Are we willing to accept that "good" players who don't fit the manager's style of play need to be dropped?

Skills said:
You think Jurgen Klopp would've benched Ronaldo in his prime, just because he couldn't press from the front?
Click to expand...

We're not talking about Ronaldo in his prime. We're talking about current Ronaldo, who is a shadow of that player but still carries a reputation that makes dropping him a difficult decision.
 
sullydnl said:
Put it this way: imagine Klopp had inherited Ronaldo as a CF upon arriving at Liverpool. Do you think he would have abandoned his aggressive pressing approach to keep Ronaldo in the team? Or imagine Pep had inherited De Gea upon arriving at City. Do you think he would have given up on playing out from the back as he does because it didn't suit his goalkeeper?

Top managers can change things tactically, absolutely. But they tend to have some fundamental principles they don't compromise on.
Click to expand...

Klopp would have done whatever he thinks serves his team. For example he went from a gegenpress with a team that had around 50% possession to currently a nearly 60% possession team. I would be a fool to assume what Klopp would do if he rates a player as good.
 
sullydnl said:
We're not talking about Ronaldo in his prime. We're talking about current Ronaldo, who is a shadow of that player but still carries a reputation that makes dropping him a difficult decision.
Click to expand...

That's irrelevant because even a 30 year old Ronaldo wasn't running around pressing for shit.

So you think, Klopp is so inflexible he wouldn't have been able to accommodate that version of Ronaldo in his team?
 
Ronaldo should be a backup striker next season, and also shouldn't be playing against any team in the top 10 except maybe Spurs.
 
Random Task said:
I think, at this point, I'd be willing to accept whatever it takes to get this club to resemble even a semblance of what it used to be. I've no attachment to any particular player in the squad either, so I'm good with Ten Hag cleaning house if he sees fit.

Give him Carte Blanche, I say.
Click to expand...
How much money goes along with that Carte Blanche?
Replace De Gea?
Is Ten Hag just another manager who has to replace every player on the team?
 
Skills said:
That's irrelevant because even a 30 year old Ronaldo wasn't running around pressing for shit.

So you think, Klopp is so inflexible he wouldn't have been able to accommodate that version of Ronaldo in his team?
Click to expand...

Do I think he's so dedictated to his approach that he'd drop one of the greatest players of all time in his prime? No. Because that's almost as extreme an example of an exceptional player as you could find.

Do I think he'd make that same exception for the overwhelming majority of mortal players, including the current version of Ronaldo who has contributed 12 PL goals while being literally one of the worst pressing forwards in Europe? Also no.

And we don't have any such exceptional outliers in this squad.
 
Yes, and one of the first names I could see is Bruno. I don't know if he will be able to adapt.
 
Was expecting this to be a controversial thread until I saw the names mentioned being De Gea and Ronaldo, doesn't matter who the manager is a large section wouldn't want us to continue with either
 
Dr. Dwayne said:
If he's a good coach/manager shouldn't he be able to improve some of the players who don't appear to fit his style of play? That's what most of the critics on here have been saying for years: good managers improve players.

I think he would come in and assess their abilities, determine if he could work with them and then proceed. And he knows a hell of a lot more about it than any of us.
Click to expand...

100% disagree with this. Look at the player turnover of City and Liverpool when Klopp and Pep came in. They moved out most of their first starting 11. We have too many players that have lingered for years who should go. Finding 11 players that can play a system is better than having 11 decent players, which is effectively what we have now.
 
Roane said:
I think/hope a few players will be seen in a different light once a bit of proper coaching is involved/given.

I'm not a player fan, as in I can like a player but if he isn't doing the business the club comes first. However I sometimes watch a game and then come on here and see a player getting slated. Sometimes it's valid criticism but other times I see things different to what is being said.

I think coaching seems to be our biggest downfall rather than individual players. Not helped by buying players on what seems to be a random basis rather than a plan on how we should set up/play.
Click to expand...
We do reverse coaching here…..players come here and universally deteriorate
 
If it is ETH, I don't mind who he drops or plays. I want a Manager who is supported by the club; and the fans, to select the best team for their system.

I like De Gea; I don't think Henderson is better with his feet either, but if he was replaced for the good of team - so be it. Same goes for the rest of the team.
 
Josep Dowling said:
100% disagree with this. Look at the player turnover of City and Liverpool when Klopp and Pep came in. They moved out most of their first starting 11. We have too many players that have lingered for years who should go. Finding 11 players that can play a system is better than having 11 decent players, which is effectively what we have now.
Click to expand...

