Are we willing to accept that "good" players who don't fit the manager's style of play need to be dropped?

sullydnl

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"We" in this case being both the fans and the board. It's easy to point to dross who aren't good enough but there are also some tough decisions to be made on players who are in theory "good enough" but simply don't fit the new manager's set up.

From the fans POV, I'm thinking of two in particular here: Ronaldo and De Gea.

Neither are compatible with ETH's style of play, no ifs ands or buts. If either are starting, it's a crippling compromise to the set-up. But are people actually prepared to accept that both need to leave the first team for us to fully commit to that style of football? Because in both cases they have strident defenders as is.

And from the club's POV, you could add someone like AWB into the mix. Again, another player who simply isn't compatible with this style of football. Will they be willing to accept cutting their losses on the big investment they made on a young English player just a few years ago? Ditto someone like Maguire potentially, who they invested even more in.

That doesn't neccesarily mean all these problem players can or should be ditched this season. De Gea in particular I suspect will linger on for yet another year regardless. But do we think we'll actually be able to make the tough and (in some quarters) unpopular calls required to commit to a given style of play?

Or are we inevitably going to see ETH forced to compromise and keep these players involved, ludicrously trying to play a passing game in defence with someone like De Gea as a starter and a pressing game that has to work around Ronaldo?
 
I know I'm willing to accept it. Burn this squad to the ground and start again, I genuinely don't care about 99% of them so who is dropped/sold really doesn't bother me at this point.

Do I genuinely think we'll be that ruthless? No.
 
I think you’ll find De Gea and Ronaldo aren’t actually good players any more so there’s no problem there.
 
The only two first team players I'm baised towards and hoping they succeed are Fred and Varane. The rest, I couldnt care less about. I think that says a lot about the likeability of the squad. I hope the board feel the same way.
 
If he's a good coach/manager shouldn't he be able to improve some of the players who don't appear to fit his style of play? That's what most of the critics on here have been saying for years: good managers improve players.

I think he would come in and assess their abilities, determine if he could work with them and then proceed. And he knows a hell of a lot more about it than any of us.
 
If you’re going for a manager with such a clear vision and style then you’ve got to back his methods completely. We’re committing to a long term change in the way we play which could be painful in the short term because we don’t have the players to play that way. I think some of our players could be coached and improved but some will never ever get it.

I wouldn’t expect everyone who doesn’t fit the puzzle to be shipped out in 1 window but over the next 2 years, those players will need to be moved on, regardless of their reputation or who they are.

A brilliantly drilled team of 8/10 quality players will beat a badly coached team of 10/10 superstars over the course of a season.

We can only hope that Murtough and Arnold are more willing than Woodward ever was to make those tough decisions and make sales based on the benefit it brings to the team rather than the cash it brings in.
 
Ten Hag would need to make some concessions himself at the start, he's not going to have the squad he wants within the first couple of windows.

But, if we're really convinced that this is the guy then, yeah, we need to back the decisions he makes. Doesn't matter which noses he puts out of joint, it's all-in. Even if that meant eventually sidelining fans' favourites like Bruno.
 
A non-issue when you don't fill the basic pre-requisite of having good players.
 
It shouldn't be an issue, especially since literally no one in the squad has played so well as to be undroppable all season.

Ronaldo has been good in spurts but also had plenty of stinkers, especially in the second half of the season - he should probably be an impact sub / rotation player anyway. And De Gea should be out regardless of who the new manager is TBH.
 
sullydnl said:
"We" in this case being both the fans and the board. It's easy to point to dross who aren't good enough but there are also some tough decisions to be made on players who are in theory "good enough" but simply don't fit the new manager's set up.

From the fans POV, I'm thinking of two in particular here: Ronaldo and De Gea.

Neither are compatible with ETH's style of play, no ifs ands or buts. If either are starting, it's a crippling compromise to the set-up. But are people actually prepared to accept that both need to leave the first team for us to fully commit to that style of football? Because in both cases they have strident defenders as is.

