Arthur Melo - Juventus's old number five

Flanders Devil said:
Agree totally with your thinking around options. And it makes so much more sense in a hyper inflated market where it seems the assets rise significantly from window to window. You essentially de-risk your transfer during the most risky stage - I’m assuming it’s used primarily for up coming talent - whilst not stunting their development by sticking them in the reserves etc.

I get a sense Real and Barca do actually use it quite well/frequently, like I think Vinicius was ‘optioned’ for real iirc (could be wrong). But we and other English clubs don’t seem to use this nearly as much as it would seem logical.
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antohan said:
The problem with all those things is you need to have the first clue what you are after. Not having a dig at Mourinho here. Moyes, LvG, Mourinho... imagine LvG being told "hey, we have these three players we placed options on under Moyes!". Waste of money. Likely the same with Mourinho inheriting LvG punts, and whoever eventually comes next (surely will be some sort of attack, attack, attack manager) with Mourinho punts.

If you keep hiring disparate managers with disparate styles this is what you get. I can spot a Barca player a mile away, don't need to be a scout for that.
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Agree with both your points.

@antohan it's definitely a risk, especially where those no coherent style and/or a DoF or a "succession plan". But in general, I still think if a talent is regarded as good enough, it might be worth the risk, because at the very least, you can pull out of the option or still proceed and try and sell the player to recoup a lot of your money.

But yeah, it makes it infinitely easier, as you mentioned, to identify a Barca player, than it is to identify a United player. Then again, I think we're also using the 2 extremes in terms of "identity" at this point in time. (us having lost our identity a bit since SAF left).
 
the_irish123 said:
The depressing part is that if we followed FM rather than our scouting system, we would've had 300% more success in past 5 years or so.
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It's not that depressing if you look at FM as a huge scouting network that happens to do his work for a game that's one of the most sold year after year. They can't take away the "realism" of their database, especially for players that have been engaged through the years and look up to their reliable scouts as one of the pros of playing it.

It's probably easier for them since they aren't bound by club doctrines or price range, they can assess player's quality in absolute terms, not in "how would this guy adapt to Utd philosophy and climate". In the Arthur case, it hasn't totally worked for us so far, but he looks like a good deal, but in other areas, especially signing wonderkids from the iberian peninsula or the American/Japanese/Korean imports, none of them have worked out, and those were "FM signings" in essence.
 
Ishdalar said:
It's not that depressing if you look at FM as a huge scouting network that happens to do his work for a game that's one of the most sold year after year. They can't take away the "realism" of their database, especially for players that have been engaged through the years and look up to their reliable scouts as one of the pros of playing it.

It's probably easier for them since they aren't bound by club doctrines or price range, they can assess player's quality in absolute terms, not in "how would this guy adapt to Utd philosophy and climate". In the Arthur case, it hasn't totally worked for us so far, but he looks like a good deal, but in other areas, especially signing wonderkids from the iberian peninsula or the American/Japanese/Korean imports, none of them have worked out, and those were "FM signings" in essence.
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Yeah, FM scouting is very good and some of the best players were very highly rated by them when they were very young.

For other leagues, the bold part is correct but not for England. All the team researchers are club fans, so there is lot of bias in how they rate the players. Not the thread for it. Anyways overall yeah, FM database is very good to rate players, I mean the unknown ones as they are rated by people who watch them week in week out.
 
I really don't get the Iniesta comparisons when this guy is a carbon copy of Xavi in his movements and mannerisms. My favourite signing this summer and super happy about his performance yesterday, we need a metronome alongside Busquets after Iniesta left and he fills the void nicely.
 
He can play the Iniesta-role, the Xavi-role and the Busquets-role. He hasn't played more expansive yet.. He could try some more through-balls, switch possession with a cross or join in attack little more. I think that's down to Valverde's tactics/instructions though. He's there to keep possession and he does it so well.
 
I agree with some, more Xavi than Iniesta. I haven't seen him play great passes but on the ball he's ridiculously good. Taking it off him is the sort of task no one fancies.
 
