Any manager should be looking to replace De Gea and Ronaldo. This isn’t a Ten Hag thing.
Especially De Gea. He’s shite.
Especially De Gea. He’s shite.
Are we willing to accept that "good" players who don't fit the manager's style of play need to be dropped?
- Thread starter sullydnl
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You’re embarassing yourself
Shite. A fanny. A problem. A massive problem for a number of years. We can get hung up about my flowery language and get into a game of ‘well, he isn’t actually shite, is he?’, or we can do the sensible thing and agree that the sooner he’s out the door the better this football team will be.
I agree with you. Ronaldo is not going to be a problem. They have zonal pressing and each player don't have to run a lot. The problem with United has been that apart from the Palace game we never made the pitch small so there is too much space to cover. And everyone has to be on the same wavelength.
As for DeGea there are more than enough players who needs to be moved on before him.
It's going to be interesting to see what he does with Maguire.
He's a great shot stopper. He just can't do the sweeper keeper thing that's going to be needed. But then he never said he could
The DeGea hate in here is weird given he’s easily been the best player this season till Fred’s emergence. Also seems weird that he was brought to United because he was semi decent with his feet. Genuinely think way too much is made out of this myself, maybe he’d get more involved and play passes through the middle of there was actually any movement there.
Anyway if any players are in danger then surely top of the list are Rashford, Bruno and Pogba no? Joined by Ronaldo. Probably plenty more To add to that but the only mildly safe players I would think are Fred, Varane, Lindelof, Shaw and Sancho.
Whatever happens I hope new players brought in will be young up and coming and hungry players and not the likes of your Kane and so on.
Anyway if any players are in danger then surely top of the list are Rashford, Bruno and Pogba no? Joined by Ronaldo. Probably plenty more To add to that but the only mildly safe players I would think are Fred, Varane, Lindelof, Shaw and Sancho.
Whatever happens I hope new players brought in will be young up and coming and hungry players and not the likes of your Kane and so on.
De Gea is consistently the best player at the club when it’s on fire and we’re conceding goals for fun. He makes a shit ton of saves - as he’s good at that - and survives on the narrative that United would be in 14th without De Gea. Then we go through a better spell and his issues are more obvious when they’re happening in the midst of a decent run.
If and when this wizard from Ajax we’re rumoured to be employing manages to get these idiots into shape, then De Gea’s issues will rear their ugly heads again.
I doubt that as he seemed fine when the midfield was Carrick and the likes.
He was more than fine years ago. Now he isn’t, and the next fella needs to show him the door.
it's a bit of football hipster hate against De Gea if you ask me. With a goalkeeper like him you gotta be a bit pragmatic - he's probably been the best goalkeeper in PL this season yet if some people on here are to be believed we should try our luck with other keepers which could easily result in a terrible Claudio Bravo at City situation, where you have a mediocre goalie but good with his feet.
I'd rather De Gea saved about 10 points like he's done this season than a Bravo type.
Wonder what the common denominator is there then
maybe get decent defenders and midfielders or in general outfield players and get them to actually move and offer options instead of making it seem like they are playing Red light green light.Our teams issue is generally been the same thing for years and it’s a lack of intensity and willingness to work. It’s also very uncoordinated. They are either stupid and can’t learn or just a bunch of lazy bums.
I’m not adverse to losing DeGea or generally 90% of the current team but I just don’t think apart from his wages DeGea is as big a problem as people make out. There is so much worse wrong with our team than DeGea.
Hmm so the guy on top is a 37-year-old veteran who cannot constantly provide high work rate any more, requiring the pitch to be small to reduce the space, which needs the defensive line to be high so that the whole team can allow as few gaps as possible, meaning the goalkeeper has to be active in terms of coming out of the box to sweep whenever there are threats of opponents running in behind the defense, attributes the current goalkeeper is not particularly known for. A bit of a dilemma isn't it? Not trying to provoke any clashes here, I am just really curious how this tactical conundrum is to be dealt with.
good managers improve players. But the players have to have the desire to learn and the willingness to improve also.
De Gea for example, has always been a great stopper. But over the years, despite the managers and GK coaches, he has not improved in the other aspects
If the plan is to play an aggressive pressing and possession style under ETH then having a goalkeeper that can't sweep and is shite at passing is a pretty big deal, it hinders the whole system. De Gea is going to have to be replaced for ETH to properly implement his style, simple as that.