And from the club's POV, you could add someone like AWB into the mix. Again, another player who simply isn't compatible with this style of football. Will they be willing to accept cutting their losses on the big investment they made on a young English player just a few years ago? Ditto someone like Maguire potentially, who they invested even more in.

That doesn't neccesarily mean all these problem players can or should be ditched this season. De Gea in particular I suspect will linger on for yet another year regardless. But do we think we'll actually be able to make the tough and (in some quarters) unpopular calls required to commit to a given style of play?

Or are we inevitably going to see ETH forced to compromise and keep these players involved, ludicrously trying to play a passing game in defence with someone like De Gea as a starter and a pressing game that has to work around Ronaldo?
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I certainly am willing to see the back of De Gea for this reason. Unless we get an offer worth taking for Ronaldo I don't see the point in pushing him out for the sake of one more season. That and I'm not convinced that Ronaldo wouldn't be useful either being used in the Haller role or as an option in certain games.

That being said I'm a big advocate of using the best player you have in the role you need. If you want an attacking full back then you play Dalot over AWB not because hes's perfect but because he is better going at the attacking side of the game. It's like England back in the day; just play your best left winger and let Scholes fight it out for central midfield.
 
Its the media that will have the problem, especially if those players are English, they’ll be slagging Ten Hah off like mad. I don’t think any of the fans will care especially after this season
 
de Gea has improved this season but I’ve still advocated for him to be replaced. He’s terrible with his feet and that is becoming more and more important.
 
Dr. Dwayne said:
If he's a good coach/manager shouldn't he be able to improve some of the players who don't appear to fit his style of play? That's what most of the critics on here have been saying for years: good managers improve players.

I think he would come in and assess their abilities, determine if he could work with them and then proceed. And he knows a hell of a lot more about it than any of us.
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I don't know if it's suggesting that he'd specifically turn AWB into an attacking fullback. However, I do think a good coach should be able to have us playing in such a way that hides our flaws and utilizes our strengths more effectively while unearthing squad players who've been misused or underappreciated.
 
L1nk said:
Its the media that will have the problem, especially if those players are English, they’ll be slagging Ten Hah off like mad. I don’t think any of the fans will care especially after this season
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Guardiola did it to Aguero and Joe Hart. They moan for a bit until you prove them wrong or they can point at a defeat and say it's because player x wasn't playing. It's like the weekend when Rashford didn't play. Rangnick is an idiot for not starting him etc yet Rashford showed off the bench he didn't deserve to play. The media just ignored that part and moved on.
 
I think/hope a few players will be seen in a different light once a bit of proper coaching is involved/given.

I'm not a player fan, as in I can like a player but if he isn't doing the business the club comes first. However I sometimes watch a game and then come on here and see a player getting slated. Sometimes it's valid criticism but other times I see things different to what is being said.

I think coaching seems to be our biggest downfall rather than individual players. Not helped by buying players on what seems to be a random basis rather than a plan on how we should set up/play.
 
I don't care who plays in the red shirt, I care the red shirts come out on top in the end and I am entertained.

Anything else and you might as well go watch tennis. Football is a team sport.
 
sullydnl said:
From the fans POV, I'm thinking of two in particular here: Ronaldo and De Gea.

Neither are compatible with ETH's style of play, no ifs ands or buts. If either are starting, it's a crippling compromise to the set-up. But are people actually prepared to accept that both need to leave the first team for us to fully commit to that style of football? Because in both cases they have strident defenders as is.
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I think both need to be moved on but DDG will end up on the bench because nobody is buying him or paying those wages. The key will be to resist the temptation to extend him and just let his contract run down next season and thank him for his service.

Ronaldo is different, I think he will want out and has the leverage and contacts to get a move if he wants one. I do take issue with him not suiting ETH's style of play and I would question how much of Ajax you have seen if you think that. If by some miracle ETH could get the rest of the side playing like Ajax then Cristiano would comfortably be the PL top scorer next season.
 