Ish said:
@Invictus thanks bud.

I've actually been thinking about the "option", a financial instrument, to acquire someones services in football for a while. I don't think it's used often or well enough by clubs, especially the big clubs, where young developing talent is concerned.
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Sellers don't like or want options because they prevent them from getting the most out of the market, keep in mind that for the clubs that aren't at the top of the food chain transfer fees are a livelihood, they are not a bonus and it's not something that they get with regularity. So unless the options lead to an anticipated over payment, the seller will most likely play the market.
 
He was just so good. Kept the ball so well and dictated the game.
 
RooneyLegend said:
I agree with some, more Xavi than Iniesta. I haven't seen him play great passes but on the ball he's ridiculously good. Taking it off him is the sort of task no one fancies.
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That sounds more like Iniesta than Xavi to be fair.
 
antohan said:
That sounds more like Iniesta than Xavi to be fair.
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Iniesta was more dynamic than he'll ever be. He doesn't really take men on or even move with the ball in an Iniesta way. He's a pure ball manipulator like Xavi with fancier footwork where as Xavi used his body alot more. His passing looks far from both their standards. Don't know if it's cause he still doesn't want to make mistakes or if he actually can't. He's to Pirlo what Verratti is to Xavi. Similar player with
better footwork but an inferior passing game.
 
RooneyLegend said:
Iniesta was more dynamic than he'll ever be. He doesn't really take men on or even move with the ball in an Iniesta way. He's a pure ball manipulator like Xavi with fancier footwork where as Xavi used his body alot more. His passing looks far from both their standards. Don't know if it's cause he still doesn't want to make mistakes or if he actually can't. He's to Pirlo what Verratti is to Xavi. Similar player with
better footwork but an inferior passing game.
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Hes constantly taking on men who pressure him, running around them. So strangely he kind of plays a bit like Iniesta, but in the Xavi role. He's not offensively as good as them, but he's better defensively, as in Gremio he was getting dirty with tackles, getting in his own box to help defenders etc.
 
JPRouve said:
Sellers don't like or want options because they prevent them from getting the most out of the market, keep in mind that for the clubs that aren't at the top of the food chain transfer fees are a livelihood, they are not a bonus and it's not something that they get with regularity. So unless the options lead to an anticipated over payment, the seller will most likely play the market.
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Yeah 100%. It would probably be in very limited situations that these options would exist.
 
Hoddle kept going on about the new Xavi last night, mentioned it several times during the game
 
Ish said:
Yeah 100%. It would probably be in very limited situations that these options would exist.
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It's definitely not limited in South America. Club finances are always a mess but teams want to hold on to their stars long enough to enjoy them while also realising their value.

If instead of a sale under financial pressure you get oxygen linked to a fee you would be very happy to receive it's great business. As opposed to Nacional of Uruguay selling the full rights of 5 players including young starlet Recoba for the 600K (pounds) they needed to be allowed to start the new season back in 1997.
 
antohan said:
It's definitely not limited in South America. Club finances are always a mess but teams want to hold on to their stars long enough to enjoy them while also realising their value.

If instead of a sale under financial pressure you get oxygen linked to a fee you would be very happy to receive it's great business. As opposed to Nacional of Uruguay selling the full rights of 5 players including young starlet Recoba for the 600K (pounds) they needed to be allowed to start the new season back in 1997.
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I’d assume there’d be a hint of exploitation of European clubs over South American clubs especially, considering the gap in finances.

But Brazilian clubs have done well recently I think, selling to some of the European elite. Though I’m not sure how much a club like Shakhtar is paying to get some of their Brazilian talents over.
 
Ish said:
I’d assume there’d be a hint of exploitation of European clubs over South American clubs especially, considering the gap in finances.

But Brazilian clubs have done well recently I think, selling to some of the European elite. Though I’m not sure how much a club like Shakhtar is paying to get some of their Brazilian talents over.
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Far more than the going rate in Brazil, particularly to the player. It's typically more under the radar players though.

How many big moves can you list in the last couple of years? Now think how many broke clubs Brazil has and the rate at which they churn out players desperate to start setting themselves up for life...