Fair points, and yes it was a massive mistake to stick with Ole for as long as we did. Some players may never get their form and confidence back.
100%, but I think there will be plenty of fans that won't. Ronaldo is obviously the biggest player in our squad. If he gets benched, there are going to be plenty of people complaining about it. There will also highly likely be stories about how he's unhappy with his role in the team. Ronaldo might want to leave in the summer, and it'll fix that problem.
De Gea on a lesser scale. Many of our fans think he has been brilliant this season, and the last player that should be replaced. I would be happy to see a more well rounded keeper playing for us, but I can't see that happening this summer. We have other areas that are going to get fixed first. The midfield and attack are going to take priority. We will deal with De Gea for another season, and then hopefully bring in a new keeper in summer 23.
I really can't see how we will play the football he wants with them in the team. We can't even play the football Ralf wants. Dealing with them is going to be tough. Especially Ronaldo. He is bigger than every manager that isn't Pep and maybe Klopp. I just can't see how we can replace so many players at once. There is no chance we're going to spend £200m+ in one window.
De Gea on a lesser scale. Many of our fans think he has been brilliant this season, and the last player that should be replaced. I would be happy to see a more well rounded keeper playing for us, but I can't see that happening this summer. We have other areas that are going to get fixed first. The midfield and attack are going to take priority. We will deal with De Gea for another season, and then hopefully bring in a new keeper in summer 23.
I really can't see how we will play the football he wants with them in the team. We can't even play the football Ralf wants. Dealing with them is going to be tough. Especially Ronaldo. He is bigger than every manager that isn't Pep and maybe Klopp. I just can't see how we can replace so many players at once. There is no chance we're going to spend £200m+ in one window.
I understand the significance of the premise, but let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. We have "good" players who don't want to be here any longer and we have poor players who shit their pants at how lucky they are to be wearing the shirt. We have great players who are on the downward slope of their career and we have potentially great players who have yet to prove themselves at the top level. And then we have Anthony Martial and Marcus Rashford, who could be all-worlders and should be playing at an all-world level but for whatever reason have checked out of all things Manchester United.
We can't overhaul the squad all at once, but everyone knows that by the time ten Hag goes through his third transfer window that the squad will be completely overhauled. Who besides De Gea really stands any realistic chance of being a United regular starter at the beginning of 23/24?
We can't overhaul the squad all at once, but everyone knows that by the time ten Hag goes through his third transfer window that the squad will be completely overhauled. Who besides De Gea really stands any realistic chance of being a United regular starter at the beginning of 23/24?
I call BS. De Gea is not great with his feet, but he's not that terrible to not do some sort of job compared to the output we get with his many point-winning saves.
Claudio Bravo at City is what you're asking for, if we can't find a super human keeper ar De Gea's level who can also play out really well. Claudio Bravo cost them many points because Pep insisted that playing it out was more important than important saves.
Of course a flip side to people needing to accept that some players they rate might be sidelined is accepting that some players they don't rate or don't think will fit may do surprisingly well.
Thinking back to LVG's time, the assumption might have been that he would favour the CBs who were best in possession yet Chris Smalling's best period at the club came under LVG, despite ability on the ball being one of his main weaknesses.
We can generalise about the types of players who will/won't fit and be mostly right but there will be exceptions in both directions.
Thinking back to LVG's time, the assumption might have been that he would favour the CBs who were best in possession yet Chris Smalling's best period at the club came under LVG, despite ability on the ball being one of his main weaknesses.
We can generalise about the types of players who will/won't fit and be mostly right but there will be exceptions in both directions.
Its been usual for sometime now to look at the spine of the team, Keeper, CB, CM,CF, our problems (and any new managers) are obvious
DDG good 'shot-stopper,' but cannot play out, stays in six yard box, cannot act as sweeper
RV best CB in skill and football intelligence, but is injury prone and it wont get better
CM long time problems, some DM cover with Matic, but getting long in the tooth, Bruno and Pogba, both WC, on their day, but days are few and far between, neither plays box to box
CR on his day worlds best CF, but the days are getting less frequent and he adds nothing in terms of defending except at set pieces.
The new manager needs good and reliable players in these areas.