Yep, who even remained from the team under Rodgers when Liverpool won the CL? Firmino and Henderson, I don't remember anyone else.
 
sullydnl said:
Do I think he's so dedictated to his approach that he'd drop one of the greatest players of all time in his prime? No. Because that's almost as extreme an example of an exceptional player as you could find.

Do I think he'd make that same exception for the overwhelming majority of mortal players, including the current version of Ronaldo who has contributed 12 PL goals while being literally one of the worst pressing forwards in Europe? Also no.

And we don't have any such exceptional outliers in this squad.
Click to expand...

We do at the moment, because of the state of the rest of the squad.

Anyone who comes in, looks at the squad and decides the place to start the surgery is our goalkeeper and Ronaldo would quite frankly be an idiot considering the wide gaping hole we've got at RW, DM, CM & also potentially RB.

Yes, we definitely need a new kitchen & a refurbished bathroom. But feck me, the boilers broken, the roofs leaking & the front doors hanging off its hinges - so fix that first, and no tactics going to compensate for any of those even if you do get your new kitchen & bathroom.

What you're asking for us, is what we've repeatedly done for the last 10 years. Ignore where we're actually weak, and buy players for whatever idealogical trap we've fallen for under a new managerial regime.
 
charlenefan said:
Was expecting this to be a controversial thread until I saw the names mentioned being De Gea and Ronaldo, doesn't matter who the manager is a large section wouldn't want us to continue with either
Click to expand...

It could be any players really, whichever examples you think of yourself. I just used De Gea and Ronaldo as examples as they're the players I don't think fit who also have a certain amount of support on the forum and in the fanbase.

My question really was whether we have the appetite for those difficult calls, whatever form they happen to take. Both from the club's POV in terms of writing-off the money they've outlayed on them and from the fans' POV in terms of accepting that players you personally like and rate could still not suit the manager even while players you don't rate do.

Especially as every time a new manager is appointed there's a tendency towards posts like:

"[new manager] is great, such an improvement on [previous manager]. You can tell just from listening to him that he's [list of adjectives that didn't apply to previous manager]. He's finally going to get rid of dross like [all the players this particular poster doesn't like]"

Whereas I don't think things get put right just by making the sort of decisions that will be almost unanimously popular in that way.
 
I’d argue none of our players are good enough to not be dropped. Of the next manager doesn’t see them in his team then so be it. I’ve seen enough of a large part of this squad struggle under multiple managers, if it were possible to replace them easier Od say a parting of the ways with most of the squad would probably be for the best.

People will see a player like Shaw struggle at points under 3 [4 if we include this RR debacle] then defend his existence at the club over a purple patch. It’s players like him that need to be sent to Newcastle immediately.
 
Feels like the players have a bit too much power at Utd. It is probably because they don't need to perform well to get big fat contracts or be picked to play. I couldn't care less if they get upset.
 
sullydnl said:
They're very different players, not least in terms of their work rate off the ball.

The reality is that Ronaldo (despite having spent a good chunk of this season under a manager known for pressing) is still in the bottom 1% amongst forwards for pressures this season. Whereas in the limited data we have for Haller he's 71% and in his previous PL seasons he was in the 87th and 79th percent. There's a similar disparity in terms of the amount of tackles made. There's no way of swapping Haller out for someone who does almost as little in that regard as it's possible to find among Europe's strikers and keep the team functioning the same way.
Click to expand...

Out of possession I agree absolutely. I just meant in terms of us being in possession Ronaldo can still finish chances if we can create them for him. Like I said though if we get a good offer you take it otherwise you utilise him how and when you can for another 12 months. Coming on for 20-30 mins against tired legs or playing European games.
 
sullydnl said:
Put it this way: imagine Klopp had inherited Ronaldo as a CF upon arriving at Liverpool. Do you think he would have abandoned his aggressive pressing approach to keep Ronaldo in the team? Or imagine Pep had inherited De Gea upon arriving at City. Do you think he would have given up on playing out from the back as he does because it didn't suit his goalkeeper?

Top managers can change things tactically, absolutely. But they tend to have some fundamental principles they don't compromise on. And if players are obviously incompatible with that, they need to be ruthless.

Looking at our squad I don't see any way of getting this team into shape without some difficult calls having to be made. And I'm not sure to what extent people have the appetite for that.
Click to expand...

We will have to pick our battles as well. I don’t think de Gea is well suited to playing out but you can probably get away with it for another year if the trade off is say selling Maguire or AWB.