I think it’s a bit of both, we need players the manager wants to fit his style but he has to also try and improve some of the current players and make them fit his style… if he tries that and they still don’t fit into his style then he can sell them. I’ve got a feeling we’re going to struggle selling players again though just because of the wages they’ll be on. If we can get decent money for some of the players then there’s no reason why we can’t buy 5/6 players all in one window. Obviously everyone says it takes a few windows to get the squad you want but if we can get as many of the targets in one window then it helps by giving you more time to gel them all together rather then bit by bit. It’s going to be a very interesting and exciting summer for us all anyway to see what type of players were going to buy and who leaves and who stays.
 
sullydnl said:
"We" in this case being both the fans and the board. It's easy to point to dross who aren't good enough but there are also some tough decisions to be made on players who are in theory "good enough" but simply don't fit the new manager's set up.

From the fans POV, I'm thinking of two in particular here: Ronaldo and De Gea.

Neither are compatible with ETH's style of play, no ifs ands or buts. If either are starting, it's a crippling compromise to the set-up. But are people actually prepared to accept that both need to leave the first team for us to fully commit to that style of football? Because in both cases they have strident defenders as is.

And from the club's POV, you could add someone like AWB into the mix. Again, another player who simply isn't compatible with this style of football. Will they be willing to accept cutting their losses on the big investment they made on a young English player just a few years ago? Ditto someone like Maguire potentially, who they invested even more in.

That doesn't neccesarily mean all these problem players can or should be ditched this season. De Gea in particular I suspect will linger on for yet another year regardless. But do we think we'll actually be able to make the tough and (in some quarters) unpopular calls required to commit to a given style of play?

Or are we inevitably going to see ETH forced to compromise and keep these players involved, ludicrously trying to play a passing game in defence with someone like De Gea as a starter and a pressing game that has to work around Ronaldo?
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Who in our team are compatible to the style that you are talking about?
 
sparx99 said:
I certainly am willing to see the back of De Gea for this reason. Unless we get an offer worth taking for Ronaldo I don't see the point in pushing him out for the sake of one more season. That and I'm not convinced that Ronaldo wouldn't be useful either being used in the Haller role or as an option in certain games.

That being said I'm a big advocate of using the best player you have in the role you need. If you want an attacking full back then you play Dalot over AWB not because hes's perfect but because he is better going at the attacking side of the game. It's like England back in the day; just play your best left winger and let Scholes fight it out for central midfield.
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They're very different players, not least in terms of their work rate off the ball.

The reality is that Ronaldo (despite having spent a good chunk of this season under a manager known for pressing) is still in the bottom 1% amongst forwards for pressures this season. Whereas in the limited data we have for Haller he's 71% and in his previous PL seasons he was in the 87th and 79th percent. There's a similar disparity in terms of the amount of tackles made. There's no way of swapping Haller out for someone who does almost as little in that regard as it's possible to find among Europe's strikers and keep the team functioning the same way.
 
RedDevil@84 said:
Who in our team are compatible to the style that you are talking about?
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It's a good question, there aren't that many who are obvious natural fits.

But the players I mentioned in the OP (De Gea, Ronaldo and AWB) are actively antithetical to that style of play and the most glaring examples of players who don't fit.
 
Gandalf said:
I think both need to be moved on but DDG will end up on the bench because nobody is buying him or paying those wages. The key will be to resist the temptation to extend him and just let his contract run down next season and thank him for his service.

Ronaldo is different, I think he will want out and has the leverage and contacts to get a move if he wants one. I do take issue with him not suiting ETH's style of play and I would question how much of Ajax you have seen if you think that. If by some miracle ETH could get the rest of the side playing like Ajax then Cristiano would comfortably be the PL top scorer next season.
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As mentioned above, I've seen enough to know a striker with one of the worst statistical outputs in terms of off the ball work-rate in Europe definitely isn't a fit for the role currently occuppied by Haller in this Ajax side. Unless ETH changes his approach so that our CF doesn't have to do any of that work his current CF does, Ronaldo doesn't fit.
 
sullydnl said:
They're very different players, not least in terms of their work rate off the ball.