DDG good 'shot-stopper,' but cannot play out, stays in six yard box, cannot act as sweeper
RV best CB in skill and football intelligence, but is injury prone and it wont get better
CM long time problems, some DM cover with Matic, but getting long in the tooth, Bruno and Pogba, both WC, on their day, but days are few and far between, neither plays box to box
CR on his day worlds best CF, but the days are getting less frequent and he adds nothing in terms of defending except at set pieces.
The new manager needs good and reliable players in these areas.
Another example today why no player should be safe. I don’t care how good they can be at times, we’ve a squad littered with players that haven’t actually done it at United.
We need to let the next coach scorch earth & build whatever he wants at this point.
We need to let the next coach scorch earth & build whatever he wants at this point.
De Gea also costs us points with his weaknesses. It's not a coincidence that the two best teams in the league and probably europe have the profile of gk i'm talking about. If there was an easy fix for not having one that didn't compromise the system they wouldn't have bothered spending big money on Ederson and Alisson. Go and tell Pep and Klopp that it's BS because you must know something that they don't.
It's super easy to point at the ones who work and say it'll be the same at United. Before them you had the likes of Mignolet, Karius at LFC and Bravo at City who cost them so so dearly.
So if you wanna point to those as possible solutions, then you also should name that one goalie out there who are at their level and attainable we should sign. We can't spend everywhere and need improvements other places too. I don't see any obvious choices, hence it could easily cost us dearly to replace him with a Karius kind of guy.
I am not going to pretend that I am informed about the GK market and who the best up and coming ball playing sweeper keepers are, I don't have a clue. It's up to our scouts to find them. I didn't know anything about Ederson or Alison before they came to the prem as I don't follow those leagues. All I know is De Gea is going to be a problem in ETH's system and the club needs to be searching for our own Ederson/Alisson. If the club had informed ETH that he was the one a few months back maybe he could have had a word with Onana and convinced him to come here instead, that seems like a missed opportunity.
The point is that Ederson and Allison's are probably generational talents and there's just not many out there. For every Ederson and Allison you try out, there's gonna be failures so the succes rate will probably be less likely than 40% if we go by Liverpool and City's luck. With De Gea we know that we have a goalkeeper who has performed arguably the best in the league this season.
Onana is probably about Inter level and not more. (That's probably United's level too tbh,).
The point is if we are going to be idealistic about doing a make-over, it'll be a crappy make-over if the targets are just not the required level.
It will also be a crappy makeover if ETH has to make do with players that are totally unsuited to his system. If that's what is going to happen then we would have been better off going for a less idealistic manager like Pochettino instead.
De Gea can’t even get in the Spain squad ahead of keepers from Brighton and Brentford, yet United are talking about giving him another contract as one of the highest paid keepers in the world. It beggars belief.
I've been going back and forth on this, so much so that I don't really know what to think.
There are players here who've shown they can't be trusted. They've shown it for years. I wouldn't be sad to see the back of them tbh.
But I also remember our run to the European Cup win in 2008. We faced Barcelona in the semis, and I can't believe how bad Barca looked. The Rijkaard regime was on its last legs, and it showed. Barca looked shot to pieces, and short of confidence. They seemed to be just going through the motions. Iniesta, one of my favourite players to watch, was a shadow of himself. He got hooked before the end, and seeing him come off, he just didn't seem the same player.
But then, that summer, they hired Guardiola, binned the likes of Ronaldinho, Thuram, Zambrotta, brought back Pique, in Busquets etc., and the rest is history. Iniesta, Xavi, Messi, the very players who stunk out OT that very match, looked totally different. Was it the players, was it the manager? Was it the combination of both, something Rijkaard lost after '03 - '07? Or was it a critical mass of player, a toxic element, that had to go before performances could improve?
I'm asking because I don't know. I just hope the decision-makers at the club give Ten Hag a proper go in terms of support for his decisions. Otherwise, we are lost.
There are players here who've shown they can't be trusted. They've shown it for years. I wouldn't be sad to see the back of them tbh.
But I also remember our run to the European Cup win in 2008. We faced Barcelona in the semis, and I can't believe how bad Barca looked. The Rijkaard regime was on its last legs, and it showed. Barca looked shot to pieces, and short of confidence. They seemed to be just going through the motions. Iniesta, one of my favourite players to watch, was a shadow of himself. He got hooked before the end, and seeing him come off, he just didn't seem the same player.