The agents/right owners make a killing as intermediaries flogging them left, right and centre. Then a few of those wind up turning good and making the big club move, while thousands you never hear about.
 
antohan said:
Far more than the going rate in Brazil, particularly to the player. It's typically more under the radar players though.

How many big moves can you list in the last couple of years? Now think how many broke clubs Brazil has and the rate at which they churn out players desperate to start setting themselves up for life...

The agents/right owners make a killing as intermediaries flogging them left, right and centre. Then a few of those wind up turning good and making the big club move, while thousands you never hear about.
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Yeah absolutely anto. Thanks for the insight.
 
I remember watching him last season for Gremio while playing the Libertadores cup, and though this guy is totally made for Barcelona.
 
I'm following him for three years and i think he has the potential of a wc player. Only negative imo is that he seems to be always obsessed with the risk of losing the ball, and because of that he is not very brave going up front, considering that he is very good at shooting or passing close to the box. But you dont see him in those positions very often.

Need to maturate and grow in personal confidence to be a regular starter for a club like Barcelona.
 
Charles Miller said:
I'm following him for three years and i think he has the potential of a wc player. Only negative imo is that he seems to be always obsessed with the risk of losing the ball, and because of that he is not very brave going up front, considering that he is very good at shooting or passing close to the box. But you dont see him in those positions very often.

Need to maturate and grow in personal confidence to be a regular starter for a club like Barcelona.
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Worth pointing out that the guy's 22 years old. CMs usually need more time to grow into their role. Iniesta, Xavi, Kroos, Modric, Thiago, Verratti, Schweinsteiger and so forth all only became world class aged around 24/25. Most of them had to play in different positions because they either lost too many balls, didn't have the composure, didn't understand the game well enough or simply lacked the necessary fitness for running 11-13 km in 90 minutes.

I think Arthur is extremely mature for a player of his age. He's exactly what Barcelona needs right now. As long as you have attackers like Messi, Suarez, Coutinho, Malcom and Dembele, they'll create enough chances but Arthur with his pressing resistance and the ability to do the easy things extremely well revives their possession game. Especially Messi profits if he doesn't have to drop deep that often in order to build up attacks anymore. So I guess they are quite happy that Arthur focuses on retaining the ball with his great close control and quick and easy passes instead of risky approaches.
 
God knows what are scouts are doing. These unknown players are the players we should be buying. Clubs like Barcelona, Juventus, Bayern pick all the top talented players and we just buy overpriced and overrated players.
 
kouroux said:
I see the whole thing as when you are searching for players in FIFA or PES. Our main parameters are height and physical strength.
Other clubs have others
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Back in the 90’s this was the way to go, someone needs to let Jose know it’s 2018 and he’s messing up the job he always wanted.
 
His style looked like Ineista I thought. Body movement and everything.
 
It's been a while since we had a DM/CM who wasn't Iniesta and Xavi and Busi who can handle being pressed with the ball and is mobile. We had Thiago but as you can see we sold him.

Roberto despite coming through La Masia as a CM, isn't really that great in that role. Lacks quite a bit compared to the likes of Thiago and a number of the current CM options we have coming through the B team as well. He was pushed to DM and RB where he started to perform much better.

We relied a lot on Rakitic, but he has a number of limitations. He's not really agile, not great in tight spaces and is pretty bad if he gets pressed. And I won't even get into players such as Denis, Rafinha, Gomes etc.

Arthur is the first CM in a while that we have that I can say "WOW" a much-needed one in terms of skill set. Before the Spurs game, Valverde was trying the Coutinho-Busi-Rakitic Midfield but all we got out of it was slow and uninspiring football and we relied a lot on some individual brilliance from Coutinho, Messi and even Dembele and Alba as well.

The Problem I have with the Coutinho-Busi-Rakitic is on paper it may look balanced but in reality, it really isn't. Valverde was trying to use Rakitic in some weird pseudo controller/Defensive RCM role to help put Busi trying to control the tempo and flow of passing. But Rakitic's limitations start to show if he's doing that as I said above. He doesn't possess the skillset to even do that.

