Well said
Are we (United fans) part of the problem...?
- Thread starter Ken Barlow
- Start date
Well said
We have amazing fans through the shit of the recent past.
Would also take any of our managers we have had since the 1980s ahead of Ten Fraud.
Would also take any of our managers we have had since the 1980s ahead of Ten Fraud.
Maybe we are. But what else do you expect?
It's the end result of Fergie saying "if you don't like it, f**k off and watch Chelsea" before a Champions League qualifier in 2005.
It's the end result of people trying to get protests going in the aftermath of the takeover and being laughed at, mocked and even physically assaulted by the likes of Tony O'Neil (a former hooligan who weirdly backed the club over his fellow fans in 2005.)
It's the end result of proteststers being banned from the ground.
It's the end result of football being gentrified by the likes of Sky.
It's the end result of price hikes, automatic cup schemes and prioritising hospitality packages over ordinary fans.
The ones that are left are still United. Their love of the club will never wane and they are entitled to support the club in whichever way they see fit.
As I said further up, unless you did anything to try and stop (as pointless as it may have been) these issues from doing what everyone warned us about in May 2005, you can't accuse anyone of being too tolerable.
You left to support FC United, we're still here. I can't take this rant seriously.
So if you don't think the fans should boo, but you also don't think we should be clapping after a performance like that, then what should we do? I don't know if you've ever been to a game before, but there's no middle ground between clapping the players off the pitch and booing them. Fans don't just stand there silently glaring at the players with a look of 'I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed'.
Ask yourself with other fanbase, who considers their club among “the biggest in the world”, would tolerate relegation form, absolutely terrible performances and being constantly destroyed by our rivals
The main issue for me is the one size fits all approach some of our fans seem to take and the “he needs time/three year project” attitude. If we hire Klopp or Ancelotti, then they deserve a fair bit of patience to implement their vision as they are both proven at the highest level. The same principle applied (with reservations) to LVG and Jose. If, on the other hand, we give someone a first shot at the big time from the Dutch league, then the onus is very much on that manager to hit the ground running and prove on an ongoing basis that he’s good enough to cope in the premier league with United. If things are going wrong (as they started to in March 2023 before completely falling apart in the 23-24 season), then we don’t need to keep giving the benefit of the doubt or strive to find all manner of excuses before we agree that a change of manager is in order.
I get to the odd game now and again, usually in the Stretford end.
So there are only two options? It's pretty obvious that there is an initial boo for the performance from a large part of the crowd upon the final whistle being blown. Most people just shuffle out and talk among themselves. There are shouts and songs from others and everyone is entitled to their own form of expression.
Why shouldn't someone be allowed to boo? It shouldn't interfere with your own ideas of unwavering loyalty.
Personally, I have never booed at a game. I always sing until my voice goes hoarse anyway.
I don't get to many games so I give my full support when I do.
If I had witnessed that spurs performance and the Scouse one I would have just left without clapping a poor performance.
I feel like it’s the opposite no? If you get Kloop or Ancellotti you want them to hit the ground running given what they’ve won and accomplished. But a smaller coach surely needs more time to settle and implement their system?
Oh we absolutely are. I remember having a heated argument with one of my best friends over Ten Hag. He was adamant that the problem was the players and the FA cup win felt like a vindication for him. After INEOS failed to sack him he actually changed his WhatsApp profile picture to Ten Hags photo because he knew it would annoy me every time I saw. It's actually insane how much support ETH got after that FA cup final given that 2 weeks prior the majority of the fanbase wanted him gone.
We as Man Utd fans are the worst set of fans there are of a big club because not only do we not know how to properly support our players( we declare any new signing bad as soon as they don't meet up to our unrealistic expectations - See Ugarte and Zirzkee) and never extend that same level of scrutiny to our managers instead letting them stink the place up.
I hope this ETH debacle may teach this fanbase a bitter lesson but I sincerely doubt it will.
We as Man Utd fans are the worst set of fans there are of a big club because not only do we not know how to properly support our players( we declare any new signing bad as soon as they don't meet up to our unrealistic expectations - See Ugarte and Zirzkee) and never extend that same level of scrutiny to our managers instead letting them stink the place up.