But then, that summer, they hired Guardiola, binned the likes of Ronaldinho, Thuram, Zambrotta, brought back Pique, in Busquets etc., and the rest is history. Iniesta, Xavi, Messi, the very players who stunk out OT that very match, looked totally different. Was it the players, was it the manager? Was it the combination of both, something Rijkaard lost after '03 - '07? Or was it a critical mass of player, a toxic element, that had to go before performances could improve?
I'm asking because I don't know. I just hope the decision-makers at the club give Ten Hag a proper go in terms of support for his decisions. Otherwise, we are lost.
De Gea survived and prospered under LVG, why would he get dropped by ETH when he’s the only player who actually wins/saves us points on a regularly basis?
One thing people don’t take account about with the new trend of “footballing” goalkeepers, a lot of it depends on who they are passing too and the options made available to them. If our outfield players never having passing options, then it stands to reason that the goalkeeper has even less options.
One thing people don’t take account about with the new trend of “footballing” goalkeepers, a lot of it depends on who they are passing too and the options made available to them. If our outfield players never having passing options, then it stands to reason that the goalkeeper has even less options.
Pretty certain fans will lose patience with the 20 passes that lead to nothing in the early stages. Maybe first 3-7 months of that and low chance and goal scoring matches. Pretty certain within a month a two the pundits will be on tv after the match criticising the tactics “too many passes, get it forward quicker, it’s not the United way” etc and some fans at OT will be quick with the “attack attack….. attack attack attack “ chant. M
So to answer your question the appetite for change is big, but the belly to consume and digest everything needed for the change to happen is very small
I don’t have an emotional attachment to even one of these players. The new manager can sell the lot of them for all I care.
A side point, if those players are British does that make things harder with the inevitable media circus that surrounds United? I don't expect it can be easy for a manager.
I thought Rashford looked brighter today but as an example you only have to look at what Neville and some other pundits said about him last week: Has to leave, has to start, why isn't he playing etc.
I thought Rashford looked brighter today but as an example you only have to look at what Neville and some other pundits said about him last week: Has to leave, has to start, why isn't he playing etc.
But that's the thing about idealism or an insanely good manager like Klopp (Or Fergie). Idealism works if you have unlimited budgets like at City, to fulfill the beautiful idea, but in our case we have a limited amount of money and numerous places to reinforce.
So how are you going to be pragmatic and idealistic at the same time? You simply can't. You can't spend 40-50m on a GK, another 40-50m x 3 on other places where we need to reinforce. We're not gonna get any huge sum for Pogba, Ronaldo, Maguire, Matic, Wan Bissaka, Cavani, etc, who we need to replace somehow so it's not like we have major money incoming neither.
Sure it works on a forum to say: "Let's get a better goalkeeper who can play with his feet" - Sure, but on a forum everything's possible. In reality, way less things are possible in the market.
We have some highly talented young players on the cusp of breaking through so hopefully they can fill some of the positions and we won't have to buy everywhere. In addition to that we don't need to spend huge sums on every signing. You are talking about spending 40-50m on a GK, we could have got Onana on a free who was perfect for ETH system. There are opportunities in the market, the club needs to be smarter than they have been.
There are many other threads on here about how bad an idea it is to chop and change the team every time a new manager comes in. Wasn't the idea that we'd have technical people running the club and choosing a manager who fit the way we wanted to play, and the players we had.
That didn't last long, did it?
That didn't last long, did it?
rangnick is the first one ffs.
When he goes upstairs is when we should see some continuity. Although if we continue like this than gawd help us .
Ole and his playing staff knew we didn't have the personnel to go toe to toe with the best teams, so he set us up to defend and sit back in our own half and hit teams on the counter. And we got pretty good at it. Finishing 3rd and then 2nd last season, but we weren't close to challenging for the title. Then this summer came round and we made some decent signings, and Ole thought it was time to play in the oppositions half, to move our play much further forward, to dominate the procession and dictate the play.