The reality is that Ronaldo (despite having spent a good chunk of this season under a manager known for pressing) is still in the bottom 1% amongst forwards for pressures this season. Whereas in the limited data we have for Haller he's 71% and in his previous PL seasons he was in the 87th and 79th percent. There's a similar disparity in terms of the amount of tackles made. There's no way of swapping Haller out for someone who does almost as little in that regard as it's possible to find among Europe's strikers and keep the team functioning the same way.
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The good thing is that ten Hag doesn't have one way to do things. He had Tadic and Huntelaar as strikers. While I get your point, it's important to remember that many good coaches aren't limited to one type of players even within a particular philosophy. Now I don't know if it will apply to our current players but the beauty of ten Hag is that we know that he isn't limited to one approach and one type of player.
 
sullydnl said:
As mentioned above, I've seen enough to know a striker with one of the worst statistical outputs in terms of off the ball work-rate in Europe definitely isn't a fit for the role currently occuppied by Haller in this Ajax side. Unless ETH changes his approach so that our CF doesn't have to do any of that work his current CF does, Ronaldo doesn't fit.
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Well that would be part of the point. ETH is not slavishly devoted to one particular style or tactical setup, that is what makes him the best choice as Poch and others linked with the job are pretty inflexible. Over his time at Ajax ETH has been able to get the best out of all manner of players by tweaking what his team does to maximize their contributions and I doubt it would be a struggle for him to do the same for Ronaldo. I do think we need to part with Ronaldo though because we don't need a band aid for one more season but a full reboot committed to a longer term plan and freeing up his wages and allowing room for a developing player in the side is more important than the individual goals Ronaldo would score.
 
Obviously yes, because trying to ram square pegs into round holes doesn't work and makes no one happy.

The next manager, be it ETH or someone else needs absolute authority to do things his way, any blockers need to be shipped out, regardless of who they are.
 
You'll always have to make due to what is available to you in the beginning. Liverpool and Klopp didn't just get Allison or VVD with a wave of their hand from the beginning. Impose and implement the standard you're trying to reach. There will those who can do it, those who are trying, and those who flat out cannot. Those who cannot have to be rid of asap.

EtH and the football operations will understand what is needed and who can stay and who must go, eventually. Build around the players you can trust and who can be the core of a team, while you tweak around the edge. If Henderson is selected by EtH over DDG, then fine. The players on the pitch will be selected by EtH. He's the manager, he gets the final say.
 
JPRouve said:
The good thing is that ten Hag doesn't have one way to do things. He had Tadic and Huntelaar as strikers. While I get your point, it's important to remember that many good coaches aren't limited to one type of players even within a particular philosophy. Now I don't know if it will apply to our current players but the beauty of ten Hag is that we know that he isn't limited to one approach and one type of player.
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Gandalf said:
Well that would be part of the point. ETH is not slavishly devoted to one particular style or tactical setup, that is what makes him the best choice as Poch and others linked with the job are pretty inflexible. Over his time at Ajax ETH has been able to get the best out of all manner of players by tweaking what his team does to maximize their contributions and I doubt it would be a struggle for him to do the same for Ronaldo. I do think we need to part with Ronaldo though because we don't need a band aid for one more season but a full reboot committed to a longer term plan and freeing up his wages and allowing room for a developing player in the side is more important than the individual goals Ronaldo would score.
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Agree with that to an extent, the way he used Tadic in that CL run suggests a certain degree of flexibility. It may well not be a Haller-style CF he opts for.

But nothing I've seen from this Ajax side suggests that a CF who offers as remarkably little as Ronaldo in that regard is the type of CF he would opt for instead. It would be a case of having to compromise the set-up to fit Ronaldo in, because I fundamentally don't believe a 37 year old forward who offers zilch in a pressing game suits any iteration of his approach, unless he's operated some version of that before he ever arrived at Ajax that I haven't seen.