Busi is getting old himself but it's a telling sign that he can play well with Spain as they have Thiago there to help him control the tempo, while at Barcelona he been struggling with Rakitic trying to play a role that he's not comfortable or suited for.

Busi finally has someone that wasn't an aging Iniesta to help him out massively in controlling the game and help handle the press.
 
antohan said:
Far more than the going rate in Brazil, particularly to the player. It's typically more under the radar players though.

How many big moves can you list in the last couple of years? Now think how many broke clubs Brazil has and the rate at which they churn out players desperate to start setting themselves up for life...

The agents/right owners make a killing as intermediaries flogging them left, right and centre. Then a few of those wind up turning good and making the big club move, while thousands you never hear about.
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Hi @antohan and @Ish
 
Flanders Devil said:
Hi @antohan and @Ish
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@antohan @Ish (host post too early) just chiming in here...I think it’s a really good point regarding cash flow or the ‘oxygen’ that an option can provide to the less wealthy club. To them 5m now and 20m later could well be worth more than 30m later if that makes sense.

Also I notice you mentioned Shakhter earlier - I was thinking about them almost as a gateway club for Brazilians into Europe - are you guys aware if they have laxer Non-EU rules that make them an easier option for those talented Brazilians that haven’t quite made the qualifying criteria for say England, etc.?
 
It's infuriating how a great team like Barca with equal resources as us, go and get an absolute gem from Brazil for 30m, while we go and splash 50m for Fred.
 
Flanders Devil said:
@antohan @Ish (host post too early) just chiming in here...I think it’s a really good point regarding cash flow or the ‘oxygen’ that an option can provide to the less wealthy club. To them 5m now and 20m later could well be worth more than 30m later if that makes sense.

Also I notice you mentioned Shakhter earlier - I was thinking about them almost as a gateway club for Brazilians into Europe - are you guys aware if they have laxer Non-EU rules that make them an easier option for those talented Brazilians that haven’t quite made the qualifying criteria for say England, etc.?
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Hi Flanders

A few on here, especially from the EU, would probably be way more clued up on the topic but from what I've read, England's definitely got stricter work permit requirements than the Ukraine and some other European countries, and hence Shakhtar and clubs like Porto etc. are usually the gateway clubs for a lot of talented South Americans to get to Europe.

I think buying options on talented players might become more common - especially between poorer clubs and the wealthier ones, but I also think that for reason antohan mentioned, it will probably never really gain a massive amount of traction.
 
antohan said:
It's definitely not limited in South America. Club finances are always a mess but teams want to hold on to their stars long enough to enjoy them while also realising their value.

If instead of a sale under financial pressure you get oxygen linked to a fee you would be very happy to receive it's great business. As opposed to Nacional of Uruguay selling the full rights of 5 players including young starlet Recoba for the 600K (pounds) they needed to be allowed to start the new season back in 1997.
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How would Nacional look if they never sold any of their youth in, say, past 5 years?
 
Kostov said:
It's infuriating how a great team like Barca with equal resources as us, go and get an absolute gem from Brazil for 30m, while we go and splash 50m for Fred.
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I like Fred, but you don’t even need to do that much research to spend it on Arthur. Arthur shined in Brazil, Fred was almost demoted to amateur football. He was cut by Atletico Mineiro, went to Inter B team and was almost on his way out, but because of injuries a coach gave him a chance and he did a good job. But he never really shined there before going to Shakhtar, and was never a famous prospect or anything.
 
the_irish123 said:
How would Nacional look if they never sold any of their youth in, say, past 5 years?
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Nothing much. They are no longer producing players like Recoba or Suárez. The best they managed in the last 5 years was Pereiro, currently at PSV. They got ~5M for him.
 
Those turns in midfield. :drool:



Midfielders like this indirectly create chances. He makes 4 players press him, then dribbles and slips the ball through, which results in us outnumbering our opponents going forward.
 
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I wonder if our scouts identify and create reports on players like him.
 
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