Unfortunately, you can't do that when your midfield is Fred and McTominay. In any previous eras, these two would be squad players at best. We got bossed in midfield and teams started playing balls into the space behind. Suddenly Maguire is exposed, can't tackle, or keep up with someone running at our goal. In previous seasons this wasn't apparent, because he always man marked someone, almost sticking to them like glue. This is how he likes to defend, with one hand on the attackers back. He doesn't want people running at him with half a pitch of space in behind. Suddenly, we have a problem. This wasn't working, and we were getting torn apart in every game. This came to a head when Liverpool and City came to Old Trafford and players didn't know whether to press, hold, sit back, move forward. We were all over the place and Ole was rightly sacked. It was shambolic.
So then we brought someone in who does know how to organise and set up a team, who does now how to play against different styles, to adapt. And this is where we really got to see the actual measure of these players. You cannot fault the way that Rangnick has set up the team. He has tried to win games, but what is clearly evident for all to see, these players can't be bothered. Take today for example, Everton players won every second ball, every tackle, every header. This wasn't by luck or fortune, they wanted it more than us. It's about desire.
You can have a team 10 Messi's in their prime, and they would still get turned over by a championship side if they didn't put the effort in. You have to give everything you have in every game, and these players are not giving us that, and that is why most of them have to go. If it is Ten Hag in the summer, he needs to be given enough cash to bring in 5 or 6 players. And we don't need to blow the budget on Haaland's or Rice etc..
Look at what Liverpool do, they buy decent players for 30-40m, and they fit them into a system. Neves, Bisouma, Schick, Schlotterbeck... that's a whole new spine of team for about 130m. We don't need the shiniest, brightest names, we need hard working, honest and talented players who can be coached to play in a system. We've spent too many seasons buying big names who don't fit. We are like 4 different jigsaw puzzles in 1 box. We need to break this cycle and a build a team, not shirt sellers out for a pay day. We need to be brutal in the summer. Half the squad needs to go.
UTID
Unfortunately, you can't do that when your midfield is Fred and McTominay. In any previous eras, these two would be squad players at best. We got bossed in midfield and teams started playing balls into the space behind. Suddenly Maguire is exposed, can't tackle, or keep up with someone running at our goal. In previous seasons this wasn't apparent, because he always man marked someone, almost sticking to them like glue. This is how he likes to defend, with one hand on the attackers back. He doesn't want people running at him with half a pitch of space in behind. Suddenly, we have a problem. This wasn't working, and we were getting torn apart in every game. This came to a head when Liverpool and City came to Old Trafford and players didn't know whether to press, hold, sit back, move forward. We were all over the place and Ole was rightly sacked. It was shambolic.
So then we brought someone in who does know how to organise and set up a team, who does now how to play against different styles, to adapt. And this is where we really got to see the actual measure of these players. You cannot fault the way that Rangnick has set up the team. He has tried to win games, but what is clearly evident for all to see, these players can't be bothered. Take today for example, Everton players won every second ball, every tackle, every header. This wasn't by luck or fortune, they wanted it more than us. It's about desire.
You can have a team 10 Messi's in their prime, and they would still get turned over by a championship side if they didn't put the effort in. You have to give everything you have in every game, and these players are not giving us that, and that is why most of them have to go. If it is Ten Hag in the summer, he needs to be given enough cash to bring in 5 or 6 players. And we don't need to blow the budget on Haaland's or Rice etc..
Look at what Liverpool do, they buy decent players for 30-40m, and they fit them into a system. Neves, Bisouma, Schick, Schlotterbeck... that's a whole new spine of team for about 130m. We don't need the shiniest, brightest names, we need hard working, honest and talented players who can be coached to play in a system. We've spent too many seasons buying big names who don't fit. We are like 4 different jigsaw puzzles in 1 box. We need to break this cycle and a build a team, not shirt sellers out for a pay day. We need to be brutal in the summer. Half the squad needs to go.
UTID
Did Murtough left the club?
So who suits a Ten Haag system? The closest we have is Fred but he doesnt have the passing ability. Varane - injury prone and hasnt set the world alight for United. Sancho - hasnt done it for a full season but looks good. Lindelof who keeps getting benched and everyone says is not good enough.
Good luck Ten Haag!
Good luck Ten Haag!
Might be reading too much into it. But the possible anti ETH rhetoric has already started by some of the commentators. Hear lots of “United are playing too many passes” “play it more direct “ “they are overplaying”
Can imagine it’s only going to get worse the minute we’re drawing with 70 minutes played once/if ETH is in charge.