He's tactically flexible but as far as I'm aware not that unprincipled.
 
I really hope he is prepared to make tough decisions, that's a key role for a manager. I'm prepared to support the manager 100%.
 
edcunited1878 said:
You'll always have to make due to what is available to you in the beginning. Liverpool and Klopp didn't just get Allison or VVD with a wave of their hand from the beginning. Impose and implement the standard you're trying to reach. There will those who can do it, those who are trying, and those who flat out cannot. Those who cannot have to be rid of asap.

EtH and the football operations will understand what is needed and who can stay and who must go, eventually. Build around the players you can trust and who can be the core of a team, while you tweak around the edge. If Henderson is selected by EtH over DDG, then fine. The players on the pitch will be selected by EtH. He's the manager, he gets the final say.
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And even if you extend things, Klopp's tactical approach and the players that he has favored at Liverpool are almost completely different to the players and the tactical approach that he favored at Dortmund. Good coaches want good players and they figure the rest out.
 
JPRouve said:
And even if you extend things, Klopp's tactical approach and the players that he has favored at Liverpool are almost completely different to the players and the tactical approach that he favored at Dortmund. Good coaches want good players and they figure the rest out.
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This is correct.

Manchester United are nowhere near rich or desirable enough to control the transfer market. We need to be smart, and sign good players, for good money when they become available and then expect or hire coaches who can get the best out of them.

We need to get away from this stupid idea of getting specific players for ideological reasons - that's what made Harry Maguire the most expensive defender in the world.
 
sparx99 said:
I don't know if it's suggesting that he'd specifically turn AWB into an attacking fullback. However, I do think a good coach should be able to have us playing in such a way that hides our flaws and utilizes our strengths more effectively while unearthing squad players who've been misused or underappreciated.
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Yes, that's fair and something that a good coach should be able to do as well.
 
edcunited1878 said:
You'll always have to make due to what is available to you in the beginning. Liverpool and Klopp didn't just get Allison or VVD with a wave of their hand from the beginning. Impose and implement the standard you're trying to reach. There will those who can do it, those who are trying, and those who flat out cannot. Those who cannot have to be rid of asap.

EtH and the football operations will understand what is needed and who can stay and who must go, eventually. Build around the players you can trust and who can be the core of a team, while you tweak around the edge. If Henderson is selected by EtH over DDG, then fine. The players on the pitch will be selected by EtH. He's the manager, he gets the final say.
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No but he did quickly drop Benteke as he didn't fit, seeing their then second-most expensive signing of all time sold after just one season. Would our club countenance ETH binning off big buys like AWB or Maguire almost immediately upon taking over?

Or looking at City, fan-favourite Joe Hart was quickly dismissed as he didn't fit the style of play. How willingly would the fans who still insist that De Gea is one of the best goalkeepers around despite his inability to play that type of football accept him being dealt with similarly decisively?

Broadly my point is that if we're really committing to a cohesive style of play, we have to accept that players we might generally like will in some cases be more at risk than others we don't rate as much. And from the club's POV, that they'll have to cut their losses on some players they invested big money in relatively recently. It can't just be making the easy choices.
 
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JPRouve said:
And even if you extend things, Klopp's tactical approach and the players that he has favored at Liverpool are almost completely different to the players and the tactical approach that he favored at Dortmund. Good coaches want good players and they figure the rest out.
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Agreed, yes. Klopp and any good manager will adjust to their surroundings and what they have at their disposal. As long as they are good players in every facet they need in relation to the pitch, they figure it out as you said.
 
I think, at this point, I'd be willing to accept whatever it takes to get this club to resemble even a semblance of what it used to be. I've no attachment to any particular player in the squad either, so I'm good with Ten Hag cleaning house if he sees fit.

Give him Carte Blanche, I say.
 
sullydnl said:
Agree with that to an extent, the way he used Tadic in that CL run suggests a certain degree of flexibility. It may well not be a Haller-style CF he opts for.