Currently we have this situation where De Gea, AWB, Maguire, Fred and McTominay are receiving passes and panicking. If we can replace 2-3 of those this year and the others later then so be it. Having a right back or centre back who can handle pressure helps De Gea out and vice versa if we swapped goalies first.
 
sullydnl said:
It could be any players really, whichever examples you think of yourself. I just used De Gea and Ronaldo as examples as they're the players I don't think fit who also have a certain amount of support on the forum and in the fanbase.

My question really was whether we have the appetite for those difficult calls, whatever form they happen to take. Both from the club's POV in terms of writing-off the money they've outlayed on them and from the fans' POV in terms of accepting that players you personally like and rate could still not suit the manager even while players you don't rate do.

Especially as every time a new manager is appointed there's a tendency towards posts like:

"[new manager] is great, such an improvement on [previous manager]. You can tell just from listening to him that he's [list of adjectives that didn't apply to previous manager]. He's finally going to get rid of dross like [all the players this particular poster doesn't like]"

Whereas I don't think things get put right just by making the sort of decisions that will be almost unanimously popular in that way.
Click to expand...

I do think the club have shown a willingness to move on players. Ole was allowed to sell Sanchez, Lukaku, Fellaini etc. I don’t think the club would stand in the way so long as we could recoup a decent fee. We have improved a little bit in our selling in recent years as well I think.
 
Dr. Dwayne said:
If he's a good coach/manager shouldn't he be able to improve some of the players who don't appear to fit his style of play? That's what most of the critics on here have been saying for years: good managers improve players.

I think he would come in and assess their abilities, determine if he could work with them and then proceed. And he knows a hell of a lot more about it than any of us.
Click to expand...
Definitely. And I’m sure he will. It would be both wonderful and hilarious if he could do it with McTominay.

Ronaldo isn’t going to change at 37 though. Sadly, I doubt De Gea is either. He resented the excellent work Franz Hoek was doing to turn him into a much more complete keeper six years ago; I expect he’s even more set in his ways now.
 
lads i know its not on same scale but when i went into youth coaching and coaching saturday league etc. One of the best pieces of advice i was giving was put your best players in their best positions and build a team that gets the best out of them regardless who the rest are.

At the moment we are purely just individuals. we have ronaldo up front get someone who takes a touch and crosses. we have bruno get midfielders who can work and get the ball to him. we have varane give a partner who he doesnt have to worry about.

we have became a club who signs players cause they sell merchandise.
 
Why not? We used to do it regularly under Fergie with the likes of van nistelroy, bekham, ince, almost Rooney and many others so why not now?
In the end the manager is the God he's the person whom success hinges on the most so we should definitely accommodate him as much as we can .

We are not real Madrid and any attempt to operate on the player centric format will go very very badly for us (hell it took long time for it to go right for them anyway)
 
If the new manager gets results with any player in the team, including the much-malined back four, nobody will care.
 
If the new manager doesn't rate any of this current lot I'm OK with that.
 
Offcourse. They are pro footballers and the manager has 30 players to chose from. Sometimes the more limited player fits in the system or the manager taylors the team to his strenghts. Can we honestly say Henderson could play for City? Or that there werent better midfielders than the ones who won the last two United PL's in 2011 and 2013?
 
Its impossible to burn the squad down and start over in one season. The manager has to pick and choose the most important positions he feels the need to upgrade from, and move from there. This is the reality every club operates under.

I don’t think we should sell De Gea if we don‘t end up signing more important positions. For me a striker, a CM and RB are more pressing. But if ETH or whoever the next manager is feels the GK position is more important than those, then that’s fair. The point is we need to pick and choose the most important positions and go from there. Expecting a complete revamp is not realistic.
 
Aguero wasn't Pep's cup of tea even with superior coaching and that's one of the greatest strikers in PL history. ETH uses comparable principles in his football so anyone who is expecting him to transform their favourite first teamer into a functional player might be in for a shock. He'll bin them and transform someone else who actually fits. For me half of our midfield and defense are built to sit deep and half our attackers can only run. Most of them are goners. If ETH succeeds we will look back at last week's starting lineup and it will feel like something from decades ago. Our striker are the biggest candidates to be axed. They don't do any linkup, something most philosophy manager will never accommodate in their football. Maybe someone can better enlighten me on what type of striker Ajax uses.
 
It already happened with LVG, cut quite a few that didn't fit his philosophy, same with mourinho and Ole to a certain extent. When a new manager comes in there will always be casualties and there are normally some marginalised players who will then shine and get back into the first team.

I think there will be quite a few natural departures this summer anyway so I doubt the new manager is really going to go wild with the axe anyway.
 
Bed an effective system in.
Get the players of best fit for that system.


2 ever so simple concepts, but oh so hard to action.