I hope this ETH debacle may teach this fanbase a bitter lesson but I sincerely doubt it will.
A manager from a smaller club would need time to acclimatise to all the off-field media circus that surrounds United but I would expect progress on the pitch. What I meant to convey with the Klopp/Carlo example is that, while you’d hope an elite manager like those two would have a short-term impact, if there is a rocky period in the first few years, you can reasonably write it off as teething problems before the march to trophies (no guarantees of course). If David Moyes or Erik ten Hag start hitting the rocks, then maybe the more obvious explanation is that they are not good enough to make that step up.
Well, it's clear that nobody who's posted already think they are part of the problem.
It must be the others who support the club differently. Damn those others.
This is probably one of the crappest opinions I've read on here though, and there's been some stiff competition over the years.
It must be the others who support the club differently. Damn those others.
This is probably one of the crappest opinions I've read on here though, and there's been some stiff competition over the years.
Yes.
That petition to keep Ten Hag after the FA cup was an embarrassment. The applauding of managers at the end of a game after we've been twatted is embarrassing too. Those people have some sort of superiority complex and think that sort of blind support makes them look like better fans. It doesn't. It makes you look like morons. Whilst you're clapping and cheering failure and boasting about not waving white handkerchiefs like Madrid fans, they're busy winning trophies and being the envy of the footballing world.
That petition to keep Ten Hag after the FA cup was an embarrassment. The applauding of managers at the end of a game after we've been twatted is embarrassing too. Those people have some sort of superiority complex and think that sort of blind support makes them look like better fans. It doesn't. It makes you look like morons. Whilst you're clapping and cheering failure and boasting about not waving white handkerchiefs like Madrid fans, they're busy winning trophies and being the envy of the footballing world.
I think at any top club, you don't need nearly as much time as some think to actual see signficant progress and results, much less going BACKWARDS like we've done. "Projects" don't really belong at big clubs, Arsenal was a huge outlier in that Arteta wasn't getting results and then it turned around in a major way. Most of the time you'll see big jumps in the second year of a manager's reign.
For what it's worth, I have no doubt a more toxic fanbase at OT would have expedited ETH's sacking. However if that would be a good thing.
Is this thread for real?!I have never visited the rawk forum and I don't know if they have a "meltdown" thread like us.But I they don't and if we continue like this here in the caf.They should definitely start one.
Ironically the 5 years after the Glazers took over was the most successful period in the clubs history and the best European form in the clubs history.
I wouldn't say we're a problem but we are what fans of clubs are across the board - emotional, ill-equipped to critically assess our own clubs and tribal.
Case in point, the man who has spoken most sense about United under EtH is Jamie Carragher. He's not invested, as fans like Keane, Scholes, Neville and us Caftards are, he sees this madness for what it is.
Problem is, we're desperate, we're so eager for something to cling to that somehow fluking an FA Cup win (a trophy we once almost dismissed) bewildered some of us again into believing this crazed, zealot-like mad man of a "coach" can improve this team.
Case in point, the man who has spoken most sense about United under EtH is Jamie Carragher. He's not invested, as fans like Keane, Scholes, Neville and us Caftards are, he sees this madness for what it is.
Problem is, we're desperate, we're so eager for something to cling to that somehow fluking an FA Cup win (a trophy we once almost dismissed) bewildered some of us again into believing this crazed, zealot-like mad man of a "coach" can improve this team.
For a club supposed to be one of the biggest we love to give our managers time and very reachable goals. We are absolutely co pilots in this ongoing soap. That 7-0 drubbing would have spelled the end of ETH managerial stint at any of our big club rivals with the fan base going absolutely beserk. But here we are going on 3 whole seasons with no improvements anywhere in sight.
So those who were not present during the above events are not considered real fans then. Should have bought flight tickets out of South Africa and New Zealand on those occasions to show my support. This post is an insult to the club's fanbase not based in greater Manchester.
Funny thing is, that level of blind support only applies to managers. The fans calling to back the manager no matter what are usually the first ones to call for mass squad clearouts and to get rid of assistant coaches / positional coaches who are "letting the manager down".
Define tolerate? What do you suggest the support do and what would supports of other clubs do if it happened?
