Unless we go down the fifa route and have orange lines between players because they were both french.
Be sure to check out the post I made earlier about Ocwirk. Was former poster @idmanager very good assessment. If what he says about him is accurate, then he’s a dream in my set up.
Really good write up on Ocwirk, makes him sound outstanding player and a great fit for where you’re playing him
Christ, Arby. You really should stop sabotaging yourself with these posts.
It's not a Silva vs Zico match. You should be bigging up Ocwirk vs Zico, not Silva. I think Ocwirk is a very good match and it'll be close either way.
Really rate Silva, but the moment of magic that Zico can provide is something else.
Zico wasn't a total midfielder, he was a total no10, something Silva never was despite playing there most of his career. It can't even be a debate, just a completely different class of player.
By you and who? Watch one single Zico match and you'll understand how stupid this post is.
Here we have a representation of what it will look like if my side (as expected) dominates possession. I think more or less, this is a fair visual of what kind of position GSTQ would look like without the ball i.e. zico not doing too much defensively, and ronaldo and mbappe waiting for the outball.
Now the offensive threat of my fullbacks, the combined intelligence, ball retention and skill of Silva and Coluna, then the obvious interchange between the front three means that at no point will GSTQ have a numerical advantage over me when defending. It simply cant happen. When you have three players on your team like GSTQ has who will offer next to nothing defensively, against a team as good at mine as keeping the ball and moving off of it, its suicide.
Triangles. Everywhere. The most effective tactic in the world to run an opposition team into the ground, frustrate them, and carve out space for the danger players which in this case, theres arguably six of them who can all produce a moment of brilliance. GSTQ mentioned earlier that he doesn't think i would win the midfield battle, I don't care what he says thats the biggest BS claim from either of us this game. Ocwirk, Silva and Coluna simply have too many options to play off of, or amongst each other to frustrate what is ultimately a second/third tier central midfield two. If my full backs are occupying his, my front three pretty much demand that his defensive three have the game of their lives (and even then my attack is still probably too much). We are talking about probably the best player the game has ever seen, with two attacking partners he'll benefit from, the man Messi will choose himself for the RB slot 50 years from no when he talks about the greatest players he played with/against, and a midfield that can dictate the play in a variety of ways i.e. ball retention, quick interchange, powerful surges and pinpoint precision passing.
And now the dreaded counter-attack from GSTQ, which would be his likely route to victory given the clear advantage i have possession wise. Is this really as scary as it seems? Godin is smart enough to force Mbappe wide where jordi Albas pace is enough to slow Mbappe up even slightly. The same is true for Ramos and Alves dealing with Ronaldo. Both my full backs have incredible engines and can meet the demands placed on them defensively no problem. Naturally, thanks to his intelligence, Ocwirk doesn't stray too far from Zico and although he's no ball winning expert he can definitely impact Zico's effectiveness, and by that time I have Silva and Coluna on their way back. Every single one of my defenders and midfielders is great at winning the ball back/intercepting, And most of them are fine distributors. So all of a sudden i've won the ball back, look further up the field in this graphic. 3 on 3, but GSTQ has slower full backs (and the weakest defensively in Branco). How often do people fancy that a front 3 of Neymar, Eusebio and Messi can get joy out of Ferrara, Baresi and Ferri. Franco has almost the same amount of caps as those two combined for a reason, and thats because they weren't ever close to being the defender he was.
Tactically, the way this game plays out, it favours my set up.
Only if all footage and descriptive record of Zico is mysteriously wiped out and everyone who has watched his genius has collective amnesia.
Yeah, undoubtedly. There's a momentum lag with players still active getting fully accepted as credible.
Just before i made the post about Zico and Silva, I sent GSTQ a message saying "watch this"
Of course I rate zico higher FFS