At least if Pogba is off the new man won't have to work out the impossible mission of playing him and Bruno in one midfield
 
Longshanks said:
It already happened with LVG, cut quite a few that didn't fit his philosophy, same with mourinho and Ole to a certain extent. When a new manager comes in there will always be casualties and there are normally some marginalised players who will then shine and get back into the first team.

I think there will be quite a few natural departures this summer anyway so I doubt the new manager is really going to go wild with the axe anyway.
Click to expand...

Sacked ever player who could play wide attack off, then moaned he had no wingers.
Plus integrated a system so dull, the talk after games would be of total shots, which was usually countable on one hand, with fingers spare.
 
We really should have let City sign Ronaldo in hindsight shouldn't we?
 
Sandikan said:
Sacked ever player who could play wide attack off, then moaned he had no wingers.
Plus integrated a system so dull, the talk after games would be of total shots, which was usually countable on one hand, with fingers spare.
Click to expand...

Ah the nostalgia! 6 shots 1 on target but 900 completed sideways passes. Let's hope ETH has a bit more bravery and less pragmatism.
 
Longshanks said:
Ah the nostalgia! 6 shots 1 on target but 900 completed sideways passes. Let's hope ETH has a bit more bravery and less pragmatism.
Click to expand...

The madness of trying to play Rooney, Falcao and Van Persie in the same line up, then by pure luck stumbling across a formation when 2 of the 3 were injured, that led us to that 4 or 5 match purple patch absolutely playing City and maybe Tottenham off the pitch.

That and the even briefer period of Di Maria looking magical were about as good as it ever got.
Though we did at least win an FA cup. But those are the thin lines of fate. Ole could easily have won a cup in the same way.
 
Could not care less who gets dropped. I have a fondness for Fred as he works hard and seems to have an innocence about him that the others lack but no issue if the new manager wants to off load him. As for the rest.....

It is absaloutely mission critical that the new manager has total control over the buying and selling of players both new and existing. If he doesn't have that, then it doesn't matter who we bring in as manager.

This is separate to having an unlimited budget. It is more important for the manager to sign who he wants within budget than for us to have an unlimited budget and buy players that the manager doesn't want.
 
Yes. In fact I'd give a manager more kudos if they came in and dropped some big name players and got a tune out of youth players or lesser favoured players. I'd know then that the manager has a clear vision and isn't bending their ideals to suit.

It would hurt a bit to see Sancho marginalised though as I think he's got the potential to be extremely good. I know that's probably an unpopular opinion right now but I think there's a hell of a lot of talent and football intelligence there to work with.
 
What will happen is Pogba Cavani Lingard and a few more with options will walk away and we will give a huge new contract to Rashford. Martial will also be back until he too walks on a free. Then how long until the “Rashford is confused about what the new manager wants from him” PR starts up again and Martial is walking around looking like someone at a funeral? You want to win leagues? You don’t do it with players amongst the absolute lowest work rate in the league and the worst body language ever seen in the shirt. You clear the decks and lay down a marker. I’m the manager anyone doesn’t want to work or be here come see me or I’ll be coming to see you. The board will dither and give out shite contracts and sign 2 or 3 players and keep the lazy leaking players and it won’t be enough. Then the players will start throwing the manager under the bus until they eventually stop playing for him altogether and get him fired. It’s another false Dawn unless the board change their ways
 
Blood Mage said:
We really should have let City sign Ronaldo in hindsight shouldn't we?
Click to expand...

We'd be about 13th now.

Perfectly fair to think Ronaldo might not suit a new manager's style of play and that his age means he shouldn't be a centrepiece of any team, but we've had about 50 separate problems and disasters this season and apart from sulking off for one game that he wasn't picked for anyway, he hasn't been one of them.

Biggest mistake this season was not replacing Ole at the end of last season, when his mismanagement was already clearly affecting the form and work ethic of half our squad. Instead we waited until everything had set on fire, burnt to the ground, and then the rubble had set on fire and burnt again, and then a massive landfill of shite had been dumped on top of it, and then that had been set on fire again...then replaced Ole and expected Rangnick to come in and just tidy everything up.

I don't think there is a style of play you can put together that suits this team, because so many of them have been mismanaged. Rangnick has a style of play and drops people who don't perform well in it....its not getting him anywhere because he can't field 11 or even 5-6 players who are actually up to it. They've all had their confidence shot to pieces multiple times over. Some like Maguire have been sent out to drown over and over. It's going to be a 2-3 year job I reckon.

I don't think people will mind players who don't perform well in a system being dropped. What rhey will mind is average players being picked because they do suit a system or style of play...but that's the only way we're going to get anywhere because we can't sign a whole new team.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.