I still remember the vitriol Pogba received at Old Trafford after (I think) the last game at home to Cardiff in the 18/19 season despite:
I only see one problem that our fanbase has contributed to and that is that every next manager we appoint is going to be the next SAF.
Up until now, every single manager we've appointed has been treated like the next SAF. We've always given them the benefit of the doubt when results weren't showing citing that every manager needs more time to implement his playstyle and change things around. At the root this stems from the fact that SAF was under immense pressure in 1990 and the time he as offered to turn things around made us the successful club we currently now.
However, times have changed dramatically. As we've seen, the only thing time affords is having our season written off.
What we can do as a fanabase is to stop hopping that every next manager is somehow going to be the next SAF, Pep, Klopp or Arteta, and instead focus on a manager that can improve our situation for the next 2-3 years. And then sack him and appoint a new manager if the results aren't coming. This holier than thou attitude has gotten us into plenty of toxic relationships with our managers. Instead of cutting ties when it's clear as day that the relationship is not working out, we persist in hopes that the manager is going to somehow change his way and come good.
Up until know, thanks to the Glazer leeches who haven't built a footballing structure, we couldn't do that. We had to rely on our manager's football knowledge, because our higher ups weren't footballing people. This resulted in the manager getting more power than he should. But now that we have a competent DoF and a good technical director, we can afford to hire a manager and if he is not good enough, let him go. Rinse and repeat until we find a suitable on.
Up until now, every single manager we've appointed has been treated like the next SAF. We've always given them the benefit of the doubt when results weren't showing citing that every manager needs more time to implement his playstyle and change things around. At the root this stems from the fact that SAF was under immense pressure in 1990 and the time he as offered to turn things around made us the successful club we currently now.
However, times have changed dramatically. As we've seen, the only thing time affords is having our season written off.
What we can do as a fanabase is to stop hopping that every next manager is somehow going to be the next SAF, Pep, Klopp or Arteta, and instead focus on a manager that can improve our situation for the next 2-3 years. And then sack him and appoint a new manager if the results aren't coming. This holier than thou attitude has gotten us into plenty of toxic relationships with our managers. Instead of cutting ties when it's clear as day that the relationship is not working out, we persist in hopes that the manager is going to somehow change his way and come good.
Up until know, thanks to the Glazer leeches who haven't built a footballing structure, we couldn't do that. We had to rely on our manager's football knowledge, because our higher ups weren't footballing people. This resulted in the manager getting more power than he should. But now that we have a competent DoF and a good technical director, we can afford to hire a manager and if he is not good enough, let him go. Rinse and repeat until we find a suitable on.
Did you actually read my post?
My issue is people who did nothing to protest the current issues between 2005 and 2021 are now criticising others for just supporting their team.
Unless you were involved in any of what happened in that time, you have zero right to question anyone. I couldn't care less where people are from.
the fans who think the fans are part of the problem are the problem
Yes, of course. You still see fans romantacising numerous failed regimes. It's bonkers.
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Imagine Ole had of won that EL......
No one has said to back no matter what.
There's valid points on both ends but all in all so much of the decisions concerning football happen in corporate environments and among board settings.
The common individual (fan) cannot influence those state of affairs without detrimental levels of extremity at either commercial / revenue levels, if fans stopped attending games it has a catastrophic affect but this isn't realistic given the sentimentality and emotion of supporting a team. In many ways it's perverse of actually supporting a club.
Then the other extremity is a legislative issue and that's commemorating violence, this has proven successful at other clubs in very conditional circumstances reinforcing changes but in no way shape or form can it be said to be a positive catalyst for change.
So all in all fans have very little capacity to do anything substantive without breaking the law or denying their own plausibility to support the club of their choice.
The common individual (fan) cannot influence those state of affairs without detrimental levels of extremity at either commercial / revenue levels, if fans stopped attending games it has a catastrophic affect but this isn't realistic given the sentimentality and emotion of supporting a team. In many ways it's perverse of actually supporting a club.
Then the other extremity is a legislative issue and that's commemorating violence, this has proven successful at other clubs in very conditional circumstances reinforcing changes but in no way shape or form can it be said to be a positive catalyst for change.
So all in all fans have very little capacity to do anything substantive without breaking the law or denying their own plausibility to support the club of their choice.