But nothing I've seen from this Ajax side suggests that a CF who offers as remarkably little as Ronaldo in that regard is the type of CF he would opt for instead. It would be a case of having to compromise the set-up to fit Ronaldo in, because I fundamentally don't believe a 37 year old forward who offers zilch in a pressing game suits any iteration of his approach, unless he's operated some version of that before he ever arrived at Ajax that I haven't seen.

He's tactically flexible but as far as I'm aware not that unprincipled.
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But in this case, the principle that you are focusing on is clearly not shared by ETH because when it comes to pressures, Tadic is in the bottom 10 percentile, Huntelaar is average and Haller is in the top third. The logical conclusion is that it's not a big deal for him when it comes to that position in isolation.

Now we can easily guess that it's due to how he combined these different players with their teammates. If you look at the players behind them, you should notice that their type differs from Ziyech, Van De Beek to Klaasen. I think that we need to look at things in a broader way in order to understand what he may want or need. For example at United what would be the role of Bruno Fernandes, at the moment he is a high pressure rate player, I could see him play the role that Tadic played with Van De Beek or an upgrade on Van De Beek behind him but I could also see a poacher or a more technical striker that has nothing to do with Haller while Bruno is the one playing a similar role to Van De Beek.
 
sullydnl said:
No but he did quickly drop Benteke as he didn't fit, seeing their then second-most expensive signing of all time sold after just one season. Would our club countenance ETH binning off big buys like AWB or Maguire almost immediately?

Or looking at City, fan-favourite Joe Hart was quickly dismissed as he didn't fit the style of play. How willing would the fans who still insist that De Gea is one of the best goalkeepers around despite his inability to play that type of football accept him being dealt with similarly decisively?

Broadly my point is that if we're really committing to a cohesive style of play, we have to accept that players we might generally like will in some cases be more at risk than others we don't rate as much. And from the club's POV, that they'll have to cut their losses on some players they invested big money in relatively recently. It can't just be making the easy choices.
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Only a few players have security at the club. Varane, Sancho, Fred, Bruno. Maybe Lindelof, Garner, Elanga.

The club has to be ruthless and think we've seen that the past few years. And it's not easy to offload these players, need to persist unfortunately but just manage the situation like Jones, Mata, Pereira.

There are fan favorites like Ronaldo and DDG who aren't suited to the team as much as we/they want to accept, especially where the club is trying to go. Having those honest assessments isn't always easy, but they have to be done with the club first and foremost in mind.
 
JPRouve said:
And even if you extend things, Klopp's tactical approach and the players that he has favored at Liverpool are almost completely different to the players and the tactical approach that he favored at Dortmund. Good coaches want good players and they figure the rest out.
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Put it this way: imagine Klopp had inherited Ronaldo as a CF upon arriving at Liverpool. Do you think he would have abandoned his aggressive pressing approach to keep Ronaldo in the team? Or imagine Pep had inherited De Gea upon arriving at City. Do you think he would have given up on playing out from the back as he does because it didn't suit his goalkeeper?

Top managers can change things tactically, absolutely. But they tend to have some fundamental principles they don't compromise on. And if players are obviously incompatible with that, they need to be ruthless.

Looking at our squad I don't see any way of getting this team into shape without some difficult calls having to be made. And I'm not sure to what extent people have the appetite for that.
 
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hobbers said:
If you're okay with spending £60m on another keeper then sure.
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It doesn't need to be that much and that's where it is so crucial to have an idea of what is needed in players for certain positions to identify, scout, and recruit efficiently. Mendy wasn't that much and he's improve Chelsea a lot, even if Kepa is the most overrated and expensive GK in world football history.
 
sullydnl said:
Put it this way: imagine Klopp had inherited Ronaldo as a CF upon arriving at Liverpool. Do you think he would have abandoned his aggressive pressing approach to keep Ronaldo in the team?
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You think Jurgen Klopp would've benched Ronaldo in his prime, just because he couldn't press from the front?
 
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