I actually think most United fans are now accepting of where we are and have been for years. Whenever we restart, we have been relatively patient with the first couple of years of a manager's tenure - in some instances thinking it was the moment to really kick on and then the transfer window was extremely lacklustre.
I actually think it's more the media, pundits, and maybe opposition fans building things up. Everyone says because we're a huge club we have to be winning, but there's been plenty of times where a team dominates of a decade then the tide changes. The SAF days are still not further enough in the past and it's City's time right now. We had a longer period than most teams manage in a consistent spell, 20 years realistically where we where there or at least in the argument for the title until the last month or two which is incredibly difficult to do (13/20 titles and never finished lower than third).
I said it in another thread, but in Spain, Germany, France, maybe Italy to a degree, the biggest team can fall into a transitional period and still win some league titles in that time. I don't think you can do that in the Premier League.
I actually think it's more the media, pundits, and maybe opposition fans building things up. Everyone says because we're a huge club we have to be winning, but there's been plenty of times where a team dominates of a decade then the tide changes. The SAF days are still not further enough in the past and it's City's time right now. We had a longer period than most teams manage in a consistent spell, 20 years realistically where we where there or at least in the argument for the title until the last month or two which is incredibly difficult to do (13/20 titles and never finished lower than third).
I said it in another thread, but in Spain, Germany, France, maybe Italy to a degree, the biggest team can fall into a transitional period and still win some league titles in that time. I don't think you can do that in the Premier League.
Starts by castigating the fanbase supporting a trophy and ends by demanding we be more like a team who win trophies.
I don't watch United to win all the time. I watch United for the same reason you do, Andy: escapism.
Escape from the 'dog eat dog nice guy's finish last win at all costs' mentality which manifests itself in the likes of Johnson and Trump.
Calling your own 'morons' whilst simultaneously sniping about others' 'superiority complex'. Getting nasty and nastier, projecting your own weaknesses as virtue.
'So much winning'? No thanks.
So yeah, hang me, but even if we are bottom of the entire pyramid and the laughing stock of the universe, I'll stay to the end and clap my team off.
"Are we (United fans) part of the problem...?". No.
Fair enough. My apologies I misread your post
It almost feels like the great man was wasted on this fanbase if there two takeaways from his time here were:
A) He ended up being good because he was given time
B) Literally any manager can do what he did given enough time
Rather than appreciating how unique he was and that only a handful of managers in the history of the game are ever likely to come close to the level he was at.
Indirectly yes. Most of us still live in Fergie dreamland and look for the greater cause that is not there anymore. Just look at those who would take Ole back or want Ruud because he used to be an amazing player for us 15 years ago
How did we go from 'sack ten hag' to arewethebaddies.gif ?
If the manager doesn't work out, find another one. It's like that in all clubs in the world of football. We're not special.
If the manager doesn't work out, find another one. It's like that in all clubs in the world of football. We're not special.
This illusion that the fans have any impact on decision making at the highest levels of the club needs to end.
Blame? No. I do think there are lessons to be learned though, for all concerned. What has fed our decline has been the denial of the obvious. The insisting a struggling manager simply needs more time, or an average player is top class because he has a decent game within recent memory.
I do think fans in some sense help the perception that it's the little boy pointing out the Emperor who is the bad guy. That if only we got behind the manager and pretend 8th didn't happen, things would get better.
There's a balance between being hysterical reactionaries and refusing to acknowledge a problem out of a fear you might come across as a lesser fan because of it. I would like maybe to see more fan pressure on managers before it gets to the stage of undeniable disaster, which by then has likely already rendered the rest of the season a write off. I think that might be an influence on those in charge.
I do think fans in some sense help the perception that it's the little boy pointing out the Emperor who is the bad guy. That if only we got behind the manager and pretend 8th didn't happen, things would get better.
There's a balance between being hysterical reactionaries and refusing to acknowledge a problem out of a fear you might come across as a lesser fan because of it. I would like maybe to see more fan pressure on managers before it gets to the stage of undeniable disaster, which by then has likely already rendered the rest of the season a write off. I think that might be an influence on those in charge.
Probably not, but fans booing pass that isn't forwards, or groaning at every bad touch, don't help the situation.